Last Year, The Flu Put Him In A Coma. This Year He's Getting The Shot

[ehrnst]

A healthy, 39 year old man:

The flu nearly killed me. I spent 58 days in the hospital and 21 days in a skilled nursing facility (aka a nursing home). I was fortunate that I will make a full recovery. I don’t recommend my experience. Get a flu shot.

Link to tweet

Full story:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/10/14/656290155/last-year-the-flu-put-him-in-a-coma-this-year-hes-getting-the-shot

[johnp3907]

1. But some rapper said don't get a flu shot!

[zanana1]

2. I got my flu shot last Tuesday.

Came down with the flu on Thursday. It's still hanging on. Usually, I'll eat anything that isn't moving. Now I can't stomach the idea of chicken soup.

[LuvNewcastle]

6. I always get sick after getting a flu shot.

That's why I don't always get one. I've never gotten a bad case of flu, though. Usually I'll get the shot if they say it's going to be a bad year, or if there's a new strain going around. It is still a very deadly virus, though, and shouldn't be thought of as a bad cold. Millions have died from it.

[DownriverDem]

13. Got flu shot then

During the holidays I got really sick. So did my husband who didn't get a flu shot. The Nurses Association comes to where I work. I think I'll get one, but sure hope it's strong enough.

[meow2u3]

14. That's just a side effect of the flu shot

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/general.htm

Do flu vaccines cause any side effects?

Like any medical product, vaccines can cause side effects. Side effects of the flu vaccine are generally mild and go away on their own within a few days.

Common side effects from the flu shot include:

Soreness, redness, and/or swelling from the shot
Headache
Fever
Nausea
Muscle aches

The flu shot, like other injections, can occasionally cause fainting.

Some studies have found a possible small association of injectable flu vaccine with Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS). Overall, these studies estimated the risk for GBS after vaccination as fewer than 1 or 2 cases of GBS per one million people vaccinated. Other studies have not found any association. GBS also, rarely, occurs after flu illness. Even though GBS following flu illness is rare, GBS is more common following flu illness than following flu vaccination. GBS has not been associated with the nasal spray vaccine.

[KT2000]

55. that is just your immune system

getting activated by the shot - not a viral infection though.

[Omaha Steve]

3. Got my shot a month ago

K&R!

OS

[panfluteman]

4. I Won't Get a Flu Shot - Not This Nor Any Other Year.

Because a serum antibody screening test for dental materials revealed that I have an adverse immunological reaction to Mercury (I had 33 Mercury amalgam fillings in my mouth before I had them all taken out and replaced with plastic composite resin fillings in my 30s) and Thimerosal, the Mercury based preservative and catalyst used in most vaccines. And by the way, I do suffer from an autism spectrum disorder - and I don't think that the two are an unrelated coincidence. Luckily, I have natural alternatives that work quite well for the flu: the homeopathic remedy Oscillococcinum, which is available in many pharmacies and most health food stores, and Yin Qiao San, a Chinese herbal patent medicine, otherwise known as Lonicera and Forsythia Formula.

[ehrnst]

7. You do know that the Autism/vaccine link has been debunked, right?

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/committee/topics/mmr/mmr_autism/en/

And people like you who can't get the vaccine (even if you wanted to...) are protected from getting a life threatening illness when people around you are vaccinated.

You're welcome.

[panfluteman]

19. I don't think that debunking is objective and impartial,

Not when vaccinations form such a large part of a pediatrician's practice - without vaccinations, most pediatricians would be unemployed. Now, since adverse immunological reactions to Thimerosal can be objectively screened and tested, as my dental materials biocompatibility test so clearly shows, I think that it is only legally fair and right, and in conformity with the democratic principles upon which our country was founded, to give people and their legal guardians the right to opt out of vaccinations pending the finding of an adverse immunological reaction to Thimerosal, the toxic, Mercury containing ingredient in vaccines. The finding in my case was unexpected, but it just so happened to be an included substance that they screened for in their dental materials biocompatibility test. Even though I understand your point about having a potentially life threatening condition that can be communicated to others, who might be more immunologically weakened and vulnerable than oneself, I still, where matters of medicine and health are concerned, believe in the primacy of the individual's right to decide what will be put into their bodies, and what will not. In that sense, I wholeheartedly support the view of Dr. Benjamin Rush, a signer of the Constitution and George Washington's personal physician, that an amendment guaranteeing medical freedom should have been put into the Bill of Rights.

I think that the profit driven medical profession, as it exists today, is inherently incapable of doing a totally objective and unbiased assessment of vaccines.

[cvoogt]

28. pediatricians are among the lowest-paid doctors

If they chose another branch of medicine they'd make a good deal more money. Most are in pediatrics because they want to work with kids and families. Sorry to hear of your allergy.

[Act_of_Reparation]

29. Know what's awesome?

Working in a medical subspecialty that typically operates at a loss just to have some anonymous armchair internet commando call you a greedy liar.

[ehrnst]

34. "Without vaccinations, most pediatricians would be unemployed"

I assume you have some evidence for that claim?

[likesmountains 52]

54. My reaction too..

[ehrnst]

36. The Benjamin Rush quote has also been debunked.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15981368

Benjamin Rush (1746-1813), the 'father' of American psychiatry, is perhaps best known as the inventor of the 'tranquilizing chair'. In recent decades, political and psychiatric activists have attributed a quotation to him in which he allegedly warned: 'To restrict the art of healing to one class of men and deny equal privileges to others will constitute the Bastille of medical science.' The source of this quotation cannot be found, and Rush's remarks about 'medical despotism' are inconsistent with the body of his work. Other examples are cited to illustrate the thesis that false attributions, used to support and advance particular ideological causes, are remarkably resistant to efforts at correction.

It seems you put your trust in less than reliable sources.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

56. Without vaccinations most pediatricians would be unemployed?

Really? The bulk of most pediatricians' day is taken up administering vaccines? Where did you ever get that idea?

I know this is anecdotal, and so may not count for much, but I did take my kids to a pediatrician a lot more than the times I took them for their vaccinations. The odd broken bone. The back to school physical or the camp physical. And my kids were quite healthy.

[Aristus]

44. His post contains a whiff of satire.

I'm pretty sensitive to the idiocies of the anti-vaxx movement, and this seems like a parody of it.

[ehrnst]

45. Check out his journal, then tell me you think it's satire.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/~panfluteman

[QED]

9. You can get vaccines without thimerosol

The FDA website has a list of the vaccines and their thimerosal contents.

"FDA-approved seasonal influenza vaccines are available in single-dose presentations that do not contain thimerosal as a preservative for use in infants, children, adults, the elderly and pregnant women. (Note- one vaccine, Fluvirin’s single-dose presentation utilizes thimerosal as part of its manufacturing process, not as a preservative, and a trace remains in the final presentation). Vaccines with trace amounts of thimerosal contain 1 microgram or less of mercury per dose."

https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#nolink

There is also a hefty bibliography of peer reviewed scientific research on vaccines, thimerosal, etc.

Peer reviewed science.

[panfluteman]

22. A Thimerosal-Free Vaccine Would Definitely Be a Better Option for Me.

However, I have had excellent results with the natural remedies I have used, and prefer to rely on them instead of using an inherently unnatural way of provoking an artificial response from the immune system, which vaccination is.

[ehrnst]

38. There is no such thing as an "artificial response from the immune system"

The immune response to vaccines is real, natural and is the same as an immune response to the disease, because the body sees the vaccine as the disease.

Allergies are an actual response to the body reacting to something that is not harmful.

I hope that clears things up.

[USALiberal]

10. Wow, amazing lack of knowledge on your part. Nt

[womanofthehills]

33. Everything is not black and white- people have allergies

Lots of people are allergic to other ingredients in the vaccines. Most people do not even bother to check out the ingredients in the different available vaccines to see which vaccine would be best for them. Here is the list from the CDC of the ingredients. I personally would pick one that did not have formaldehyde, egg proteins , msg, or thimersol. Some of the newer ones have less toxic ingredients according to this list - like Flublok and Flucelvax. You can pick vaccines manufactured with chicken eggs, Madin'Darby Canine Kidney or MDCK. CDC says: "Currently, recombinant flu vaccine is the only egg-free vaccine on the U.S. market
Flublok Quadrivalent is a quadrivalent recombinant influenza vaccine that has been licensed by the FDA for use in adults 18 years and older." There is also a live spray virus this season ( was not offered last season). Multidose ususally has mercury so it's a good idea to ask if the shot you are getting her thimersol.

Here is a list of ingredients in flu vaccines from the CDC.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf I copied part of the first two pages from this link.

[ehrnst]

37. Did you read the rest of that post? It went way beyond "allergies." (nt)

[womanofthehills]

40. I happen to have chemical sensitivities as do many others

so I have to pay close attention to what I put in my body and the foods I eat. More and more people are coming down with Multiple Chemical Sensitivity. What might be good for you, might not be good for me.

[ehrnst]

46. Like I said, the post went on about way more than allergies. (nt)

[Aristus]

48. If your body is that sensitive and vulnerable, then you definitely need to get your flu shot.

You sound too frail and weak to survive a bout of the flu.

[womanofthehills]

49. Actually, I haven't had the flu in over 15yrs and can't remember the last time I even had a cold

You can have sensitivities and be healthy. I moved to the country for the clean air which has helped big time. I belong to a hiking club and can easily hike 6 miles. Frail and weak are the last words that would describe me. I live on 40 rural acres with animals and gardens that I care for.

Actually, I avoid doctors pretty much (except when I get bitten by a rattler, which I did) and take no prescription meds.

[Aristus]

50. It sounds like health is a strong concern with you.

So getting your flu vaccine is definitely something you want to make part of your health plan.

Not having had the flu for over fifteen years is no guarantee of not getting it this season.

I've never been dead before, but that no guarantee that it won't happen to me sometime in the future.

[Separation]

53. Right?

And people actually die from the flu, i.e. Influenza.. You think this would be a no brainer!

[Hortensis]

11. Unfortunately, I don't think this is a helpful post because

alternatives are suggested to being vaccinated that are not really alternatives at all. This could be harmful if it encouraged irrational suspicion of medications and treatments that have undergone clinical trials and been proven to have real efficacy.

I also have a serious autoimmune disorder and am also always looking things up. A link between vaccination and triggering of autoimmune response is not found in most cases and found to possibly exist in a specific class -- while there are strong and proven links between autoimmune disorders and triggering of autoimmune problems and, especially, increased severity and complications from the flu.

Those with significant autoimmune reactions should consult their rheumatologist, or perhaps pulmonologist if lung involvement is the big problem, about the best way to how to avoid the flu, since for almost all that will be the most important concern. In almost all cases, the recommendation will be routine vaccination every year.

People who read about the claimed remedies posted here will find that research is inadequate at best and that at best some link or mild benefit has not been ruled in or out. All are at least probably harmless, though, an argument for not removing the post. Oscillociccinum has been around a while and contents and manufacturing processes examined, and it's generally believed that it won't hurt but won't help either -- not exactly a substitute for the flu vaccine, with or without autoimmune disorders.

Panfluteman will probably have read this, but as just one of many sources for what I'm positing:

NCBI: Influenza and autoimmunity.

Abstract: Influenza infection can cause mild to severe illness and can even lead to death. The best way to prevent infection is vaccination against influenza. Complications of influenza infection are not only a consequence of acute infection but can also present as late autoimmune response. Influenza is not frequently implicated as a trigger for autoimmune diseases, but case reports of autoimmune adverse events have been published even following influenza vaccination. In this article we review published data on autoimmune diseases following influenza infection and vaccination. We also discuss immunity of influenza infection in connection to pathogenesis of autoimmune response and autoimmune disease.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19758207

[ismnotwasm]

12. Please carefully vet your herbal supplements

We get Liver transplant patients who didn’t, or trusted the wrong people. Sometimes they get transplanted in time to save their lives.

Also, to healthcare professionals EVERY year is a bad year for the flu, because every year people die from the flu.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

16. Vaccines don't cause autism.

The crap you listed does NOTHING for the flu.
Just snake oil.

[womanofthehills]

41. but.....The Vaccine Injury Compensation Program sometimes pays .........

Vaccine Court Awards Millions to Two Children With Autism -

The federal Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, better known as “vaccine court,” has just awarded millions of dollars to two children with autism for “pain and suffering” and lifelong care of their injuries, which together could cost tens of millions of dollars.

(Not always black and white)

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/post2468343_b_2468343.html

[Dr Hobbitstein]

42. It is black and white.

From your article “The government did not admit that vaccines caused autism”

Vaccines don’t cause autism. Claiming such is an insult to those of us on the spectrum. Take that bullshit fuckery somewhere else.

[kiri]

27. not amalgams

I hope you know that homeopathy is total nonsense without a shred of scientific evidence to back it up. It is mere anecdote.

The notion of "water molecule memory" is totally disproved by Brownian motion. The idea that a water solution can be diluted so far that there is not a single molecule left of the "active ingredient" and it still has an effect that differs from tap water is absurd.

The mercury amalgam scam enriched many dentists, but it is right out of Alex Jones. In the decades when mercury amalgams become widespread in dental practice--retaining teeth, improving swallowing in the elderly; reducing pain--the life expectancy in these years increased by 60% in the USA.

It may be true that 50% of the USA population is brain dead, ref. Trump, but it is not due to mercury.

BTW, there are lots of alloys with mixed metallic elements. Amalgam is just an alloy that involves mercury; cf alchemy. Liquid mercury takes most metals into solution, but not iron.

[MarvinGardens]

30. Homeopathy is quackery.

The reason it has been allowed to be "grandfathered" and still allowed to make health claims, is that the FDA views it as a placebo, which it is. The idea that a toxic substance, when diluted down enough, has the opposite effect, is completely unsupported by science. What is instead true is that the toxic substance is being diluted until it has no effect that differs from placebo.

Now if a coworker tells me they are taking a homeopathic for the sniffles and it helps, I'm not going to challenge them because maybe they are benefiting from the placebo effect. Let them have their placebo. But you come on here and claim that a homeopathic can treat the flu, a potentially lethal disease? Nah man, that needs to be challenged.

Now, homeopathics are different than herbals, and some herbal medicines may have an effect, though they have not undergone the rigorous trials of modern drugs and vaccines. You're paying your money and taking your chances.

Oh, and vaccines don't cause autism. If they did, then unvaccinated kids would have lower rates, wouldn't they?

https://www.autismspeaks.org/science-news/no-mmr-autism-link-large-study-vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated-kids

Oh, and kid's vaccines no longer contain thimerosal out of an abundance of caution, and you can request a thimerosal free shot even if you are an adult.

But the shots with thimerosal contain as much mercury as one can of tuna, which is a drop in the bucket for me. I love a good tuna melt!

[flotsam]

32. I don't know if this will interest you

but Walgreen's offers preservative free vaccine.

[nini]

51. Then keep your butt locked up in your house

I was very sick last year because a coworker thinks like you. I should have sued his ignorant ass.

[pdsimdars]

5. I have gotten flu shots for DECADES (along with all the other shots as a child)

So did MILLIONS of others. If there were a problem it would have shown up by now.

[womanofthehills]

39. There is a Vaccine Injury Compensation Program under HRSA that has awarded billions

Last edited Mon Oct 15, 2018, 11:02 PM - Edit history (1)

for vaccine injury. There is always going to be a tiny portion of the population that have severe injuries or die from vaccines. Since the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program started it has paid out $3,957,922,573.54 to people injured by vaccines according to below government link.



https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/data/index.html

[ehrnst]

47. There is a portion of the population that has allergies to antibiotics.

That does negate the medical efficacy of antibiotics used properly in populations that do not have allergies to them.

[mountain grammy]

8. Got mine last week

A severe case of flu 30 years ago taught me a lesson. Not this bad but bad.

[zipplewrath]

15. That was a very bad story

Something was seriously off about that story. First of all, the Flu didn't put him in a coma, the doctors did. And they didn't do it because of the flu. The did it because his organs started shutting down due to a bout of sepsis. He didn't seek any medical attention until the sepsis kicked in, which is a REALLY odd outcome of flu for a 38 year old otherwise healthy human. The primary takeaway I got from the story was that one shouldn't suffer the symptoms of the flu for that long before they see a doctor. And it is quite possible this guy would have gotten the flu even with the shot.

But I got my flu shot last week.

[ehrnst]

17. "It's hard to say why the flu hit Hinderliter so hard."

His primary care doctor, Kevin King at Mercy Clinic in St. Louis County, says there are several factors that can predispose people to complications from the flu including a weakened immune system and age. About 70 percent of hospitalizations and 90 percent of flu-related deaths occurred in people over 65 in the 2017-2018 flu season, according to the CDC.

Hinderliter was an otherwise healthy 38-year-old. But King says there's still a risk for people like him.

[zipplewrath]

18. And why he waited so long

What they didn't say was why he waited so long to seek any medical attention at all. Look, you're sick that long and only getting worse, see a doctor for crying out loud. I don't run to the doctor at the first sniffle, but if things are just getting worse for 3 or 4 days, it's time to see a doctor. Heck, most employers will insist that you see medical attention after about 2 days if you're out of work.

[ehrnst]

20. I have known several men like that. More reason for them to get the shot. (nt)

[zipplewrath]

21. Or a brain

Even with a shot, one can get quite sick. Vaccines aren't the cure for stupid.

[ehrnst]

23. Until such a time as there is a vaccine for stupid, we have the flu shot.

I have this same discussion with people who think that because the HPV vaccine won't protect against all cancers or keep their daughter from having sex, but they think fear of HPV will, it's worse than useless.

[zipplewrath]

24. Speeding with anti-lock brakes

I was talking to a guy that had just had a harrowing experience on the highway. He had hydroplaned on the road during a rain storm. He lost control for a moment and thankfully didn't hit anyone. He ended up on the side of the road halfway into a ditch. I said something about having to slow down during the heavy rains and his answer was "but that's why I have anti-lock brakes". I replied that anti-lock brakes won't help driving stupid. I don't think he understood my point.

[ehrnst]

25. People have said the same about why they didn't think airbags save lives

because they believe that having airbags emboldens people to drive more recklessly.

However, research shows that abstinence-only education doesn't delay the age at which kids have sex, so the argument that talking about contraception or preventing STDs encourages kids to have risky sex is debunked by research.

And I don't think that getting the flu shot encourages "stupid" behavior, like not going to the doctor when you feel ill, in anyone. If you have some reasearch on the behavioral consequences of vaccinations, I'm happy to see it.

[zipplewrath]

26. No, you're right

Even stupid people should get the shot. It's just that it won't fix the stupid, which can be more deadly than the flu. Strangely, on anti-lock brakes, there have been studies showing that they've been a zero sum gain. The brakes predominately allow the driver to continue to steer/control the car during severe braking. Prior to that, people tended to lock up the wheels, and then slide off the road into a ditch. Roads tend to be "crowned" to make the water run off them so a skidding car tends to slide off to the side. With anti-lock brakes, the driver can continue to steer the car so they tend to steer into other cars, or worse, on coming traffic. The brakes have helped people who drive with a brain, but made bad drivers more dangerous. It's not so much an argument against anti-lock brakes, it's an argument against telling people it makes them somehow safer.

The moral of the original story isn't that one should get the shot, it's that when you're sick, you should seek medical attention. For all anyone knows, the shot wouldn't have changed this story one bit, because for some strange reason, an otherwise healthy 38 year old had a VERY severe reaction to the flu.

There is a PSA right now for the shot that is aimed right at young, health males. It basically says to get the shot "for grandma". Vaccines work in part because they prevent the SPREAD of disease. Otherwise healthy people can still spread the disease to those that aren't.

[QED]

58. Maybe he had a high copay

That keeps so many people from seeing the doc.

[MarvinGardens]

31. K&R (nt)

[Vinca]

35. That's when I started getting flu shots - after I got really, really sick.

Fortunately, not coma sick, but it's the one and only time I've had a fever so high I hallucinated. I truly thought I was going to die.

[Iggo]

43. But I got a flu shot and then I got a cold, so yeah that proves it.

Checkmate.

[elocs]

57. I'm 66 and have never had a flu shot.

I realize that this story is supposed to scare me into getting a flu shot but I don't operate well on fear.
I don't know if I've ever had the flu but I did have a cold 12 years ago. I remember the swine flu debacle back in the '70s but we all know that could never happen again.
I spent my final working years at a Salvation Army homeless shelter where I reckon I was exposed to more than a few nasty bugs and came away unscathed.
I'm not an anti-vaxxer because I do get my tetanus shot, as well as ones for shingles and pneumonia but those seem pretty effective compared the the crapshoot that is the yearly flu shot where they try and guess what to cover where maybe it will work, maybe it won't.
So since I don't work I'm not around people there and I'm not around children or any other vulnerable adults. I'm schizoid and prefer not to be around people and I'm certain that has helped to keep me well also. I figure my chances of being hit by a car while biking are a lot higher than getting the flu.
And I'm not going to live my life be manipulated by fear.

[FDRLincoln]

59. Flu killed my therapist

The flu killed my family therapist last December. She was 62 years old and in good health for her age. She got sick on a Thursday and was dead by Tuesday. We miss her terribly.

I got my shot last week.