If mueller finds proof of conspiracy can Pence, sessions etc. be indicted and removed

[cheyanne]

from office. Can Trump stay on as un indicted co-conspirator if congress refuses to impeach?

[gopiscrap]

1. yes

[samnsara]

2. and since theres no agreement on if the prez can be indicted..lets just indict everyone else!

[MineralMan]

3. Complicated questions. In reality, impeachment is the only way

to remove any of them, actually. Could they be indicted and tried? Perhaps, but perhaps not, too. Pence, Sessions and the other department heads are civil officers, and would have to be impeached and convicted by Congress to be removed from office. Conviction of felonies, if that happened, would almost certainly lead to quick impeachments, even with this Congress, but it's uncertain whether they could be brought to trial in the first place.

It's complicated and would end up in the federal courts, ending up at the Supreme Court.

[empedocles]

5. How does your comment square with the [1973] 'OLC' memo?

That only the President avoids criminal prosecution.

[MineralMan]

6. That memo was only a legal opinion.

I guarantee that such a move would end up at the SCOTUS. Opinions are one thing, but all things connected to that level of position would be contested in federal court, and that process would take way longer than anyone thinks.

Giuliani has legal opinions, too. Most of them are wrong. The actual outcomes of any such prosecutions, etc. are unknown, and will remain unknown until they are actually tested in the Supreme Court. Most likely, though, that will not happen.

[Fla Dem]

4. I'm not sure the alternatives are any better. Plus Trump & Pence would have to leave simultaneously

If Trump was to leave office 1st, Pence would then take over. He could then nominate a new VP.

If they were to exit office at the same time, Paul Ryan would be appointed President. Would have to happen before the end of the year though, as Ryan is not running for office.

Order of Succession to the Presidency
Vice President Mike Pence.
Speaker of the House Paul Ryan.
Senate President Pro Tempore Orrin Hatch.
Secretary of State Mike Pompeo
Secretary of the Treasury Steven Mnuchin.
Secretary of Defense James Mattis.
Attorney General Jeff Sessions.
Secretary of the Interior Ryan Zinke.

[Princess Turandot]

7. re: Sessions: There are examples of federal officials who were criminally indicted while in office..

without being subjected to congressional impeachment before hand. Some have even been in the news recently.

Robert Menendez, US senator from NJ, was indicted on federal charges in 2015 and brought to trial in 2017. The charges were ultimately dropped after a hung jury. Menendez did not resign from office whilst any of this was going on.

Michael Grimm, a US Rep from Staten Island NY, was indicted on numerous federal charges in 2014. Eight months later, he pleaded guilty and was sentenced to prison. He then resigned, effective at the last day of his then-term. (He is running for reelection this year.)

Also, Corinne Brown, a US Rep from Florida, was indicted on federal charges in 2016. I believe that she resigned shortly thereafter. (In December 2017, she was tried/found guilty and was sentenced to prison.)

One thing to note, however. None of these individuals attempted to argue that they could not be indicted/tried whilst still holding federal office. Nixon's VP Spiro Agnew had initially mounted such an argument (before he was indicted), but then dropped it before it went to court.) So, Sessions or whoever could decide to litigate the point, insisting that he first be tried, impeached and convicted in Congress before anything else happened.

Normally, you would expect someone not to draw out the inevitable in a situation like this, since they would still be subject to the legal process after they leave office, but with this bunch, who knows.

[cheyanne]

8. so, no one really has to resign from office, if they don't want to and congress doesn't impeach them

thanks for the info. i'm hoping there is some way to get rid of the cabinet members as well as some congresscritters without waiting for impeachment. sounds like there isn't.