General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFrom Today's WP: I watched a rape. For five decades, I did nothing.
I dont remember the month it occurred or the exact town it was in, but I remember that the party was in an upper-class suburb south of Pittsburgh. I dont remember how I got home. These details dont matter to me. What I remember clearly was the rape. Recalling it, for me, is like remembering where I was when I found out that President John Kennedy had been assassinated. There is a before and an after.
At one point, a boy told several of us to go outside and look through a window into the basement because another boy, a football player, had taken a girl there. (There were far more boys than girls at this party.) When we peered through, we saw the girl passed out on a sofa, her feet facing us. As the boy approached her, he waved to us, smiling. He proceeded to remove her jeans and then her underwear. It was the first time I had seen a girl naked. He climbed on top of her and penetrated her. She immediately woke up and tried to fight him off. At this point, we all scattered in the yard. No one said anything. There was just nervous laughter.
Eventually, we all went back into the house. I dont remember anyone drinking, other than the girls. I did not drink anything. We must have gone into a bedroom, because the next thing I recall is standing with about 10 other boys around a bed on which a different girl had passed out. Everyone was touching her through her clothing. I placed my hand on her leg and quickly removed it.
More at:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/i-watched-a-rape-for-five-decades-i-did-nothing/2018/10/05/f28d9cf8-c805-11e8-b2b5-79270f9cce17_story.html?utm_term=.64b461f93121&wpisrc=nl_rainbow&wpmm=1
Squinch
(50,949 posts)girl that night.
Few men reading about his guilt feelings will fault him for what he did. Few will fault him, or even notice, the whitewash he gave to his own actions that night. They'll say he was too young to know any better.
Every single women reading that bullshit will know exactly how old he is, exactly how much he knew, and exactly who and what he was. And we know there are many out there who are the same.
I went to the WP to make this same comment on that article. They have closed comments, citing the following:
They see this as a personal loss for this author.
I, and most other women, see it as a crime against the two girls who were violated that night.
Men need to wake the fuck up and realize what is going on here.
DeminPennswoods
(15,286 posts)that's why commenting was turned off.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)mercuryblues
(14,531 posts)Not a one of those creeps stopped it. I swear if one more person on this board says there is no such thing as rape culture...
And this is why women must take charge. Many of the menz think rape is entertainment for others. When will ALL men stand up, teach their sons better and treat rape as a true crime.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)In the moment, they think it's a hijink that makes them mildly uncomfortable and giggly, but not a violent, criminal assault that they need to act against.
Collectively - and the collective aspect is a REALLY important part of this - collectively, they think stopping the rape is not worth the disapproval they will get from the rapist.
anarch
(6,535 posts)It at least feels like it may be a turning point.
I feel that maybe there is a deeper, underlying issue with our patriarchal culture in general...but anyway, I agree...anyone who at this point can scoff at the idea that we have a serious cultural issue with rape that we need to address and correct, anyone who thinks "rape culture" is blowing things out of proportion must be willfully blind. It's undeniable, and hardly just an issue in this country...humans need to do better.
tblue37
(65,357 posts)I wanted to tell this story because I believe its time for men to tell the truth about the ways theyve abused women and what our role has been in creating a culture that tolerates this. We all have seen things; weve all heard other men talk. I remember sitting in a bar with some acquaintances about 30 years ago when one of the men, a local magistrate in a poor area of West Virginia, bragged about a system he had when pretty girls were charged with a DUI. He said that sometimes he would take them back to his office and offer them a deal. He would drop the DUI charges if they gave him oral sex. I squirmed in my seat. Was he just talking, locker-room style? Did it really happen? It didnt even occur to me to report him to anyone.
My boys are 19, 17 and 11 years old. What I teach them about the treatment of girls is simple: respect, respect, respect. If they witness something like I did, go to the authorities. This is no time to worry about being a snitch. My two older boys are more aware about consent issues than I was at their ages. I reminded them that I was the same age when I witnessed the rape; my very first vision of sexual contact was a rape. My sons agree I was a foolish, immature teenager. They know I would never do anything like that again. They see how I treat their mother, which might be the best lesson I can give them.
snip
Squinch
(50,949 posts)which included active molestation of another girl that same night.
Just his word choices tell me this is a nice sentiment, but mostly lip service. He is still of the mind that "I would never do that," when in fact, he did.
delisen
(6,043 posts)a young man or boy in a culture we have been working to change for decades. We have had a measure of success; we need more. I appreciate him telling his story.
I am an agnostic, not a christian, but on judgmentalism I stand with Jesus.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)himself a pass. And you, also, give him a pass for the distance he is trying to put between himself and his own criminal action.
I assume you are a man. Who has, by the way, judged my reaction as being non-Jesus-like while telling me how non-judgmental you are.
How nice for you that you can choose not to judge men on whether they have the capacity to rape or assault. Half the population does not have that luxury.
delisen
(6,043 posts)and my statements. May peace be with you.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)wrong judgment.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)is coming clean to the best of his current ability, but he is still in denial about the extent of his culpability.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 7, 2018, 03:00 PM - Edit history (1)
OP.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)PA Democrat
(13,225 posts)I did not want to add my interpretation of the author's justifications or explanations for coming forward now, and hoped everyone would read the complete article.
My takeaway was that I think this sort of group assault or assault with observers happens much more than people would like to believe. Victims have been too afraid to come forward and the participants seem sworn to protect one another.
I think it did take a certain amount of courage on Mr. Palmerine's part to make this admission albeit 50 years later. And I think it is a very good thing that it has made people stop and think about what we are teaching young men and women when so many are willing to protect the perpetrators.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)The message from the article shows why there was and is silence and why the silence has to end by first focusing on the victims and helping both them and the almost equally traumatized witnesses.
If the victim is going to be raked over the rails then so will any witnesses daring to corroborate her.
As we have recently seen.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)The author states exactly what you are accusing him of doing. Admits it completely. I think he has been brutally honest with himself and about his actions, including his stupid admiration of the jocks.
Im a victim of a pedophile sexual predator, so dont think Im being stupidly gullible and naive. I simply dont think this person is the same as Trump who loves to brag about his penchant for grabbing pussy. Learning to tell the difference is a sign that we arent broken beyond repair. That we are fighters and that we are every bit a full human being.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)He characterizes his actions that night as "watching a rape." That is what he chose for his headline. He refers to himself as a "watcher."
He is not a "watcher." He is a sexual assaulter.
And yes, I can tell the difference. And no, WE are not broken. He, and the others like him, are.
This man is still paying lip service to guilt while distancing himself from and exonerating himself for his worst actions. The headline point for him about that night was that he watched a rape. Not that he participated in a sexual assault.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Im not sure what he should be saying to convince us that he feels the shame and guilt. I dont think he sugar coated it because he appeared to be pretty frank in describing his really stupid and clumsy behavior. Compare that to Trumps bragging about how he acts towards women he finds attractive and to his victims description of what he did to them, and to his complete lack of guilt or remorse.
Why would he even talk about what happened decades ago with a crowd of people he hasnt kept in contact with and who he didnt know before the incident. It doesnt sound like hes confessing to something to preempt being outed.
This article is a good start. At least he learned enough from his guilt to try to teach his sons to respect women. It may be baby steps in our estimation, but at the very least its the right baby steps.
The rape culture has to be acknowledged by men or it will never change. Men have to start the mens movement against rape, because just sitting silently watching isnt a solution.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)I want to make this last point:
I agree with you when you say he was pretty frank in describing "his really stupid and clumsy behavior." I agree with that description of what he seems to think his behavior amounts to. But it was a lot more than stupid and clumsy behavior. He perpetrated a sexual assault on the second girl. That was a heinous, disgusting crime.
I am comfortable with our shades of disagreement, though, and respect your position.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)I was talking about his article, as he wrote it.
But no matter how contrite he is now he did commit a crime.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)But he was in that situation 50 years ago? The view then on rape was blatantly wrong. Even if he had gone to police, his complaint would have been blown off. Even if the girl and her parents had gone to police, their complaints would have been largely ignored, class then meant even more than it does today, my guess is the girls were purposely chosen from the wrong side of the tracks and went to the party wanting to impress upper class boys, to their victimization.
I think the point of the guy writing the article was to support why Christine Blasey remembers little about her attempted rape other than the boys who tried to rape her. I can promise you that there are a lot of women today who were raped 30-50 years ago, or assaulted but not raped who are keeping their mouths shut and will take it to their grave, all to not upset the life they have. They saw out scumbag President make fun of an assault victim, they saw the audience laugh at that victim with him. They won't put themselves through that. It will take men who witnessed a rape and did nothing to come forward decades later and rip open their shirts to show their scarlet letter. It is easy to tear the guy apart, he did participate in a sexual assault, but it is men like him that have lived with that shame who will be a big part of the solution.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)My problem with this is that the guy is very, very contrite about watching the rape and not doing anything about it. But he slides past the assault he participated in, emphasizes how minor his role was, and says of it, "I'm glad it didn't go farther." As if it was a thing with a mind of its own. He's distancing himself. The most disturbing event of that night for him, the headline event, was the rape he watched, not the assault he perpetrated. His headline was "I watched a rape" not "I sexually assaulted a girl." There's a big difference there in taking responsibility for one's actions.
I appreciate that he is coming forward. But he is still not being fully honest with himself or with us.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)He should have ran to a house and have someone call the police as soon as he saw the guy taking off the girl's cloths. But he didn't and that sat in his mind all this time.
On the sexual assault, yes, he is playing a game of minimization of his own guilt.
I was lucky as a boy and teen. I was not among the popular kids, I was actually an academic type, but I also didn't give one shit about their views and whether they liked me. Maybe it was all the walks that I would take in the country after school, or searching for lost golf balls to resell for a dime or quarter to golfers looking for a good cheap golfball. Whatever it was, I had an emotional shield. It is easy for me to use that shield to pillor the guy in the Post article, but I won't because I knew kids who were just like him when I was in school and even in college.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)into the house and getting everyone to stop was not a likely turn of events. I understand that young men have been raised by our culture not to know right from wrong with respect to women (and yes, I do mean every word of that. )
My issue is with him today. He wants to come clean. He thinks he HAS come clean. And he is nowhere near to coming clean, especially with himself.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)He could have done better. Admit to being part of a sexual assualt, then explain to parents how they can teach their sons to not be like him.
Ms. Toad
(34,072 posts)The very first line in the article takes responsibility for both:
The headline was written by a special group and, as a general rule, the authors of the article are not consulted - nor would they have veto power if they were consulted.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)I think the article is educational...to everyone.
Given the massive underreporting of sexual crimes the question is...why?
The answer is complex and this fills in one of the complexities.
Things must change, is the message.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)How many 14 year old girls are going to admit that they got totally drunk, even if their drinks were spiked, and then gang raped? Most clean themselves up and hope that their birth control works. A few years later when they become moms, the bury the memory deeper, totally ignorant that by not bringing it out and trying to hold people accountable. And even if they come out, if other women that were victimized by the same boys don't come out, the lone woman will be questioned and vilified. Bill Cosby escaped conviction when it was him versus one or two other women, he got convicted when other women came forward. The same dynamic is playing out in the arrest and trial of Harvey Weinstein.
On Brett Kavanaugh, unless an 8mm home video comes out showing him mounting a drunken, passed out girl during a gang rape, and accusations against his will eventually be brushed aside, as we saw in the one's lodged against him. There are likely women that he gang raped, they are moms, maybe prominent people or well off, they will be hesitant to give that up to seek justice for them, other moms, daughters and granddaughters.
Coventina
(27,120 posts)GMAFB
He didn't report it because he wanted to be "in" with the cool boys.
Solly Mack
(90,767 posts)GitRDun
(1,846 posts)Where are the men who witnessed what happened to Ford, Swetnick, Martinez?
Cowards all!
A pox on all their houses.
Raven
(13,891 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Squinch
(50,949 posts)A large part of this piece is his attempt to exonerate himself. A large part of it is him saying, "I watched a rape and feel really bad," and "I'm a really good guy, not the type who approves of this," and "I'm raising my boys to be good men," and "my kids agree I was really really young (the implication being "not that responsible" ) when this happened," and, "I only touched that girl a little," and, "I'm so glad the assault I participated in didn't go farther than it did."
All of that boils down to this: "I'm a good guy. I totally disapprove of this kind of thing. I'm not the kind of guy who does this kind of thing. I have been racked with guilt about my itty bitty role in the events of that night. But there are really bad guys out there and we need to acknowledge that and start to call out those really bad guys on their behavior."
As a woman, I think this: "Bullshit. Yes, there are really bad guys out there, and you are one of them. You DID this. YOU did this. You can distance yourself all you want, you can minimize your role all you want, but if you want me to believe you, you would have done better to say, 'I am who you feared. Nothing I did before or since changes that fact. I ruined a girl's faith in the world for the rest of her life. I am one of the guilty ones. I am sorry about that, and I will fight for the rest of my life to stop these things, but I am guilty.'"
His take of "I am actually a good guy but I witnessed this and then I did a little assault" angers me.
IluvPitties
(3,181 posts)Men are not only perpetrators. They are also victims of a culture that has designated sexual abuse as a rite of passage. A culture that has validated this in all sorts if ways, and that has rejected everything "feminine", including non-dominant masculinity, as weak and undesirable.
An anecdote: In my first year in college, I had just moved from my home country and had no friends here. As a result, I started hanging out with some guys I met from a fraternity. They were the "cool" dudes who knew where parties and girls were at. One day, they started talking to me about frat life, and how it was going to be good for me to join" as it would build my character and make me a stronger man. I asked them to give more detail about what they meant, and one of them said: "You see all of the girls from our Sister Sorority? You wil get any of them you want if you join our fraternity. They come to our parties, and none of us leave without getting laid. They get fucking drunk and ready for anything." In fact, the other guy said with a mischievous smile that part of the initiation included a special gift from one of the Sorority girls. They were all serious and secretive, and frankly all of that scared the hell out of me. I later thought they were just trying to impress me. As time went by and I heard other things from other acquaintances, I realized they were not.
I was left out of many events and "cool" things because I opted not to hang out with them and join their fraternity. In fact, they mocked me from time to time and it took me a while to find friends outside of those circles. However, many guys who entered college with me succumbed to peer pressure and the idea of being a manly man and joined these groups. They were socially rewarded for supporting that crap.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)passage?
Regardless, we are at a point where "a start" is simply not good enough.
IluvPitties
(3,181 posts)It has been treated as the default form of masculinity, and anything else has been treated as a undesirable trait. Men have learned to be jerks. We are not born like that- we are driven to that by culture, and two great examples of that are high school and college culture.
In order for things to change, the process needs to begin somewhere. What this man has done by sharing his story and accepting that what he experienced and participated in as a minor was not normal, but sexual abuse, is a good start. Enough? Heck no. But a start.
In order for MLK and Malcom X to exist and have a resonating message, Booker T. Washington needed to exist decades earlier. Progress takes time.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)Don't be using that "progress takes time" line on anyone in your real life. There were times this week when, if someone had said that to me, I would have cheerfully cut his throat and painted on the walls with the blood that came out. And my story is not a fraction of the story that some women here could tell you.
Make no mistake: the way women are feeling right now, "a start" is nothing but bullshit, and "progress takes time" is just another way to pat us on the head. It just isn't good enough, so don't be one of the guys using those tired old lines.
IluvPitties
(3,181 posts)"Progress on this journey often comes in small increments. Sometimes two steps forward, one step back, compelled by the persistent effort of dedicated citizens. And then sometimes there are days like this, when that slow, steady effort is rewarded with justice that arrives like a thunderbolt." -President Obama
Squinch
(50,949 posts)IluvPitties
(3,181 posts)dawg day
(7,947 posts)The other day, a man I know and I were talking about Kavanaugh, and I said perhaps now more men would realize how very pervasive the fear of assault is in women, and he suddenly said, "I saw that when I was in high school."
Same basic situation-- some guy he knew, another jock, had cornered a girl at a party, and everyone either watched or wandered away so as not to watch. The girl (like Dr. Ford) fought the boy off and ran out of the house. No one did anything after that-- didn't yell at the boy, or check on the girl, just went back to the party. He said he hadn't thought about that in years, but now is thinking, why was he so craven? Why did he continue socializing with the boy (though he said he and his friends used to darkly mutter "rapist" when they saw him).
The reckoning is going to be difficult. But for women, this is another one of those occasions, I think, when we might have to accept that as angry as the confessions make us, as inadequate as they seem, they represent something of an advance.
Many women after the 50s went through what we called a "consciousness raising"-- we deeply thought about ourselves and the culture and what was happening to us and what we needed to change.
I don't think most men went through that, certainly not most men of that generation. They have gone through decades, many of them, sort of baffled and defensive. These don't know why women "are upset". Or they sort of know ("Of course I believe in equal rights!" , but it isn't always personal, or they don't understand how pervasive discrimination is in the culture.
So it's really entirely possible that decent men have little understanding of the rape culture and how it affects women, because many of them all along have been turning away from looking at it. I think very few of the men of my acquaintance want to even think a minute about how much they have benefitted from it (like... a coworker who always leaves work before it gets dark is not going to be as much competition for promotions).
But just as back in the 60s consciousness-raising groups, the first big step is the realization and the narration-- realizing something, and then talking about it. It's a start. I personally would let him talk and not shout at him. (Well, being the way I am, I'd probably shout at him and then think, well, that wasn't a very productive response.)
This is a hard time. I don't know how to respond in a way that won't trigger the defensiveness that is so innate in the "basically decent" <G> men I know. But I'm trying, because anger isn't going to move them/us that next step.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)culture was a figment of our imaginations and we were being hysterical.
Hopefully an acknowledgment of it can be one silver lining to come out of this very, very dark episode.
IluvPitties
(3,181 posts)This guy is reflecting on his life, and recognizing that what he thought as normal behavior is acutally sexual assault.
Don't read it woth anger; read it as a start.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)procon
(15,805 posts)And other religious institutions that promote the belief in an infallible patriarchy where men are superior to women?
Squinch
(50,949 posts)in our culture and our thinking than even religion.
IluvPitties
(3,181 posts)Most Native American groups did not think this way.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)to learn that they never raped captives. They could be as brutal as whites in their warfare, could be quite imaginative in devising horrible, inhuman tortures, but they never raped captive women. They knew those women could end up being adopted into the tribe and might become sisters or cousins or wives, so it was anathema to them.
So maybe you're right.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,696 posts)a particularly pernicious sort of male bonding more than a means of sexual gratification. This article, https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/09/brett-kavanaugh-allegations-yearbook-male-bonding.html describes how women are often sexually assaulted, or at least teased or humiliated in a sexual manner, by one or more men in front of a group of other men.
And this is what the author of the WP piece describes: sexual assault as comedy theatre produced for a male audience. The Slate article describes Kavanaugh's actions similarly:
Where does this behavior come from? Why do some boys and men derive pleasure from performing sexual acts on helpless girls and women for the purpose of amusing their friends? I don't know, but it seems to me that's where rape culture gets started. It's not about sexual gratification as much as it is for establishing an alpha position among the guys.
I remember in grade school some boys would tease me by throwing things at me, hitting me or taking something that belonged to me. This was maybe in 3rd or 4th grade, before actual sex was a thing for any of us. When I told my mother she said it was only because they liked me and didn't know how to tell me, which I knew even then was bullshit because people don't treat other people like that if they like them. But that was the line most of us teased girls got - they do it because they like you. But they always did it in front of or with the participation of other boys, and they always laughed. Why does a little boy chase a little girl with a bug or a snake, and why does he laugh, and why does it he do it with or in front of other boys? Because the girl is scared, she runs away and screams, and he thinks that's funny. And he's showing the other boys he can scare a girl and make her scream. He's not ready to start getting girls drunk at parties and sexually assaulting them for his friends' amusement, but will that come later?
That's my amateur anthropology for you, and maybe it's bullshit, but I've often wondered why little boys can be so mean to girls just for fun. Maybe they're just practicing to be Brett Kavanaughs.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)someone made me understand it.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,696 posts)I and probably most other women have experienced in some manner. Stuff like boys trying to get a glimpse of your underpants on the playground in grade school (back when we had to wear dresses), or snapping your bra in the hallways in high school. And to them it was all really funny. Why would they do that at all, except to embarrass you and thereby amuse their friends? Then you get to college and go to a frat party and maybe you get drunk or drugged and a bunch of guys do something to you. You might even be unconscious so the main purpose has nothing to do with you except as a piece of meat. It's all for the guys, to show what they can do. And these days, to make matters even worse, somebody records it on their phone and posts it on social media so all the other guys can see and laugh and enjoy.
Make it stop in grade school. Tell your little boys not to tease little girls to make their friends laugh.
JudyM
(29,250 posts)PA Democrat
(13,225 posts)The yearbook remarks were an attempt by Kavanaugh and his friends to document their right to claim top spots in the pecking order of male dominance. Likewise, consuming huge amounts of alcohol also scored you points within the "club".
There appears to be a code of silence among the participants. What happens in sexual assault club stays in sexual assault club.
Johnny2X2X
(19,066 posts)I think stories like this one could be told by too many men. Its good for the world to hear these stories because its been common for too long.
I too witnessed some things when I was young. Nothing that approached this, but definitely something with a drunk girl that we put a stop to, but still haunts me to this day. My situation wasnt with an incapacited girl, it was with a drunk girl that wasnt in control of her actions in the back seat of a car with a boy we knew. We stopped it because we knew it was wrong and about 5 minutes later the girl threw up and then passed out. We took her to her friends house and put her on a couch. The boy involved knew she was drunk, but I dont think he realized how drunk or he wouldnt have been making out with her. If we hadnt have intervened it could have turned into something worse.
This author deserves to be criticized, but I applaud him for telling this story none the less. America is in a reckoning, there are countless stories like this that need to be told. I wish this man had tried to find the victims to help them.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)have been something awful if you had not done the right thing. But you did.
Solly Mack
(90,767 posts)because I'm livid right now.
The craven bullshit mea culpa is self-serving and little else.
Solly Mack
(90,767 posts)I'm still cursing.
FakeNoose
(32,639 posts)If you have a pre-teen daughter it's time to have a talk with her right now. You can't be her "buddy" you have to be the parent and take responsibility for her safety and well-being. Always know where your daughters are and whose house they're going to. Always know how they get there and how they get home. Always know which parents are supervising the activity, and if there's no supervision then your daughter doesn't go.
If you have a pre-teen son it's time to talk with him right now. You can't be his "buddy" because you have to be the parent and take responsibility for his actions. You need to teach him how to behave with girls and how to talk to girls with respect & dignity. No private one-on-one dates until he's old enough to drive. Group activities need to have adult supervision, and no alcohol or drugs allowed at any party or group get-togethers. If the kids come to your house so that you can supervise, that's great, but you really need to SUPERVISE. No in and out activities, because that's when they smuggle in the booze and drugs. When it's an all-boy party they cannot be allowed to "sneak in" one or 2 willing girls. When it's a mixed group of boys and girls, more parents need to be there to help you supervise. When you are not home, no other kids should be allowed to come over. No exceptions!
Yes it's tough being a parent and it's hard work. Whether your own parents were strict or not, it's a different world out there now. Ask yourself if you want to be in Brett Kavanaugh's parents' shoes sitting in that hearing room and listening to all the shit he did while they failed to pay attention.
Lars39
(26,109 posts)FakeNoose
(32,639 posts)If your kid can't or won't tell you, then he/she stays home.
Lars39
(26,109 posts)MFM008
(19,814 posts)80 percent of women on the planet maybe more have experianced sexual bullies, rape, attempted rape, unwanted groping, harrassment or unwanted sexual speech. It is a worldwide culture of this behavior.
Yes, including me.