I have a question re: Elizabeth Warren and her heritage claim.

[TheCowsCameHome]

First, let me state that she is my Senator and I think she has done a fine job. I am quite confident she will win again in November, but we live in strange times, so I take nothing for granted.

What puzzles me is why she won't submit to a test to confirm her Native American heritage/ ancestry. I have no reason to doubt her, but until it is dispelled once and for all it is lingering fodder for the right wingers to use against her. One of her potential republican challengers is a genuine nutcase that is backed by the ugliest of the ugly Trump mob. Heaven forbid he ever get elected.

I hear the insults aimed at her everywhere I go, my TrumpBot BIL from Florida even started in over the weekend before I shut him down, it seems she could end this ongoing crapola with a simple blood/DNA test, and I really wish she would take action to shut this "fake indian - Pocahontas - Lieawatha - High Cheekbones" thing down once and for all.

I understand the "Why should she have to prove anything to them" argument, but I just wish this BS would be taken off the table for good.

[ProudLib72]

1. She would be giving in to the bullies

It would keep attention on the negative press the Rump has generated.

[TheBlackAdder]

45. She would just be accused of submitting someone else's DNA or presenting falsified report.

[hlthe2b]

2. Right, because releasing his birth certificate certainly stopped all the "birther" conspiracy talk

for Obama, didn't it?

Appeasing them does nothing and WILL set up more ugly demands/precedence.

[demigoddess]

4. +1

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

38. Exactly!!

[hunter]

62. Yep.

For people who frequently claim to be "colorblind" the Republicans ain't.

Heads they win, tails you lose.

Best not play their games.

[Soxfan58]

3. If I am right

Trump had made a issue of her heritage, not her. Would you expect Obama to summit to a dna test to prove his heritage.

[stopbush]

5. Perhaps she has had such a test done and the results weren't compelling.

Who knows?

I will say that she should not take the bait. What good did it do for Obama to produce his birth certificate?

[bluescribbler]

34. Exactly

There was a guy I knew who hung out at the local pub. He was a birther. When Obama released the short form birth certificate, he wasn't satisfied. After Obama released the long form, I asked him, "Are you satisfied now?"
"No."
"Why not?"
"It could be fake. It could be a forgery."
"I know why you have such a problem with this."
"Why?"
"I know why."
"No. It's not that."
He knew exactly what I meant. He didn't like it. But I was convinced.

[d_r]

51. Right

There are a lot of families with stories of native ancestry, it is only in the past very few years that we have had dna tests to shed their particular light on those family stories. A lot of the family stories will turn out not to have DNA evidence, but that doesn't mean that people didn't believe them for generations.

Heck, I was just reading in a book called "Jacksonland," about John Ross. John Ross was 1/2 Cherokee and 1/2 Scottish. There is a scene early in the book when he and some other Cherokee are taking a boat down the Tennessee river for trading, and are stopped by some men with an order not to let Cherokee through, and John Ross passes as a white guy and tells them that the other two are Spanish. I think there are a lot of stories in our past from people "passing" for other things - people with darker skin passing in family stories as Portuguese or Spanish or various Native tribes, or Mulengeon decent when they may have been mixed from a variety of races and these were seen as more socially acceptable at the time or even more out of necessity. We also forget that people 100 or 150 years ago had really different ideas about things like race and ethnicity than we do now. So it might have been better to say that Grandma was part Indian rather than to say she was part African-American if the community didn't let African-American people in. Just like saying that they were Spanish instead of Indian, or whatever. Ever since the 1600s there has been lot of mixing between white folks, native folks, and black folks, and the DNA tests aren't always that accurate, they can only base it on the info that they have. It is entirely possible that someone could actually have some native ancestry and not have any show in a dna test.

[salin]

6. Because regardless of the results - those insults will continue. Look at Trump and the Birthers.

The Trumpers will never take it off the table.

[gratuitous]

7. Because it's a spurious accusation

Senator Warren should agree to a DNA test as soon as Trump releases his tax returns. /snark

If a DNA test showed Warren to be 100% Native American, it wouldn't stop the racists from racist-ing. It wouldn't dispel anything, the fodder would still linger, the insults would continue, and it wouldn't take this BS off the table at all. The test results would be denounced as fake, and the demands from the nutcases would just ramp up. Nothing would or will satisfy them, because the issue isn't Warren's ancestry, it's the bigotry, misogyny, and racism of her critics.

[csziggy]

8. DNA may not show her Native American ancestry

Both my sisters and I have had our DNA tested. One sister's results show Native American DNA, the other sister and mine do not. Our mother's DNA does not, neither do two male cousins who have been tested. We did not get testing done on our father but his documented genealogy does not show any possible Native American heritage at all.

Some of my mother's cousins claim Native American ancestry in a paternal line. Nothing has ever been documented to prove this but frankly that is likely the only source for my sister's results. If that is the source, that means that of six people in that line who have been tested, only one's DNA tests shows that ancestry.

Remember, you get half of your DNA from each parent. If I remember correctly, Elizabeth Warren's possible Native American ancestor is four generations back - that means at most she would have 1/16 of her DNA from that ancestor - or maybe none at all.

ETA -If she were tested and her results showed no Native American DNA it would mean nothing but it would give the racists who question her family's stories about her heritage more ammunition to use against her.

[rsdsharp]

15. I have a friend who has traced his lineage -- on both sides -- back five or six generations.

ALL of his ancestors were Dutch. His DNA test stated he was primarily English. It depends on the assumptions used to crate the algorithm.

[Blaukraut]

23. my biological father was Dutch and my DNA shows English, too n/t

[csziggy]

28. Has he considered that his ancestors could have moved from England?

Both my husband and I have "non-conformist" English ancestors who moved to the Netherlands. Some of them then emigrated to American, some of the families stayed in the Netherlands for generations and some of the descendants remained in the Netherlands while others emigrated to the US or Canada.

On the other hand, my husband has French blood which his mother always assumed was from Huguenots emigrating from France. It turns out that his French ancestors were Huguenots, but they moved to England, remained there for generations and then some of the family moved to Philadelphia. So Peter de Prefontaine "from France" turned out to be the grandson of Francois Papin de Prefontain, son of a Frenchman, born in in England. Oh, the family should have been Papin or Pepin, not de Prefontaine.

Genealogy and DNA are not as straight a path as many assume!

[Scruffy1]

31. Old saying from when I grew up.

Mama's baby'daddies maybe.

[csziggy]

44. To try to get a clue about one of my brick walls in my genealogy

My male cousin (direct male line descendant of the last known ancestor in that line) had his DNA tested. So far not one of the known surname lines connects with my cousin's DNA results.

He did get a match from a man whose DNA results do not match anyone with his surname. After consulting with the DNA experts he was told to check with the people in my cousin's DNA group and advised that perhaps he was the result of an "undocumented paternity event."

I love that phrase! I am beginning to believe that our ancestor was also the result of an "undocumented paternity event" and that the name he used when he arrived in Alabama in 1834 was not the name of his father. In which case we will never be able to trace that lineage.

Most of the other DNA matches to my cousin's DNA results go back to the same person or one of his numerous children so they are no help.

[displacedtexan]

35. I am legally 1/8 Cherokee. It's verified by a long tribal process.

You have to get a tribal sponsor and provide birth documents going back as many generations as possible. You also have a better case if you have tribal witnesses, which my father's family had.

The DNA test isn't reliable yet ecause there aren't enough samples in the database yet to use for comparison. Maybe someday, though.

What I find interesting is that no tribal entity as slammed Warren, as far as I know.

[2naSalit]

57. Exactly!

Not worth playing the game if the data is insufficient for comparison.

Personally, I would never submit to a DNA test nor do I allow medical tests be done unless I am convinced my DNA won't be sold or used without my permission.

[nolabear]

43. Yes. My childhood was like Sen. Warren's. Credible NA heritage.

But my DNA doesn’t show it. I looked into it but my sister who’s done a test also has somewhat different results from mine. That said, in my youth I claimed it because I had no reason not to. My great great grandmother was well known to the family and the only family member we cannot trace through various documents is her father.

So who knows. It’s impossible to win the argument. I think she’s doing the right thing.

[shanti]

63. Sounds similar

to my results. I have a smidge, less than one percent, of NA ancestry, as does my sister. My brother doesn't show any. Mother's family were largely immigrants except for one line, Irish, so it's probably from my father's (maternal) line, which has several brick walls. I did find a possible NA ancestor from WAY back (1600's), but I suspect the NA is from one of these brick walls. My father had only one cousin on his mother's side. I don't know her well, but will have to ask her if she's been tested and see if she got any of the dna in question. All of the NA dna is on my X chromosome. Dad never said anything about any NA before he died.

It's possible EW has already been tested and knows her results?

[niyad]

9. isn't it interesting that the descendents of the original inhabitants of this country are the

only ones who have to PROVE their blood?

[Lee-Lee]

10. Likely because the results won't do her any favors.

I suspect, trough no fault of her own, she was victim of the most common heritage mythology in the USA- the “I have native blood”.

Probably 95% or more of the people claiming it are wrong.

Hell, I was raised Native on my moms side, she grew up understanding she was full blooded native. Well later testing is showing her ancestors, the Lumbee, are a higher percnatge of African ancestry than Native and its looking more like the Lumbee people are more descendants is a mixed race people that found it easier to claim to be Native in the south so they did.

Most of the professional genealogists who have looked into it have doubts there is are native ancestors in her bloodline.

She likely believed what she was told growing up and went with it. But it probably wasn’t accurate, as most white people’s claims of native ancestors are not.

[Retrograde]

55. I recently read about the Lumbee

in a book about the 16th English colony of Roanoke, whose settlers vanished soon after. One of the theories is that they intermarried with the locals. There was a discussion on why modern DNA testing is not helpful in tracing any descendants: one of the things brought up was that many Native American peoples adopted outsiders, who could become full members of the group. This was as opposed to the English tradition, which was based on bloodlines. It mentioned the Lumbee as an example of a group that maintained a Native American culture while bringing in new blood as it were from African Americans as well as Europeans (and as possible descendants of the vanished colonialists). So your mother and the genealogists could both be correct.

And yes, Native American ancestry was [slightly] more acceptable in many areas than African: there was even something known as the "Pochahantas Exemption" that declared descendants of that Native woman and her English husband honorary whites - i.e., the one-drop rule didn't apply. Woodrow Wilson's second wife was one of these.

[lunasun]

11. There would be a conspiracy around the DNA test or not enough native blood

Just assholes

[spooky3]

21. Interesting; I had not seen that article. Thanks. Oops--

Last edited Wed Aug 15, 2018, 10:02 PM - Edit history (1)

Just realized that I replied to the wrong post.

[minoan]

12. There is a problem testing for Native American dna. Please read the article below. Very informative

http://www.thegenealogyreporter.com/native-american-dna-test/

[Bradshaw3]

30. Good info

Everyone who comments on this subject should read it.

[redstatebluegirl]

13. Would you like to be tested to prove you are caucasian?

This is beyond rude for anyone to request, much less expect. She should not have to prove her heritage anymore than I should have to have a test to prove my Irish/German ancestry. They would not believe the test anyway.

I would like to see white nationalists tested to prove they are 100 percent caucasian, my guess is some of them would be REALLY surprised by the results.

Senator Warren should not have to "prove" her ancestry any more than 45 should have to prove he is white, or President Obama had to prove he was born here.

[spooky3]

14. I agree with other replies. Also,

There are lots of posts on other websites from people who were told by family that they had NA ancestors, but when tested, the DNA showed no evidence of it. That situation apparently is very common. What if that happened in Warren’s case? She relied on what her family told her and so getting more info now does not make her a liar.

[lame54]

18. I agree but...

I'm not a relentless master spinner

[lame54]

16. And if the test doesn't go her way?

[Lisa0825]

17. All my life, my parents told me that I was part Native American on my father's side.

23andMe doesn't think so.

So am I? Was it just so far back that no genes indicating that survived to my generation? Or was my family making it up, or passing down stories they thought were true but were not?

I'll never know.

If she tests like me, then they'll just feel more confident calling her a liar.

[pnwmom]

52. If you had siblings who were tested they might have gotten different results.

You all would have had the same ancestors, but different combinations of DNA in the mix. With four grandparents you don't get 1/4 of your DNA from each of them -- you get different amounts. That's why you could look much more like one grandparent or an aunt than anyone else in the family.

In my family my brother was found to have 8% Scandinavian, but I had none. We had the same ancestors but different combinations of DNA.

[TygrBright]

19. If your question is anything other than "Why the fuck is this even an issue"...

...please think again about playing their nasty little racist game with the shills and grifters who are pushing this narrative.

helpfully,
Bright

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

24. Right on.

keep it bright!

[flotsam]

20. This

Shortly after World War II, Donald Trump's father Fred falsely claimed their family was Swedish, hiding their German heritage to avoid any problems selling apartments to Jewish customers, the Boston Globe reported last year. Donald Trump was still claiming Swedish heritage as late as his 1987 book "Art of the Deal," in which he writes that his grandfather came to the U.S. from Sweden.

https://www.axios.com/trump-faked-his-heritage-just-like-hes-accusing-warren-of-doing-1513307200-6e741395-7ee3-46ea-a677-635e627a6a83.html

See Mr Trump-sometimes your family stories may not be true...

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

22. Must be bored today.

When dt shows his taxes...HIS TAXES...then we can start in on other Americans claims in their lives. HELL, lets all nit pick the shit out of her and see if we can run her out of town like al franken. Dont worry though...old kristen G will step up to the plate and be terse...and get real informed aout banking laws etc...and hold the banksters feet to the fire.....NOT.

[Blaukraut]

25. Because it's a lose lose proposition

If her DNA shows no NA heritage, she will never hear the end of it, and if it does show a trace of NA heritage, the nuts will still mock her for having the audacity to claim the heritage because the results aren't 100% Native American.

[gibraltar72]

26. My understanding of this issue

is that family lore told her she was part indian. She told what she knew. If that was just a family myth that wasn't her fault. She has proven she was worthy on her own. Give the critics free sex.

[George II]

27. Why should she? That's intrusive and she is under no obligation to prove her heritage....

....how many other candidates have had to prove that?

Proving that heritage will not stop the Pocahontas BS anyway.

[Hekate]

40. How many other candidates? Barack Obama. Plus anybody running against an anti-Semite ...

...or racist.

[FSogol]

29. Did you ever read the kid's book, "If you give a mouse a cookie"?

That's why.

[stonecutter357]

32. cool story bro !

[yellerpup]

33. A DNA test would not necessarily prove yes or no on her heritage.

I am a Cherokee tribal member. Membership in the tribe depends entirely on whether you have ancestors who appeared on the Dawes Rolls, which was like a census, but the only one in America that required people to list their blood quantum. Her story of having a native in the family who was not recognized by the family is not an unusual one coming from a person from Oklahoma. Not all people who were eligible signed up for the Dawes Act land allotments, which was the largest land swindle in American history. Commercial DNA (Ancestry, 123, etc) testers do not have enough samples to pick up all people with tribal registry.

[Rustynaerduwell]

36. You could have parents who are both half Italian

and you could end up with almost none of that DNA.

[Yavin4]

37. Fuck Republicans. Stop playing their stupid games. Call the media out on it.

How the hell does Warren's heritage get healthcare to the people, increase wages, pays for college/advanced training, etc.? Keep talking issues and CALL OUT THE FUCKING media when they ask these stupid questions.

[oasis]

50. +100% and then some!!!

[Hekate]

39. Like Obama was supposed to produce his birth certificate? It is an outrageous demand...

It is in a sense a racist demand.

Senator Warren had a family story she was told, as many of us in America do. I have my own. She was not trying to defraud anyone. The GOP can go to hell.

[Recursion]

41. Because she's not culturally Native American at all and the whole thing was a bad idea

Particularly since it was being used by Harvard to tout their faculty "diversity". If you were a young Native American student having problems fitting in on campus, and you saw her listed as a Native American professor and went to see her, do you think you would come away from that meeting feeling better?

It was an unfortunate decision on many people's part and trying to "justify" it with a blood test just makes it worse.

[WePurrsevere]

42. a) It's HER business not our b) caving into bullies is wrong & c) DNA for ANY ethnicity...

doesn't work the way so many seem to think it does. It's NOT 100% accurate and may never be.

Here are two articles I fond very helpful in learning to better understand how this works. The first addresses the NA more so then the second which is more general.
[link:htthttp://www.rootsandrecombinantdna.com/2015/03/native-american-dna-is-just-not-that.htmlp://|NATIVE AMERICAN DNA Is Just Not That Into You]
and
[Ethnicity Admixture: not soup yet]

Even though I had learned a bit about DNA in HS and nursing eons ago getting into DNA for ethnicity, genetic genealogy and creating a family tree which combines paper and genetics has certainly been quite the eye opener for myself and some others I've met in Genetic Genealogy groups.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. SAFE DEM

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2018/senate/ma/massachusetts_senate_lindstrom_vs_warren-6268.html

[pnwmom]

47. The tests aren't accurate for smaller percents of racial groups, and she was only claiming

a single relative from way back when.

Everything in my results under 8% was listed as "low confidence."

Also, even siblings get different results, just as they get different hair and eye colors and different nose and hand shapes. My brother's results said he had 8% Scandinavian -- and I got none. He and I had the same ancestors, but we got different DNA.

Also, some traits are only carried on the Y chromosome . . . Warren wouldn't have any of those.

[Retrograde]

48. Because DNA testing isn't the magic answer ancestry.com

commercials seem to imply it is. There isn't AFAIK any specific "Native American" (or African or European or whatever) gene: what the tests are saying is that the sample shows patterns that occur most commonly in populations tested in specific areas. And that assumes that those groups are genetically homogenous. When it comes to sampling Native American DNA there are a lot of issues: some groups have intermarried with their neighbors too much, some do not want to provide research samples, etc. The article cited about states that 23&me's Native American reference pool is based on peoples from the Southwest US and Central America: how does that relate to Native American populations from the East Coast, where Warren's ancestors may have come from? Even then, after a few generations of splitting and recombining genes there may not be enough distinctive segments left from the original Native American ancestor to say anything definite.

IIRC, Warren has only claimed a family tradition that one of her ancestors was Native American, a g-g-g-grandparent. It may be true, it may be that her grandmother -like mine - wasn't going to let facts get in the way of a good story.

(I got mine tested. It was mostly what I expected - Northeast European with dabs of German/French [23&Me sticks them together], and Scandinavian - and with a totally unexpected 1% from the British Isles, which as far as I'm concerned is noise)

[honeylady]

49. I grew up hearing that I had cherokee and black foot in my family heritage.

I told everyone I knew that I was part cherokee and black foot. Only because it is what I heard from my family. I had my dna done and I find out that I have no native american blood at all. There was 3% "other". My great grandmother was a direct descendent of Paul Revere who was french. So I thought I had french dna. Do not. Each successive generation dilutes the dna down to where 1/16 native american or french doesn't even show up.

And no I don't think she should present her dna to anyone.

[jcgoldie]

53. Are you serious?

This is ridiculous why should she have to take a DNA a test? The results mean nothing for starters and its a ridiculous racist thing to expect of anyone running for office. Do you think those assholes insulting her won't insult her anymore if she took that stupid test and the results came back she was 10% native american or whatever? Come on man.

[LanternWaste]

54. That's the fundamental flaw in your premise.

"but I just wish this BS would be taken off the table for good...."

That's the fundamental flaw in your premise. You appear under the impression that those half-witted idiots will admit to being wrong if given the chance.

Give them proof, they call it fake.

Allow them evidence, they close their eyes.

Show them numbers, they call it manufactured.

These sub-literate buffoons are yet still convinced Clinton is a criminal and dishonest, despite years and years of investigations finding nothing. They rest their complacent pimpled butts on a big airy bag of bias, and anything (anything) which doesn't validate that bias is rejected without thought, without inspection and without examination.

But you think this one is going to be different? Bless your heart.

[Retrograde]

58. + a gazillion

It's like playing Whack-a-Mole with the lunatic fringe: as soon as you refute one bone-headed talking point another one pops up - and another, and another, ad nauseam

[arthritisR_US]

56. President Obama publicized his birth certificate and look how

well that took the BS off the table for good. He pandered to the RW and it changed nothing. They always expect the left to cow tow to their racist rants and we have to stop that now.

[tirebiter]

59. The Cherokee Nation wants a paper trail to prove relation to someone on the Dawes Commission Roll

There was a census made around 1893 and either you are related to someone on that census roll or you're not. DNA tests are irrelevant to this. I got my Blue card because my father did the digging through family records and state level birth records.

[Pacifist Patriot]

60. Maybe because she didn't claim to be Native American.

Wasn't her comment more along the lines that her family had stories claiming to have Native American ancestry. My grandmother's family had stories they were descended from King Charles II through one of his mistresses. A DNA test result one way or the other wouldn't change the fact that our families told these stories.

[MaryMagdaline]

61. Probably because she figured out her ancestors were lying to her

She has no Native American blood. She believed her family when they told her just as I believed my grandmother was first cousins with a well known Irish freedom fighter of the same last name.

Once she passed on the story, as I passed on my family’s story, in good faith, she can only look like a liar if she takes a DNA Test and there is no Native American blood. She is trapped and I feel bad for her and all of us. Having Native American blood is a common family story turning out to be untrue in most cases.

[Arkansaw]

64. Warren's clame to Native American ancestry.

I am not a professional genealogist but I have been researching for about 30 years. People thinking they have Native American DNA is not all that uncommon. It is one of the most common things I hear from people who are beginning their search. A lot of old family stories are handed down through the generations and mine is not an exception. I waited a few years after DNA became a tool of researchers to have mine done and it did not show even a trace of Native American DNA.
The Dawes rolls are a good source of information but keep in mind they were started in the 1890 and a whole lot of meet and greet happened between 1492 and 1890 and a lot if not most of it was not documented'

[spooky3]

67. Thanks, and welcome to posting (I see you've been

A long time DUer so I won’t say welcome to DU!).

[hunter]

65. A couple of my ancestors had the Mormons baptizing imaginary dead people.

Our family's Wild West religion was "Not Mormon," with minor chords of "Not Irish." Which probably means connections to both.

My last documented immigrant ancestor was a mail order bride to Salt Lake City. She didn't like sharing a husband so she ran off with a monogamous guy who was passing through town and they established a homestead together that's still about as far from a Wal-Mart as you can get in the 48 states.

I've got one great grandfather who is a mystery, nobody will ever know where the hell he came from. I'm guessing it was a time travel accident. That makes about as much sense as anything. We blame all the autistic spectrum crap in our family on him.

[LexVegas]

66. She's white. Everyone knows...including her. nt

[Raine]

68. Warren has probably realized by now that being NA

was nothing more then a family myth passed along and isn't true.