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kentuck

(111,103 posts)
Sat Jun 30, 2018, 08:33 AM Jun 2018

Can you imagine ever voting for a KKK member because he is a Democrat and....?

...he supports women's rights, national health insurance, and an increase in the minimum wage?

That's what I hear Republicans say, such as the moron on Bill Maher's show last night, when they say they support some of the policies of Trump and some they are against. They are OK with a vulgar racist pig so long as he supports tax cuts and nominates right-wing judges. They are able to overlook any flaws in character so long as they can get their taxcuts. Racism and misogyny are not disqualifiers.

However, no sane Democrat would vote for a member of the KKK, no matter if they had been a lifetime Democrat and were supportive of almost all of the Democratic agenda. There are certain qualities in people that society should never accept as normal and could be over-looked if they were right on every other issue.

Republicans are wrong on this. It is not just about politics and who wins or who loses. It is about principles and morality and what is right for our country.

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Can you imagine ever voting for a KKK member because he is a Democrat and....? (Original Post) kentuck Jun 2018 OP
Great analogy! lkinwi Jun 2018 #1
Not if he were a current member, but a FORMER member? Yeah Maeve Jun 2018 #2
People can repent and change EffieBlack Jun 2018 #8
I agree and that is part of my point. But we risk falling into a purity trap Maeve Jun 2018 #11
I agree EffieBlack Jun 2018 #14
Byrd never changed. former9thward Jun 2018 #20
I agree with you 100%... ret5hd Jun 2018 #3
Think that would apply to Jim Justice wellst0nev0ter Jun 2018 #15
100 percent correct... NT N_E_1 for Tennis Jun 2018 #4
Wouldn't happen. The KKK is uber-Christian and wouldn't support democratic programs. no_hypocrisy Jun 2018 #5
When you start compromising on your core beliefs, all the rest isn't far behind. democratisphere Jun 2018 #6
Would voting for someone else violate the TOS? nt MichMan Jun 2018 #7
Who was it? That douche Shapiro? CurtEastPoint Jun 2018 #9
Yes. I think he presented a very weak argument... kentuck Jun 2018 #13
True. But, by the same token EffieBlack Jun 2018 #10
Eventually, in my opinion, if we do not stand for what is ethical and right... kentuck Jun 2018 #12
"Standing on principles" sounds great but EffieBlack Jun 2018 #16
I think I understand what you are saying?... kentuck Jun 2018 #18
What specific principles are you referring to? EffieBlack Jun 2018 #19
I agree that we cannot always get everything we want on the first attempt... kentuck Jun 2018 #21
I think we're completely on the same page on this. EffieBlack Jun 2018 #22
We have to be. kentuck Jun 2018 #23
Some Democrats would, because Democrats are people and people do terrible things all the time. WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2018 #17

Maeve

(42,282 posts)
2. Not if he were a current member, but a FORMER member? Yeah
Sat Jun 30, 2018, 08:39 AM
Jun 2018

One who renounced it, who claimed it was the worst mistake he'd ever made...

Remember Bob Byrd?

 

EffieBlack

(14,249 posts)
8. People can repent and change
Sat Jun 30, 2018, 09:12 AM
Jun 2018

And when they do, I'm glad to embrace them. Robert Byrd was in that category. So was Hugo Black, a former Klan member who was part of the Court that ruled segregation unconstitutional.

Maeve

(42,282 posts)
11. I agree and that is part of my point. But we risk falling into a purity trap
Sat Jun 30, 2018, 09:28 AM
Jun 2018

There is a move against nuance, where even an accusation of former misconduct is treated as a dis-qualifier and must be denounced to show our own righteousness.

I don't disagree with kentuck's basic premise--character matters. Character, or rather the lack thereof, is one of the things I strongly despise about tRump. And there is strong data to suggest that his backers accept great flaws for the policy gains; I wonder whatever happened to the concept of ends not justifying means that conservatives used to claim as a virtuous motto. But I am also leery of declarations of our own 'just cause' and demonization of the 'other'. It too easily escalates into violence and violence will only serve the authoritarian (Chicago 1968 helped re-elect Nixon). I'm afraid of a long hot summer and so I speak in favor of emotional restraint. I fear for my country now more than ever in my lifetime.

 

EffieBlack

(14,249 posts)
14. I agree
Sat Jun 30, 2018, 09:58 AM
Jun 2018

There's a big difference between someone who made a mistake or was misguided and then grew and changed and people who are currently on the wrong side of history.

former9thward

(32,025 posts)
20. Byrd never changed.
Sat Jun 30, 2018, 10:51 AM
Jun 2018

He boasted about voting against both black nominees to the Supreme Court -- Thurgood Marshall and Clarence Thomas. He did not care about their politics or merits -- only the color of their skin. In the 2000s he was caught using the "N" word twice -- once on the radio and once on national TV.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/18/AR2005061801105_3.html?noredirect=on

ret5hd

(20,495 posts)
3. I agree with you 100%...
Sat Jun 30, 2018, 08:41 AM
Jun 2018

I went back and forth here on DU with a poster (that had more than a few supporters) that proclaimed we should vote for Satan himself if he has a D after his name. I disputed that. I first questioned if they literally meant Satan himself. Why yes, Satan himself if he was running as a Democrat. I further questioned the logic of such an action, what with the inherent dishonesty, etc. Didn't matter, all that mattered was the D after his name.

But gladly this atheist agrees with you.

 

wellst0nev0ter

(7,509 posts)
15. Think that would apply to Jim Justice
Sat Jun 30, 2018, 10:00 AM
Jun 2018

He had a D, but he turned out to be a repuke in sheeps clothing all along.

no_hypocrisy

(46,122 posts)
5. Wouldn't happen. The KKK is uber-Christian and wouldn't support democratic programs.
Sat Jun 30, 2018, 08:57 AM
Jun 2018

As an aside, my father was being a jerk b/c my brother/his son had converted from Judaism to Sufiism (Islam). I was fine with it and he wasn't.

Dad rhetorically asked what would be my feeling about him if he told me he was a Nazi. I immediately responded, "I don't think they take Jews, Dad . . . . . "

He pushed on. Dad then asked me how I'd feel about him if he were a member of the KKK. (Ignoring the fact that both Nazis and KKK don't take Jews . . . . )

I said, "Three things. One, you'll always be my father. Two, I'll always be your daughter. (Big sigh . . . . ) And three, don't come looking for me to help you burn a cross . . . . "

Dad left me alone for the rest of the night after that exchange.

democratisphere

(17,235 posts)
6. When you start compromising on your core beliefs, all the rest isn't far behind.
Sat Jun 30, 2018, 09:06 AM
Jun 2018

We can not become a racist state and if we keep cutting taxes to the people with most of the wealth, the total collapse of our economy and financial system will not be far behind. redumbliCONS have historically and repeatedly brought US to the brink!

 

EffieBlack

(14,249 posts)
10. True. But, by the same token
Sat Jun 30, 2018, 09:26 AM
Jun 2018

Imagine how effective we'd be if we were committed enough to our issues and priorities to put aside petty nitpicking and vote for candidates we knew would protect them.

For example, this would be a different world right now if progressives were even half as willing to support the candidate who would nominate federal judges who would uphold civil rights, worker rights, reproductive rights. etc., even if she wasn't perfect, didn't give them the warm fuzzies or they thought she was a "corporatist" (whatever that means) as Republicans were to go to the mat for a hateful, bigoted fascist "because the Supreme Court."

kentuck

(111,103 posts)
12. Eventually, in my opinion, if we do not stand for what is ethical and right...
Sat Jun 30, 2018, 09:45 AM
Jun 2018

we tend to tie ourselves in knots looking for political advantage. I think this is a time we should stand on principles. Just my opinion.

 

EffieBlack

(14,249 posts)
16. "Standing on principles" sounds great but
Sat Jun 30, 2018, 10:07 AM
Jun 2018

the question becomes what are those principles and what those principles actually mean. Adhering to some abstract principles while real people suffer and refusing to take steps that can help them because it requires one to do something that does not exactly and perfectly mirror those principles in their most pristine form.in my view, is the height of unprincipled behavior. In fact, it has little to do with principle but is much more closely attached to privilege and dogmatism.

I can only imagine where we'd be if our great leaders of the 20th century Civil Rights struggle were so insistent on making the perfect the enemy of the good.

kentuck

(111,103 posts)
18. I think I understand what you are saying?...
Sat Jun 30, 2018, 10:19 AM
Jun 2018

...but the long-standing principles of the Democratic Party are not "abstract". They have been tested over a long time of difficult struggles. But, I don't think we have to look for the perfect in pursuit of the good. The politics of Donald Trump and his supporters are starkly different and do not represent justice or the goodness of the American people. We should represent inclusiveness and equality, not privilege and dogmatism. The "principles" of the Democratic Party are well-known and are far from perfect. It's a journey which has not been completed.

 

EffieBlack

(14,249 posts)
19. What specific principles are you referring to?
Sat Jun 30, 2018, 10:43 AM
Jun 2018

We have certain principles that are very aspirational, along with other principles that are very immediate.

I agree, for example, that inclusiveness and equality are important, critical principles. But does that mean that, unless we can achieve full inclusiveness and full equality in every way, in this moment, we should not select an option that gets us at least part way there?

Do we allow a candidate who will deeply damage people to win because we refuse to vote for a candidate who we think is not as progressive as we want them to be? In my view, refusing to vote for that candidate is not standing on principle. It's allowing an abstract notion of perfection to stand in the way of actual progress.

Many people have a revisionist view of the civil rights struggle, thinking that Dr. King, Thurgood Marshall, and other civil rights leaders refused to compromise when in reality, the struggle was all about compromise in order to make baby steps toward progress.

For example, did you know that the Montgomery Bus Boycott didn't fully desegregate the city buses? It resulted in a compromise version of segregation whereby whites would still sit in the front and blacks would still sit in the back. White riders would continue to fill up the bus from front to back and blacks would fill up from back to front. The change was that blacks would no longer have to give up their seats to white riders. Instead, when the black section filled up, blacks could then sit in the front white section, as long as there were seats available and when the white section filled up, whites could sit in the black section.

Certainly, some purists of today would insist that such a compromise was a sellout of "principles"- that unless full desegregation occurred, the boycott should continue. But the organizers saw this as a major victory and knew that incremental change was more important than waiting out for a revolution. And they were right - just as they expected, it was not long before the buses became completely desegregated.

The idea that anyone believes that "standing on principle" meant not voting for the only candidate who could have stopped Donald Trump and that the pain, suffering and damage that results to people is a price we must pay (or actually, THEY must pay, since the people taking this stand aren't really paying any serious personal price) in order to eventually achieve some principle is absolutely despicable to me.

kentuck

(111,103 posts)
21. I agree that we cannot always get everything we want on the first attempt...
Sat Jun 30, 2018, 10:57 AM
Jun 2018

..and that we should not desert the goal because it is not "perfect".

We should support that which is going in the right direction. We may not get there today or tomorrow but we know that someday we will get there. But, we also know that we must keep pushing. Power has never been surrendered voluntarily.

However, we have to understand what direction we are headed or we stand on no principles at all.

It is not a perfect world. Our duty is to move forward, not backwards. From history, we should know right direction from wrong direction.

But to quote Dr. King, “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice”. That is where we should stand.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,357 posts)
17. Some Democrats would, because Democrats are people and people do terrible things all the time.
Sat Jun 30, 2018, 10:10 AM
Jun 2018

Party identification doesn't make you do some things but not others.

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