General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCan you imagine ever voting for a KKK member because he is a Democrat and....?
...he supports women's rights, national health insurance, and an increase in the minimum wage?
That's what I hear Republicans say, such as the moron on Bill Maher's show last night, when they say they support some of the policies of Trump and some they are against. They are OK with a vulgar racist pig so long as he supports tax cuts and nominates right-wing judges. They are able to overlook any flaws in character so long as they can get their taxcuts. Racism and misogyny are not disqualifiers.
However, no sane Democrat would vote for a member of the KKK, no matter if they had been a lifetime Democrat and were supportive of almost all of the Democratic agenda. There are certain qualities in people that society should never accept as normal and could be over-looked if they were right on every other issue.
Republicans are wrong on this. It is not just about politics and who wins or who loses. It is about principles and morality and what is right for our country.
lkinwi
(1,477 posts)Maeve
(42,282 posts)One who renounced it, who claimed it was the worst mistake he'd ever made...
Remember Bob Byrd?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)And when they do, I'm glad to embrace them. Robert Byrd was in that category. So was Hugo Black, a former Klan member who was part of the Court that ruled segregation unconstitutional.
Maeve
(42,282 posts)There is a move against nuance, where even an accusation of former misconduct is treated as a dis-qualifier and must be denounced to show our own righteousness.
I don't disagree with kentuck's basic premise--character matters. Character, or rather the lack thereof, is one of the things I strongly despise about tRump. And there is strong data to suggest that his backers accept great flaws for the policy gains; I wonder whatever happened to the concept of ends not justifying means that conservatives used to claim as a virtuous motto. But I am also leery of declarations of our own 'just cause' and demonization of the 'other'. It too easily escalates into violence and violence will only serve the authoritarian (Chicago 1968 helped re-elect Nixon). I'm afraid of a long hot summer and so I speak in favor of emotional restraint. I fear for my country now more than ever in my lifetime.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)There's a big difference between someone who made a mistake or was misguided and then grew and changed and people who are currently on the wrong side of history.
former9thward
(32,025 posts)He boasted about voting against both black nominees to the Supreme Court -- Thurgood Marshall and Clarence Thomas. He did not care about their politics or merits -- only the color of their skin. In the 2000s he was caught using the "N" word twice -- once on the radio and once on national TV.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/18/AR2005061801105_3.html?noredirect=on
ret5hd
(20,495 posts)I went back and forth here on DU with a poster (that had more than a few supporters) that proclaimed we should vote for Satan himself if he has a D after his name. I disputed that. I first questioned if they literally meant Satan himself. Why yes, Satan himself if he was running as a Democrat. I further questioned the logic of such an action, what with the inherent dishonesty, etc. Didn't matter, all that mattered was the D after his name.
But gladly this atheist agrees with you.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)He had a D, but he turned out to be a repuke in sheeps clothing all along.
N_E_1 for Tennis
(9,734 posts)no_hypocrisy
(46,122 posts)As an aside, my father was being a jerk b/c my brother/his son had converted from Judaism to Sufiism (Islam). I was fine with it and he wasn't.
Dad rhetorically asked what would be my feeling about him if he told me he was a Nazi. I immediately responded, "I don't think they take Jews, Dad . . . . . "
He pushed on. Dad then asked me how I'd feel about him if he were a member of the KKK. (Ignoring the fact that both Nazis and KKK don't take Jews . . . . )
I said, "Three things. One, you'll always be my father. Two, I'll always be your daughter. (Big sigh . . . . ) And three, don't come looking for me to help you burn a cross . . . . "
Dad left me alone for the rest of the night after that exchange.
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)We can not become a racist state and if we keep cutting taxes to the people with most of the wealth, the total collapse of our economy and financial system will not be far behind. redumbliCONS have historically and repeatedly brought US to the brink!
MichMan
(11,938 posts)CurtEastPoint
(18,650 posts)kentuck
(111,103 posts)...for supporting Trump.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Imagine how effective we'd be if we were committed enough to our issues and priorities to put aside petty nitpicking and vote for candidates we knew would protect them.
For example, this would be a different world right now if progressives were even half as willing to support the candidate who would nominate federal judges who would uphold civil rights, worker rights, reproductive rights. etc., even if she wasn't perfect, didn't give them the warm fuzzies or they thought she was a "corporatist" (whatever that means) as Republicans were to go to the mat for a hateful, bigoted fascist "because the Supreme Court."
kentuck
(111,103 posts)we tend to tie ourselves in knots looking for political advantage. I think this is a time we should stand on principles. Just my opinion.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)the question becomes what are those principles and what those principles actually mean. Adhering to some abstract principles while real people suffer and refusing to take steps that can help them because it requires one to do something that does not exactly and perfectly mirror those principles in their most pristine form.in my view, is the height of unprincipled behavior. In fact, it has little to do with principle but is much more closely attached to privilege and dogmatism.
I can only imagine where we'd be if our great leaders of the 20th century Civil Rights struggle were so insistent on making the perfect the enemy of the good.
kentuck
(111,103 posts)...but the long-standing principles of the Democratic Party are not "abstract". They have been tested over a long time of difficult struggles. But, I don't think we have to look for the perfect in pursuit of the good. The politics of Donald Trump and his supporters are starkly different and do not represent justice or the goodness of the American people. We should represent inclusiveness and equality, not privilege and dogmatism. The "principles" of the Democratic Party are well-known and are far from perfect. It's a journey which has not been completed.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)We have certain principles that are very aspirational, along with other principles that are very immediate.
I agree, for example, that inclusiveness and equality are important, critical principles. But does that mean that, unless we can achieve full inclusiveness and full equality in every way, in this moment, we should not select an option that gets us at least part way there?
Do we allow a candidate who will deeply damage people to win because we refuse to vote for a candidate who we think is not as progressive as we want them to be? In my view, refusing to vote for that candidate is not standing on principle. It's allowing an abstract notion of perfection to stand in the way of actual progress.
Many people have a revisionist view of the civil rights struggle, thinking that Dr. King, Thurgood Marshall, and other civil rights leaders refused to compromise when in reality, the struggle was all about compromise in order to make baby steps toward progress.
For example, did you know that the Montgomery Bus Boycott didn't fully desegregate the city buses? It resulted in a compromise version of segregation whereby whites would still sit in the front and blacks would still sit in the back. White riders would continue to fill up the bus from front to back and blacks would fill up from back to front. The change was that blacks would no longer have to give up their seats to white riders. Instead, when the black section filled up, blacks could then sit in the front white section, as long as there were seats available and when the white section filled up, whites could sit in the black section.
Certainly, some purists of today would insist that such a compromise was a sellout of "principles"- that unless full desegregation occurred, the boycott should continue. But the organizers saw this as a major victory and knew that incremental change was more important than waiting out for a revolution. And they were right - just as they expected, it was not long before the buses became completely desegregated.
The idea that anyone believes that "standing on principle" meant not voting for the only candidate who could have stopped Donald Trump and that the pain, suffering and damage that results to people is a price we must pay (or actually, THEY must pay, since the people taking this stand aren't really paying any serious personal price) in order to eventually achieve some principle is absolutely despicable to me.
kentuck
(111,103 posts)..and that we should not desert the goal because it is not "perfect".
We should support that which is going in the right direction. We may not get there today or tomorrow but we know that someday we will get there. But, we also know that we must keep pushing. Power has never been surrendered voluntarily.
However, we have to understand what direction we are headed or we stand on no principles at all.
It is not a perfect world. Our duty is to move forward, not backwards. From history, we should know right direction from wrong direction.
But to quote Dr. King, The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. That is where we should stand.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)kentuck
(111,103 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,357 posts)Party identification doesn't make you do some things but not others.