I don't know, I just don't know.

[LuckyCharms]

Got into a discussion with a Trumper the other day. I do business with this guy occasionally. He's a sweet man. He's funny and he's kind. He's done good things for people. Really good things. He's laid back. I was certain he was a progressive. We never talked politics before the other day. Then, we got into such a deep discussion about our lives that politics came around. He told me he was a conservative. Then it was off to the races. discussion went something like this:

The fuck you are! No really, I'm a conservative. Bullshit. How can that be! I think Trump is a genius and he's done a lot of good things. Like what? Well, look at the record GDP....NO...THAT'S NOT RIGHT...IT'S NOT A RECORD...sure it is! Listen, I don't know where you get your news from, but it's not a record....here is what it is...it is a quarterly number that does not mean shit, and if you insist on viewing it as a good number, then I think Obama beat that quarterly number something like 5 times...look it up. Look it up where? Use Google and find a few different sources. Well, I don't believe any of them...

How do you feel about children being torn from their parents and locked in cages as a matter of policy? I don't want them crossing the border and...STOP ANSWER MY QUESTION...I don't want them taking what belongs to me and my family....STOP, ANSWER THE QUESTION....HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT CHILDREN BEING SEPARATED FROM THEIR PARENTS AS A MATTER OF POLICY? Had to repeat the question about 5 times, then...it's the same thing that Obama did....NOT AS A MATTER OF POLICY WTF....

Me: listen, I want you to watch Trump on TV and pay attention to this. Count the number of times he says "the best" "the biggest" "tremendous" "fantastic". Think about this, really man...you don't think he is all bullshit? How can everything be the best? Him: They all lie.

Blah blah blah. He does not believe in global warming, etc.

At the beginning of the conversation, he says...you're not going to beat me up, are you? Me: Why the fuck would I do that? Liberals are violent. Oh yes, that's right. The liberals marched with Tiki torches and drove their car into a crowd of people in Charlottesville, right? Him: Well, the liberals probably started it when they counter-protested.

After an hour of this, I just said hey...we are not going to agree and your thinking is messed up. You're smarter than this. Open your eyes...you're a businessman...don't you have intuitive skills? Open your eyes man. Take your news from several sources, etc.

Blah blah blah...anyway, this country is fucked. If a guy who I thought was an old hippie is like this...we're fucked and the brainwashing is complete.

[Zoonart]

1. That's the. best you can do, Lucky.

Just leave it with..."You are too smart to thinkn this way."

[yallerdawg]

2. Sounds like my mother - in her eighties now.

Reminds me of the separate realities she and I lived in during Watergate hearings (I was in high school then).

This - "thing" - has been going on all of our lives. We do muddle through, though.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. "I've made up my mind, don't confuse me with facts!"

Your conversation with this guy is a great example of how someone who has a set-in-stone opinion will dodge or deny facts when they are presented to him. Trumpists, when challenged on facts, do just as this guy did: Claim everybody does it only worse; deny the facts are true; claim they don't believe the source of the facts; project negative acts onto the opposition; or divert to a more general or irrelevant point.

The thing is, when people feel strongly about something, being presented with facts that challenge their beliefs causes them to dig in even more because they don't want to be wrong. Your friend (?) is invested in Trump. He doesn't want to find out that he's been duped, that Trump lies, and that everything he believes is wrong. They can't be persuaded with facts; they are controlled by their emotional investment. That's why demagogues like Trump are so effective. People in the thrall of a demagogue can be persuaded only by an emotional event sufficient to counteract their cult beliefs. And no shit, it's effectively, if not technically, a cult.

So here's an interesting article about how the principles of cult deprogramming can be used to try to change the minds of Trumpists: https://splinternews.com/we-asked-a-cult-deprogramming-expert-how-to-talk-your-f-1793857315

[LuckyCharms]

5. Thanks for the article, I will give it a read...

I wouldn't call him my friend exactly, because I really don't see him that often, but I like the guy. He's got a biting sense of humor...really funny.

I got him to the point, 3 or 4 times, where he just kind of stammered and looked confused... I'm hoping I got him thinking, but I doubt it. Very disappointing.

He was really surprised that I was not flying off the handle. He said that people sometimes do at him over politics. I told him that the only thing I would fly off the handle at him about was if he made a comment that was overtly racist. He didn't even come close to doing that. I am really struggling to understand how these people think...maybe your article will shed some light.

[colorado_ufo]

11. No guy wants to realize he's been a sucker.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

13. Exactly.

But sometimes, when they realize they've been both played and screwed, they'll turn on the con with great fury - nothing is more intense than the ire of a disillusioned former cult member. The tough thing is to get people to realize they're being had.

[colorado_ufo]

14. Yes indeed.

[Hoyt]

4. There are tons of people like this. It's not just old folks. They showed up at polls and here we are

[Alwaysna]

6. It's good that you tried to lead him to critical thinking.

Divide and conquer can't occur with hostility.

[Glimmer of Hope]

7. I had lunch with someone recently who claimed to be liberal as can be but

When we started talking about immigrants, she rambled some racist nonsense about how Mexicans are stealing our benefits and bringing down our neighborhoods by sleeping 10 to a room. Also a wall is not a bad idea because they roast hotdogs at the boarder and run across when the guards are not looking! At least she doesn't support Trump.

[blueinredohio]

8. I thought my brother and his wife were pretty cool too.

But when we started talking about the border they believe all the crap the right hands out. And the kicker is they have a daughter in law whose father immigrated from MEXICO! WTF?

[deurbano]

20. They have some giant talent for compartmentalization, I guess. In my family, too, my mother

Last edited Sat Aug 4, 2018, 04:55 PM - Edit history (1)

LOVES her (undocumented!) handyman from El Salvador and his wife (who cleans her house)... and knows goddamn well they aren't members of MS-13... yet she traveled three thousand miles to attend the thing's inauguration. And ALL my husband's cousin's four grandchildren (and one pending) are half Latino, yet he supports that thing.

I think one thing they lack is backbone and the courage to disagree with the brainwashing. I'm not saying I'm exactly "brave" (afraid of mice and frogs and heights and a million other things!), but I took a stand against my family's racism early on (when still in elementary school). I mean, they are all such hypocrites (couldn't let that awful Bill Clinton near the White House again!) and just seem to lack actual integrity and actual morality.

[BSdetect]

9. You need a very long list of facts to counter every false claim drumph made.

Maybe finish with a question?

If drumph has committed treason would you change your opinion?

[OMGWTF]

12. Facts mean nothing to these fidiots. It's all about how they "feel".

[shockey80]

10. Tell him you can kill yourself, your family, thinking that way.

It is exactly the way cult followers think.

[D_Master81]

15. 30 years of Rush...20 yrs of Fox News

Conservative media is powerful in its messaging. Listen to it enough and there's no other source you view as credible. Conservative media spends about 20-30% of the time daily bashing the media and telling listeners that the media has an agenda. So you trying to give actual facts to this man is seen as just from a "tainted" source w/ an agenda. Facts no longer matter and it will only get worse. I always wondered what a Rush presidency would look like since people used to call him and tell him he should run. Now I see it and thats why these people love Trump.

[KSNY]

16. Offer a gift?

After a similar confrontation around Christmas 2016 with family members, I decided that the best tactic is to avoid them and to send a gift subscription to Mother Jones or the Hightower Lowdown to their homes (addressed to : Resident; 123 Main St. etc., etc.)
Who knows ? They might read them or one of their family members might open the mailbox and start to read them, or they might just throw them away, but I felt empowered because it did not cost very much and the money would support real journalism.

[The Liberal Lion]

17. Indeed

I keep saying this. The cure for this cancer that is in our country is more than a matter of a blue wave. We have a serious problem that deals with the mentality of 40% of voting citizens. That doesn't just go away by winning the House or the Senate or winning back the White House. What is the solution? I don't know, but somehow it will end up being the collapse of what we still today call America IMHO.

[BarbD]

18. You can't reason with unreasonable people.

The Republican base is like a cult. We have to ignore them and concentrate on getting out the vote.

[mountain grammy]

19. I give you big credit for talking to the guy and remaining calm

I can't do it. I've stopped speaking to some people and go out of my way to avoid them. I'm enraged at what I see as acceptance of racism and the destruction of our environment and it can't end well.

My neighbor had a state job most of his life and retired with a nice pension but he's a pissed off trumper.. why? He's a fucking white supremacist that's why.

[kimbutgar]

21. Will you still engage him or just be polite with him and walk away?

Personally, he would be like kryptonite to me and I’d say hi and then move on. I am always cautious around those who I know support Twitler and no longer trust them or their judgement.

[Paladin]

22. Don't waste any further time on that guy.

Chalk it up as a good lesson you learned, de-friend him, and go on with your life.

Same for the rest of you: the trump base has consumed the Kool-aide, they are unworthy of any further persuasive efforts from us. Write them off, even the family relations, and put your time into better and more productive efforts. We've got a democracy to salvage.

[steve2470]

23. I really admire people like you who can do this calmly and with facts

Me ? Politics is too much like a religion to me, despite the fact that almost all of it can be objectively verified and measured. I get too emotional about it.

Religion ? As long as someone isn't actively trying to cram their religion down my throat or insulting my religion, I'm good. I could not care less what someone else believes.

Case in point: One of my neighbors is a 70 year old white guy. He's semi-retired, a Vietnam Veteran. He's reasonably intelligent. He's very nice guy. However, he made it clear one day he was a Republican. Thankfully, he just dropped the subject when he saw my face. Ever since then, we've never discussed it whatsoever. I'm afraid if we ever do get into politics, we both will get emotional and probably angry at each other. I don't want that.

I don't know if my neighbor is a Trumper but I would not be shocked if he was. If he comes to me and wants facts, I'll be happy to point him in the correct direction. Otherwise, I'll let him figure out on his own that he's been lied to and manipulated.

[Demovictory9]

24. sad

[lamsmy]

25. Don't attack but get him/her to set boundaries

The best you can do is help him ask himself just how much
1. Establish common ground.
Say - It's understandable how some people might be drawn to his promise of a stronger America - everybody wants the US to succeed and thrive. It's a just a debate over how to achieve that.

2. Ask questions. Don't talk back, don't rebut, just ask. You are trying to figure out his values and priorities in life.

3. Then ask how he feels about the Mueller investigation but very gently. Is it all a hoax or might some people on Trump's team have stepped over a line? What do you think about Mueller as a man, a man who gave up the cushy life and became a decorated soldier, then dedicated his life to public service? Can he be trusted to be honest and honourable? Don't worry about his answers - just frame the idea of Mueller being hugely respected and trusted.

4. Finally ask him to set boundaries. "Just hypothetically, if a president's team did talk to the Russians before an election, what would be crossing a line for you?" Get him to think and about this. If Mueller came back with a bucket load of evidence that shows Trump did coordinate with the Russians, is that acceptable? Can a president do anything he wants even with an adversarial nation or is there a line that he/she cannot cross?

He will either a) refuse to draw a line in which case Trump could kill someone and this guy wouldn't care. If so, give up - he is a waste as a human being.
Or b) he will be forced to say where Trump can go to far. If this is case, you have done all you can do. One day he will see Trump has crossed that line and he has a choice - he can stand by his words or crumble.

[FreepFryer]

26. How do you conclude that WE are fucked when THEY are so fucking stupid? (n/t)

[at140]

27. Give him a break!

Hardest thing to do for most people is admit a mistake.

[smirkymonkey]

28. Well, you tried. You gave it a very good shot as well, unfortunately most of these people

are too invested to be persuaded. I have a friend that I just recently re-connected with. He's smart, funny, kind, etc. I just assumed he was a Democrat because we have never talked politics before but then one day it came up and he said he was a life-long republican and I told him that I was a life-long Democrat. He said "Hey, politics doesn't matter more than friendship to me - I don't really care that much about it." And that was that. I don't know how he feels about Trump or the rest of it, we just don't discuss it.

[AlexSFCA]

29. engaging with trumpers is counteproductive

we can’t win any arguments with them because they beleive their own “facts” and “news”. IMO, perfharps the most effective way to converse with trumpers is to limit the scope strictly to the economy.
Rule 1: avoid mentioning Obama - their brain shuts down the moment you pronounce that.
Rule 2: avoid mentionig Clinton, Hillary, Democrats, CNN, NBC and NPR.

Talk about trade policies, wages, health coverage, foreign policy. There is also some room discussing some aspects of immigration but you need to gauge their views on it first. Every time the conversation moves away from the above topics, steer it right back to the economy.

I had an experience accidentally coversing with a texan who was on a business trip in Cali. He is a self-proclaimed right winger, loves trump and fox news. I was surprised to find that he supports gay rights because he and his wife have close friends who are gay. He said that trump cares about gays (lol). And as a businessman he supports free trade and has favorable view of mexicans (he descibed them the most hardworking folks on his construction sites). In addition, he strongly
beleives putin is our enemy. This happened right before zero tolerance immigration policy took effect. Had it happen after that, I’d cut the conversation very short as I have zero tolerance towards trump supporters.

But my point is, when you talk about specific issues you may find they are actually not aligned with some or many of trump’s policies. And the seed you plant may grow over time.