We don't have good framing on the abortion issue IMHO

[SHRED]

We don't want abortions either.

We advocate for.more robust and comprehensive sex education at an early age.
We advocate for access to birth control.
We view these as lessening the chance of an unwanted pregnancy, which is a fact.

Instead we focus on "choice" which gives the other side ammunition to say we are "pro-abortion".

I think our motto should be "pro-prevention" but it's too late for that I'm afraid.

Don't misunderstand me. I totally favor a women's right to choose her own medical decisions.

[ck4829]

1. It's because we play too nice

Could talk about how fiscal conservatives are against abortion because it means cheap labor for the jobs that automation don’t replace and driving down wages in general.

Could talk about how right wing evangelicals are against abortion because they get cannon fodder for their nuclear war "clash of civilizations" against the Muslims and/or to die against Gog and Magog so the "end times" can start.

But that would be... going low.

[niyad]

7. I DON;T play nice. the anti's are woman-hating, pro-forced birth, gestational slavers.

[ck4829]

16. And that's the energy we need

[gopiscrap]

65. that's exactly what it is and should be framed that way

[MiniMe]

2. Totally agree with you

I am not Pro-Abortion either, I don't think anybody is. However, I do believe that it is the woman's choice to make up her mind about what she wants to do with her body.

[JenniferJuniper]

6. I'm absolutely pro-abortion

if that's what the pregnant woman wants. It's not my business, your business, and it's certainly not the government's business.

[SammyWinstonJack]

48. As am I!

[shanny]

53. Preach.

[saidsimplesimon]

3. yes, at last someone agrees with me

I support sex education, birth control and access to abortions. If we spent more time on education and funding in providing birth control (both male and female) education we could reduce the necessity for abortion. Of course, there are those who consider women chattel and women who bow to their masters.

I like your framing "pro-prevention" of abortions. It's not too late, thank you.

[Johnny2X2X]

4. I am pro abortion

But that shouldn't be the messaging.

This is a women's health issue. Do we want the government to tell women what they can do with their bodies or do we trust the individual to decide for their self?

For the record, I think abortion should be easily accessible and free to all women who want them. I am pro abortion, more abortion is better for our society. And it makes women more free.

[TheBlackAdder]

5. And we're afraid to mention that there is a price to "life," about $320K in state & local taxes.

.

These fiscal conservatives will freak when the bill comes in. If 10K extra births occur in a state, each year, for 18 years, you're looking at an increase to state and local budgets of over $3 Billion per year! You have things such as medical, food, housing, tax deductions and most expensive of all, education & school transportation.

Right now, there is a near equilibrium between birth and death rates, keeping taxes flat. Births are relatively flat.

The elimination of abortion services will cause a massive spike in birth rates in each state, and that will decimate state budgets in a couple of decades. I believe Rick Perry cut back abortion in Texas for less than a year and that led to over 7K extra births, and he backed off on those restrictions--because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize where that was going. We're talking Gov. Oops realized it... so it has to be pretty obvious.


Now: Add it the cost of foster care and stipends and you will see this spike closer to $25K or more per year.

I'll give you a classic Teabagger response to what I am describing:

I moved back to my hometown with four kids. A local teabagger, who drives around with RW radio blaring in his car, came up to me and started to give me shit for raising his taxes by moving four kids into our development, since it will drive up education costs for the town. Mind you, I never met this fucker before, and he just came up to me to give me shit about living.

Besides how the "Pro-Life" position distorts much of the Bible, which can't be successfully argued with fundamenalists who use it as a wedge issue to keep their congregation and donation coffers flowing, God kills scores of pregnant women, babies and children all the time. While holy rollers claim that God has a plan for pre-borns, and knows their names and futures, it is ridiculous to think that abortion isn't also part of God's plan. Yet, when the US flies in and bombs residential homes and hospitals, that's part of God's plan.

.

[Squinch]

8. On ALL these issues, all it would take would be a very good PR firm and all of us being

disciplined about messaging.

We have the truth on our side.

PS: I'm totally pro abortion. I know what life is like before abortion was legal. Splitting hairs on whether one is pro abortion is like splitting hairs on whether one is pro open heart surgery. It's dopey.

[JudyM]

64. This. WTH is the deal with the lack of potent unified messaging?

[ProfessorPlum]

9. I agree, the framing is bad

but the better phrase is "bodily autonomy". The idea that no one can be forced to give up an organ, even if that organ could save another's life.

[phylny]

24. I tried bringing up this very idea on Friday, but it fell flat.

Perhaps I didn't state my idea properly.

[ProfessorPlum]

42. It's kind of hard to describe quickly

But just say, "if you were a donor match for someone who needed a kidney to save their life, should you be _forced_ to give them a kidney? No? Then you support a woman's right to choose to either remain pregnant or not".

[RhodeIslandOne]

10. Because most Americans don't care about a private medical procedure

But the nuts who do drive people to the polls.

[CrispyQ]

11. The "legal, safe, but rare" meme has been out there & doesn't make any difference.

I think there are two kinds of anti-abortion people. Those who want to control women, & those who put the rights of a clump of cells over the rights of a living breathing woman. The first group could care less about unwanted pregnancy & would actually use it as a means of control, & a good number of the second group believe that birth control is a form of abortion.

We are not going to sway these people. We need to engage the non-voters & young women. Use the 13th Amendment as the argument for choice. Forcing women to carry a pregnancy to term is the same as making her a slave to the fetus & violates her 13th Amendment rights.

https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1031&context=facultyworkingpapers

2010
Forced Labor, Revisited: The Thirteenth
Amendment and Abortion
Andrew Koppelman
Northwestern University School of Law, [e-mail]

I. The basic argument
The Thirteenth Amendment reads as follows:
1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
2. Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

My claim is that the amendment is violated by laws that prohibit abortion. When women are compelled to carry and bear children, they are subjected to "involuntary servitude" in violation of the amendment. Abortion prohibitions violate the Amendment's guarantee of personal liberty, because forced pregnancy and childbirth, by compelling the woman to serve the fetus, creates "that control by which the personal service of one man [sic] is disposed of or coerced for another's benefit which is the essence of involuntary servitude."6

Such laws violate the amendment's guarantee of equality, because forcing women to be mothers makes them into a servant caste, a group which, by virtue of a status of birth, is held subject to a special duty to serve others and not themselves.

[WeekiWater]

12. "I support unfettered access for all women in all states when it comes to access to safe and.....

affordable abortions." No apologies. No making it out to be something else. A woman's right to choose is just that, a right.

In the new poll 67 percent of those surveyed said the 1973 Supreme Court decision should stand.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/most-americans-want-roe-v-wade-stand-survey-shows-n887751

We are being beat by congressional redistricting, an uneven playing field, and passionate activism. Land owners have more of a say in the process than anyone. That includes sparsely populated areas of land that give smaller groups of people just as strong of a voice.

[leftynyc]

13. Start by calling the opposition as FORCED BIRTH

and forget moronic pro-life nonsense.

[TheBlackAdder]

30. It's an odd stance. Whites in power fear the poorer and urban people, yet want to drive their births

.

The people with money will always find the means to get an abortion.

They will drive the country down, by cuts to social and education programs, creating a serf class.

That expanding serf class with exacerbate their minority status and lead to their political downfall.

.

[roamer65]

14. I am completely pro-abortion.

Given we are 10 years away from irreversible climate change, I am 100 percent in the population reduction camp. I think we should offer $$$ to men and women who do not have children. If birth control fails for anyone, then easily accessible and safe abortion should be there for them.

[meow2u3]

15. It's never too late

We want to prevent abortions; Republicans want to punish women for being female. Enuf said.

[peggysue2]

17. The opposition already changed the framing of

pro-choice to pro-abortion. Why would anyone expect them to accept pro-prevention, particularly when many of these same people are against contraception?

It's the changing of the narrative, rebranding it to their own advantage that's the problem. Pro-choice is a perfectly good position for all the reasons you mentioned. And the stance on abortion itself? We are SLR's

Safe
Legal and
Rare

It's not even the concept of abortion that drives the political edge of the movement. It's the idea that women should be in charge of their own reproductive destiny that drives the right-wing batshit crazy.

So no, I wouldn't favor the change in branding; that only gives the crazies another win. We embrace the idea of pro-choice because it's right and humane.

[nycbos]

18. George Carlin said is best.

Or we could go Monty Python.

[lindysalsagal]

34. The Gospel According to George.

Love that man. Miss that man.

[nycbos]

66. I also love his take on the 10 commandments

[treestar]

20. It is good framing in terms of exposing

that they are not pro-life, they are anti-choice. They do not care about the fetuses, but the control of women.

[Caliman73]

21. Nope. We want abortion to be available for anyone who needs or wants one.

When we cede to the idea that abortions are some kind of horrible thing, then we have already lost the argument.

We do want to reduce the need for abortion by providing contraception, and good sex education to boys, girls, men, and women. We want to reduce the stigma of the use of contraception and of accessing abortion services when needed.

We want to reduce abortions because preventing unintended and unwanted pregnancies is easier and better than having a medical procedure to terminate the pregnancy. Less cost and less danger for the mother. However, it should ALWAYS be an option for when those other strategies fail.

We cannot be squeamish about being pro-abortion.

[Iggo]

22. But I am pro-abortion.

And pro-prevention.

And pro-education.

All of it.

You're suggesting I frame it as though I'm anti-abortion, which I'm not.

[diva77]

23. I'd just sum up the rethug message as: they're anti-human

they oppose all of the social safety net items required for a healthy fetus to grow - health care, education, environmental, & FDA regulation, and much much more

[DFW]

25. Rob Sand of Iowa had a good solution to this

He's only running for State Auditor, but in Iowa, it's a bigger deal than in many states. He counters the anti-choice bible thumpers with selected bible quotes that support choice. He said it has worked for him when confronted by anti-choice people who are otherwise sympathetic to him, and the State Auditor of Iowa has just about zero to do with abortion anyway (that's how fanatic Republicans are in his neck of the woods, or, rather, cornfields, in his case).

[bullwinkle428]

46. I wonder if Rob Sand has spent some time listening to John Fugelsang, because his approach

to countering these fundie nuts is positively "Fugelsangian"!

BTW, the signature quote you're displaying is something I've heard JF express or paraphrase regularly on his show.

[DFW]

50. I'd be surprised, but I'll ask him

The André Gide quote is one I've been using for over 15 years. The original is in French. I don't live in the USA, and have never heard JF'S show. How long has he been using it? Maybe he got it from me?

[delisen]

26. Your ideas on this are great; keep posting.

[Funtatlaguy]

27. We should stress the punishment. If abortion is murder, the murderers must die too. Right?

That’s a lot of dead women and doctors. Or a lot in prison for life.

[hurl]

28. Reproductive Freedom

No apologies

[saidsimplesimon]

29. You have my respect.

It's not framing for the sake of political gain that will resonate. It is the sincere appreciation for Democratic moral values, including a woman's right to be free from male domination, not a religious, so named, moral stance on abortion.

[Retrograde]

31. I'm reclaiming Pro-Life

I am Pro-Life. I believe all women have the right to control their own reproductive health. I believe women have the right to chose to have an abortion if they wish, and it's none of my business why. I believe all women have the right to safe and affordable means of birth control.

I believe that all women have the right to pre-natal care to ensure the health of them and their children. I believe all women and their children have the right to regular medical care, as well as access to clean air and water. I believe all women and their children have the right to an education. I believe all women and their children have the right to a decent living. I believe all women and their children have a right to a peaceful life devoid of wars fought to enrich the elite.

I do not believe that concern for a child ends at birth.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

32. Count me in as pro abortion. It's a necessary medical procedure like any other.

[Deb]

33. In a nutshell...

The GOP makes money off MY crotch. All women need to understand that about themselves.

Until the gravy train stops, we will have a struggle.

[underthematrix]

35. How can abortion be an issue for Christians?

So called Christians are not supposed to FORNICATE outside of marriage. They're not supposed to use any device or other means to disrupt pregnancy. If they are Christians as they allege then this is a nonissue.

And we still have separation of Church and state.

[Ms. Toad]

36. 3...2...1

the countdown until someone else says we are, too, pro-abortion.

Without having looked, I'll bet it's within the first 5 posts.

ETA: Nailed it. Post 4.

[shanny]

59. you say that like it's a bad thing

and that is precisely the problem

[kcr]

61. Woo! High five!

[ismnotwasm]

37. Disageee

I want abortions to be a personal medical decision. This include the idea that I can decide whether or not to be pregnant.


We’ve tried other framing. It didn’t work either. Those asshole don’t care about wonens rights

[Vinca]

38. I think our message should be keep your nose out of everyone's business.

Women don't tell men when to get a vasectomy or when they must get a prostate exam. They have control over their own bodies and women should have control over theirs. Old, white, male politicians have no business playing doctor . . . and neither do old, white, male judges.

[Mosby]

39. I think the framing that can work with RWers

Is pointing out that the government has no business insinuating itself between a doctor and their patients.

Passing laws about reproductive health is a form of nanny-statism.

This approach appeals to their libertarian sides.

[David__77]

40. I don't mind being called "pro-abortion."

I am glad that medical and surgical abortion exist to offer women additional options.

[wellst0nev0ter]

41. 13-year-old rape victim

Anyone who thinks she should bear her rapist's child should go to hell.

That's how you frame it, make these shitlords defend the indefensible in polite public.

Anyways, 79% of the public support abortion rights, so these forced birthers are in the clear minority.

[A HERETIC I AM]

43. How about this one?

[Cha]

44. I agree. It should always be about

Pro Choice. "Abortion" shouldn't even be mentioned. I cringe when I see that.

Yes, "pro-prevention" is descriptive of Planned Parenthood.

Nobody does want abortions but it should be the woman's right to choose.

[Generic Brad]

45. It's womb slavery

Not your body - not your business.

[bullwinkle428]

47. No. We need to confront these "pro-life" people directly, and ask them who they believe

should be imprisoned for the "crime" of abortion - the woman, the doctor, the man who impregnated the woman, or some combination of the above.

[Arazi]

49. Newsflash: they aren't pro-prevention except abstinence. Really futile tact

[KCDebbie]

51. We say: Young people need sex education...

They say: Sex education encourages young people to have sex.

We say: There should be access to oral contraceptives and condoms.

They say: Access to oral contraceptives encourages young people to have sex.

We say: All women should have access to legal and safe abortions.

They say: Access to legal and safe abortions encourages young people to have sex.

They're terrified that somehow, somewhere a young person, or anyone for that matter, is having sex recreationally and ENJOYING it...

[shanny]

52. "not wanting abortions either"--the old "safe, legal and rare"--

is falling into the R framing. If you say we don't want abortions, you are saying they are bad...and they are NOT. They are medical procedures, which are neutral at most. They prevent additional trauma when there is incest or rape involved. They allow women to live the lives they choose. Most of all they are about equal rights for women, to decide on their own and on their own terms whether they want a child, or not.

Excuse me, but it has FUCK ALL to do with what ANY man wants. When men can get pregnant, they can have a say. When pregnancies can be sustained and brought to term without the involvement of a woman's body, they can have a say. Until then they can shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down.

I am pro-abortion.


p.s. a commenter on the teevee made the point the other day that she does not believe life begins at conception and "why would you want the government telling people what they should believe?" Shut the sanctimonious rw prick right up. Priceless!

[calimary]

54. I have a few lines to throw back at 'em.

There's "you can CHOOSE ... NOT to have an abortion. That's what being pro-choice is all about."


But I like to rattle cages sometimes.

Ahhh... pro-"life."

Well, you CAN'T really be pro-"life" if you like cutting all those programs that support poor women and children.

You CAN'T say you're pro-"life" if you don't believe there's a climate crisis.

You CAN'T say you're pro-"life" if you're pro DEATH penalty.

You CAN'T say you're pro-"life" if you're okay with unlimited access to guns.

You CAN'T say you're pro-"life" if you hate the Affordable Care Act, and love the politicians who want to do away with it.

You CAN'T say you're pro-"life" if you think environmental protections aren't necessary. A healthy eco-system protects YOUR life!

You CAN'T say you're pro-"life" if you hate immigrants, many of whom are trying to save their own lives by fleeing to this country to escape the barbarism in theirs.

You CAN'T say you're pro-"life" if you only care about the developing embryo and stop caring for the baby the moment it's born.

You CAN'T say you're pro-"life" if you begrudge the elderly the Social Security checks they've EARNED after decades of work.

You CAN'T say you're pro-"life" if you want Planned Parenthood closed down. Know what they mainly do? Provide HEALTH CARE to women who can't afford it. Pap smears, mammograms, and other LIFE-EXTENDING health maintenance services. Did I say LIFE-EXTENDING?

And I'm sure I'll think of more...

[Hekate]

55. "The Full Range of Women's Health Care" is what I came up with. Pass it on. Make it go viral.

I am 71 and am so godsdam sick of the fight about abortion. Abortions are part of the Full Range of Women's Health Care.

Look at it this way: I get Pap tests -- that is part of the Full Range. So far so good, but if something dubious shows up, that's part of the Full Range. I get mammograms -- ditto. I used to used contraception -- ditto. I got pregnant, I used prenatal and postnatal care, and I used an obstetrician. Part of the Full Range.

Not every woman uses all of the Full Range, but it needs to be there for all of us in order for it to work.

Abortion is no different. Legal or illegal, an amazing number of women have abortions in their lifetimes. It is a common and necessary procedure. Stop apologizing for it, stop fighting about it, stop trying to explain it to those who will never change their minds -- just tell the naysayers it is part of the Full Range of Women's Health Care, period, full stop, and that you support all of it.

[JI7]

56. MOST people are prochoice so why give the other side a win on this debate ?

[JI7]

57. prochoice is a positive. the other side is ANTI choice

they framed it so they called themselves prolife . and i get so frustrated when i hear prochoice people refer to them as pro life also. call them anti choice.

[EleanorR]

58. I think it's excellent

My body, my choice.

Access to birth control is not something right wingers want for women, and they never have.

[Garrett78]

60. I don't think changing the framing on this issue would make any electoral difference.

The framing that needs to change is how we talk about Republicans. Democrats need to get much more blunt about who Republicans are and what they're attempting to do. Fuck diplomacy. This is war.

[Olafjoy]

62. When I argue abortion

1. If person says they are pro-life, I make sure they are as adamantly anti-death penalty. If they are in favor of the death penalty they cannot argue about life. Thou Shalt not Kill. They need to be supporting anti-death penalty candidates as fervently as anti-abortion candidates.
2. If life begins at conception and embryo and fetus are people, why is your 1st birthday not 3 months after you are born? Also, if a fertility clinic was on fire and there was a substantial chance of the roof caving in and killing firefighters, do you send them in to rescue the “people” anyway?
3. When abortion is illegal, women do not stop having abortions. They have unclean and unsafe
abortions and thousands and thousands of women die. Why are their lives not important to you?
4. If you are going to regulate birth control, will you agree to the stipulation that no man will be prescribed Viagra, Levitra, and Cialis unless his wife comes to the appointment with him and testifies that it will only be used for intercourse within the marriage?
5. If you are going to pass laws regulating a woman’s body, would you support a law on men’s bodies that makes it illegal for a man to engage in sex if it not for procreation? If it is OK to regulate female autonomy, it is equally OK to regulate male autonomy?

[onecaliberal]

63. Republicans are fake pro lifers.

If you support any war or dropping any bombs anywhere near people, If you want to take away healthcare, food, affordable housing, jobs with a living wage, social security and Medicare then you are NOT pro life. You don’t give two shits about actual life.
This issue is about one thing for pukes and that is controlling women. Full stop.