If they teach the Thai kids to dive to get them out of the caves they should

[applegrove]

Last edited Wed Jul 4, 2018, 11:09 PM - Edit history (1)

medicate them (i edited to replace the word drug) them so they don't panic. Actually they should be on something right now to reduce trauma. It is just heartwrenching. I hope all those fearless navy seals and cavers can find another easier way out.

[Ilsa]

1. Experts are talking about waiting until

the changes in seasons so the water drains out, allowing them to hike out.

I agree about anyti-anxiety medication, though, maybe after they get their strength mostly back.

[applegrove]

3. There is a worry that it being the start of monsoon season they might not

be safe from flooding on the little patch of ground they have now.

[brooklynite]

15. I'll go with whatever guidance the doctors actually with them are recommending.

[former9thward]

160. They are not American kids.

They don't need the medication. Other countries don't medicate their kids like we do. It is not normal.

[Ilsa]

168. Right. No one in other countries experiences anxiety,

especially children in an already stressful, life-and-death situation.

[former9thward]

171. Anxiety is normal.

It is part of our genetics. Helps us survive. Non-anxiety is not normal and leads to non normal and non healthy perceptions about reality. Tell your theories to the rest of the world. They are on the right side of humanity.

[Ilsa]

172. And the concern is that anxiety becomes panic,

which can be deadly.

There are children with depression, bipolar disorders, anxiety attacks, etc that have been helped with medication, even if just situational.

[LanternWaste]

194. Who argued they are in fact, American kids?

Other than that, you appear incorrect on all points.

[SWBTATTReg]

2. Why don't they tag team each of the kids (put 2 experienced cave persons w/ ...

each kid (or more so kids will be comfortable)) and bring each one out? There are probably hundreds of cave persons available that would volunteer.

[CentralMass]

5. I'm guessing it would require cave certified divers and the kids would have to trained to scuba div

I believe that they are 2 miles in.

[tblue37]

103. 2 to 3 km, not miles. Still bad, but only 2/3 as bad as 2 to 3 miles:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44692813


On edit: Some articles do say miles rather than kilometers.

[CentralMass]

139. CNN reported that it is an 11 hour round trip to see the boys.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/07/05/asia/thai-cave-rescue-intl/index.html

[Tipperary]

146. It is 5km, which is 3 miles approx.

[tblue37]

155. Yeah, the first couple of BBC articles I read said 2-3 km. The more recent ones

say 2.5-3 miles.

[canetoad]

6. I get the impression

That diving out involves some very narrow, underwater passages that are difficult for even experienced divers. The size of SCUBA gear makes it even more tricky.

I'm confident that there will be a collaboration between experienced rescuers from several countries that will come to the best solution.

?w968h681

[JI7]

27. How about the potential digging area ?

What are the pros/cons of that ?

[canetoad]

71. Found this on the BBC

Not exactly simple.

Drilling

A round-the-clock pumping operation is in place, taking gallons of water out of the caves. But however much they pump out, the water is being fed by sinkholes and stream in the hills above.

Authorities have tried to drill holes in the cave walls to help drain some of the flood water - although the thick rock has hampered efforts.

There have also been suggestions that drilling could be another way to get to the boys and airlift them out.

But to even begin the process, new roads would need to be built up above the caves to accommodate the heavy drilling equipment needed to break through the rock.
On top of that, Mr Mirza explains you would need to have conducted a survey of the caves and to know them back to front before you could start drilling - otherwise there would be little chance of digging a hole in the correct place for the boys and their coach.

"It sounds easy but it's actually very difficult," he says. "It's a needle in a haystack problem."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44695232

[lapfog_1]

47. thanks for the map... and I note that I was correct in a later post in this thread

there are places where the divers have to remove their air tanks and very carefully push those tanks ahead of them while keeping the regulator in their mouths... and pray it goes well.

I've done that. Once.

My Navy Seal instructor would take us to the bottom of a heavily forested lake... about 60 feet down... blindfolded... and then mess with our equipment (drop the weight belt, turn off the air, etc). This sort of training would NOT be allowed now. Not by civilians. But it made me a very safe diver. And there is almost no way you would get me to dive this cave... except to save lives.

[canetoad]

78. Wow! I'm kind of envious

I still snorkle down among the rocks on Bass Coast (Au.) and it can be a bit scary at times, but nothing like that. I really regret not learning to SCUBA dive when I was younger.

[lapfog_1]

82. if you are still in decent shape... and can swim 200 yards without a snorkel

or 300 yards with a snorkel... it's never too late.

I had more than one couple in their sixties taking up scuba diving when I was teaching.

You have to not have a heart condition or other impairment that would prevent you from diving.

But for "tourist diving" (30 feet or so of depth, no decompression, no cave, no wreck, no night diving, in clear warm water)... almost anyone can do it. The toughest thing to do is to learn to breath underwater. There is something known as the mammalian reflex that some people simply can't get over... that is to be fully submerged and still breath normally through the regulator. Your entire "lizard brain" is telling your body to NOT BREATH... while you higher faculties are telling "hey this is great, breath regular"

But I would encourage you to give it a go.

[Ms. Toad]

93. Some people can't get past the fear of being underwater

E.g. my spouse. For some reason she was sure that I really, really wanted her to dive with me. It would be nice to have a built-in buddy, but it is not something I ever expected her to do (and I'm fine with her not diving with me). She tried three times to pass the OW check-out times, panicked and made a beeline to the surface three times (crystal clear water in Australia, silty water in Ohio Quarries, and I forget where the third one was. (Fortunately, no lung damage). There is a substantial crossover between people who are afraid of heights and people who are afraid to be underwater.

But age is not a barrier.

[elehhhhna]

101. You have to slip through with a tank in front of you, not on your back...

And it's said the kids can't swim. Panic and it's deadly. Silt obscures vision when you dive through. It's possible to train them but the logistics - moving gear, feeding etc. all must be prioritized. It's a mess. The whole route isn't underwater completely so buoyancy vests may be needed for open water w air space overhead...and if it rains the water level can change fast.


Drilling is dangerous even if a geo can figure out where to place the rig.

[disillusioned73]

154. Thanks for posting..

I hadn't seen the complexity of this "cave".. my goodness, what were they thinking going that far in..

[applegrove]

8. Yes but if the kids panic they could easily drown. And they could take the master diver

with them. Plus there are passageways that are so narrow the air tanks would have to come off for the kids to get through. It would take hours to get each child out. They can drop air tanks along the way and fortunately it is not deep, but how do you get kids who have little to no experience swimming to do something only master cave divers would ever attempt. It you drugged them you could lead them along while they did not panic. But what if it takes hours to get each kid out? So upsetting.

[lame54]

80. they are thinking of digging down...

couldn't they widen those areas you are referring to by digging?

[Ms. Toad]

94. Drugged kids diving is a very bad idea.

Taking anything mind altering while diving can easily mean the difference between life and death.

[applegrove]

108. I mean meds.

[Ms. Toad]

133. It doesn't matter what you call it. ANY mind altering med,

Especially any the recipient has not been taking for an extended period of time (in order to know if or how it alters his particular mental funtion) combined with diving (generally) and with extremely dangerous cave diving (specifically) - would be deadly.

Here are typical meds for PTSD, and the contraindications for diving from DAN - especially until well adapted to the medications

Carbamazepine/Tegretol

This medication can prevent or reduce the severity of mood swings; it is also helpful in preventing the recurrence of depression.

Possible side effects that may be adverse to diving:

Drowsiness: This is usually a problem only in the first few weeks. If this persists, use caution while driving or working with dangerous machinery.
Dizziness: Usually temporary, this will disappear with continued use. Avoid this by rising or changing positions slowly.

Valproic Acid/Depakote

Valproic acid belongs to a group of medications called anticonvulsants, used to control seizure disorders, but in psychiatry valproic acid may also be used to stabilize mood, especially in manic-depressives.

Possible side effects that may be adverse to diving:

May cause drowsiness. Know how you react to this medicine before driving or operating dangerous machinery.

Lamotrigine/Lamictal

Lamotrigine belongs to a group of medications called anticonvulsants, which are used to control seizure disorders. In psychiatry, lamotrigine may also be used to stabilize mood, especially in manic-depressive disorders.

Possible side effects that may be adverse to diving:

Dizziness or drowsiness: Know how you react to this medicine before driving or operating dangerous machinery.
Balance problems, dizziness, headache, blurred vision, tremor and nausea.

Topiramate/Topamax

Topiramate belongs to a group of medications called anticonvulsants, used to control seizure disorders. In psychiatry, topiramate may also be used to stabilize mood, especially in manic-depression.

Possible side effects that may be adverse to diving:

Dizziness / drowsiness: Usually goes away with continued use.
Difficulty concentrating: May not appear until after the first month of taking the medication.
Tingling feelings of extremities: May disappear after first month of treatment.
Double vision: May be temporary side effect.

https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/articles/Psychological_Issues_in_Diving_

While these meds (or others in the same class) may be meds that can be safely used by individuals who have been taking them for an extended period of time, under a doctor's supervision, they are NOT medications that it is likely even appropriate to give to these children without a full psychological evaluation - and certainly not appropriate to dive with (even under normal circumstances) absent an extended testing period to determine how the meds alter their mental state.

[hlthe2b]

167. I think poster is trying to suggest non-sedative drugs like beta blockers--likewise with risks

which I've repeatedly pointed out in terms of blood pressure impacts, especially as difficult passages restrict access to oxygen from their scuba gear and lead to ambient pressure variances. It is beyond ridiculous to experiment with these kids when they need their wits about them, adrenaline fueled or not.

From your source (DAN) this is likewise spelled out pretty well:

Commonly used to treat hypertension, beta blockers have a big drawback: they can reduce the heart’s capacity for exercise and therefore affect your exercise tolerance. In addition, if medication restricts the heart’s function during exercise, then there is an increased risk of loss of consciousness, which could prove fatal underwater.

What really saddens me though, is the view of some that we can simply not function under stress without the benefit of drug therapy (or for semantics sake, "medication" therapy). Some 200,000 years of evolution in Homo sapiens--and adaptation through the adrenaline response-- would suggest otherwise.

[hlthe2b]

83. Experienced divers will not be able to be side by side nor closer tha five feet from them...

The course is pitch dark with tight crevices and turns--any one that could inadvertently damage or remove their scuba gear and oxygen, leading to certain death. They will not be able to have an experienced diver closer than about five feet away to guide them, so the training they get is going to be life or death. And, apparently there will be areas where they have to climb as well. There are also areas they could get stuck within. The journey takes experienced Navy divers SIX hours to complete!

These kids are going to have to rely on their own abilities once trained--unless they decide to wait it out or they find a means to drill down to them.

[janterry]

4. It took experts 90 minutes of diving to get to them

n/t

[applegrove]

11. That is a grown man going fast. It will take hours for the kids.

[lapfog_1]

63. That's a long time.

very long. even in water that isn't that deep (column of water on top of you speaking, which determines how much air you use from your air tanks).

They have three options...

1. Train the kids to become good (enough) cave divers.

2. drill a hole down to the kids and winch them out.

3. wait for the water to recede / pump it out and hike them out.

Variables that determine the course of action:

How safe are they where they are at... or can they be ferried to a safer spot that survives a bad monsoon rain?
How fast can you drill (what is the depth, what is the surface terrain where they are located, roads, etc)?
Is is possible to get pumps in place and empty the cave enough to hike out?
How fast can they be sufficiently trained to attempt a dive rescue?

[elehhhhna]

114. If they stay what are the risks of no sanitation...?

[hlthe2b]

7. I think you don't realize how alert they will have to be to get out...

the course is pitch dark with tight crevices and turns--any one that could inadvertently damage or remove their scuba gear and oxygen, leading to certain death. They will not be able to have an experienced diver closer than about five feet away to guide them, so the training they get is going to be life or death. And, apparently there will be areas where they have to climb as well. There are also areas they could get stuck within. The journey takes experienced Navy divers SIX hours to complete!

I have a feeling that unless they can find an overhead area with which to drill down into the area where they are located (and the hunt is on for that), that they will be stuck down there for months until the monsoons end. The alternative is almost unfathomably dangerous for these teens who don't even know how to swim.

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/rescuers-race-to-get-boys-out-of-flooded-thai-cave

[applegrove]

9. They can be really specific with the drugs that will not reduce alertness but suppresses

fear and anxiety. They have access to any drug in the world at this point.

[hlthe2b]

29. NO!

If they do end up having to go out that way, intense repetitive training--that likewise emphasizes every detail of the route is going to be their only hope. These kids are going to have to have their wits about them.

Any sedative therapy is going to need to go to the worried parents.

[applegrove]

31. Of course they need training. But they also need meds that calm fear and do not affect

alertness.

[hlthe2b]

32. I could not disagree more and I'm a medical professional

I understand you are concerned. We all are.

[applegrove]

36. I'm on meds for ptsd. I know how it feels to be medicated not to fear. I am alert.

I have scuba dived. I would not be less of a diver with the meds I am on now. I can think perfectly clearly. We'll have to disagree.

[hlthe2b]

41. ridicuous... these are healthy teens and they don't need drugs they need training

and a lot of damned luck.

[applegrove]

46. The South American miners who were rescued by drilling a few years ago had to wait 2 months.

Some of them have ptsd.

https://www.npr.org/2011/08/08/139003770/a-year-later-chilean-miners-sift-through-trauma

[hlthe2b]

50. and they should receive treatment afterwards as necessary.

By your argument, every person in combat, every police officer facing down violence, every rescue, every survival is DEPENDANT on drugs to get through it. Certainly drugs have their place in mental health therapy, but you are arguing they are required to survive--whatever trauma. By that argument, how on earth did Neil Armstrong step on the moon without benefit of drug therapy? How did my Father, Uncles, and Grandfather make it through some of the worst WWII combat in Europe and the Pacific without drugs?

Sorry, but this is a miserable philosophy, IMO--not to mention the side effects of even non-sedative drugs like beta blockers to "calm anxiety" but which affect blood pressure. Treatment is important, but we survived for time immemorial without them. There is a reason why we surge with epinephrine when under stress. It is a survival adaptation.

[applegrove]

52. Fighter pilots are on drugs when in combat.

[hlthe2b]

53. they receive stimulants not sedatives!!!!!!!

and NO, not all of them.

[applegrove]

55. My point is meds can be a weapon. We don't want those kids to panic

in a dive even cavers would not do recreationally.

[hlthe2b]

57. Training is what will prevent panic, not dulling drugs which are intensely dangerous!

You sound like the dog owners that insist on tranquilizers for the cross country flight only to find the dog dead when they arrive due to the affect on blood pressure. Sad, but a phenomenon most experienced veterinarians are quite aware of.

[applegrove]

60. I keep saying I am not suggesting zombie drugs.

[hlthe2b]

62. and I keep telling you that drugs have side effects including on blood pressure.

I''m not trying to offend you, but it is immensely sad that some in this society believe we must all be on meds.

[applegrove]

64. I'm not offended. I think you are being trite there. On you.

[hlthe2b]

66. Ok.. when the insults start flying, I'm out of here.

[lapfog_1]

67. what happens if one of the kids has a bad reaction to your proposed anti-anxiety drug?

and I have to disagree with drugging anyone (whether stimulant or depressant or other) who is diving.

It simply is too dangerous to risk. Yes, there is a risk of panic attacks... which is why I suggested that the rescue divers go and live with these kids for a few weeks to maybe more than a month and carefully train them... taking them first swimming, then diving, then short passage dives... always with 1 kid and 2 rescue divers.

If the rescue divers are any good (and I assume they have the best), they will know who is going to possibly panic and who will not.

[hlthe2b]

68. I think you meant to post that to applegrove.

It is applegrove arguing these kids must receive drugs.

[lapfog_1]

70. I was agreeing with you..

and providing you with a professional assessment (certified cave diver, dive master, dive instructor).

[hlthe2b]

73. but you said "your" proposed medication" and I'm arguing vehemently against meds..

I think applegrove needs to see these responses, that's all...

[lapfog_1]

76. oh, sorry... got carried away

I had already scotched the idea of drugging the kids before having them try to scuba dive out of the cave in another sub-thread. I only meant to provide you with more ammunition!

my bad.

[hlthe2b]

77. No problem... thanks for your comments.

[smirkymonkey]

117. Beta blockers lower blood pressure, but also reduce anxiety.

I know because I had to go on them and one of the benefits was that they greatly reduced my anxiety. It was almost miraculous.

[hlthe2b]

149. Yes...that is why I mentioned them specifically, but the changes on blood pressure could be

deadly for a scuba diver in those conditions. While beta blockers might be the most innocuous class of drugs offering anti-anxiety effects, they are far from "safe" to experiment on children under these conditions. As I mentioned, there is a reason why nature provided the "adrenaline" effect--the fight or flight mechanism for survival. Stress and anxiety can be damaging on a chronic basis, but it can also heighten awareness to ensure survival on the short term.

I can only hope they find a way to tunnel down to them from above. Until then, I have little doubt those teens CAN be resilient as humans have shown they can be since the dawn of time.

[Chemisse]

157. Normal levels of fear and anxiety can be useful as well.

They keep us alert and cautious and working hard to do our very best.

It sucks to be very afraid, but it can mean the difference between life and death.

[Tipperary]

100. Yeah, i guess astronauts ought to be drugged too.

Wonder why NASA never thought of that?

[Tipperary]

156. How bizarre to want to give healthy kids drugs.

Truly bizarre.

[Tipperary]

59. This is not "scuba diving." This is cave diving for children who do not even know how to swim.

I am a certified diver, and I also was an active spelunker in college. No way do I ever want to cave dive. Drugs are NOT the answer here.

[applegrove]

61. I guess we'll have to disagree.

[Tipperary]

72. I guess you think firefighters and soldiers should be given meds too?

Wow, your point of view about drugs is amazing to me.

[applegrove]

110. I'm talking about kids in a really difficult situation. I mean meds. Maybe my use of the term drugs

is misleading.

[USALiberal]

182. LOL!!! YES Drugs were the answer. You need to apologize! nt

[USALiberal]

176. Well, that is EXACTLY what they did!!! Sedated them! nt

[hlthe2b]

184. And at least two were severely hypothermic and at least one seriously bradycardic as a result They

They were well monitored, but NO I was not wrong in there being significant risks even if managed.

[USALiberal]

185. LOL, ok. nt

[SixString]

179. Seems you were wrong.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210856072

"the boys were sedated, passed from diver to diver, through the cave"

[hlthe2b]

183. And at least two were severely hypothermic and at least one seriously bradycardic as a result

They were well monitored, but NO I was not wrong in there being significant risks even if managed.

[USALiberal]

188. Ahh, no! You said "would be deadly" which it was not. Just admit you were wrong. nt

[hlthe2b]

189. Bradycardia and hypothermia IS deadly. They were well monitored. That doesn't make it SAFE

It added to the risk, but with the amount of skilled divers and the presence of a physician in the cave to pre-assess them, they fortunately weathered those risks.

To suggest otherwise is foolhardy.

[SWBTATTReg]

10. I am praying that a solution to get them out quickly can be found...

I'm sure that no one was thinking of such before since they were concentrating more on finding them, which, thank the gods and rescuers, they did.

There's a lot of smart people down there on the ground and around the world. Surely the collective intelligence of the human race will come up w/ a viable solution...I have full confidence and will pray for them all until they are all out.

[applegrove]

14. Yes. I'm sure the solution will be a combination of things and brilliant. For

now the kids are getting a fiber optic cable so they can use the internet.

[milestogo]

12. I feel panicky just thinking about the whole situation.

[applegrove]

16. I know. I'm on calming meds for ptsd and even I can hardly stand it.

[milestogo]

56. Is there anything worse than being trapped?

The claustrophobia alone would kill me.

[applegrove]

58. Heights get me. I'm a waterbaby so I would love to dive out a passage

If I had to. But those kids don't have the ability or the resources to dive and not panic. Give them all the resources they need. This k laterally.

[smirkymonkey]

118. Just thinking about it is making me almost hyperventilate.

I think I would lose my mind in such a situation.

[CurtEastPoint]

13. Unless I missed it: how did they get in there?

[MissB]

35. Walked in iirc. Then it started raining.

So they can’t walk out.

[murielm99]

17. They have discussed drilling holes to reach the kids

from above.

I will keep listening and praying.

[Phoenix61]

18. I think describing this as a cave is a bit

misleading. If it is so narrow a man with a scuba tank can't get through wouldn't it be a tunnel?

[applegrove]

22. At one place it is that narrow. In other parts it is much wider and is a cave.

[Tipperary]

75. Way more than in one place.

I am going to take a wild guess and bet you have never been caving. And I do not mean any tourist cave.

[lapfog_1]

34. I would expect that there are very long passages within that cave system.

that are so tight that a diver will have to remove their air tank, possibly other equipment, and push the air tank ahead of them (all while keeping the regulator in their mouths and trying NOT to stir up any silt or hit any rocks). I've had to do that very procedure on some cave dives... and let me tell you... I am NAUI, PADI, and SSI certified. My instructor/mentor was a Navy Seal. I am a certified wreck diver, cave diver, diving instructor, etc. I am one of the safest divers you will ever meet. I have personally saved 2 people who would have died on my watch when I was teaching scuba diving in the Caribbean.

I would NOT choose to do this dive... especially with swift currents in the cave.

I wish them all the luck in the world. They are going to need it.

If they are in a place that is safe from being submerged even in the worst of monsoon... it might be best to leave them there until the water recedes or a rescue hole is drilled.

[lapfog_1]

79. almost all cave systems are tunnels underground... with the occasional chamber

with the stalactites and stalagmites.

Sometimes the caves are dry... and sometimes they have active underground rivers.

The typical "visitor cave" is a series of larger chambers connected by very short passages.

This is what people think of when someone says "cave". However, most caves are actually small passages underground (many too small for people) that connect to larger chambers every so often. These are too difficult and dangerous for the casual visitor.

[cwydro]

96. Exactly.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

159. Yeah.

I had been to the caverns in Missouri in eight grade. So when my roommates asked if I wanted to go caving I said sure why not.

Wait what? You want me to crawl in that little hole in the ground?

It was fun to do. Once.

[lapfog_1]

161. I spent time as a teenager in Missouri

spelunking in those tiny holes... and it was fun.

And again, just a few years ago, I was associated with a mining outfit in Arizona... and spent a lot of time crawling around deep underground again (mines are different than caves... but there are many similarities).

And, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I am a certified cave diver too.

You have to not be claustrophobic. My mother was extremely claustrophobic... so much so she couldn't even look at the photos I would bring back from my caving adventures.

Anyway, these kids are apparently in "training" right now... and the interview that Ali Velshi did with a Thai official did not reassure me. He was just a bit too caviler about it (oh they only have to breath on scuba).

Keeping my fingers crossed.

[Laffy Kat]

137. Oh, I just asked why they can't use a submersible. I guess this is why. nt

[braddy]

19. My guess is that it will end in tunneling down. The diving seems too complex even with some

excavation of the passageways, and how do you keep those boys in place for months, it seems impossible to me, I think they would lose control of them over time, even the overseeing staff would have to be refreshed and replaced frequently.

[applegrove]

20. The South American miners who were rescued by drilling a few years ago had to wait 2 months

and they were at about the same depth as the kids in Thailand.

[braddy]

25. Those were adult men and pro-miners who made their living in mines, I wouldn't want to manage

boys that age trapped in a two bedroom apartment for 2 weeks, but it seems impossible to do it for months in that wet cave.

[applegrove]

30. I know. Thats why the kids need meds. Right now. Adults can better regulate their feelings

in a crisis.

[braddy]

37. Drugging them for months doesn't seem very useful to me, it seems more harmful and disabling.

[applegrove]

39. I am talking about anti depressants that will give them a strong baseline for stress.

Things like that. Not meds that will turn them into zombies.

[braddy]

49. I'm sure that they can sedate one if he loses control, but only if that happens. I don't see why

they would want to dope them up for months. Drugs aren't the answer to everything, especially for something that hasn't happened yet.

[applegrove]

54. I'm not talking about doping them.

[mythology]

166. You are talking about doping them

You can't safely give a bunch of people who aren't able to be checked by a doctor mind altering drugs. It would be unsafe and unethical.

[lapfog_1]

74. if they aren't diving... and start showing signs of anxiety stress

then specific courses of anti-anxiety (hopefully with a rescue diver / doctor present) might be a good idea.

I can't imagine... on the other hand, they are stringing a internet link into the cave so the kids can connect with family, etc.

I can even think that maybe having them attend school while cave living would be a good thing (sense of normal activities, and a distraction).

[GulfCoast66]

99. But until the hole was drilled they had no contact with the outside

These kids will have adults, food and lights until a rescue is figured out.

It the water rises rapidly this could still end in tragedy.

[braddy]

112. The kids are kids, and the men were adult men and experienced miners.

[NutmegYankee]

86. The Thai cave probably is made of a much softer rock.

Boring would go faster.

[elehhhhna]

104. Drilling risks collapsing the ceiling and cutting off the cave

[braddy]

111. I doubt they would be drilling at the exact spot the kids are, also, they still have a lot of

exploring to do to see if there are better options or the best place to drill.

[elehhhhna]

113. My drilling engineer/VP friend says it's too risky

He can drop a 2-3 mile slant and is one of the most highly respected in the biz so I'm going to trust his opinion.

[braddy]

116. Now it looks like they may just walk out, they re getting rid of the water.

[onenote]

21. Are you a diver? I am and I can't think of a worse idea

than drugging someone before they dive, to say nothing of doing that to an inexperienced diver.

[lapfog_1]

24. yeah, that would be a bad idea. You absolutely need all of your faculties and reflexes when diving.

[applegrove]

26. I'm not talking about turning them into a zombie with meds. They have

meds now that calm your fears without hurting your alertness. I know I have ptsd. I'm not nearly as upset about the Thai kids as I would normally be if I were not on meds. I have dived. These kids are going to need weeks of teaching.

[onenote]

89. Frankly, I think the diving option is unworkable

I'm an advanced diver with over 20 years experience (and 900 dives). I can't imagine how you could get these kids out -- it's a very long distance and while its not deep water, inexperienced divers suck air very quickly -- not sure how they could have enough air for the length of time they'd have to be underwater.

[Ms. Toad]

98. This. n/t

[lapfog_1]

23. I'm a certified cave diver

and I can tell you right now that taking younger boys who don't know how to swim, training them to swim, then dive, then cave dive with full equipment... is a monumental task.

As for having rescue divers and taking them out one at a time... I'm sure that's the eventual plan (unless they really can wait until monsoon season is over). However... there are some big hurdles. I have a feeling that there are extended passages that was completely submerged and very tight spaces that might have to be traversed by squeezing through for possibly dozens of meters. Anyone that panics in those spaces will likely die, even if there is a rescue diver ahead and behind the inexperienced diver (on one of their very FIRST scuba dives... maybe like 10th or 15th dive). Furthermore there are apparently very swift currents in the cave... the possibility of having the kid getting pushed into a situation that they can't "unplug" due to water pressure is quite possible... not to mention that inexperienced cave divers often stir up so much silt that visibility is reduced to zero.

As a member of DAN ( Divers Alert Network ), I used to religiously read the Undercurrent newsletter (no advertising)... the end of the newsletter was always a page or two on diver deaths (Why Divers Die)... including a postmortem on many, if not all, fatal diving accidents. I remember reading the case of the two Florida divers, sharing a single tank and regulator, diving in only 30 feet of water in a cave in Florida... and they were both found within 10 feet of the cave opening having died due to running out of air. Why? Because not only did they violate about a dozen safety precautions, they apparently touched the bottom of the cave or their fins stirred up the silt so much that they couldn't see, even though both had working flashlights. And not knowing which way to go... they simply ran out of air (only 1 tank between them and no pony tanks, no safety lines, no training, etc).

I do not envy the people trying to figure out how to rescue these kids.

They are located some 3 miles into the cave system (apparently).

Depending on the terrain and stability of the cave formation, the best solution might still be drilling a rescue hole.

They will be lucky to get these kids out safely.

I can't understand what they were doing going spelunking in such a cave system at this time of year.

[applegrove]

28. Thanks for weighing in. It does seem impossible. If the kids were drugged

to not panic it might just work. I really hope they do everything all at once including drilling and looking for another passage out. And use meds/drugs to manage the trauma and the panic.

[lapfog_1]

40. drugs are a bad idea.

suppose they have a reaction to the drug... oops... they are dead.

On the passage out, suppose their reflexes are slowed or they hallucinate... oops they are dead.

The only safe way to get them out is to send in dive instructors to live with them where they are located... then start a crash course in swimming, diving, cave diving, etc. And train them to an exceptional level... I'm sure the kids will pay rapt attention and follow instructions diligently.

Then take them out one at a time with at least two rescue divers on each trip.

That would be my recommendation... unless they can drill a hole and reach them faster... or pump enough water out to stay ahead of the monsoons and hike them out.

[Mosby]

91. do you think they could run a line for the distance

And then the kids could just follow it?

[Ms. Toad]

95. I'm a certified diver - but not a cave diver

So take my commentary on the cave diving portions with a grain of salt. I've been on a line in a few wrecks, and I've been through one open cave system. Lines are only as good as your ability to hang onto it or to see to grab hold of it. Panicking - or being unable to hold onto the line while removing your tank shoving it ahead of, and pushing it through the narrow passages - is probably not realistic. In addition, these inexperienced divers will almost certainly be kicking up silt - so finding the line, once lost, will be near impossible.

[lapfog_1]

127. yup.. to all your points.

not to mention there is apparently a strong current (which is a blessing as far as silt goes... but then it wants to rip all that equipment you took off right out of your hands).

There are a lot of challenges here.

I really hope they go in another direction (drill a hole, drain the cave with huge water pumps).

And I am a certified cave diver, master diver, dive instructor, etc. (now all lapsed as I cannot dive anymore).

[Ms. Toad]

132. I almost had to give up diving

I had vertigo for a year. Fortunately, it was a structural issue and has now completely resolved - aside from resulting in at least one fall every six months (the medical measuring point) becuase when I get off balance, I can't right myself as reliably so I end up on my bum.

(They were looking at Meniere's disease - which would have been a permanent disqualifier)

[applegrove]

109. They already have lines up i heard somewhere. Plus they have caches

of extra air tanks along the way.

[SWBTATTReg]

33. Thanks for pointing the difficulties of such a rescue out. I can imagine ...

that they are all beating themselves up in their minds as to why they are there in the first place. Perhaps a little too late and not productive. I know in places in the Missouri Ozarks where caves are a common hazard (I grew up knowing at least 10 caves around me locally). The one key point always made was...

stay out!!!

Too many stories of folks wandering in to explore and then tragedy hits home.

Thanks for your write up.

[lapfog_1]

48. yeah... I was spelunking those very caves in the Ozarks.

when I was 17. But not a cave diver until a decade later.

I remember a lot of places in the those caves where one had to climb up to a ledge and the squeeze over a lip and fall down to the ledge on the other side... all while trying not to fall 30 feet down to floor of the cave.

Not imagine doing all that with air tanks and BCs and pony tanks, safety lines, etc all underwater.

That is what these kids are facing.

[MuseRider]

45. Many hours under the water here too

and I cannot imagine how this will work. It can but it seems almost impossible. I don't know if the caves cause them to go deeper then rise up causing other problems. I was never happy doing caves or narrow passages. I have done it and I never chose to do it except for one place that I would likely crawl through anything to get to. lol I hated caves and passages and nearly lost my mind trying to keep it together while doing it.

Does the Divers Alert Network still publish? I have been away from this sadly for a long time now. Those Why Divers Die articles were a must read I thought. Anyone can make a tiny, dumb mistake underwater and that would be it.

See you above the reef. Zen Diving

[lapfog_1]

51. sadly, my heart condition has terminated my diving career.

Sigh.

Haven't been a member of DAN for like 20 years.

[Tipperary]

65. I cannot understand their being in that cave without shoes and proper clothing.

That coach does not seem the brightest light in the sky.

[lapfog_1]

69. The cave should be off limits for at least a month

or two before and after monsoon season.

As for the clothing options and equipment and rations, etc.

[Blue_true]

115. At the tight points and other points.

Couldn't the rescuers tension a cable or rope tightly and have the kids and divers pull forward on that. In my imagery, the tensioned rope or cable should eliminate a lot of margin for error. Does any of that make sense for the situation they are dealing with?

[lapfog_1]

120. There will be at least a few safety cables strung all the way...

but in looking at the map I see there there are places where one is underwater AND it is too tight to swim through with your air tanks (all cave divers typically have 2 full size or nearly full size tanks plus a pony tank, plus a dive helmet with lights, probably a weight belt, a buoyancy compensator, at least one flashlight - in this case the kids may only have the helmet light), plus various other items like at least one dive knife (in case they get tangled in something), probably wearing a wet suit and fins (you have to have fins to propel yourself along with all that stuff). So... as I was saying, there are places indicated where the passage is too tight for a diver so equipped to squeeze through... so the diver needs to remove the tanks and possibly other things and push them along in front of them as they crawl/swim along... all while trying not to stir up a lot of silt (one blessing might be a lack of silt in this cave since reports indicate a strong current). This part of the passage might be a few feet or hundreds of yards...

I have done that trick ONE time on a cave dive... I rate myself as one of the better trained and experienced divers... and that scared the shit out of me. I'm sure that Navy Seals and these rescue divers do this sort of thing all the time... but these kids... well... I wish them good luck.

The worst thing in the world is for a diver to panic and/or get stuck. Even with multiple rescue divers and prepositioned spare air tanks, multiple safety lines, possible positioned lighting, etc...

I've saved divers who panic for fear of drowning... they will fight you with all their strength as you attempt to help them, reason and logic are gone from their minds. Even these boys will be dangerous dive "buddies" for the rescue divers.

I really hope they can get enough pumps in there before the rain starts to lower the water level enough to allow them to "hike/swim" out with no diving.

Also, the experienced rescue divers took 90 minutes to reach them... and even though the water is shallow that is going to be a close run thing to get them out with only 2 tanks (plus the safety margins)... and that may mean tank swaps along the way with the prepositioned tanks... again... places where inexperienced divers can panic (I've done it blindfolded multiple times... but then I am a certified cave diver, dive master, dive instructor, etc... with literally 100s of hours in my log book).

Anyway... these kids don't even know how to swim (apparently). They are 2 or 3 miles into this cave system... I do not envy the job of the rescue team should they decide to get the kids to cave dive out of the cave.

[Blue_true]

129. You mentioned putting down lights.

Some wavelengths of light are very piercing visually (toward the longer wavelengths). Could they use a cable and light system(with the lights secured to the cable so they don't displace)?

I don't have any dive experience at all (likely would not do it because I am mildly panicky in tight spaces. I really hate packed elevators and have to consciously practice breathing when in one), but even I can sense how difficult the situation is. That scout coach should never be allowed to lead ever again and the organization should change it's rules to discourage cave or confined space exploration, unless kids are well trained for it, by experts.

[lapfog_1]

131. I haven't seen reports on water turbidity.

so prepositioned lights might not be that useful.

Or they might be a good idea. I'm sure the experts at the scene are thinking about all of these alternative and weighing the pluses and minuses of each aspect of the rescue.

Love to see a video of a dive by the rescue team through the cave system to where the kids are... that would give us armchair quarterbacks a lot more info. But then I'm sure they have better things to do.

[Petosky Stone]

38. Yes.

Drugging victims entrapped in a life and death situation is an absolutely magnificent idea.

[applegrove]

42. I'm not talking about turning them into zombies. I'm talking about increasing their ability to cope.

[elehhhhna]

105. let it go

[DrDan]

43. I am an (ex) PADI Master Dive Instructor - I have instructed many many students

I have seen panic in an 8-foot pool. Plus some of these kids cannot even swim.

Now introduce diving in a cave . . . plus a long way from the entrance.

This is a very high-risk solution - one that should be used only if other solutions cannot be found imo.

[applegrove]

44. I agree with that. Crossing my fingers some better solution can be found.

[lapfog_1]

88. yes... My posting on how to extract them via diving

would only be the last resort.

If where they are at is likely to flood in the monsoons.
If drilling will take months.
If it is not possible to pump more water than what enters the cave system.

then try to extract them via cave diving.

when I first heard they were discovered, but then read a bit more about where they were and the situation with monsoon waters, etc... my heart sank. I hope they emerge safely... but they are still in mortal danger and it certainly isn't over yet

[DrDan]

90. agree 100%

and without drugs - it is going to be dangerous enough

I haven't heard anything about water temperature. I have spent some time diving in Thailand and the ocean is nice and warm. But not sure what the temps are in the caves.

[lapfog_1]

92. just took a look at some of the rescue divers

can't be too cold, they are wearing light (less than 1/4 inch) wetsuits... not dive skins. nobody looks chilly. However, the location is in the far north of Thailand... a little bit mountainous. My guess is the the wetsuits are more for hazard protection than for cold temp. On the other hand, I'm sure it's not as warm as what I was used to (Caribbean).

Apparently one article indicated that they were starting the training for a dive rescue (training the boys).

But then they also said that if they could pump enough water out before the expected rain later this week, they would try to swim/hike out without the dangerous underwater diving part.

[DrDan]

106. starting the training is a good idea - get masks on them - get them underwater a bit

[roamer65]

162. Yes, cave diving is only for select, experienced open water divers.

You have to be very meticulous and patient to do it. I chose not to cave dive. I simply did not want the added risk.

[Demovictory9]

81. is the US offering equipment and expertise?

[JI7]

84. Yes there are american experts helping them also

[cwydro]

97. British divers are there too.

They found the kids.

[csziggy]

85. Reports earlier today said one of the boys heard a rooster

That gave hope that there is a passage to the surface close to where the boys are. The reporter said teams are combing the surface looking for openings. Even if the openings are small, that might be a better route to get the boys out.

They cannot pinpoint the location of the rooster heard - there are chickens running wild all over that area.

They also talked about equipment that can locate were the boys are in relationship to the surface so maybe they could dig a shaft down to them. Until they can get that equipment it will not be clear how deep below ground they are or where they are in relationship to the entrance.

[malaise]

87. The entire situation is frightening

Sometimes adults are totally irresponsible

[tblue37]

102. Yeah--I can't imagine what the adult was doing taking them into that

deep a cave with such narrow access--and during the monsoon season:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44692813

The Tham Luang cave complex is regularly flooded during the rainy season which lasts until September or October.

[malaise]

153. Great link

Thanks.

[smirkymonkey]

119. That's what I was thinking malaise.

WTF was the coach thinking in the first place? Stupid, stupid idea! Especially at this time of year. I just hope they all get out of there safely.

[malaise]

145. He's the Asst coach - an idiot

[left-of-center2012]

107. I think drugging the kids is a horrible idea

They need to be as alert as possible.

[moondust]

121. Some spots along the route are so

constricted/narrowed/squeezed that the divers had to remove their tanks to get through them. And the water is sandy/muddy. Per Sky News tonight.

[lapfog_1]

124. done it once

and your emoji is exactly correct.

and I have dive certificates out the wazzoo (cave, night, wreck, master, instructor, etc).

You have to stop (in a strong current that, in this case, probably wants to push you into the passage), take your tanks off but keep the regulator in your mouth (you will need to breath), and then hold on as best you can to the tanks (you don't want the current to rip the tanks out of your hands and the regulator out of your mouth) and gently push them ahead of you as you squeeze along the tight passage.

Yes there will be cables to follow. Yes there will be a rescue diver in front of you (so maybe the tanks don't disappear if you happen to loose your grasp) and one behind. But if they panic in the middle of the "tight passage" there isn't much the rescue divers can do if you swallow a big gulp of water and start coughing and drowning... you will panic at that point... and die right in front of your rescuers.

[moondust]

126. Yikes.

Maybe they can get the water pumped out before the rains come so that those kids, some of whom can't even swim, won't have to try anything that dangerous.

[lapfog_1]

130. I really hope so.

They should start the training now (and I think they have) just in case.

But I really hope they can simply hike / swim out without diving.

And I worry that with a big monsoon downpour... their "safe area" might flood... so there is a time factor. Training the kids in a few days for a cave dive rescue attempt... well, only if there isn't any other choice.

[greyl]

122. Booo.

Apparently, the kids are an adventurous lot. With that attitude and several days of nourishment, their bodies should produce a fine mix of chemicals to help endure their next gauntlet.

[applegrove]

123. I just don't think kids are prepared for a grewling maze of tunnels and cave that only the steeliest

master divers ever try.

[lapfog_1]

125. no, they are certainly not ready for this.

and I don't care how much food and so on they get.

BTW, as a Dive Master and Dive Instructor... I've personally witnessed people who are "macho men" who probably can swim miles in the open ocean... turn into quivering wimps just putting a tank and mask and regulator on in THE SWIMMING POOL and try to dive in the deep end. Some people just cannot overcome the urge to not breath when fully submerged. So they panic and want to get their heads out of the water to breath.

Since these kids (at least some of them) can't swim... this rescue by cave diving 2 to 3 miles with tight passages where one has to remove their air tanks... well...

I would not want to be one of the rescue divers on this mission.

I really hope there is another solution that works out for them.

I think giving them anti-anxiety medication while they are on "dry land" underground for the duration of time it takes to either pump the water out or drill a rescue hole is a fine idea (but only if there is a rescue diver / doctor there with them).

I don't like the idea of giving them drugs and having them attempt to cave dive out.

I don't like the idea of them cave diving their way to safety at all.

[applegrove]

128. I think if they were given anti anxiety medication for a few weeks they could be monitored

Last edited Thu Jul 5, 2018, 02:57 AM - Edit history (1)

for any reaction and then by the time they are fully trained divers they would just continue the meds. Like you i hope they find another way out. I have scuba dived twice in open water and it was lakes or slow moving river. I am one of those people who immediately loved it in all its 3D but i am a fish. Always was. Maybe a few of these kids are fish too and will take to diving right away. My worry is for the ones who won't.

[Ms. Toad]

134. Twice, in ideal settings,

is not sufficient to evaluate whether meds are a good idea under rigorous conditions like these. I have over a hundred dives under my belt (which is still extremely minimal to have any real sense of what faces these kids - but enough to give me a healthy respect for what can go wrong - even in the best of circumstances - and how alert and oriented you must be to do even a fraction of what faces them).

All of the current medications I have found for PTSD have dizziness or drowsiness as a side effect (your experiences notwithstanding).
There is plenty of worry for all of the kids - swimmers or not - without adding the possibility of an altered mental state to make their ability to handle getting through it even less likely.

[applegrove]

135. It is just so scary. I want them safely out. At least they have full on masks

these days.

[Tipperary]

148. Spot on. I would never mix drugs with even swimming, much less diving.

[exboyfil]

152. Can tanks trail behind them

I don't know anything about diving, but can you restrain them and allow the dive masters totally shepherd them through the dive.

[lapfog_1]

158. I thought about this but I suspect it isn't possible

strap the kid (one at a time) into a firefighter basket, put air tanks in another, and have the rescue divers feed them through any tight passages... however, if there were any places in the passage where there were "kinks" (either side to side or up/down) this would prevent such an arrangement from working. Obviously one would have to do a number of test runs to see if this was possible. On the one cave dive that I did where I had to remove my air tanks and push them ahead of me while still using them to breath... it would not have been possible as the passage required me to wiggle along to get by.

If the kids were small enough... such a thing should work (no longer than a standard air tank, for example). But they look to be 10 or 12 years old..

Anyway, this is all rank speculation... I haven't seen the actual dive path and have limited knowledge of the conditions.

[Laffy Kat]

136. This is probably stupid, but why can't they use a submersible?

My heart aches for the boys and their families. At least there is a grown up with them.

[JI7]

138. i think the problem is the narrow spaces where they can't get things through easily enough

[Laffy Kat]

141. Yes, I should delete that post. I figure it out when I read more of the replies.

[JI7]

143. no, keep it up, others might have similar questions

and replies are very useful.

[Laffy Kat]

144. Yep, I thought of that too and left it up. nt

[applegrove]

140. I think there are all kinds of grownups with them all the time at this point. I hear a doctor went

in. Hopefully the grownups can keep.their spirits up. Submersible would only work in a few places. The caves and tunnels go up and down. Some places that are dry the kids will have to climb up. It is a heartbreaking hot mess to get out of.

[Laffy Kat]

142. Poor kids. At least they'll have a heck of a story for their own children.

Man, you could not pay me enough to go spelunking. My. Worst. Nightmare.

[Lee-Lee]

147. Giving meds to children who you have no idea of their reactions or allergies while trapped in a cave

Even without getting into the insane ideas of medicating them before an extremely hazardous dive, just the idea of experimenting with new drugs none of these kids have ever been on, so you have no idea about possible reactions or side effects, when they are trapped deep underground is a horrible idea even before you get into the diving.

I doubt they have a doctor who is a cave diver, so they have most likely a military medic. Well trained, but trained in trauma and treating battlefield injuries and not in general care or dealing with reactions to various pharmaceuticals. So you get one of the kids having an adverse reaction and you are in deep trouble, with that medic having to hopefully be able to treat it only with whatever supplies they have managed to get in, and with no chance to evacuating then to further care after that.

[applegrove]

163. A doctor has already been in to see them. A real doctor.

[Tipperary]

169. He is a doctor yes. A Thai Navy Seal doctor.

Not all doctors have tons of experience with mood altering drugs. What is your deal with wanting these kids drugged? I find it horrifying. I would be willing to bet money that no one involved in this is even considering such a thing.

[applegrove]

170. I have ptsd. I'm on meds that keep me alert yet dampen down fear. I

just don't want those kids to suffer or panic if they end up doing an extremely difficult dive out of the caves. I think that is obvious.

[Phentex]

190. exactly how much did you bet?

enough to buy dinner?

[brooklynite]

150. Apparently these kids don't even know how to swim...

...much less how to scuba dive.

[applegrove]

164. It will take weeks to turn them into little fish with tons of practice.

[disillusioned73]

151. In a conversation yesterday..

I said almost the exact same thing..

[Edim]

165. How about

laying some kind of large diameter hose (16-inch) or piping through the underwater passages and pulling the kids through it? I know it's not easy..

[Hassin Bin Sober]

173. I guess you called it.

they were given anti anxiety medicine for the trip out.

https://nypost.com/2018/07/10/thai-kids-were-sedated-before-dangerous-journey-to-safety/

[applegrove]

174. I'm on it for ptsd so I know. I've also dived before.

Last edited Tue Jul 10, 2018, 11:39 PM - Edit history (1)

[Phentex]

175. You were spot on it seems...

[applegrove]

178. Yes. I've dived and I've been on meds to stop fear and panic attacks.

I used the term drugs though which may have confused others. We all were upset, powerless and wanting to help. Nobody should feel bad about that.

[0rganism]

177. and so they did, you smart person you

major cred boost to your side

[Kali]

180. I missed this thread.

Wow. I am not sure how I would have commented here but it turned out to be a pretty interesting one. We sure are an opinionated bunch, not just on politics either.

So glad they all got out, now the recovery. I worry a bit for the coach.

Take care, applegrove.

[applegrove]

187. Yes. I worry about the coach too. Thanks.

[USALiberal]

181. A LOT of posters owe you an apology!! Great idea! nt

[applegrove]

186. Nope. I did not call the tethering of the kids to their lead diver which makes

the thought of a sedated kid much easier to accept. So I was only half right. But thanks anyway.

[Hav]

191. Good catch and in hindsight it makes sense

I think many don't realize what a long distance around 3 miles can be. Not sure how much that is underwater but if you are not used to it, you'll be tired after just 100-200 metres of swimming. I was always wondering how they were gonna be able to do that by themselves. It seems they concluded it was impossible.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

192. Good call

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210856072

[braddy]

193. They drained enough of the cave that the kids didn't need to dive and swim, they were simply

carried and passed along, sedation is OK under that condition of course.

[Lee-Lee]

195. You were more right than I was

I didn’t think it would be done or could be down safely. Gotta say I called that one very wrong.