Sheshe2's post about white people saying white people without saying white people

[cyclonefence]

reminded me of things I continue to struggle with. I wonder if any other white libs/progressive have the same problems I do.

Some years ago, I was inspired by watching a cop show on tv, where the victim of a crime had to describe the perp so an artist could create a drawing of the man they were looking for, to wonder if I could describe a black person in a way that she could be identified by my description--if an artist could make a picture from my description that would be recognizable as the person I was trying to describe.

I thought about some black women I am close to, women I spend time with almost every day and whom I care about, and tried to describe one of them to myself. I know their faces so well--I could easily locate them in a crowd; hell, they appear in my dreams--but I felt like I didn't have the words to tell what their facial features were like. I could say whether their skins were dark or light and give a fair description of their hair (although for some of them, the hair changes every day!), but I could not describe their eyes, noses and mouths the way I could those of the white people I know. Generalizations like "really pretty" or "always looks mad" came easily, but those don't tell anyone else what these women look like.

Do I not see their faces? Do they "all look alike?" Of course they don't, but giving myself this exercise has made me understand the basis of that canard. (I recently read a New Yorker article about Chinese immigrants in Italy who were having trouble assimilating in part because all the Italians looked alike to them.)

Now when I'm with my black friends I make a point of examining their faces, locking into my memory what color Marlo's eyes are and the shape of Brittany's nose. I am ashamed to tell them what I'm doing and why--thank god for the anonymity of DU which liberates me to talk about things I am ashamed of--but I am making progress.

You can easily test yourself by thinking of a prominent black person--a movie star, say--and try to describe her in such a way that someone else would be able to guess who you're talking about.

[mythology]

1. As you noted it's hardly unique

It comes up as a major problem with eye witness testimony.

[unblock]

2. i find it impossible to describe people physically.

i watch a movie for the plot, not the characters, lol.

if i meet someone and they tell me their name, i can only remember their name if i make a very concerted effort to *not pay attention to what they are saying* and remember their name instead. if i remember what they are telling me, then there's pretty much no way i'm remembering their name.

unless what they're telling me happens to be a story *about* their name.


physical appearance? again, unless it's somehow relevant to their story, i'm really clueless. yes, i can remember the very broad characteristics -- male/female, short/tall. not much else. how people can remember things like eye color is beyond me. i can know someone for years and not know their eye color lol.

[wasupaloopa]

3. So tell me. Is there some white defect I have in my makeup that I need to correct if I can't

describe my black friends so a cop can pick them out of a line up?

My point is some people here have taken this to extremes. Maybe you can't describe anyone well enough.

Yes yes yes yes there is insidious racism in this country and yes yes yes yes we white people have a lot of work to do on our selves but I sure as hell won't lose sleep over not being able to ID my black friends for cops.


"thank god for the anonymity of DU which liberates me to talk about things I am ashamed of"

Now I think there is something wrong with having that feeling if it is about not being able to ID black people.

[cyclonefence]

4. This is the defensiveness that so puzzles me

I described a problem I have and wondered if anyone else had the problem. You took it as an attack on you as a white person. My friend, I do not want to attack you. I think it's odd that I could describe a white friend's face in detail, easily, and I cannot (at least until recently) do the same for the face of a black person I know as well as I know the white one.

Like most of the white people here, I pride myself on not being a racist. I am sure you are not a racist.

I am distressed *at my own* inability to see black faces the same way I see white faces--and this is not something I would ever confess in front of real live people--and I suppose I'm looking for comfort in knowing I'm not alone.

It's very hard--for me, at least--to talk face-to-face about racism; I see real value in having this anonymous forum where I can safely talk about racial matters that trouble me. I hope everyone agrees with you that racism is a terrible problem, but I don't know how we can address a problem without talking about it.

[wasupaloopa]

5. Well stop being puzzled because it isn't defensive

It is descriptive.



Not being able to ID black people is not a racist issue

I don’t know how to say it without getting booted but it seems to me there is a guilt anxiety thing some people have going on
And it only is part of their being but they project it onto society

[pwb]

11. To me these posts are divisive. Right out of a Putin's playbook.

Let's not fall for the division tactics.

[treestar]

6. I don't think anyone can describe facial features of anyone well

Except a few writers. You go back to writers from before the photo age, and they will describe facial features, and even so, I don't picture the person that well. I usually benefit from watching a movie of a novel, so the actors can look like the people in my mind reading the book!

[NCTraveler]

7. "and tried to describe one of them to myself"

There is a bit of a flaw in your practice here and it falls outside of any racial bounds.

Sketch artists are not simply artists. They help the subject to remember.

There is nothing unique about not being able to describe the face of anyone you know outside of the basics.

Good sketch artists are pretty brilliant and work with your mind just as much as with paper and pencil.

It's extremely difficult for most of us to describe a face on the spot.

[cwydro]

8. How odd.

I can describe my ex, who is a black woman, to a T.

I could describe my coworkers too.

Maybe you’re just not good at descriptions?

[lunatica]

9. I'm an artist who does portrait drawings.

I love the human face and body. It’s the most expressive of all the forms of life on the planet. Though not aware of doing it we all read the micro expressions of people all the time.

People watching is my favorite thing to do. I can sit quietly happy to watch people all the time. When malls were popular there was no better place to just sit and watch. It was as if I was invisible to them, which gave me all the freedom to watch them without being noticed.

So I know I can describe individual faces accurately and in detail, no matter what race.

But there aren’t many people who find other people as interesting and compelling as I do.

[MrNJ]

10. "cross-race effect" it's called

It's not just you. It's a well known phenomenon.
And it's not racist.

You are better at recognizing the race most common to you.
Does not have to be your own.

So if you are A-A but leave among Caucasians exclusively, you will identify them better than other A-A.
And vise-versa.

[cyclonefence]

12. I appreciate your response

and it's good to know it's not just me.

It's hard for me to explain why this bothers me. I wonder at what point "racial" (the quotes are because I don't believe in race but accept the term just to make conversation easier) differences cease to matter, at what point does the fact that I know these women so well outweigh the generic cross-race effect? It really hurts my heart that I can't describe their features without concentrating on memorizing them, that they don't come to my mind as readily as do the white faces of people I don't know as well.

And there's the unfairness again of the dominant culture overriding everything: The race most common to any non-white minority is the white race.

A (black) friend told me once, "We know everything about you, and you know nothing about us." And it's true.

Thanks for the clarification of what I'm experiencing.

[guruoo]

13. Darker skin reflects less light, making it harder to pick out identifying facial features

This makes it more difficult to correctly describe and/or identify a person you're not already familiar with.

edit: also see post regarding "cross race" effect:
https://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10791442

[cyclonefence]

14. Thank you for posting these

I have been bothered by my inability to use words to describe faces I know well if they are African-American. The point about light reflection is a little iffy for me but the "cross race" effect makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

[guruoo]

15. It's what's in your heart that counts. nt