Bernie Sanders Voters Helped Trump Win and Here's Proof

[WhiteTara]

https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-trump-2016-election-654320

Bernie Sanders supporters switched their allegiance to Donald Trump in large enough numbers last November to sway the election for the real estate billionaire, according to an analysis of voter data released Tuesday by the blog Political Wire. Since Trump’s shock victory over Hillary Clinton, much discussion has focused on the degree to which passionate Sanders supporters’ refusal to embrace Clinton led to the Republican winding up in the White House.

According to the analysis of the 2016 Cooperative Congressional Election Survey, fewer than 80 percent of those who voted for Sanders, an independent, in the Democratic primary did the same for Clinton when she faced off against Trump a few months later. What’s more, 12 percent of those who backed Sanders actually cast a vote for Trump.

Some asked for more detail on how Sanders primary voters behaved in general. This graphic shows this, including small % who abstained 2/n pic.twitter.com/iOjKr7eoYJ

interesting statstics

[shraby]

1. Face it, the Green Party took enough votes in the states that mattered that would have

put Hilary over the top.

I just googled and I was wrong. Sorry bout that.

[JackInGreen]

3. Hell no

If they can lay on the trump brush they will. Like deepstate will forever be a right wing excuse for any loss, our party dividers will use what's at hand themselves.

[lagomorph777]

222. Why are some people still trying to expel Democrats who voted "wrong" in the 2016 primary?

Real Democrats wouldn't try to divide Democrats, would they? What happened to the big tent?

[still_one]

10. Yes. Every Democrat running in those critical swing states lost to the incumbent, establishment,

republican, and those Democrats running for Senate were progressive by any standard.

Looking at the final election results in those swing states, the percentage that went to Jill Stein without a doubt not only contributed to trump's win in those state, but also to those Democrats running for Senate.

While no doubt there were other factors at play, including Russian interference, the Comey release of the letter to the republicans 11 days before the election, etc. this was a significant part of it.

[Eliot Rosewater]

2. Yikes

[Tom Rinaldo]

213. First off, non voters handed the election to Trump

Here's a thread about it. THAT is worth a Yikes!:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211062132

Second, there are always defections between parties between a primary and the General Election. Hillary Clinton primary voters in 2008 defected to the Republican Party twice as much as did Bernie Sanders primary voters in 2016.

And to those who say yeah, but that didn't cost Obama the election, that's like saying no one should be prosecuted for attempted murder if the attempt to murder is made but does not succeed. Those Clinton voters who voted against Obama in November of 2008 tried to elect McCain over Clinton. They didn't learn that they failed until after their votes were tallied.

There are always people who do not support the winner of a primary if their chosen candidate wasn't that winner.

[lamp_shade]

4. Two of my nieces are among that 12%.

Both are registered independents and were huge bernie fans... disliked Clinton... hated trump... but voted for him anyway.

[joshcryer]

8. How do they feel about that?

That's crazy, but understandable, I mean, 40 years of GOP propaganda making Clinton completely dislikeable for no freaking good reason made her just hard to like.

But it's still crazy.

[lamp_shade]

21. Neither has brought it up since.

Both are in their 40s, have no interest in politics and are totally uninformed... yet have liberal views on things like abortion and equal rights, immigration. However, their father is a whackjob trumpie. They voted as daddy told them to. The saddest part is... I'm the one who pressured them into registering to vote (for the first time in their lives). Little did I know. In the meantime they moved to another state. I checked. Neither is registered. Hah!

[sheshe2]

32. Wow, lampshade.

No words for what they did and now not even registered to vote.

Sigh.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

82. There's so much wrong with them that it's hard to know where to start.

But I'll start with: in their 40s and vote as daddy told them to.

I guess if they were my nieces I'd stop encouraging them to register to vote.

[RhodeIslandOne]

247. Good, they should not be voting

They quite frankly sound stupid, as is anyone who votes against themselves.

[LiberalFighter]

142. I think if people had taken the time to check out both candidates

there would be no doubt Hillary would be the better candidate. Not sure that enough voters go through that effort. They would have found out that the slams on Hillary were not true.

[joshcryer]

144. Yeah, if you watched one single roundtable she did.

Just one. She did over a hundred of them. They were all broadcast on CSPAN. History will not treat the American people kindly for their vote. Most qualified candidate in history.

[LiberalFighter]

214. I couldn't get over that. I heard so many speeches and discussions.

She was a thousand times more qualified than Trump and many others vying for the position. Yet so many were blind. She knew what she was talking about and understood the complexities of the problem while presenting rational solutions.

[grantcart]

178. Let's remember the context. "Grab them by their pussies"

That's all anybody needed to get to the heart of the matter.

Getting enough information wasn't the problem.

[sheshe2]

24. What they said and did does not make any sense.

They:

disliked Clinton... hated trump... but voted for him anyway.

You dislike one and hate another and then vote for the one you hate. Their is a huge difference between dislike and hate.

I am so sorry lamp_shade, this must be hard for you.

[lamp_shade]

26. See my post #21

[Cha]

53. That's some deep brainwashing.. they sucked in

all the hateful lies about Hillary.

lampshade

[spooky3]

80. with a garnish of misogyny nt

[Cha]

83. Oh yeah.. the fucking brainwashers went at Hillary Full Bore and

she still WON.

[onetexan]

187. Had dinner w a coworker yesterday who was like that

Bible thumper w a kind heart, but intensely disliked Hillary & disliked trump but made every excuse to justify her vote for the Idiot &what he continues to do now, no matter how horrible. These people are brainwashed.

[Cha]

190. Yeah, it's sickening and disheartening.

They let themselves be full bore brainwashed because something about him appeals to them on some level.

That's my theory. I'm just glad I'm not one of them.

[Thekaspervote]

165. Yup!! And if bernie doesn't stay away from the 2020 race... the dye may very well be cast

[Laura PourMeADrink]

254. Totally get your point...but to Julius Caesar

Alea iacta est ("The die is cast&quot is a Latin phrase attributed by Suetonius (as iacta alea est [ˈjakta ˈaːlea est]) to Julius Caesar on January 10, 49 B.C. as he led his army across the Rubicon river in Northern Italy.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

172. Do they at least have any regrets??

[elleng]

5. Thanks so much, we REALLY want and need to see more of this,

keep it up.

[still_one]

12. This has nothing to do with Bernie. Bernie endorsed the Democratic nominee. This has EVERYTHING to

do with those self-identified progressives who refused to vote for the Democratic nominee by either voting third party or not voting.

and yes it is important to remember this, because the actions of those self-identified progressives not only contributed to trump in the WH, and the lost of Congress, but lost us two SC nominations that should have been ours, and the unravelling of everything from Civil Rights, Women's Rights, Workers Rights, environmental rights, etc.

It is important so we recognize the false prophets, and yes, the Jill Stein's and Susan Sarandon's were false prophets, and got more coverage and airtime than they deserved, and duped a lot of naive people.

So it doesn't happen again, and some people will not be deceived again

[elleng]

19. You may be right, but the OP SAYS 'Bernie Sanders Helped Trump Win'

so it's another of the huge numbers of Bernie bashing posts around here, and I'm SICK of them.

If so many folks have nothing better to do, we are doomed.

Thanks for trying to moderate, still_one.

[still_one]

25. Actually it said "Bernie Sanders' voters", and no doubt that was used to create the typical sparing

that periodically goes on here, but I understand your point, and frustration because of the inference.

I don't know what the remedy is so we work together, but we better do it damn quick

[elleng]

28. DAMN quick!

[Agschmid]

61. +1

[lapucelle]

185. That's the headline of the Newsweek story cited. N/T

[justie18]

35. Another view

Bernie was openly hostile to Hillary and planned to contest the primary results up until the convention. He acted like a spoiled brat during the convention as well. He should have conceded to Hillary months before the convention. He made a minimal effort at unity.

[lunamagica]

45. This

[Cha]

57. Exactly. How

refreshing.. the post isn't trying to REWRIGHT History.

Luna

[sheshe2]

58. This

[Cha]

69. Whoa!

******* *******.

[sheshe2]

88. Yup.

Whoa.

[Cha]

95. That poster who's claiming "false narrative"

needs to see that.

That's just one shot.. but we all remember what went on.. they do Not get to rewrite history.

[sheshe2]

104. Fact, Cha.

they do Not get to rewrite history.

[JHan]

209. Body language is a funny thing..

It speaks louder than words.

I still remember this, there was no reason for it - it's tied to the current inconsequential changes to Super Delegates, to assuage the fact that he lost. Perez is now in a tough position because it's not people like me who "can't get over 2016"...

And coming to think of it, I can't recall a single wholesome endorsement from Sanders, there was always a kvetchy vibe around his endorsements. Telling me she's technically better than trump or even worse, that he'll hold her accountable just reinforced the idea that she wasn't trustworthy. So while I don't hold any group or one person entirely responsible, such lukewarm questionable "endorsements" and refusal to concede tell a story all on their own.

Several times in this thread, DU'ers suggest this is divisive stuff, but you can't complain about Kremlin interference without acknowledging the mindset which made that interference so successful. And this was all part of it.

[Agschmid]

62. False narrative.

[Cha]

66. Actually it's exactly what happened.

[Agschmid]

67. No, it's someone adding their own spin on it.

Read the whole post again.

[Cha]

79. I know exactly what the post stated and I agree wholeheartedly.

[Gothmog]

155. I have read the entire thread and the articles

I agree with your analysis Cha

[Cha]

159. That means a Lot, Goth.. and You were at the Convention!

You saw it first hand.

[Gothmog]

197. The convention was not a fun experience

The sanders delegates/campaign really were proud of a planned stunt to boo Congressman John Lewis on the first night of the convention. This was a stunt planned well in advance because the Clinton campaign learned of it and warned all of her delegates of this stunt well in advance. Sanders was evidently asked to stop this stunt and refused.

The sanders delegates were happy to disrupt the convention and try to hurt Hillary Clinton in the general election.

[lunamagica]

113. Nothing false about it. It is what happened, in a nutshell

[Cha]

160. +Millions!

[still_one]

86. I have my personal bias, and was and am a strong Hillary supporter, however since the midterms are

coming quickly upon us, and most likely the feelings are not going to change between now and after the midterms, in my perspective it would probably me more productive to engage in this AFTER the midterms.

I view this in a similar way to the decisions on impeachment. It might serve a cathartic purpose, but unless we are able to at least win one of the Houses in the midterm it would end up being an academic exercise

[lagomorph777]

223. So there's a GOOD time to divide Democrats?

After the mid-terms, before, whatever. People who divide Democrats are NOT acting in the interest of the Party nor the nation. They are acting in somebody's interest though.

[still_one]

231. That isn't what I said, but thank you for distorting and misrepresenting what I said. Democrats

disagreeing with each other IS NOT DIVIDING DEMOCRATS!!!

The DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS NOT A MONOLITHIC PARTY, as you would seem to imply with your slight toward me advocating trying to divided Democrats.

Democrats have different VISIONS on the party, and Democrats have been debating those visions for some time.

That is a major difference between Democrats and republicans. Democrats recognize those differences and work together to ease them

[lagomorph777]

238. The OP claims that Bernie voters helped Trump.

Possibly some Bernie voters were never Democrats; they were not going to vote Dem in any case. Most Bernie voters eventually supported Hillary, and it is divisive to keep pointing the finger unfairly at any Dem who voted for the "wrong" candidate in the primaries.

[still_one]

241. Yes, and there were some Sander's voters who refused to vote for the Democratic nominee. The

figures I have seen previously were up to 10%.

The fact is, as you said, the vast majority of those who supported Bernie in the primary did vote for the Democratic nominee.

The only folks I personally have an issue with are those who refused to vote for the Democratic nominee in 2016

I really don't think we disagree on this.

As for primary discusscions and debates, there are legitimate issues between Democrats, such as the caucus, open primaries, etc., and while those are mostly determined at the state level, Democrats are going to disagree with each other on it. The same with SD.

Those issues are going to be debated among us one way or another. I just do not think they will serve much purpose 2 months before the midterm elections

[lagomorph777]

243. We definitely agree more than disagree.

[MrsCoffee]

193. And has continued to act that way.

What a joke he made out of the so called “Unity Tour”.

When someone shows you who they really are, believe them.

[mountain grammy]

198. I do believe this is the Moscow line..

but you'll find a few here to agree.. keep it up..

[shanny]

38. I'd say it has everything to do with some of the voters that Bernie attracted and Hillary couldn't.

Assuming those voters were somehow actual Democrats who would have voted for Hillary--that those were really her/Democratic votes--were it not for Bernie is just whackadoodle. Odds are they would have stayed home without a green party candidate.

[ProfessorGAC]

195. I Was One Of Those

I wanted vision and less wonkiness as a winning strategy. I wanted a stronger pursuit of economic leveling.

Yet, when the primaries were over, i never looked back. It was HRC all the way. There was never a thought about staying home, or write in, or protest vote. Those three options were stupid, stupid, and stupid.

And i'm not close to being alone. There were millions of people who preferred a more daring message, but once the nominee was settled, the discussion about whom one would vote was over.

Alas, not only is it not over, it's not even over at DU.

[shanny]

205. I was too.

But not everyone was.

[mountain grammy]

199. I honestly believe Hillary won Colorado

thanks to the many newly registered voters who were inspired by Bernie Sanders. I also think that's why she got 3 million more votes overall. She won because of Bernie Sanders. The election of trump was a fraud.

[shanny]

208. I agree.

And the fraud continues. I realize that in theory it is a bad idea to challenge the validity of elections, but I would certainly like to see our party pushing HARD for ballot integrity, unhackable machines (if we must have them at all), national standards, etc. It is way past time.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

230. Thank you for pointing that out... not that Bernie will EVER get credit for ANYTHING from some here.

[RhodeIslandOne]

248. This

Trump was boosted by Ruskie hackers. They would have found however many votes they needed.

[regnaD kciN]

161. More to the point, this is a year-old article, and got thoroughly debated back then...

...both here and in other analyses.

So, what's the point in digging it up again, only weeks before an election in which we need to unite to begin to take back control from 45? I don't know, it sure seems like some people have a vested interest in making sure those on the center and those on the left are more angry at each other than at Trump at this important time...

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

175. I think the point is pretty clear.

[Kahuna7]

188. When you convince your followers that your opponent is not worthy

of your vote, you can't unring that bell. That's just the way it is. Those people who showed up at the DNC convention to protest at Bernie's urging, were never going to be persuaded to vote for Hillary. Especially with Bernie sitting and scowling the whole time to show his displeasure. Bernie wanted a remake of Chicago 1968 and he got it.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

6. Someone here doesn't like Newsweek, albeit it's an old article. nt

[mcar]

7. From Bernie to Dotard?

Someone please tell me how this had nothing to do with sexism.

[Rural_Progressive]

40. Of course it had something to do with sexism

It also had to do with racism.

At the risk of getting slammed here I will put in my 2 cents worth.

Politics in this society is all about perception and not much about facts. We can all agree that Clinton had been falsely demonized by the right for over 30 years, right? What some of you have trouble understanding it doesn't matter that the demonization was false. What matters is a significant portion of the electorate bought the BS hook, line, and sinker and as a result Clinton came into the election with a huge amount of baggage attached to her.

While it has taken Donnie O to bring the low lives, scum suckers, and deplorables out of the shadows and from under the rocks they frequent, anyone who paid any attention to the dynamics of this society knew they were among us. Now those good ol' boys and gals were mightily pissed off that an uppity black man had been running "their" country for 8 years and they were just spoilin' for a fight. The Democratic Party served them up one on a platter.

I am and always will be an FDR democrat, I abhor the centralist and corporate orientation the current version of our party has embraced. I hope we can turn it back into the party of the working people of this country. That said, I will never understand why the powers that be in the party chose to ignore the risk they took in nominating a woman, any woman actually, much less one with a boat load of baggage, at a time when the nation was a polarized as it was and obviously still is. I truly believe that Clinton was highly qualified and deserved the opportunity to be president. I also know that life isn't fair and that sometimes bad timing undermines what is right and should happen.

The 2016 election was one of those times. The election was the DNC's to lose and for a variety of reasons they chose to misread the state of the nation.

I'm fine with any of you going after me for all the reasons I've already heard and read. When you get done giving me hell, take some time, and if you haven't read it check out a book called American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America by Colin Woodard. When you've finished it, get back to me and tell me you're still surprised this election was mishandled and then stolen from we, the people.

[lunamagica]

47. The voters decided they wanted Hillary as the Democratic candidate, and she won by MILLIONS

And that's why she was nominated. Do you believe TPTB should have nominated someone else after the voters decided on her?

[Cha]

183. "The Next Time Someone Tries to Tell You That Hillary..

Link to tweet

[Gothmog]

250. That is a great meme

[JHan]

76. I don't think I need point out to you..

" I will never understand why the powers that be in the party chose to ignore the risk they took in nominating a woman, any woman actually, much less one with a boatload of baggage, at a time when the nation was a polarized as it was and obviously still is. I truly believe that Clinton was highly qualified and deserved the opportunity to be president. I also know that life isn't fair and that sometimes bad timing undermines what is right and should happen. "

How much this sets women back, like myself and maybe women you know in your life, who feel the need to make a difference in politics and dare to enter the arena.

You manage in one fell swoop, to suggest that the nominee didn't deserve it, based on her gender, that the millions who voted for her counted for nothing, and that her service to both party and country count for nothing. You erased her.

You're also not the first person to have a very rosy picture of who FDR was, and I've had to point out several times in recent days that he wasn't the socialist paragon he's made out to be - but I shouldn't be surprised. This is how men in politics are lionized and women demonized. You've unintentionally made the point of the OP.

[dawg day]

134. Excellent.

[lunamagica]

138. Beautifully said, JHan!

[sheshe2]

156. I love you JHan.

Thank you.

[apcalc]

179. Spot on

[Cha]

182. Brilliantly stated, JHan!

Thank You for explaining why his post is sooo offensive to Women everywhere and through the ages!

Link to tweet

[lapucelle]

186. The 1932 platform is equally interesting

for what it excludes as well as includes.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=29595

[JHan]

203. Thank you for that..

Last edited Tue Aug 28, 2018, 03:05 PM - Edit history (1)

Compare that with the Democratic platform of 2016 and the difference couldn't be more clear.

The mythology is that FDR was a paragon of uncompromising progressivism which couldn't be further from the truth.

FDR came on the heels of an impotent Hoover administration and the Great Depression. He campaigned to clean up Government. The New Deal was full of compromises and triangulations. The word "triangulation" now triggers the usual criticism of the modern Democratic Party, with the usual Third Way critiques peppered in, but there isn't a single politician in the Senate today who hasn't triangulated. It's a fact of politics and always will be.

There's nothing in that 1932 platform about lynching - something which appalled black civil rights leaders at the time. Roosevelt didn't want to drive away Dixiecrats by engaging with race issues head-on because Dixiecrats made up the Democratic Coalition. Interesting to note too that the group which faced an electoral hit during his terms as President were the more liberal-leaning Northern Democrats.

In that 1932 platform included a promise to protect the agricultural sector but a year later the AAA was passed, where Government subsidized landowners in lieu of acreage reduction - where Landowners would deliberately not plant part of their land. The intent was to reduce surpluses and boost agriculture prices. However, this hit blacks the hardest since so many were sharecroppers and tenants - less land to till meant less income, and cut back in production meant less work. Since blacks were not represented on local committees, their concerns were ignored until the Civil Rights Act in the 60's.

generally:

", President Roosevelt and congressional leaders tailored New Deal legislation to southern preferences. They reached an implicit modus vivendi: southern civil society would remain intact and southern representatives would support the key elements of the administration's program. There would be no attempt to build a mass biracial base in the South; nor would even the most heinous aspects of regional repression, such as lynching, be brought under the rule of law. Further, sponsors fashioned key bills to avoid disturbing the region's racial civilization by employing two main policy instruments: the exclusion of agricultural and domestic labor, the principal occupational categories of blacks, from legislation, including the National Recovery Act, the Wagner Act, Social Security, and the Fair Labor Standards Act; and decentralized administration. [Source Note]"

http://scalar.usc.edu/nehvectors/stakeman/the-naacp-and-the-new-deal

but I'm told this was apparently the halcyon age of the Democratic Party.

EDIT: I don't point this stuff out because I hate FDR. The New Deal was an incredible step forward for the country. I just cannot take the mythologizing of an Individual done with the intent to deny that progress has been made post-1965.

[Me.]

227. "You Erased Her"

and done with such ease and conviction

[meadowlander]

233. The person you're responding to didn't say she didn't deserve it.

They actually said repeatedly that she did deserve it (literally and in the section you quoted "she was highly qualified and deserved the opportunity to be president" ). Their point is that the timing was bad because she was following the first African American president and a huge backlash against the left had been stoked among angry white men in response to that presidency.

Joe Biden deserved it too, but his son died of brain cancer. Does it set men back to point out that he was robbed of his best opportunity to be president by bad luck and ill political winds?

[JHan]

239. It was a gender based argument.

"Gosh we can't elect the female right now because .. look how bad the world is", mentioning her accomplishments is a further stab in the back because it adds a patronizing layer "Yes she's qualified, but you know she's a woman and that's problematic. Worse yet a woman with baggage "

It's a lesson in how we think we may mean well but end up repeating sexist propaganda which alienates women. It takes a lot of self-awareness to catch when we fall for the same terrible ideas which propagate the toxic behavior we claim we want to end and fight against. Those who defend how things are and traditionalist behavior often use these arguments " We can't possibly hire the black guy, the woman, the black woman! how will people react?" It's tempting to take a less than charitable view that it's concern trolling, but it's deeper than that in this case.

What's insane about this analysis is that the woman in question actually did win the majority of votes. Was the DNC supposed to say "Sorry Clinton is a Woman and we can't risk it?" Rather than blame the woman, look at the factors which led to a woman of substance losing an election, despite her contributions and service.

"Does it set men back to point out that he was robbed of his best opportunity to be president by bad luck and ill political winds? "

Are you arguing that men have a history of being denied political power? What are you arguing here?

[Me.]

251. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[Me.]

219. So We Should Just Nominate White Men

there are no words and that thinking is perhaps a good reason why she isn't president now despite the overwhelming number of voters who chose her over the comrade in the WH. This post is insulting and demeaning beyond belief. And God forbid any woman who thinks she can/has the right to dream about being president. And the men who run and fail to become president?

[Major Nikon]

42. Was it racism when 28% of Clinton supporters voted for McCain?

[JI7]

108. part of it, look at harriet christian.

[mythology]

141. That rather important bit of context was oddly missing from the OP

Likewise that the percentage of Sanders supporters who didn't vote for Clinton is in line with historical norms.

I'm not even particularly a Sanders supporters, but it's just not intellectually honest to present such an out of context stat.

[Major Nikon]

148. Given recent history it's far less

There's also no way to know if Bernie brought more voters to HRC than she would have had otherwise. So yeah, the whole notion is just not that solid and the OP was written for people who have more regard for what they want to hear than anything remotely approaching sound reasoning.

[radical noodle]

162. I don't think there's any proof that 28%

of Clinton supporters voted for McCain. 28% said they would in March before the election in November, but I don't think that's what happened. I've been able to find no backup for this 28% claim.

[Major Nikon]

192. Neither is there any proof that 12% of Bernie supporters voted for Trump

[radical noodle]

211. Perhaps not absolute proof but a good indication

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812242/1-in-10-sanders-primary-voters-ended-up-supporting-trump-survey-finds

Schaffner's numbers show that after a bitter Democratic primary, more than 1 in 10 of those who voted in the primaries for the very progressive Sanders ended up voting for the Republican in the general election, rather than for the Democratic candidate, Hillary Clinton.

[Major Nikon]

217. There's also a good indication more Clinton supporters voted for McCain

The question was should we blame racism for this?

[radical noodle]

255. Oh, in many cases I think that was exactly the reason

for some of the McCain votes by Hillary supporters. I supported her in the primary, but her immediate and wholehearted endorsement of him got me on board pretty quickly. Anyone who could have voted for McCain/Palin (the Palin part is the key) couldn't have been much of a Democrat.

[Omaha Steve]

244. That left a mark

[Cha]

103. I know.. that Racist Pervert!??

[NewJeffCT]

220. My guess

is that some Republican trump supporters voted for Sanders in open primaries to stir things up on the Democratic side, and then went back to Donny Dollhands for the general.

[mcar]

225. That's a good theory

[Hoyt]

9. There you go. That's a bit tough to stomach, although it's more

believable than Russian vote hacking.

[still_one]

15. Russia did interfere in certain ways, but there is no denying that this was a big factor

[Hoyt]

16. Yes, but don't believe they hacked votes. Further, anyone that believed Ruskie

lies about Clinton probably were not inclined to vote for her.

[brush]

44. They hacked into several state election systems, that's proven. I doubt they were...

just looking around. They had a reason.

It could've been to tamper with servers storing the votes, not individual vote machines.

The 77k votes, just enough to swing the election,had to have been calculated. If you have access to the servers holding the votes—easy peasy.

[Hoyt]

52. Didn't have to. 12%, or even 2%, discussed in OP accomplished

the same thing. Still have seen no evidence votes were hacked.

[brush]

72. That makes no sense.

[Hoyt]

73. Maybe you need to reread OP.

[brush]

89. Maybe you need to explain your reasoning.

[Hoyt]

99. If 2% of people who voted for Sanders voted for trump

rather than the Democratic nominee, that would have easily been enough to swing the election in those three states.

The researchers said 6 (12%/2%) times as many Sanders’ supporters did just that. Seems simple to me.

[Hoyt]

94. Do you have evidence of hundreds of people being turned away from polls?

Where I live, a handful of people complained. Turned out they were at wrong polling place, and were still given provisional ballots.

As tough as it is to accept losing to trump, people have a hard time accepting the most likely reasons — Comey, lies, lots of white wing racists voted for their boy, people stayed home because they thought Clinton had it, the OP, misogyny, . . . . . .

[mountain grammy]

202. Here's the thing about "losing to trump"

Last edited Tue Aug 28, 2018, 10:28 AM - Edit history (1)

She didn't. In PA and MI it took just a few votes per precinct to swing the vote, and that was done with interference. I also don't think FL hasn't had an honest election since 2000. Obama only won by a whisper in 2012, same with Ohio.
The fix was in in 2012, but couldn't overcome the massive turnout for Obama, but something was going on when someone with his popularity got 70 mllion votes in 2008 and that went down to 65 million in 2012. Hillary didn't have Obama's popularity, not enough to overcome a rigged system, but she did win that election.

To use this old article and lay this on Bernie Sanders is so trumplike I don't even know why I'm here sometimes.

[Hoyt]

204. We know some Sanders people voted for trump or pouted and didn't vote in general election. We know

Comey hurt Clinton's chances. We know white wing racists voted in droves. We know some Clinton supporters thought she had it because of polls and stayed home. Clinton has been swiftboated for decades. All of that adds up to what we have.

[mountain grammy]

215. Yes, she was swiftboated for decades

but no Bernie supporter I know didn't vote for her, just like you know there was no voting issue at your polling place, and, the truth is, more Americans voted for Hillary and against trump than voted for trump.

[Hoyt]

216. Well, numerous people here do know Sanders supporters who didn't vote for Clinton. And the OP says

up to 12% of Sanders supporters didn't vote for Clinton, and voted for trump. Seems pretty obvious -- when 70,000 votes cost us the election -- that those 12% had something to do with trump winning. In fact, if less than 2% of them did that, he would have won.

I also bet a lot of folks who didn't vote for Clinton -- whether they explicitly voted for trump or sat out -- ain't admitting it.

[mountain grammy]

221. and my argument back will always be

anyone who voted for trump NEVER supported Bernie Sanders at all because Bernie has supported Democratic policies for decades, and trump is the polar opposite.

This is a completely false narrative. Trumpers never had to be persuaded or convinced, this is who they are, and it's mostly, almost entirely, about white supremacy and the continuing dominance of white men in America. Bernie's message has never been about that and everyone knows it. No, no one who believed in Sander's message would vote for trump.

[Hoyt]

226. There were some similarities between those two. Hard to deny.

But if a lot of Sanders’ supporters weren’t Democrats and voted for trump, that tells you something about people Sanders welcomed into his camp. He had to know, but didn’t do anything, if that’s the case.

[mountain grammy]

240. I was part of a very active Bernie group

that became a Hillary group. All of us, stronger together. We would not have welcomed any racists, facists or misogynists and I doubt any group supporting Bernie would. Why the hell would trumpers want to join a group of liberals anyway? What similarities are you talking about? What is "a lot of Sander's supporters?"

This is an old article and, I think, completely irrelevant and sad that the OP would open old wounds. It surmises that 12% of Bernie supporters turned completely around and I guess that would be "a lot." So 88% voted for Hillary, I disagree and think it was "a lot" higher, but in any case, they gave her the popular vote victory.

[Cha]

65. Yes, the Russians Hacked the election systems and I don't

believe for one second that as much as they wanted trump installed that they didn't change votes.

That wthl all the Hateful Brainwashing LIES that went on against Hillary was enough to get the fucking monster inserted.

[Hoyt]

84. There's proof they got int registration systems. Maybe the reason

there is not similar proof on hacking of votes is that it didn’t happen. The voting system is a totally different system and not something hackers could poke around in during the few hours they had.

Fact is, we lost. OP is one of main reasons. Voters didn’t show up to vote for Clinton. Comey had an impact. Polls were an impact. Stupidity had an impact. And fact is there are a lot of ignorant white wing racists in this country, and trump appealed to them.

[LonePirate]

158. They were certainly up to something and most of it is still classified. See this link.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/bill-nelson-wasn-t-making-things-when-he-said-russians-n901701

What all did they hack and what all did they do? Also, why is all of this still classified almost two years after the fact?

I certainly wouldn't put it past the Russians to have hacked votes. I am not saying they but I wouldn't be surprised if they did. I also think it is foolish to rule out any possibility that they hacked votes. We simply do not have enough public information to make that judgment as of yet. There were numerous states where weird and unexpected results came in, especially compared with the early vote, namely FL and NC. Then there is the whole mess that is GA, not to mention the out of nowhere close calls in MI, PA and WI.

[Hoyt]

163. I agree it could have happened, but don't believe it is as easy as people think.

Further, I believe there would be evidence.

In any event, I think it’s better if we get out the vote like in 2008 and quit using hacking as an excuse for 2016. We win when we vote for Democratic nominee. If there was ever a time for hacking by white wingers or sympathizers, 2008 was it. Yet we won, notwithstanding voter suppression, lies, Russian interference, lies, swiftboating, gerrymandering, and probably worse.

But, I’ll agree, we darn sure need to be vigilant.

[apcalc]

180. I believe they did hack votes Absolutely.

It is simple to do. Certain states like mine ( PA) have NO paper back up to verify voting.
I have no idea that I actually voted for who I think I voted for.

[Hoyt]

207. Heck, I remember photos of stolen ballot boxes in the 1950s. Also remember claims of "I was robbed"

from then too.

It's not as easy to hack the voting system as you seem to think, especially without leaving some trace. Besides, a whole lot of people would have to be involved, and one of them would have spoken up by now.

We lost. Just like in 2008, we win when we vote rather than spending our time griping about conspiracies of why we can't win.

[unc70]

11. Not that unusual

From the article:

"A 2010 study in Public Opinion Quarterly found that in the 2008 election 25 percent of those who voted for Clinton in the Democratic primary ended up voting for Republican John McCain, rather than Barack Obama, in the general election."

So, if 25% of the Clinton primary voters later voted for McCain over Obama, then this is a BS non story. This is nothing unusual, mostly being positioned as a hit piece on Sanders.

[Quixote1818]

13. Bingo

[NCTraveler]

14. It didn't cost Obama the election.

Just a minor difference. It wasn’t even close.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

51. Obama had positive approval ratings among registered voters.

[uponit7771]

27. It doesn't State how many of the Clinton primary voters did not vote for Obama

[unc70]

29. Actually it does. 25% Clinton primary voters for MCCain

Right there in the excerpt I quoted verbatim.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

43. Well there's an inconvenient fact.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

232. No kiddin'... but, hey, why let that stop a good Bernie bashing. Awards night comin' up...

who will win the coveted Bernie Basher of the Year Award?

[uponit7771]

48. You're right, I read the OP wrong ... yeah ... sounds like a shit kicking post

[ZeroSomeBrains]

34. Exactly

I was a bernie voter who voted for hillary. I was proud of both of those votes. I did what I could to persuade the morons who either didn't vote or voted for trump but some people are stubborn and willfully ignorant of the harm that would come. They also seemed to be believing in wishful thinking that somehow it would be better in the end if trump became president. You can all see how that worked out....

[Major Nikon]

39. The author is a complete moron

Just because some Bernie primary voters voted for Trump doesn't prove anything.

How many of those voters did so as spoilers? The author doesn't know.

How many of those voters would have voted for Trump anyway absent Bernie ever running? The author doesn't know.

How many independent voters did Bernie bring to the table for Clinton who would not have been there otherwise? The author doesn't know.

Those who regurgitate this nonsense don't know either, but undoubtedly do so for a completely different agenda. Time to move on or at least come up with something not quite so banal.

[George II]

63. "25 percent of those who voted for Clinton in the Democratic primary ended up voting for.....

...Republican John McCain"

That's quite possible, which is why we need CLOSED primaries.

Does the study look at how many of those 25% were republicans crossing over in the primary? I would think quite a bit.

[sheshe2]

81. Boom!

[JHan]

147. I've always ignored the Whataboutism about 2008...

McCain is not Trump ( didn't think this would need explaining but apparently it does for some folks)
Also your point about closed primaries.
And Clinton and Obama went on to project a very united front, to the consternation of some diehard "PUMA's".

And uhm, can you imagine the reaction if Clinton took these diehards seriously and dared to suggest changes to the DNC rules after she lost? Or fed memes about primaries being "rigged" or wouldn't outright refute such claims?

[JCanete]

176. Its not whataboutism. Its that there was nothing at all about Sanders impact on this race

that sent Democratic voters flocking to Trump or abstaining and the numbers show that there was no abnormal exodus. And the ONLY reason a vote for McCain over Obama is tolerable here is that Trump has dwarfed the monstrousness of the Republican party, but in any other setting that would not be something we pretended wasn't a problem. For God's sake Palin was his VP pick. Her candidacy is literally among the toppling blocks of standards that led to Trump being a candidate that could win a GE.

As to Sanders working with the DNC on changing superdelegate laws, its a good change. I don't have to be a die-hard to want that change. If our party is making this change then it is for its base and potentially expanding base. Not because it is somehow having its arm twisted by an outsider.

[JHan]

194. Since this is not the first time your recollection of History is different to what happened...

I'll "agree to disagree" because I'm not in the mood to go down history lane and type 10 posts repeating points you'll ignore.

[JCanete]

218. I don't believe I ignore points you make JHan. I do disagree with your points, but I'm not sure that

is the same thing. If I literally ever talk past a point you make, point out that specific thing and I will address it.

[Pope George Ringo II]

97. I'm not sure all those 2008 Clinton voters were really Clinton voters.

The impact of Limbaugh's "Operation Chaos" emerged as an intriguing point of debate, particularly in Indiana, where registered voters could participate in either party's primary, and where Clinton won by a mere 14,000 votes. As he had before several recent primaries, Limbaugh encouraged listeners to vote for Clinton to "bloody up Obama politically" and prolong the Democratic fight.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/07/AR2008050703932.html?noredirect=on

And I'm much less of a Sanders fan than I was three years ago, but I'm not out to pick a fight with his supporters by blaming them en masse for Trump. Some former Sanders definitely voted for Trump. So did some Obama voters, if we're honest. Individuals are going to do what they're going to do for their own reasons.

[Cha]

100. From BS to the Racist Pervert?! You see the difference.

And, that's the Difference between me and those kind of voters.. I vote for the Dem no matter what. I don't pout and stamp my feet.

I think of the Planet and SCOTUS.

[Bonheur]

181. BS non-story posted by obsessives bitterly clinging to refighting a primary from 2 years ago!

Laughable and sad! The mid-terms are coming up, and some bitter clingers just can't let go of something that at this point is irrelevant history! Just step away from the computer for a while, y'all are obviously not feeling well!

[pampango]

17. "In 2008 25% of Clinton primary voters voted for McCain in the general election."

While much was made of the so-called Bernie-or-bust phenomenon, the number of Sanders supporters who crossed party lines to vote for Trump in 2016 may not be that unusual. A 2010 study in Public Opinion Quarterly found that in the 2008 election 25 percent of those who voted for Clinton in the Democratic primary ended up voting for Republican John McCain, rather than Barack Obama, in the general election.

That was twice as bad as the 12% who did so in 2916. It is sad but apparently Democratic primary voters too often are so upset that their candidate lost in the primary that they actually end up voting for the republican.

I doubt that republican primary voters do that.

[NightWatcher]

20. I bet most of that PUMA stuff was enemy driven as well.

[Major Nikon]

41. Some like to forget that shit

They also like to forget the "never Obama" calls after she lost the primary. Very telling that.

[Cha]

101. I sure as hell don't. I vote for the Dem no matter what.

[Tarheel_Dem]

18. Which is why I despise them even more than I do Trump. They were supposedly smarter than him.

[Cha]

169. Operative word "suppose" to be.

I agree, Tarheel.

Eeeek on that graphic of Dumbshit.

[Tarheel_Dem]

242. She makes my skin crawl.

[moondust]

22. PUMAs?

'Party Unity, My Ass' - what the Pumas really stand for

[uponit7771]

23. So Clinton got twice as much as Obama, hmmmmm. More proof Russians might been involved

Last edited Mon Aug 27, 2018, 08:46 PM - Edit history (1)

[safeinOhio]

30. How many Bernie voters would have voted for Hillary

if she would have made Bernie her running mate?

[Cha]

56. Why would Hillary have Ever done that?

[Agschmid]

71. Gee I don't know because he received a huge sum of primary votes?

Seems like a legitimate reason to me. Sure there isn’t a lot of historical examples of it happening, but that’s irrelevant.

That being said, I don’t think him as VP would have changed the overall election outcome.

[Cha]

74. Hillary knew who she wanted and it wasn't BS.

[Agschmid]

78. And she's entitled to make a pick.

But you are being intellectually dishonest if you can’t see a single reason why it may have been a strategically good decision.

Overall doesn’t matter, she picked someone else. It is what it is.

[Cha]

85. And, you have to lob a personal insult to try and make your point.

You lose.

[Agschmid]

131. It's not a personal attack, it's a fact.

[Cha]

145. Yeah, keep digging.

[Eliot Rosewater]

224. i notice that also

If I could talk about 2016 I would say things sure are familiar.

But I cant. So I wont. I will do one thing, though, I will promise folks that if the dems dont at least take back the house I will blame the folks who attacked our party.

All of them.

Especially the group that pretends to be part of our party but oddly almost never says anything positive and almost always says negative stuff.

I will want to scream at them for taking away my family's ability to enjoy this country going forward.

[lunamagica]

120. The fact that you need to answer with a personal attack shows you have no argument

[Agschmid]

132. Actually my argument is that people are being intellectually dishonest.

That’s not a personal attack it’s a fact.

[lunamagica]

137. It is not a fact. It is only your opinion. An opinion I strongly disagree with

Do you really, honestly believe that Sanders would have been a good VP choice? Because I personally think it would have been a disaster. This guy is not, and has never been, a team player. He wants to always be the leader. And we are supposed to believe he would have gladly taken the role of being second to the candidate, supporting her and the team?

Sanders would have made Paling look like an amateur in going rouge. It would have been all about him and his agenda.

The notion of Sanders as VP is just laughable.

[Agschmid]

139. I didn't ever say he would be a good pick, I said saying there were zero reasons to pick him...

was intellectually dishonest. Not an opinion, a fact.

I didn’t vote for him, but I’m not going to pretend that he didn’t have a following.

[sheshe2]

149. Having a "following"

does not a candidate make.

Votes make the candidate. We loved her.

I always use to love your posts when your feet were hitting the street. You did a lot of leg work. You did good.

Bernie would not have been a good VP pick. It would have been a disaster. You know that and so do I.

[Cha]

167. Important points on why BS would not have made a

viable VP candidate, Luna! Gracias!

Which brings me back to my original statement of.. "Why would Hillary have Ever done that?

[lunamagica]

170. Exactly, Cha. Pick him because he had "a following" (even though most couldn't bother to vote)

when he had so many negatives would have been absurd.

[sheshe2]

166. It would have been a disaster.

Calling out Cha for her opinion as "intellectually dishonest " is unnecessary and beneath you. Please stop. I have respected all that you have done door to door.

Please stop.

[Cha]

168. Mahalo, she..

He has his "opinion" and I have mine.

I wouldn't presume to call him "intellectually dishonest" because his is different.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

173. Hillary would have been President had she picked VP Sanders... without a doubt.

[Agschmid]

70. Probably not that many more tbh.

[xxqqqzme]

31. Can we get beyond this please

As long as putin can get his bots to mess with our elections, these 'discussions' are moot.

I cannot believe how many of my friends got sucked into this never ending argument and are still getting into shouting matches over it.

[leftstreet]

60. It will never end. A zombie apocalypse wouldn't end it n/t

[Eliot Rosewater]

102. I am not allowed to talk about 2016, therefore, buckle up, gonna happen again

[elmac]

33. This happens in every after primary GE vote

You have voters that were never true progressives or hated the primary pick so much they voted for the enemy. Lets stop blaming Bernie, its was the fascists obstruction, big money and Russia, not Bernie.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

228. THIS... thank you!

[JI7]

36. the ones booing at the convention voted for Trump

[Major Nikon]

37. ...

[Sugar Smack]

68. ....

[peekaloo]

91. ......

[BlueTsunami2018]

46. I know a lot of people who did so.

And that’s because Тяцмр co-opted a lot of Bernie’s message. Of course he was lying when he did so, which should have been obvious to anyone with half a brain, but those were the things workers wanted to hear.

It is what it is.

[JI7]

49. those people are ok with Trump's bigotry

[BlueTsunami2018]

140. Indifferent to it at the very least.

Wholeheartedly on board with it at worst. It certainly wasn’t a dealbreaker.

[diva77]

50. Yet another red-herring article to deflect from the fact that the election was STOLEN

We'd best be worrying about how to prevent another election from being stolen!!!!!

https://www.gregpalast.com/election-stolen-heres/

The Election Was Stolen – Here’s How…
November 11, 2016
Greg Palast

Before a single vote was cast, the election was fixed by GOP and Trump operatives.

Starting in 2013 – just as the Supreme Court gutted the Voting Rights Act – a coterie of Trump operatives, under the direction of Kris Kobach, Kansas Secretary of State, created a system to purge 1.1 million Americans of color from the voter rolls of GOP–controlled states.

The system, called Crosscheck, is detailed in my Rolling Stone report,
“The GOP’s Stealth War on Voters,” 8/24/2016.

Crosscheck in action:
Trump victory margin in Michigan: 13,107
Michigan Crosscheck purge list: 449,922

Trump victory margin in Arizona: 85,257
Arizona Crosscheck purge list: 270,824

Trump victory margin in North Carolina: 177,008
North Carolina Crosscheck purge list: 589,393

On Tuesday, we saw Crosscheck elect a Republican Senate and as President, Donald Trump. The electoral putsch was aided by nine other methods of attacking the right to vote of Black, Latino and Asian-American voters, methods detailed in my book and film, including “Caging,” “purging,” blocking legitimate registrations, and wrongly shunting millions to “provisional” ballots that will never be counted.

[samnsara]

54. says more about them than us...

...they have to live with that decision.

[aikoaiko]

55. These were interesting statistics a year ago.

No one gets all the votes.

[wasupaloopa]

59. Most Bernie supporters voted for Hillary.

They are the majority so I will not get upset about this

[backtoblue]

75. So how do we get Bernie/or third party voters on our side?

Last edited Mon Aug 27, 2018, 10:01 PM - Edit history (1)

Empathy, compassion, and a meaningful look at millennials will help our blue tsunami .

We must be a big enough tent to welcome youthful resistance!

I was born in 80, a sliver between gen x and millennial.

I'm trying to get the vote out in my rural community (see sig link for Josh Mahony.

Every conversation I have with my community matters. Every vote matters. This has become a way of life for me. Those of us in R d, hillbilly hell will probably understand.

If we get the independent vote, we win.

[JoeOtterbein]

106. Agreed n/t

[backtoblue]

109. Thanks Joe

Our tent is big enough. Let's invite the progressive, youngsters in. The future is undecided. Let's make a difference!!!

[JoeOtterbein]

114. Failure in Nov is not an option. We need every vote we can

squeeze out of the Indys and everyone. Even Trump supporters.

When I worked for Meals on Wheels I learned to take the money from where it came because we would turn it into food for the homebound. We should not be judging voters BEFORE they enter their Nov ballots.

[backtoblue]

116. Amen!

Keep the doors open! Welcome our progressive friends and say goodbye to America, Inc!!!!

The youngsters are OUR future . Let's let em in!

[JoeOtterbein]

118. Here we go:

"Let the future in and we will win"!

And that means all of us Dems plus what ever we can get!

Fight!

[backtoblue]

121. Fight! Speak! Love!

Maxine Waters is my hero. Hillary Clinton is an attribution to what I would want a daughter to aspire. Kamala, Elizabeth, and Nancy are the speakers of truth. I will spread the word throughout this generation. And thru my son, the next.

[JoeOtterbein]

124. Thanks for fighting. It takes tons of energy and thought. But it is the only way to win!

BTW, Maxine is my favorite hero of all of our great lady Dems!

[backtoblue]

127. She became my hero in 2000

When she called Al Gore " Mr. President" and didn't give a damn about the Senate opposition!

Ruth Bader is my other female hero pioneer. If Democrats ran on just one thing, strong women who made a difference would carry us through.

[JoeOtterbein]

129. Thanks for the reminder about Gore.

I wonder alot about how things may have been if we did not let the Rethugs steal that first election.

And then again in '16.

[backtoblue]

135. I just got another vote since talking to ya!!!

Josh Mahony is the Democrat challenging Steve Womack. It's a long shot, but I'm talking to EVERY single person I can.

Fwiw. Tom Cotton is in this area and a big Democratic turnout could lead to a bigger turnout!

[JoeOtterbein]

136. Great!

I'm working here in York, PA fighting for Jess King to best rethug Smucker from his long-held seat.

[Gothmog]

87. K&R

[liberal N proud]

90. They were BoBs

Burny or Bust and they preferred to burn the country down if the couldn't have burny.

[Baclava]

189. yep - Bernie bots were a rabid bunch, a lot switched to Jill in spite I think

[liberal N proud]

246. It as if they wanted trump to win

All because they couldn't have BS

[Baclava]

252. I don't care what anyone says, we're not as smart as we think, we're still a trial and error species

Let's hope the people use their education and make wise decisions in the future.

Trial and error.

[sheshe2]

92. KnR

[TheRealNorth]

93. 2016 is over

Get over it. You can't win today if you're still fighting the past.

It's clear to me from the WI vote that voter suppression/persuaded apathy played more of a role than Bernie voters voting for Trump out of spite. Otherwise, Russ Feingold would have done better or would have won.

We have to fight TODAY against the reasons that caused millions of voters to stay home or were fooled by the BS that they were fed on the internet (and was targeted at Bernie voters). Or serve the same shit on a platter to Republicans.

[mr_lebowski]

171. Why wouldn't Bernie voters staying home out of spite count in these numbers?

Isn't that 'persuaded apathy', esp. given the BS they were fed on the internet (courtesy of Russian Operatives)?

I think the point to be garnered here is that STOLEN DNC DOCS and STOLEN FACEBOOK DATA ... courtesy of the Trump Campaign and their illegal criminal conspiracy with Russia ... were very clearly and strategically leveraged ... to entice Bernie voters to stay home ... and perhaps for some of them to even show up and vote for Trump.

The more important number is the ones who stayed home, IMHO. Anyone who ACTUALLY went and voted for Trump ... were never really on our side.

I think enough Sanders voted stayed home, due to the propaganda and stolen docs ... to swing the election. And that was a major point of the interference.

[beachbum bob]

96. Time to put it to rest and move on

[NurseJackie]

98. Of that I have zero doubt.

[JoeOtterbein]

105. An ole friend was wild about Bernie voted for Trump and still thinks he did the right thing because

he feels Hillary & DWS cheated Bernie on the debates. This guy was a Dem since we were kids (both of us are 62). His late brother was an elected Dem County Executive.

We need to be sure to accept any Indy/Dem Trump voters we can win back.

Failure in Nov is not an option.

[JI7]

111. not by appealing to their sexist conspiracies. they are ok with bigotry

[JoeOtterbein]

117. I would take a Dem vote from a bigot before I want him voting for a Rethug.

Turn their voter swords into plowshares for all. We CAN do it!

No more defeatism. Fight!

[JI7]

143. not if you need to become a bigot for their vote

which is what these people want.

[JoeOtterbein]

150. At this point in history, I don't care what any bigot might "want". As long as they vote for Dems.

Please!

[JI7]

152. they want democratic bigots so it does matter . they want to get rid of civil rights

they want the democratic party to be the party of segregation/dixiecrats etc.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

234. My father-in-law did the same thing... couldn't talk him out of it no matter how hard I tried.

[Cha]

107. Those voters didn't give a shite about SCOTUS,

The Planet, Racism, Sexual Perversion, LIES.. etc etc etc.

IOW.. NOT "progressive".

[R B Garr]

119. Yup, anti-Democrats!

We are not fooled.

[oasis]

126. They're even further away from the dream of "free stuff".

Talking about cutting of your own nose.

[Cha]

154. Good Point, oasis!..

The "dream of free stuff" And, if they gave a shite about the environment.. wow, did they screw themselves and the whole damn Planet.

Gaslighted greens helped get a Climate Change Denier in the WH, too. They must be so proud. And, stein isn't sorry she lied.. and will be RF again in 2020.

[klook]

110. Attention DUers! Circular Firing Squad this way!!

I'm interested in helping Democrats win the House in November 2018, how about you?

How does rehashing the 2016 primary and reopening old wounds help??

Trashing thread.

[Cha]

112. ATTENTION! THIS is About the GE in 2016.

[CentralMass]

115. Relative to recent elections, your conclusion is flawed

From the Washington post.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/24/did-enough-bernie-sanders-supporters-vote-for-trump-to-cost-clinton-the-election/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.449561578e14
Executive summary:
Two surveys estimate that 12 percent of Sanders voters voted for Trump. A third survey suggests it was 6 percent.

However in 2008 24 percent of people who supported Clinton in the primary as of March 2008 then reported voting for McCain in the general election. So by a 2 to 1 margin, Hillary voters in 2008 voted for McCain versus the number Sanders voters who voted for trump in 2016.

The other conclusion from this study was that the Sanders Trump voters were not Democrats.

Some related quotes from the article below.


"Two surveys estimate that 12 percent of Sanders voters voted for Trump. A third survey suggests it was 6 percent.

Another useful comparison is to 2008, when the question was whether Clinton supporters would vote for Barack Obama or John McCain (R-Ariz.) Based on data from the 2008 Cooperative Campaign Analysis Project, a YouGov survey that also interviewed respondents multiple times during the campaign, 24 percent of people who supported Clinton in the primary as of March 2008 then reported voting for McCain in the general election.


Thus, the 6 percent or 12 percent of Sanders supporters who may have supported Trump does not look especially large in comparison with these other examples."


What kinds of Sanders voters supported Trump?

Perhaps the most important feature of Sanders-Trump voters is this: They weren’t really Democrats to begin with.

Of course, we know that many Sanders voters did not readily identify with the Democratic Party as of 2016, and Schaffner found that Sanders-Trump voters were even less likely to identify as Democrats. Sanders-Trump voters didn’t much approve of Obama either.

In fact, this was true well before 2016. In the VOTER Survey, we know how Sanders-Trump voters voted in 2012, based on an earlier interview in November 2012. Only 35 percent of them reported voting for Obama, compared with 95 percent of Sanders-Clinton voters. In other words, Sanders-Trump voters were predisposed to support Republicans in presidential general elections well before Trump’s candidacy."

"In short, it may be hard to know exactly how many Sanders-Trump voters there were, or whether they really cost Clinton the election. But it doesn’t appear that many of them were predisposed to support Clinton in the first place."

[Kaleva]

122. And about a equal percentage of Hillary supporters voted for McCain in 2008. Remember PUMA?

"or example, Schaffner tells NPR that around 12 percent of Republican primary voters (including 34 percent of Ohio Gov. John Kasich voters and 11 percent of Florida Sen. Marco Rubio voters) ended up voting for Clinton. And according to one 2008 study, around 25 percent of Clinton primary voters in that election ended up voting for Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., in the general. (In addition, the data showed 13 percent of McCain primary voters ended up voting for Obama, and 9 percent of Obama voters ended up voting for McCain — perhaps signaling something that swayed voters between primaries and the general election, or some amount of error in the data, or both.)"

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812242/1-in-10-sanders-primary-voters-ended-up-supporting-trump-survey-finds

My guess is that a similar percentage of Deaniacs voted for Bush in 2008.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

229. Dontchaknow?! No whataboutism allowed!! hahaha... seriously, excellent point!

[StevieM]

123. For the most part I don't blame Sanders. I refuse to take the blame off Comey, where it belongs.

He had absolutely no right to hold that July press conference and smear her. And he had no right to publicly re-open that ridiculous investigation right before the election.

[egduj]

128. Those bastards!

[musette_sf]

130. K&R

[JHan]

133. Let's really tackle this..

2016 saw a massive dezinformatsiya campaign against a candidate, which affected electoral politics in profound ways. Protecting electoral systems and data are now paramount.

Data was weaponized effectively to "suppress" votes with the sophisticated targeting of some swing states. All of this caught conventional Data analytics on the backfoot.

If you invested everything in Sanders to the point of demonizing his opponent, then it's expected you'd feel justified voting for Trump - after spreading lies about Clinton what else are you gonna do?

There are also "progressives" who don't hate Trump. Case in point Ted Rall.

This isn't me paraphrasing, these are Rall's words which he chose to put in the Wall Street Journal:

"I was at a friend’s daughter’s confirmation party in eastern Long Island, N.Y. The family Volvo and the Tesla bore Bernie Sanders stickers, one from 2016 and the other from 2020. “The thing about Trump . . .” I began, and the father interrupted me: “. . . he’s not all bad, right?” he said. “I actually like some of the things he’s doing.” He mentioned North Korea and trade protectionism. He cast his eyes about, worried about being overheard.

My friend didn’t vote for Donald Trump and doesn’t intend to in 2020. But he doesn’t despise the president nearly as much as he—being a leftie—is supposed to. I hear that from a lot of my fellow progressives.

“Disgusting,” a friend in academia told me as we discussed the separation of children from their illegal-alien parents at the border. “But isn’t it weird to just leave the border open?”

Centrists who supported Hillary Clinton go crazy when Mr. Trump tweets. His gleefully crass style drives them bonkers. His contempt for identity politics appalls them. Many progressives, on the other hand, are primarily motivated by economic and class justice. That isn’t to say that the Bernie Sanders people approve of family separation or pretending that police brutality isn’t real. But left populists are not entirely unsympathetic to economic nationalism or stronger border controls. For them, American workers come first, and Donald Trump is the first (far less than perfect) president in most people’s lifetimes to walk that talk."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-progressives-who-dont-hate-trump-1530572149

There's the tired old "centrist" trope against Clinton supporters, the slight against "identity politics" favored by conservatives, and not only is he confused about "open borders" and the whole issue of immigration on a whole, he and the "progressives" he chatted to are confused about a ton fuck of other things. A Venn Diagram would make the overlap clear between Trumpism and this odd expression of "progressivism" - horseshoe theory at work?

It gets so ridiculous his defense of these "progressives" ends up reading like a slander of Bernie himself and a gross mischaracterization of Bernie's position on some issues.

There's no conceivable reason for anyone calling themselves a progressive to vote Trump or be comfortable with his Presidency unless this isn't about Progressiveness and never was..

So I can't blame the BernieOrBust crowd solely. What this madness points to are the ISMS Clinton faced which were immeasurable and larger than any one group.

I could blame the pundit class for their bothsideism narratives, their obscene focus on emails and false equivalencies. I could blame the constant apologia for white supremacy, dressed up as "economic anxiety", I could blame nihilism, and don't get me started on the sexism ( one particular reply in this thread is very revealing). I could blame the decades-long hate campaign against HRC by the GOP, so successful some Democrats swallowed it wholesale. It wasn't one person or one thing, it was a mass of very fucked up shit.

Marco Rubio said in 2015, that if Republicans made it a contest of resumes Clinton would win easily - which was telling. As qualified, experienced and a woman of substance she was, there was a determined effort to erase her very accomplishments.

A couple events post election just confirmed what I had already observed during the election. The reaction to Hillary publishing her election memoir, where even some so-called progressives lost their shit over her daring to write a book about her experience. Crazed reactions to her stating indisputable facts like Kremlin interference and Voter Suppression which would otherwise be considered reasonable. Reactions to her making magazine covers, and the fury she incites in people who agree with her on principle but still feel the need to hate her or deride her or minimize her.

The rage is beyond astonishing. It's something for the ages, it has no grounding in logic or reason. Her male colleagues (often on the same side of the aisle) do the same or worse, and it barely makes a blip.

Now we have to deal with the consequences of this craziness or continually see a repeat of it, the set back to the progressive agenda is already in swing. We're already having to take several steps backward to get where we thought we were. SCOTUS looks dire.

Maybe in future, we could stop being dupes and focus on the prize but first, we have to recognize the toxic mess which got us here in the first place.

[ehrnst]

196. ....

[earthshine]

146. Many Bernie supporters were not Democrats to begin with.

Last edited Tue Aug 28, 2018, 06:55 AM - Edit history (1)

Bernie attracted many who were independents and republicans.

Bernie was the only way they would vote for Dems.

There are many reasons people voted for Trump, however ill-founded they may be.

My own mother voted for Trump. (I was gobsmacked by this! Back in the 70s, she ran meetings for NOW.)

Said she wanted to "shake things up." Also, stupid shit like "A man's character doesn't matter. Only if he can do the job." And also, "Obama was a racist."

More and more, I see signs of dementia. And sadly, I believe she will soon have to be "homed."

Like many Trump voters, she accepts no responsibility whatsoever for the present state of the world, and does not care that Trump is a James-Bond-level villain.

[Demonaut]

151. past is prologue, idiots vote emotions

[Gothmog]

153. Here is some on this topic

Last edited Fri Sep 3, 2021, 02:15 AM - Edit history (1)

Here is some more on this topic http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-trump-2016-election-654320

Bernie Sanders supporters switched their allegiance to Donald Trump in large enough numbers last November to sway the election for the real estate billionaire, according to an analysis of voter data released Tuesday by the blog Political Wire. Since Trump’s shock victory over Hillary Clinton, much discussion has focused on the degree to which passionate Sanders supporters’ refusal to embrace Clinton led to the Republican winding up in the White House.

Here is some more https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/24/16194086/bernie-trump-voters-study

About 12 percent of Bernie Sanders supporters from the Democratic primary crossed party lines and voted for Donald Trump indiv] the general election, a new analysis says.

In several key states — Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan — the number of Sanders to Trump defectors were greater than Trump’s margin of victory, according to new numbers released Wednesday by UMass professor Brian Schaffner.

[Cha]

157. Damn.. and throw in those who got Sucked in by stein's LIES

pumped by putin, and Hillary didn't stand a chance.

Link to tweet

Gracias, Goth

[Gothmog]

200. Agreed

[CentralMass]

164. Well. I posted the WAPO's article that stated similar figures in post 115..

Last edited Tue Aug 28, 2018, 02:14 AM - Edit history (5)

However the article,
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/24/did-enough-bernie-sanders-supporters-vote-for-trump-to-cost-clinton-the-election/

and numbers discussed revealed two categories of Sanders voters .

1. Sanders - Hillary voters
2. Sanders - Trump voters.

So depending on whether you go with the 6% or 12% percentage of Sanders voters who voted for tRump this means that either 94% or 88% of Sanders voters voted for Hillary.

That same WAPO articles analysis concluded that the Sanders - Trump voters were not predisposed to vote for Hillary to begin with and were not Democrats.

Relative to recent elections that 94% or 88% of Sanders voters who voted for the nominee is high. Only 76% of Hillary voters in 2008 voted for Senator Obama.
24% voted for McCain.

Let's look at Wisconsin. Bernie received 570,192 votes in the primary. The article state that 51k Sanders voters vote for tRump. That works out to 8.9% of Sanders primary voters voting for tRump. 91.1% of Sanders primary voters voted for Hillary

In the general there were 2,787 820 votes cast in Wisconsin . The Sander - Trump voters, 51k, were 1.8% of that. That's almost noise.

Why didn't Hillary campaign in those rust belt states particularly after tRump did ? Or in other words how in the hell did a Democratic candidate do that badly in Wisconsin ?

The WI General election map from 2008

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wisconsin_presidential_election_results_2008.svg

The WI General election map from 2016

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wisconsin_Presidential_Election_Results_2016.svg

[JCanete]

174. Cool....study only available to political wire members. Quote from the article....

"Another factor, however, was that of those who switched their allegiance from Sanders to Trump less than 10 percent considered themselves strong Democrats, while less than 50 percent even leaned Democrat."


my bolding:

"While much was made of the so-called Bernie-or-bust phenomenon, the number of Sanders supporters who crossed party lines to vote for Trump in 2016 may not be that unusual. A 2010 study in Public Opinion Quarterly found that in the 2008 election 25 percent of those who voted for Clinton in the Democratic primary ended up voting for Republican John McCain, rather than Barack Obama, in the general election."

I love how the headline is all sensational and the very last paragraph addresses this.

[MFM008]

177. Hes going to try

To do it again in 2020.
Ralph Naderism.

[Awsi Dooger]

184. Unfortunate thread

There is always spillage of this type. Check out this link from 2008, which looks at the issue in regard to both 2000 and 2008. The standard trend is that immediately after the lost primary many more emotional types claim they will vote for the other party's nominee, than the ones who actually do so in November:

http://ccpsblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/how-common-are-defections-in-general.html


https://news.gallup.com/poll/105691/McCain-vs-Obama-28-Clinton-Backers-McCain.aspx

[TheFarseer]

191. Why is Hillary Clinton entitled to some other candidate's voters?

btw - did you read to the bottom? You would have seen that in 2008, 25% of Clinton primary voters voted for McCain -yikes!

As for reasons why Sanders primary voters voted Trump or 3rd party: Sanders expanded the reach of the Democratic party to anti-establishment voters. These folks were going to cast some kind of protest vote rather than vote for an establishment candidate whether it was a misguided vote for Trump, Stein or Gary Johnson. Also, Trump courted these voters. He acted like he wanted their votes. otoh Sanders voters were largely told to shut up and fall in line if they weren't being called sexist or racist and told their agenda was stupid and unrealistic. I do not remember Clinton or Democrats emphasizing that their agenda was much more similar to Sanders' agenda than Trump's agenda. Trump was promising coal jobs and bring your jobs back from Mexico and China. Clinton Democrats said move and get an education - better advice than waiting around for something that isn't going to happen, but it sounded tone deaf and condescending. OK, I expect to be flamed mercilessly for this. I'm headed to work now, so don't expect me to reply at least until later.

[WhiteTara]

210. I noted these were interesting stats.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

235. Stay in your hole... hahaha!! (Some good points.)

[kentuck]

201. I think that is very possible.

Bernie Sanders was not just supported by Democratic voters.

[jalan48]

206. Lets worry about getting some of the 90+ million eligible voters who didn't bother to vote.

Shaming and blaming far fewer voters is a waste of time.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

236. Ding! Ding! Ding!... We hava winner!!!

[progressoid]

212. Wow. Why has this never been posted before on DU?!?

Oh, never mind. It has. Often.

Like every other week somebody's undies get in a bunch and they have to drag this old canard out again.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

237. Gettin' old... specially when we need to be united goin' into the 2018 elections and beyond.

[CentralMass]

253. See post 164.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11061150

[whopis01]

245. So what?

What's the point here?

Those people were never going to vote for Clinton. It didn't matter whether Sanders was running or not.

People talk about this as if he, or his campaign somehow took those votes away from Clinton. That simply isn't the case. They would never have voted for her. They were anti-establishment and were looking for the radical candidate. Or they would never vote for a woman. Or they would never vote for Clinton for whatever reason.

It like the 25% of Clinton primary voters who went for McCain/Palin instead of Obama/Biden in 2008. Clinton didn't take them away from Obama. That's the 25% of Clinton primary voters who would never vote for Obama.

[earthshine]

249. The point is that many want to blame progressives for the loss ...

hence the phrasing of the OP. Blame Bernie and his supporters. Blah, blah, ....

[WhiteTara]

257. Really, what we want is for this NOT to happen again.

We must know the past before we can address the future. It's hard to go the other way. Democracy is not a blah blah IMHO

[earthshine]

258. Blaming Bernie is blah, blah, blah. I said no such thing about democracy.

Please feel free to come up with your own interpretation of my words instead of their meaning as stated.

Blah, blah.

[Gothmog]

256. Indictment: Russians also tried to help Bernie Sanders, Jill Stein presidential campaigns

Russia was helping sanders for a reason https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/17/indictment-russians-also-tried-help-bernie-sanders-jill-stein-presidential-campaigns/348051002/

WASHINGTON – It turns out Donald Trump wasn’t the only candidate the Russians allegedly tried to help during the 2016 presidential campaign.

A 37-page indictment resulting from special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation shows that Russian nationals and businesses also worked to boost the campaigns of Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders and Green party nominee Jill Stein in an effort to damage Democrat Hillary Clinton.

The Russians “engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump,” according to the indictment, which was issued Friday.