I can't understand why the Nazi Party - the Nationalist Socialist party --

[pnwmom]

and the Soviet Union -- the Soviet Socialist Republic -- haven't ruined the word "socialist" as a progressive brand forever.

The word "socialist" has so many meanings it is essentially meaningless -- but it has been connected with some great evils. We need to teach better history in schools. And we have to get smarter about branding.

It's not like "socialist" is the only word that could be used to describe a Nordic-style safety net. We just need to pick some word that isn't associated with Hitler or Stalin.

[DavidDvorkin]

1. You might as well say that we can't use the word "patriotism" because it's been ruined forever

by Yahoos.

[pnwmom]

3. Patriotism still has a meaning -- a loyalty to country. Socialism has no accepted meaning.

Though the parties of the Democratic Socialists and the Socialists of America both advocate that the government should own and control the means of production and distribution, many self-described socialists apparently think it's just a cooler term than "progressive" or "leftist" or "liberal."

[Garrett78]

8. Robert Jensen's deconstruction of patriotism:

http://robertwjensen.org/articles/by-topic/politics/citizens-of-the-empire-chapter-3-patriotism/

[Igel]

21. I've seen the word "chair" deconstructed.

Doesn't mean that English speakers don't use the word effectively and efficiently every day, agreeing on its meaning.

It does mean that "deconstruction" is a technique of wide and often pointless applicability, often accomplishing nothing that being alone a few minutes with lube wouldn't, um, pull off to greater effect and productivity.

[Garrett78]

24. Read the piece. The concept falls apart no matter how you define it.

[ck4829]

52. +1

[Thomas Hurt]

2. As it is used by the right in this country, socialism is an epithet...

the new N word, a way to describe your lessers.

[ret5hd]

4. Yeah, kinda like "Democratic" and "Republic"!

Democratic Republic of Congo
Democratic Republic of Korea
Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste
Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia

[world wide wally]

10. Don't forget Iraq's Republican Army

[pnwmom]

12. "Democratic" and "Republic" still have accepted meanings -- they are not meaningless terms

even if some people use them falsely.

[Wounded Bear]

13. Peoples Democratic Republic of Korea...

[Igel]

22. The difference is simple.

During the time of the USSR and early China, American socialists and "communists" accepted that they were, indeed, socialist. Nationalization of means of production, command and control economy, making sure that the workers were front and center ... all the right blather.

They quoted Marx and Engels. Had serious discussions. Etc.

Few who seriously support democracy think that "democracy" as defined in some countries actually is democracy. The USSR also spoke wide of "deeping democratic processes" and claimed to have "real" democracy. Only socialists on 5 continents agreed.

Many of those countries are republic in form, by the way, just as they are democratic in form. Heck, even now, here, many consider Cuba to be a democracy.

[Dennis Donovan]

5. My libertarian friend posed this very argument to me last week...

[melman]

17. Funny isn't it?

if you search 'Hitler Stalin socialist' on twitter look what you get..

https://twitter.com/search?q=Hitler%20or%20Stalin%20socialist&src=typd


all right wingers.

[lapucelle]

6. "National Socialist German Workers Party" was a clever appropriation.

The name resonated with diverse factions in a politically confusing era. Republicans have played clever word games like this for years..."Freedom Caucus", "right to work", etc.

Even Uber got into the when their lobbyists/pr people kept referring to NYC's TLC and medallion owners as the " powerful taxi cartel".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. Precisely. Socialism was very popular in the thirties.

National socialism was heavy on the nationalism, light on the socialism.

[lapucelle]

19. I think the idea of socialism is what may have been popular. N/T

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Yes. That's why Hitler appropriated the term.

[Harker]

7. How about "doubleplusliberal?" n/t

[Garrett78]

9. "not like "socialist" is the only word that could be used to describe a Nordic-style safety net"

It shouldn't be associated at all with the Nordic Model. Those who promote the Nordic Model while calling themselves socialists are conflating 2 different things and hurting their own cause.

[Lee-Lee]

44. I've been preaching this for a long time

But people don’t want to start actually using the right terms.

I suspect mostly because Bernie gets it wrong, and many can’t stand to do anything that would cross with what he says.

[Sneederbunk]

11. Not to mention what nazi and communist did to the word party.

[Wounded Bear]

14. Just goes to show that extremism...

whether from the far right (NAZIsm) or the far left (Soviet Communism), leaves not much to choose from.

Once they go authoritarian, it's kind of hard to tell the difference.

[displacedtexan]

15. The party was originally a workers' party.

It started out claiming to be against big business. Then it became more nationalistic, which worked when they blamed "foreigners" for everything bad. Stop me if you've seen this before.

The paralles are astounding, and I seriously doubt Donnie Dumbass has any idea what he's part of, historically speaking.

[vi5]

18. Your "concern" is duly noted. (n/t)

[Voltaire2]

23. This right wing argument was crap 30 years ago.

It is now coprolite. Please stop.

[pnwmom]

25. The rightwing Nazis weren't making this argument. Why are some people

so intent on clinging to a now-meaningless term like "socialist"? Are they deliberately trying to be vague? Or do they think they're being edgy?

[Voltaire2]

30. Why are you so terrified of the left wing of our party?

[Tiggeroshii]

26. Maybe you're right

Maybe we dont need to put a label on doing the moral thing.

[aidbo]

27. Only right wing idiots connect the word socialism to Hitler or Stalin or USSR.

They aren’t going to vote for a democrat anyway.

[Kaleva]

28. I don't think that many connect socialism with Nazi Germany and communist Soviet Union.

[leftstreet]

29. Does 'socialism' include Medicare For All?

If it does, I'm guessing a very huge percentage of Americans would happily be 'socialists'

[melman]

31. 'The word "socialist" has so many meanings it is essentially meaningless'

It's interesting that you say that. Didn't your last few versions of this thread involve repeatedly posting dictionary links?

And insisting that we can't 're-educate' hundreds of millions of people about its meaning? Yes. Yes they did.

[ret5hd]

33. Well...uhhhmmm...uhhhhh...

Touche.

[Older Than I Look]

32. "Nazis Are Not Socialists Nor Democrats Despite What Alt-Right Might Say"

https://www.newsweek.com/nazis-democrats-socialists-alt-right-650572

[SkyDancer]

34. I don't understand why capitalism

hasn't been ruined forever considering how many people die annually under our for profit health care system because they don't have health insurance.

What was it MLK said?

[pnwmom]

35. Is there a party of Democratic Capitalists? I wasn't aware of one.

Or of progressives who reject the Democratic label in favor of a capitalist label.

But I do know of progressives who insist on calling themselves Democratic Socialists while disavowing the basic philosophy of Democratic Socialism:

Democratic socialism is a political philosophy that advocates political democracy alongside social ownership of the means of production with an emphasis on self-management and democratic management of economic institutions within a market socialist, participatory or decentralized planned economy.

Democratic socialism - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

[SkyDancer]

40. Well as a DSA member

I can assure you we do not disavow the basic philosophy of Democratic Socialism.
Are you trying to say that people who belong to DSA can't be progressive? If so I'd like to hear your reasoning behind that.

Democratic capitalists? Are you trying to say that our party isn't one of capitalism? If so Nancy Pelosi disagrees with you.

[pnwmom]

69. Then you are being honest. But I have talked to many who claim they are

democratic socialists because they believe in Nordic style social programs, and that it has nothing to do with the people/government owning the means of production.

I am NOT saying we don't live in a capitalistic country. To someone who said the word was meaningless, I said we don't have it in our party name -- unlike the word socialism, which is included in the names of at least 2 parties.

[SkyDancer]

72. Here is the problem

Those Nordic style social programs ARE Socialist. This is where the issue arises.

This is what DSA has been saying; there's literally no free market health care system in the world that has ever worked. Every one is socialized medicine who has national health care which covers everyone.

Basically you have Social Democrats who have used Socialism and have been very successful with it. We in the United States have socialized programs as well they are just drastically underfunded.

[David__77]

71. DSA, of course, is not a party.

It is no more a party than groups like “New Democracy,” of, for that matter, the Human Rights Campaign.

The Democratic Party is not a socialist party. It is a party of people with varying views on socialism. I think that’s appropriate.

[SkyDancer]

73. You are correct

There are those within DSA who want to start their own party but it is a very tiny minority.

I think the Democratic Party is a party of and for the people which includes very socialistic entities; unions being a very big one.
That being said, there is a seismic shift happening within the party as younger voters begin to take things over especially on the state and local level. You're watching history being made.

[pnwmom]

75. You're right, it bills itself as "the largest socialist organization in the US."

And it adheres to the view that the people/govt. should own the means of production, which is a classic socialist view -- but one not believed by many who lately call themselves socialists or democratic socialists.

People who don't adhere to classic socialist philosophy are hurting their own case by calling themselves socialists, because that word is alienating to so many. Why should people link themselves with the Nazis or the Soviet Union if they don't even agree with the basic principles of socialism? Why the need to use that word?

[David__77]

79. I disagree with the premise of your question.

I do not think people who call themselves capitalists are necessarily linking themselves to Augusto Pinochet or Ferdinand Marcos or Francisco Franco. Not or those who call themselves socialists necessarily lining themselves to the USSR or Hitler.

There are many streams of thought that have been characterized as socialist, including the likes of Tony Blair or Francois Mitterrand. Ron Dellums, Democratic congressman, was a member of the DSA. Socialists have played important roles in the labor and civil rights movements. I see nothing problematic about the word “socialism.”

There was private property and individually owned enterprises in East Germany, for instance. Did that make East Germany a capitalist country? Things are not necessarily so black and white.

[ck4829]

36. "Socialism" is surviving a school shooting or just not acting like a sociopath - Today's RW

The right wing which dominates our government today has defined NOT raping the poor to death as socialism... Since we might as well use that definition, I guess I am a socialist.

[pnwmom]

39. Why do we need to accept the definition held by the worst of America? No, thanks.

But there are many voters in the middle who we shouldn't be alienating.

[scarytomcat]

64. We need to start labeling republicans fascists

fascists are when corporations control the government
to me that is the biggest enemy we need to defeat...corporations/fascism
Huge corporations need to be put back in a box, broken up and taxed more or given a death sentence if they can't play nice and not pollute and oppress workers. They are killing capitalism and competition.
Capitalism only works when it is regulated and tightly controlled.
Worker rights needs to be the Democratic Party's number one goal and mantra. We need to get labor back at the table.
Call it socialism if you want but progressive is a better word. Less baggage.

[JI7]

37. It HAS and IS mostly viewed in a Negative Way

that's why they get into arguments about the meaning of it and how it's not this or that.

[SkyDancer]

41. It's a generational thing

Most millennials favor socialism over capitalism

[JI7]

42. no they don't

[SkyDancer]

46. Yes they do

Linky link

[JI7]

50. that article claims they don't know what it means

[SkyDancer]

56. Again, millennials preder socialism

This Is Why Millennials Favor Socialism

Times change. Trickle down economics has screwed an entire generation who makes over 25% less than their parents. They are the future of the country & our party.

[JI7]

65. it uses the same shit which says they don't know what socialism is

[SkyDancer]

74. Gallup & PEW says..

[Lee-Lee]

45. Most millennials cant actually define the socialism they claim to prefer

That’s a huge chunk of the problem.

[SkyDancer]

47. Where's you get that figure?

http://blog.acton.org/archives/100119-why-do-millennials-favor-socialism.html

[Lee-Lee]

51. Talking to a lot of them.

A huge part of the problem is Bernie running around telling people that the Nordic Model is Socialism, when it isn’t. Even The Prime Minister of Norway was like “Quit calling us Socialist, we are not”.

Socialism means an economic system where there is no private ownership of business or very limited private ownership, with all or almost all (except very small ones exempted) economic activity, resources and means of production/distribution either government owned or cooperatively owned by all employees.

It doesn’t mean a system of robust social safety net and protections, and in fact you can have that withysocialism and you can have socialism without that strong social safety net.

[pwb]

49. I haven't heard a millennial use the word socialist, ever.

I hear pukes use it against us to divide us. Putins play.

[SkyDancer]

54. The fact is

Most millennials prefer socialism over capitalism & I'm going to take a guess you aren't on Twitter much are you because young voters use it all the time.

The only ones afraid of it are the same people who were calling Obama a socialist for 8 years, the moron Right wing.

[pwb]

55. I have some guesses about you too.

Pushing this division here.

[SkyDancer]

57. Why are you so scared of the left

within our party?

They called FDR a socialist too. Do things like a living wages, unions, socialized health care, the public owning banks, the Va scare you?

You know who screams "SOCIALISM WILL KILL US ALL AND IS EVIL!" are those folks who own bunkers and a massive weapons stash. In other words, tea party nut cases.

Division? God forbid there are unions in Walmart.

[pwb]

61. You hit the nail on the head.

The fringes of both parties are abrasive to the parties as a whole. Right wing talk radio and Fox News has defined socialism as a swear word just like Polosi, liberal, even their own guy John McCain are all used in a deragatory way.

My point is why use the word if they have defined it as a bad thing?

Better to call them the Social Democrats and leave off the ism. ism words have always rubbed us here in America the wrong way.

You will never convince me that using the word Socialism or Socialists is a net gain for our cause. It divides and plays right into the republican and putins play book.

Social democrats is the way to go .

[SkyDancer]

62. Do you honestly realize what you're saying?

Take a moment, step back and read what you just wrote.

Now ask yourself this, do you honest to God think the same people who have framed "Socialism is evil and will kill us all!", the same folks who called Obama a socialist, call every single Dem a socialist, are going to ever vote for a Democrat in their lifetime?

Who gives a flying ratt's ass about what Republicans say. They lie continuously and use manipulation to drum up fear which leads to bigotry & racism.

Social Democracy is an entirely different ideology than what Democratic Socialism is. It is based on capitalism. Saying "this name is better!" is like a classic liberal a Democrat when classic Liberals are actually Libertarians.

You will never convince me that letting conservatives drive a conversation and defining a word, screaming the same thing they have been for 75 years is something to be worried about.

It's not.

[pwb]

63. I am not saying anything, I'm typing.

Go back and read your own bullshit. You don't know what your talking about. Your obviously new to politics.

[SkyDancer]

80. When you have no argument

Get so upset that you level personal attacks & use "you're" and "your" correctly in a sentence lol

[ck4829]

58. +1, "socialism" is pragmatic

Over the recent years, we have heard the right wing define...

The policies of Barack Obama as socialism.
Wanting to give everyone healthcare as socialism.
Not acting like a sociopath as socialism.
Not deifying Ronald Reagan as socialism.
Surviving school shootings as socialism.
Not exploiting the poor to death as socialism.
Government services at all as socialism.

And I'm pretty sure if we let them have their way, they will define NOT wanting to throw virgins into volcanoes to appease the Dow and the "job creators" as socialism eventually as well.

We can argue about dictionary definitions and what other groups over the years have called themselves "socialist" throughout history until the cows come home, but we can't keep running away from the fact that today's right wing which dominates the government today has their own definition of "socialism" and that definition is all but openly saying "If you don't believe it's every man for himself, if you're not on your hands and knees worshiping the rich and powerful, or if you are not acting like a deranged killer looking for new ways to screw over people poorer, darker, who are female, not heterosexual, and/or Muslim-ier than you, then you are a SOCIALIST!!!"

[Hekate]

38. I agree with you, but good luck arguing with this bunch

[Harker]

43. If you have a particular word that you favor

perhaps you could reveal it for consideration.

[pwb]

48. They have ruined it. Thats why it doesn't help us to use it?

But it does bring out some here who might not be on our side? Using the word socialist plays into the divide.

[disillusioned73]

53. Thom Hartman had a great point recently...

& I think you are touching on it.. low information voters are a problem.. yes they are, messaging is at times more important than facts or history.. so, Dems with democratic "socialist" leanings could use "FDR Democrat" as a label if the fear their constituents are afraid of the big bad "socialist" label.. it is essentially the same definition at this point..

I like that there has been push back on the socialist front.. let us not forget that rightwingers smeared Obama as a big bad scary "socialist" for 8 years, that dog don't hunt no more.. they have helped usher in actual democratic socialists to the fore - & that is a good thing.. our rightward shift has to end after 40 years - how far can a pendulum swing before it topples?, a slight tug to the left is not enough to right this ship..

[Locrian]

59. not sure which way to go with this....

on one hand I get the negative connotation.

However - the right will always use it a as a label to smear -whether or not it's used or avoided by progressives/left/etc. So in "avoiding" it - you don't win much and are still put on the defensive.

Maybe better to "own" it and try to define what it is instead of leaving the "loaded gun" of the word for the right to attack with???

Best defense is a strong offense etc and all that.

[treestar]

60. It means government owning the means of production

or The People.

Republicans label us socialist when we are not. We are capitalists who want a safety net and realize some things are better done in common. This is true of the Nordic countries too.

[mathematic]

66. Socialist true believers co-opted "progressive"

Not the other way around. The question isn't "why do progressives and/or social democrats call themselves socialists?", it's "why do socialists call themselves progressives and/or compare their positions to the Nordic-style safety net?"

The answer to that second question is pretty clear to me, it's part of a communication strategy to convert progressive liberals into actual socialists.

[jalan48]

67. Maybe we should not argue over labels and instead argue facts. Pointing out the wealth of Americans

like the Walton family compared to everyone else can be enlightening even to Trump supporters. Is this the kind of society we want to live in?

"Our colleagues found that Sylvia Allegretto, a labor economist at the University of California, Berkeley, compared the Waltons’ cumulative net worth with that of the overall population, as cited in the Federal Reserve’s Survey of Consumer Finances. That survey was published in August 2012.

Allegretto found that the Waltons’ wealth in 2010 was valued at $89.5 billion -- equal to the entire bottom 41.5 percent of American families.

The 2010 figures are the latest available for doing comparisons with the net worth of the overall population."


https://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2013/dec/08/one-wisconsin-now/just-how-wealthy-wal-mart-walton-family/

[jalan48]

68. An updated number from this year.

"The U.K.-based newspaper reports that the American family has a collective net worth of £128.9 billion (nearly $175 billion) in its 30th annual list published on Sunday, May 13. Brothers Charles and David Koch, worth £88.9 billion ($120 billion), place second."


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/15/the-walton-family-is-worth-more-than-jeff-bezos-or-bill-gates.html

[pnwmom]

78. I agree that the facts are most important. Unfortunately, DT has shown

that we ignore branding at our peril.

[redgreenandblue]

70. "But Hitler was a socialist too."

Never thought I'd be reading this on DU.

[pnwmom]

77. The Nationalist Socialist Party was the official name of the Nazis. My point is that the word

socialist is both meaningless and tainted.

People who don't at least believe in classic socialism, i.e., the state owning and controlling the means of production, are better off finding some other way to describe themselves. There is no upside in using the term except for getting to feel edgy.

[TubbersUK]

76. Generally, people understand how/why the Nazis appropriated the label

Though of course a few are now buying into (or pretending to buy into) propaganda and disinformation from the likes of Dinesh D'Souza and his ilk.