Is Franklin Graham going to Hell?

[Cyrano]

Actually, I don't believe in hell, or any of the other gory tales that some Evangelicals claim to "believe" in and constantly spew out that we evil "libruls" are going to burn for all eternity.

Franklin Graham is Billy Graham's son. Billy Graham spent his life kissing the asses of the rich and powerful. (Mostly Republicans.) He's gone now, but his son has taken up his butt kissing ritual. (Franklin and Billy knew how to use the god thing to live a life of wealth and comfort.)

He's one of Trump's most favored Jeebus freaks and Trump absolutely loves it when a "man of god" like Graham, stops by to kiss his ass.

Graham has weighed in on the Kavanaugh disaster. And, of course, he thinks that Kavanaugh should be seated on the Supreme Court where he can carry on the mission of Jeebus and extreme right wing Evangelical Americans, -- most of whom rational people consider to be insane.

So go for it, Franklin. Keep your lips glued to Trump's ass. And when he's gone, keep yourself in the good graces of the fascist party and wait until they get another one of their's in the White House. After all, it's your job to associate whatever lunatic is in charge of America with your version of some wingnut "magic, invisible" being that you've chosen as your god.

Oh, and by the way, about that heaven/hell thing you spend so much time talking about. I guess you believe that kissing up to what most people consider to be pure evil, is your pathway to that heaven you believe in.

On Edit: Umm, Franklin, what if it turns out that your god isn't a Republican?

[jcgoldie]

1. blasphemy

Trump was a gift from god... even Michelle Bachmann knows it.

[pangaia]

2. Graham has lived his entire life in hell.

How he ever came back as a human being is beyond me.

[democratisphere]

7. The reincarnation divisions for felines and canines rejected Franklin's request;

crummy humans was all that was left.

[crazycatlady]

63. mosquitoes were taken?

[democratisphere]

64. ******SMACK!******

Never stood a chance with mosqeeters either.

[Mariana]

71. You can't be serious.

If anyone has been favored by God in this life, it's Franklin Graham.

[MineralMan]

3. No such place. Franklin Graham is creating his own Hell on Earth.

He doesn't believe that Hell exists any more than I do, and I'm a firm atheist.

[Mariana]

73. Well, it isn't Hell for him, is it?

He's a very rich, white, heterosexual, Protestant Christian male US citizen. There is absolutely nothing hellish about Franklin Graham's life.

[MineralMan]

74. But he has to live in his own head.

No matter how he rationalizes things, he knows. I truly believe that. He just chooses to do the wrong things, again and again. Someday, there will come an internal reckoning. At age 73, I find myself looking back more and more on my life and assessing my decisions and actions. I haven't found anything that is particularly troubling. I look more and more closely as I grow older, too.

The same will not be true for Franklin Graham and his ilk, I believe. As they assess their lives, and compare them to what they know to be the way they should have lived, they will pay a price for what they have done. I believe that. Franklin Graham know the words Jesus was supposed to have said. He has professed belief in those words for a very long time. When he assesses his life, he will find it wanting.

Unless one drops dead suddenly and unexpectedly, there is a reckoning internally.

This is something I believe is true for everyone. I have lived my life knowing that there will be such a reckoning. It's all good, pretty much, for me. I've tried my entire life to do no harm to others and to help when I can. I could have done better, but I did not do badly. Franklin Graham will not have the benefit of that when he faces that internal reckoning.

This is what I believe. This is the basis for my ethical compass. It comes from long thought and consideration, along with a study of morals and ethics of many cultures.

[onecaliberal]

4. God is not a Republican and if franklin ever bothered to read that bible he would damn sure be under

The impression that he is going to Hell.

[A HERETIC I AM]

16. "God is not a Republican"

Perhaps not, but he sure as hell is a genocidal manic

[hlthe2b]

5. Well, he's deserved it, every since he gave a disgusting convocation at Columbine Memorial in 1999

Basically as much as stating all the non-Xian victims were going to hell. It was supposed to be a ecumenical and inclusive event. It was not and I recall the anger of Jewish and other families.

Since then, I dearly hope there is a hell for Franklin.

[SWBTATTReg]

6. I think that Graham jr. has a lot to learn about human compassion and so forth...

I wonder where he'll learn it? He already so called in the thick of saving everyone!

[Autumn]

8. According to the bible Franklin Graham and other evangelicals ARE going to hell.

They have caused so many to lose faith and turn away from religion by their actions and deeds.

Jesus said to His disciples, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come, but woe to the one through whom they come! It would be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and to be thrown into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble."

[Nevilledog]

9. Yes.

[UTUSN]

10. Do we get to vote?!1

[dchill]

52. If you have Valid ID - and are the right kind of people.

Sure.

[Mariana]

11. He is a Christian, and Christians are saved from that.

Most varieties of Christianity teach that salvation is based on faith in Christ alone, and not on works.

[trueblue2007]

13. Who says he is a Christian?

[Mariana]

14. Who says he isn't?

We can't read his mind, so we can't judge whether his faith is genuine. He has a huge number of followers. They think he's a Christian, and they send lots of money because they want him to keep spreading his Christian message.

[theophilus]

44. Mr. Graham does not act like a Christian, imo.

Salvation from sin and the resulting right resulting relationship with God is based on faith in what work that Christ did here on earth. However.....The teachings of the New Testament are clear in showing that even those who become Christians can be found wanting at judgement. We will be judged according to our works.

The one commandment that Christians are called upon to obey is "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love is what we are going to be judged by. If Mr. Graham is actually filled with hate, greed, and lies then he will be utterly destroyed after death. He will not, imo, be tormented forever. He will NOT inherit eternal life because we are told that if we do not love our brother who we can see we cannot love God who we cannot see.

I would not trade places with Mr. Graham. I would imagine that his father would not be pleased by his conduct.

Those who claim Christianity and do not obey the commandment of Jesus are pretty much hopeless cases. There is no eternal safety if we act against the wishes of our Lord.

[northoftheborder]

54. "...by their works you shall know them..."

[atreides1]

59. There's a debate...

...on the whole faith versus works concept!

And I question Graham's so called faith in Christ! His words show that he puts faith in those who agree with him, those that he can hand money to, those he can bring votes for!

Franklin Graham has more faith in his own abilities to push an agenda, then he does in Christ...which makes his "Christianity" questionable!!

But these are just my opinions based on watching and listening to Graham!!!

[Mariana]

62. Yes, there is a debate, because the book is so unclear

on whether salvation is based on faith, or on works, or on some combination of them.

Also, does intention matter? It's entirely possible that Graham and his followers honestly believe he's doing exactly what God wants him to do, but they are wrong and God actually disapproves of Graham's behavior. What happens then?

[icaria]

76. Faith in Supply Side Jesus probably won't save him though. /nt

[trueblue2007]

12. PROBABLY

[madamesilverspurs]

15. Not my call.

But if it were . . .



.

[Girard442]

17. People like Graham are either closet atheists, or...

...their grasp of what their religion teaches is so wrong-headed that they have to be seen as mentally incompetent.

[Mariana]

29. Why would you think they are atheists?

Do you think all their followers are closet atheists and/or mentally incompetent as well? The flavor of Christianity preached by Graham and others like him is extremely popular among Christians in the US.

[Girard442]

33. From Matthew 5, KJV:

1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

If you can read that and then go support Donald Trump, either you don't really believe it or there's something seriously wrong with your brain.

[Mariana]

35. And if that were the whole of the book, I would agree with you.

However, the Bible is a big ass book with a lot of contradictory shit in it. Every Christian picks and chooses which parts of the book to pay attention to and which parts to ignore. If the rules in it were clear, there wouldn't be thousands of different denominations of Christianity.

You didn't answer the question about the millions of followers of Graham and his clones. Are all of them fakers and/or crazies?

[Girard442]

37. Well, if you don't make an effort to understand Christ's overall message...

...then you might as well just go drown everybody that pisses you off. Totally biblical.

[Mariana]

50. Well, that's the kind of thing God does

although the story doesn't say he only drowned the people who pissed him off, does it? No, he drowned everyone, including the women and children and slaves, who had no choices. That's the "loving" god the Christians worship. No wonder guys like Graham have so many followers.

[calimary]

56. This is one of those Gospel passages that phonies like Franklin Graham

NEVER seem to remember. When’s the last time any of us heard any of them quote this bit of Scripture?

Or the story of Jesus and the rich young man? Rich young man approached Jesus asking about joining His movement. Jesus tells him to go and sell all he has and give the money to the poor and then come and join up. The story ends with the rich young man going away, sad.

Or the story about the rich dude who sashays down the center aisle in church with big money bags to set down at the altar right in front of everybody so they wouldn’t miss it, versus the little belt widow who hid in the shadows, embarrassed that she only had a couple of pennies to donate because that was all she had. And whose offering was more pleasing to God? HERS. NOT the rich dude’s.

Or the recommendation of Jesus that when you pray, go into the closet and do it, where only God sees you and hears you. Because it’s NOT about making a big public show to demonstrate how supposedly “holy” you are.

Or the lesson about how it’s easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Does anyone ever remember hearing any of these bigtime televangelists with their earthly empires repeating THESE passages from Scripture? Probably not. I’ve never heard any of them focus on these Teachings. They seem to have other priorities.

[StarryNite]

18. Millions of Americans Believe God Made Trump President

Millions of Americans Believe God Made Trump President

"There will be no point at which Trump’s most loyal evangelical and charismatic supporters declare they have had enough. Because to do so would be to admit that they were wrong, that God wasn’t behind Trump’s election, and that their Holy Spirit radar might be on the fritz. That it was, after all, about something as temporal and banal as hating his Democratic rival."

[link:https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/01/27/millions-of-americans-believe-god-made-trump-president-216537|

[NCjack]

19. If only Franklin and Donald go hand-in-hand to hell or heaven, and

Franklin has to kiss Donald's butt for eternity.

[Iggo]

21. Then howcome they don't believe their god made Obama president?

Weird.

[Mariana]

36. Few Christians will tolerate a god who disagrees with them.

They hated Obama and we know perfectly well why. However, the why doesn't really matter in this context. They hated Obama and therefore God had to hate Obama, too. They love Trump, therefore God must love Trump. Etc.

[Mariana]

30. The majority of Christians who voted in 2016 cast their ballots for Trump.

80ish percent of white Evangelicals went for Trump, but it's not all down to them. Among Christians of all flavors it was more than 50 percent.

[Iggo]

20. He doesn't believe in hell.

But he sure counts on a shit-ton of people who do.

[msongs]

22. what does his bible say about heaven, rich people, camels, eyes of needles? nt

[Donkees]

23. ''Cosmic Narcissistic Personality Disorder (An Assessment) ''

Excerpt:

Cosmic Narcissistic Personality Disorder (An Assessment)

The cosmic narcissist displays a grandiose sense of self-importance as witnessed by the rigid belief that their particular brand of religious faith is ultimately the only correct one, which is taken as evidence that they have been granted first-class status in the eyes of a supreme being, the only opinion of which truly concerns them. This sense of importance is often displayed outwardly by arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes. Extreme examples of such outward displays of haughtiness can be witnessed in the behavior of certain televangelists and Christian fundamentalists (e.g., Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson, Joel Osteen, etc). Most cosmic narcissists, however, display such arrogant behaviors in more subtle ways. A possible exception to this rule is frequently witnessed during circumstances where the individual’s faith is being directly challenged by others.

A certain percentage of cosmic narcissists attempt to hide their grandiose sense of self-importance by actively engaging in behavior that most interpret as acts of piety, compassion for others, and/or selflessness. In such cases, the individual’s actions should rarely be taken at face value. When a cosmic narcissist is doing charity work for someone ‘in need,’ for example, they are implicitly putting themselves above those who they claim to be helping in a selfless manner. This type of ‘charity’ is often guided by the cosmic narcissist’s unconscious motivation to inflate his/her sense of self-importance. In such cases, charity simply masquerades as ego boosting.

http://inebriateddiscourse.blogspot.com/2009/06/cosmic-narcissism-new-psychological.html

[lunatica]

24. Nah. He going to reincarnate as a woman

For the next 5 lifetimes. And as a gay man for another 5 too. In a holy roller Evangelical family each time.


He’s due for some karmic adjustment.

[smirkymonkey]

43. +1000

I like the way you think.

[Demonaut]

25. his god is a republican...satan

[uriel1972]

46. Hey don't diss Satan...

His role in the bible is shown as doing God's work... In fact in the Story of Job, he is under God's strict instruction at all times.

In fact he does a hell of a lot less smiting and such than the Big Boy himself.. in fact he seems a quite benign fello in comparison.

[Raine]

26. Not for me to say

who's condemned to hell and who isn't.

[samnsara]

27. hope not...as an atheist i hope he goes to NOTHINGNESS

[davsand]

28. Wouldn't bother me if he goes to hell.

Not for any of us to decide the issue, really.

Nobody really knows for sure, if it exists. Under the moral logic he tries to espouse, he thinks it could happen for other people, so you'd HOPE he'd have contemplated it for himself.




Laura

[Mariana]

34. The whole point of being a Christian in the first place is to avoid hell.

Most denominations teach that salvation can only come from faith in Christ, and that behavior has nothing whatsoever to do with it. I believe Graham claims to subscribe to this popular idea. So, if Graham has faith in Christ, why should he contemplate hell for himself?

[Crunchy Frog]

31. He obviously doesn't believe in Hell.

If he did, he would be sweating bullets right now.

He's just another opportunist using religion to manipulate the rubes.

[Mariana]

38. There's no reason to believe his faith is not genuine.

If he truly believes he's doing God's will, why would he have any fear of going to hell?

[Crunchy Frog]

40. Because it's pretty much the opposite of what's actually in the book

That he claims to base his beliefs on.

If I were a true believer and knew I was doing the opposite of what my holy book was instructing, I would be pretty worried about the consequences.

To me the evidence suggests that most of these people are cynical manipulators rather than true believers.

I don't have a problem if your impressions differ from mine, and hope that you don't have a problem if mine differ from yours.

[Mariana]

41. It's an awfully big book, and it isn't exactly clear and concise.

If it was easy to understand from reading the book what, exactly, Christians are supposed to believe and do, there wouldn't be so many different denominations of Christianity. An awful lot of people agree with Graham's interpretation.

[Crunchy Frog]

42. As I said. Your interpretations differ from my own, and I would hope that

you would be okay with that. IMO, the "Christian" part of the Bible is not really all that unclear, though its meaning has been very successfully obfuscated by some very cynical people with their own agendas.

Be that as it may, you seem to have a more difficult time imagining someone cynically exploiting religion to manipulate others than I do. I may simply have a naturally more cynical nature than you, and therefore be less likely to take someone's word at face value. Especially someone who is associated with as much raw corruption as Franklin Graham.

This is just my best interpretation of the evidence that I've observed, though, and nobody can truly know what's in another person's heart.

I hope we can simply agree to disagree on this.

[Mariana]

45. Again, if the "Christian" part of the Bible is clear

why are there so many different denominations, with wildly different beliefs and practices?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Graham is a good person. However, I do not engage in the bigotry of classifying all evil people as non-Christian by definition. There are plenty of thoroughly evil people whose faith in Christ is genuine and who are utterly convinced they are doing God's will.

Do you believe all of the millions and millions followers of Graham and the many other preachers like him are lying about their faith, too? Most of them have read the "Christian" part of the Bible. Somehow, they've come to the same conclusion as Graham and his clones about what Christianity is supposed to be.

[Crunchy Frog]

48. No. I think that they're simple minded, easily manipulated, rubes.

And I don't think most of them really read the Bible, at least not in any coherent way, letting their pastors do their thinking and interpreting for them.

Can you agree to disagree, or are you going to continue beating this dead horse with me?

[Mariana]

53. Well, you haven't explained why there are so many denominations

so I'm not even sure that we disagree. I gather that you think everyone who interprets the book differently than you do is either an atheist or a simple-minded, easily manipulated rube?

[Crunchy Frog]

61. No and I'm not going to.

My views are complex, I don't really have the time and energy to write them all down and I don't feel like I owe you an accounting of them, especially as I feel you're trying to play a game of "gotcha" rather than have a discussion in good faith.

This is going to be my last post to the thread. You can either have the last word by attributing views to me that I probably don't have, or you can let it go and simply accept the fact that we have different interpretations of the evidence. Your choice.

[Mariana]

72. I'll just repeat your own words, and mine.

Yours: "He obviously doesn't believe in Hell. If he did, he would be sweating bullets right now. He's just another opportunist using religion to manipulate the rubes."

Mine: "I gather that you think everyone who interprets the book differently than you do is either an atheist or a simple-minded, easily manipulated rube?"

I'm just not seeing much disagreement here.

[Crunchy Frog]

75. No. Sorry. Wrong.

I made it very clear to you in an earlier post that my views are complicated and would take more time and energy than I'm willing to spend. But you persist in trying to reduce my views to a couple of lines that I've posted to a discussion board and then keep trying to debate me on them. I consider this to be borderline harassment at this point.

I see from your profile that you are very fond of posting in the religion group. I can only conclude that that's why you're so insistent on trying to engage me in a debate that I have no interest in joining. There is a good reason why in depth discussions and debates about religion are kept in the religion group, and kept out of General Discussion.

If you wish to participate in this type of exchange, please do so in the appropriate location, and with people who are actually interested in engaging with you.

[Mariana]

78. Borderline harassment? Is that like persecution?

You know exactly how to end this conversation if you aren't enjoying it. Your own words, again: "This is going to be my last post to the thread." Except it wasn't, was it?

You also said: "You can either have the last word by attributing views to me that I probably don't have, or you can let it go and simply accept the fact that we have different interpretations of the evidence. Your choice." So, you invited me to respond to your "last post on the thread", but now you're complaining because I did so, and accusing me of "borderline harassment". That's ridiculous.

[LanternWaste]

51. His worldly concerns and his avarice give me pause his faith is sincere.

My opinion is he's doing man's work, rather than God's will, for the sake of thirty silvers.

"You will know them by their fruits...."

[Mariana]

55. Why do he and others like him have so many followers?

Why is Christ's message so vague that guys like Graham can suck in so many millions of people and lead them astray?

[JHB]

32. If you believe that sort of thing, absolutely.

If I weren't an atheist, I'd argue he's already on the infernal payroll. What better way to lure souls to hell than to convince them of the righteousness of obvious sins?

[TheBlackAdder]

39. No. He knows that both Heaven and Hell do not exist.

[uriel1972]

47. Evidence? or wishful thinking... hmmmm.. nt

[TheBlackAdder]

60. Past religious studies. Billy was early adopter of the Cult of Infallibility, which destroyed church

.

The cult movement gained traction in the late 70s and early 80s, forcing a purge of the educated instructors and doctors at the various religious schools and churches. You either adopted that the Bible is infallible or you were forced out. Most of the educated left the church, because they knew the Bible isn't infallible and refused to sign on to this false premise, giving us what we have now--a bunch of churches with idiot charlatans operating them, with no education or a perverted education that is not based in centuries of biblical research. This started to be adopted by other, non-Evangelical churches, even though there are hundreds of errors and contradictions in the Bible. They scrambled to change it from Divinely created to Divinely inspired, to account for the errors--trying to add a human element. But, by doing so, introduces fallibility into the Bible. This is a struggle they fight to this day, and make up fictitious backstories to try to explain the errors, which have no basis in the Bible.

Just remember, when a family professes to be too pious, it's generally the inverse.

.

[uriel1972]

67. This does not prove your assertion...

That the malignant, ingrown toenail that he is does not follow your preferred brand of Christianity does not mean he does not believe in heaven or hell. Plenty of people have maintain contradictory positions, fully believing them all.

Point me to some solid evidence that the *migtn* DOES NOT believe in heaven and hell, a primary source and not your judgement based on his to your mind flawed theology, then I might concede the point.

His hateful views does not mean he does not believe that he and his are going to heaven and the rest of us hell. It may in fact, make it more likely that he has blind faith in his views.

No offense, but if you make blanket assertions, without evidence, someone will push back and today that is me.

ps: no.2 is the best series, followed by goes forth. That is the infallible truth

[TheBlackAdder]

68. There's no direct proof, other than he and his father's perversion of Christianity over the years.

.

I love these theological arguments where concrete proof is needed, when heaven and hell or God is vaporware.

None of those have been proven, yet so many grasp onto that concept.... faith.


It's funny how people use faith as a tool to justify things.

.

[uriel1972]

70. Break out the bagpipes...

The "No True Scotsman" argument seems to be in use here.

When people say "Perversion of Christianity", their opponents can easily apply the same label. As you say, the bible is contradictory and its history so contested and translated, how the heck are we going to say, what is the true Christianity(tm)?

That you don't like their brand, doesn't make them atheists. It's extraordinary offensive to us atheists when people say these things.

"Oooooh, they are so hateful and vile, they MUST be atheists."

If you substitute any other religious group for atheists, you would get an extraordinary amount of push back, but atheists nah they're an evil bunch, so what?

[spanone]

49. these evangelical grifters will be UNDER hell.

[HopeAgain]

57. He's already in hell

I believe he's probably profoundly unhappy. Those sitting in constant judgment of others. with egos that constantly have to be fed by claiming righteousness while living in excess on the backs of others are not happy people. They know, deep inside who they are and what they do. They double down on their hatred and self-righteousness in hope they will find contentment and self satisfaction yet they find none.

I believe that was what Jesus meant by people suffering by not finding the Kingdom of God

[Gothmog]

58. Yes

[Saboburns]

65. God told me that Franklin Graham is indeed a Goat Fucker.

Verily.

Late last week God sent me a vision. In this vision God revealed to me that Franklin Graham fucks goats.

This vision also revealed to my eyes the shocking fact that not only is Franklin Graham a Goat Fucker, but he indeed enjoys getting fucked by goats.

[Initech]

66. Well he's an architect of the hell we're living in now, so...

Only fitting that he answers to Satan.

[mfcorey1]

69. In a red rowboat!!!!

[gordianot]

77. If you read Synoptic, Gnostic, Coptic scriptures Franklin Graham is precisely what Jesus rejected.

Franklin Graham it seems to me the direct opposite of Jesus as portrayed in various version of Christian scriptures. It is my opinion a majority of what are called today Fundamentalist Christians would be willing to crucify Jesus if they were in the presence of the historical middle eastern Jesus teaching what is definitely even by today’s standards a radical philosophy. There is a pretty good chance that Graham would have been ran out of the Temple by the Jesus of Synoptic gospels. The Jesus of Gnostic traditions would have probably ignores him.

If I were ever to meet Franklin Graham the first words it of my mouth would be “go to hell.”.

[whistler162]

79. Biblically speaking

.... YES...... https://www.openbible.info/topics/false_prophets