High-Paying Trade Jobs Sit Empty, While High School Grads Line Up For University

[Kilgore]

Seventy-percent of construction companies nationwide are having trouble finding qualified workers, according to the Associated General Contractors of America; in Washington, the proportion is 80 percent.

There are already more trade jobs like carpentry, electrical, plumbing, sheet-metal work and pipe-fitting than Washingtonians to fill them, the state auditor reports. Many pay more than the state's average annual wage of $54,000.

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/25/605092520/high-paying-trade-jobs-sit-empty-while-high-school-grads-line-up-for-university

+++
I live in WA and the worker shortage is real. A local mill has but up billboards advertising for millwright apprenticeship candidates.

[tblue37]

1. K&R for visibility. nt

[Girard442]

2. Until proven otherwise, I always assume all articles about worker shortages are bogus.

A simple thought experiment: wouldn't any company fill those positions instantly if they raised wages by 50%?

[brooklynite]

4. Another simple thought exercise: would a project that cost 50% more still be cost-effective?

This report came from the Washington State Auditor...a Democrat. Did you bother to read it before your knee-jerk reaction kicked in?

[spooky3]

32. If the demand is there, definitely.

If customers want houses built and have the means, they will pay higher prices.

The employer will need to provide more training too.

[TexasBushwhacker]

42. Labor is only part of the cost of an end product n/t

[whathehell]

9. You definitely have a point..

It MAY be a valid point, but I agree on that meme about "doing the jobs Americans don't want to do" My response has always been "Pay them an American wage and they WILL want to do them".

That said, construction pays pretty welk, doesn't it?

[X_Digger]

11. My father retired last year after 45 years as a general contractor. Why? Labor.

It was damned hard to find folks who were: a) not drunk, b) not high, c) punctual, d) not glued to their phones, and e) teachable.

He ended up with him and a bunch of other 50-65 year olds, all with failing backs, knees, and shoulders doing all the work.

wouldn't any company fill those positions instantly if they raised wages by 50%?

If you knew anything about the margins in construction, you'd realize how inane such a comment is.

[dentair152]

37. Skilled Trades

They're not called "skilled trades" for nothing. I'm a 60 year old Master Electrician. It took me many years to get that license and the pay that goes with it. It's very hard to find young people with the drive & ambition to train.

[X_Digger]

47. My dad was a mason, framer, painter, roofer, mudder, master plumber, and master electrician.

If he got a good worker, he'd help them learn whatever trade they had an aptitude for, provide them their first tools, even paying for their tests to get certified.

He started more than one plumber or electrician on their own business over the years.

[Demsrule86]

74. Young people are not getting the money you got these days. I have a friend who went through

the union training program...apprentice and so on...he spends months at a time on layoff...GM is paying skilled trades in some of the their tier 2 plants less than $20.00 and hour.

[bettyellen]

126. Been told that around here they hire mostly undocumented workers.

I doubt they’re being paid a fair wage.

[Demsrule86]

133. The ones around here get paid $8.00 per hour...in GA my house was built by

undocumented workers.

[bettyellen]

134. They ride their bicycles to the work sites w tool boxes in the baskets.

[Demsrule86]

135. They used to hang at Home Depot waiting for a day job too.

[bettyellen]

136. That too. Yeah, they don't appear to be as well paid as crews I'd see 15

to 25 years back. I know some guys who make okay money as pipe fitters, but they complain the work doesn’t pay what it used to. It’s weird but the few better paid union guys I’ve met- all rabid republicans. They got theirs and fuck everyone else. Including their kids, but they haven’t thought it through that far.

[Demsrule86]

137. Greed is not restricted to Wall Street...the construction industry certainly has their bad actors...

and manufacturers are paying people way less than they used to for worker and skilled workers.

[Girard442]

43. Well, try this thought experiment:

I have this incredible product that will revolutionize...well...something. The only obstacle is that to make it work, I need 1 carat gem-grade flawless diamonds that can't cost more than $250.

Clearly, the problem is a terrible shortage of affordable diamonds and it's all society's fault and somebody should do something about that.

Or...maybe a gadget that can't work without cheap diamonds needs to be seriously rethunk somehow.

[X_Digger]

49. Now imagine that the cost for the product is $251.

And some moron comes around trying to sell you $500 diamonds.



Inane.

[Canoe52]

54. General Contractor here, agree with all of the above.

The trades have been maligned so much that anyone with half a brain feels it’s beneath them, what’s left can’t even read a ruler.

When I built my house a few years ago, the average age of my framing crew was 65.

[ehrnst]

17. No, current workers don't magically just become 'skilled' when you raise the wages.

That would be the result of a simple thought experiment.

[mythology]

121. Not tomorrow but in a few years

There would likely be people who left the field due to declining pay, but it would also encourage new people to join the field who would become skilled over time.

[treestar]

20. There are costs to running a business

It can't run in the red. That consideration is always there. You can't just assume wages will go up. They can only go up so far as the business can still make money. It has to at least break even.

[Major Nikon]

34. Another thought experiment...

Would all companies be able to fill their positions instantly if all of them raised wages by 5000%?

[spooky3]

38. Here's an article from a researcher who has examined

A lot of claims like this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2014/09/05/what-employers-really-want-workers-they-dont-have-to-train/?utm_term=.c0c1710e67d9

[Girard442]

39. Fantastic article. Thanks for posting.

[spooky3]

45. You're welcome.

[Major Nikon]

44. The part that's missing is how to get people from the apprenticeship level to the journeyman level

This is the role unions filled after WWII. The wingnuts' union busting also busted those apprenticeship programs and nothing has been done to replace it.

[Raven123]

48. Exactly

Skilled workers don't appear overnight. The needs of employers seems to change faster than the ability to acquire those skills. When skilled workers are laid off, they don't freeze. They age like everyone else. When enough time passes they are out of the workforce, doing other jobs or no longer able fulfill all the requirements of the physically demanding jobs. This is no surprise, except to the employers who expect a ready cache of skilled labor.

[IronLionZion]

53. One way to deal with the cost of on the job training

is for employers to have signed agreements or contracts that employees have to remain with the company for a certain amount of time after the training period is complete, or pay back the money for the training. That's how it is in many white collar continuing education/certification programs.

Loyalty is a big risk and it comes up in interviews. They ask why I left each company and my answers are challenged and I have to defend why.

[NickB79]

70. Your article is 4 yr old

What was the unemployment rate then vs today?

[spooky3]

75. If you're interested, why not do the research yourself?

This may help:

https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/news/hr-magazine/1217/pages/the-skills-gap-is-a-myth.aspx

[Canoe52]

58. Then you'd be paying more for for the same people who

don’t want to work so hard, who have trouble learning how to read a ruler, who has trouble working independently.

Our society has been telling everyone with any intelligence that the trades are beneath them.

I’ve worked in IT and the trades and as a general contractor, I’ve found the same intelligence level amongst the workers in all three.

[NickB79]

69. My facility has a hell of a time finding qualified workers

$25/hr, Teamsters union benefits, paid vacations, 401K, good health insurance. All you need is a high school diploma. It's not even heavy labor; it's a dairy plant that makes yogurt, sour cream and cottage cheese. You have to be ok with getting wet now and then, sometimes it's hot and humid, you need to pay attention to detail (a bad cleanup could endanger customer's lives with salmonella or listeria) and you need a good memory while mixing ingredients, but it's not THAT awful. With all the OT available, some guys clear $100K a year.

We go through 7-8 guys for every one that stays a year or more. So many are too physically unfit to stay on their feet 8 hours, can't listen to simple instructions or not blow up at a supervisor, not come to work drunk or high, not play on their phones when they should be running, or just have the work ethic to show up on time. We had one guy walked out the door by police because he threatened to shoot a coworker! It's insane how difficult the last few years have been as we've expanded production and needed new employees.

[AJT]

78. I wonder how much of the problems are associated with low unemployment.

The people left to take these jobs are probably not top notch. The good employees are already taken.

[NickB79]

115. Agreed. The opoid and meth crises are playing havoc as well

A lot of the guys we get (and it's 99% guys, very few women) are middle-aged, already have chronic health problems, and substance abuse problems (because hey, in a small town like ours with nothing else to do, it's perfectly normal to drink your paychecks away at the local bar every night and take a hit of meth now and then!).

[Moostache]

82. I have been teaching my kids for years a simple equation for success in life...

You beat the first 50% of everyone in the job market simply by showing up every day reliably and on-time.
You beat the next 40% of everyone else simply by caring about your performance and doing your job.

That last 10% are a dogfight and you have to be willing to fight them everyday to get ahead of them because those are the ones getting the best jobs, the best contracts, the best businesses and the best lives.

The problem is that beating 90% of the 2018 job market does not get you the lifestyle or purchasing power of beating less than 50% of the 1970 job market did. Compensation has decoupled from productivity for decades, which coupled with inflation over that same period (especially in the costs of food, healthcare, housing and gas), has caused an erosion of purchasing power and lifestyle attainment for the former middle-class. You simply cannot do the things my parents did for me and my brother and sister in the 70's and 80's on a single income household. Costs that rise 15-20% ANNUALLY like college tuition, food, health insurance premiums, etc. rob nearly everyone of feeling that they are getting ahead and that becomes a major anvil on general well-being.

My father made less than I do in gross dollars, a lot less...but he and my mother were able to provide a home, food, healthcare and annual vacations as a family to many different places that my wife and I - with TWO incomes and decent wages to boot cannot afford. And I realize that my situation is nowhere close to as dire as many less fortunate people in this economy. In a "full employment" economy, wages should be rising well above inflation and Cost of Living...it is not happening and that is also a factor in the overall health of the economy in general.

[angel823]

86. spot

fuckin' on.

Angel in Texasperated

[waddirum]

90. I agree with everything you wrote

I compare the minimum wage and annual University tuition at my state's flagship school between 1987 (when I was a freshman) and today:

1987-1988: $3.35 minimum wage; $1,470 in-state tuition; $3,386 dorm room & board
2017-2018: $7.25 minimum wage; $15,868 in-state tuition; $11,308 dorm room & board

I never had to take a student loan. I worked a minimum wage job bussing tables and dishwashing at Ihop my Freshman year.

[Moostache]

100. I think you're numbers make the case better than I did...thank you!

For things to be roughly equivalent to the late-80's (when in truth, Reaganomics were just starting to really show their impacts), we would need this:

2017-2018: $7.25 minimum wage; $3,181 in-state tuition; $7,328 dorm room & board
The in-state gap is especially galling...5X higher cost than rise in wages...unacceptable!

Clearly we are on the wrong path when the people paying the biggest price are our children and grandchildren...

[waddirum]

101. Thanks

Back then, I remember being astonished that my European compatriots were attending University for free, and in many cases being paid a stipend for living expenses. I thought that we were barbarians in the U.S. for requiring students to fork out a couple thousand bucks.

[NickB79]

116. +1000. nt

[brewens]

76. The companies I suppose could raise wages in some cases. The construction I worked was usually

prevailing wage. I only ever drove trucks, dump trucks and hydroseeded on highway jobs. You'd think $30 and hour minimum would get any burger flippers attention. I would consider about any kid that worked for shit wages and made supervisor at a fast food place to be a good prospect too. They always seemed to work out for me. One kid that was just my warehouse assbuster and worked for Burger King is now Post Master in my town of 30,000.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

113. No, those articles are not bogus.

Some thirty plus years ago a man I knew who owned a machine shop of some kind in Phoenix was having trouble keeping good workers. I expect he paid a competitive wage, but his essential problem was that there simply weren't very many people out there with the skills he needed.

He wound up selling his shop and rehabbed homes for a few years. Now he runs some kind of non emergency medical transport service. Oh, and his wife has been a full partner in the last two careers. In the machine shop days she was a full time mom.

[genxlib]

3. This is a real issue

We have done ourselves and our youth a disservice by downplaying the role of vocational education and the trades. We have created an environment where anything short of a college degree is considered a failure.

It is unfortunate because many people would be happier and more successful in the trades. It isn't a matter of intelligence that divides the two paths. Many very smart people would be happiest working with their hands and would find career paths for advancement within those trades.

I say this as a college educated engineer. But I see opportunities all over the place for people of various aptitudes.

[whathehell]

10. A lot depends on Unionization..

A union job can pay VERY well, but the Right Wing vehemently opposed unions, and, the Dems have not done a good job defending them, imo. .

[Johnny2X2X]

16. This

The trades here in West Michigan have been devastated by Union busting. The Builders association here was a place for builders to collude on how to change the regulations regarding the skilled trades. Instead of tradesmen, you have several "apprentices" doing the work for $13 an hour while 1 actual journeyman is moving from site to site.

The Cons have made sure that the days of learning a trade and going to work for a company that will provide you a secure living are gone. Independent contractors make good livings, but they forgo benefits.

[Major Nikon]

35. Many trade unions have robust apprenticeship programs that fill worker pipelines

So when the wingnuts destroy unions, they also destroy those pipelines which ultimately negatively affects their paymasters.

[angel823]

88. again, spot

fuckin' on.

Angel in Texasperated

[whathehell]

140. -------

[treestar]

21. It is amazing what people will do for "status"

and unfortunately we have for decades made high status of the jobs that require education.

[Paladin]

5. The right-wingers are really flogging this one.

Just another opportunity for conservatives to trash those uppity, snotty, left-wing college kids---while siding with the salt-of-the-earth, trump-voting, working folks.....

[IronLionZion]

15. I'm all in favor of right wing kids going into the skilled trades

and liberal kids going to college to become soft snowflakes or whatever they think happens in college.

RWers want more salt of the earth people doing "real work", then the should stop going to business school and law school and get apprenticeships and go to trade schools instead.

It's a win win because many conservatives don't want to study and are against education in general.

[Paladin]

51. My sentiments exactly, ILZ. (nt)

[DBoon]

128. Som of us consider MBA and Law programs to be glorified trade schools

Expensive, prestigious trade schools whose graduates get to wear suits to work

[IronLionZion]

130. Yet, we have lots of Republicans in those fields

they should be learning plumbing, electrical, welding, etc. like they keep telling us. Or go to Trump university and learn how to be a winner.

[BlueTsunami2018]

6. I'm a union tradesman.

Most of my friends went to college and aren’t working in the fields they studied, some of them are still paying off the student loans from twenty years ago. My union paid me to go apprentice school and we make twice or more than that average wage.

Unless you’re going to school to become an investment banker or other legal thief you’re most likely going to be in debt up to your ears and working a shitty office job somewhere if you’re average Joe.

Listen kids, join a union, learn a trade, live better.

That’s my advice.

[SWBTATTReg]

12. Pretty good advice...

I went to school to get bach. degrees in auditing (tax), accounting, micro-economics, macro-economics and a fifth degree (not even a degree back then, just a 'data certificate', which was data processing (in 1975)).

I went for the more 'fun' job, after my dad told me a story when I asked him about which job to take, either take one that you would count 20,000 dozen eggs a week for the rest of your life, or the data processing. In hindsight, the data processing relied a lot on the other degrees I had, for when I did systems development, my accounting and auditing background helped quite a bit in communicating w/ the clients (who were usually non-computer savvy)...

I was lucky and got in on pretty well the ground floor of IT before it mutated into hundreds of different beasts, so one degree back then was for everything whereas today, a degree can be very specific. Schools back then were begging for data processing students. The director of my School's IT dept then actually convinced me to join and I did, and I'm glad I did. Instead of counting 20,000 dozen eggs as my father said to me when he was imparting advice to me as to what job field to go into, I got into the ground floor of many different technologies being integrated w/ the data processing world and saw far more of the world and how it works vs. counting 20,000 dozen eggs. My father is gone, RIP, but his advice has stayed w/ me forever.

However, I didn't have the god awful college bills I've been seeing on the news. Man, my heart goes out to these kids.

Unfortunately, I think that the fun and challenge is mostly gone from IT. It's been 'incorporated' and migrated into the mainstream of business enterprise, where the IT guys are now actually running the entire corporation. Not the accounting guy, not the economics guy, etc.

This union guy/gal knows what's he/she is talking about. As the 'aura' disappears from IT, it is appearing over this trade school jobs because they are not 'glamorous'...they may not be, but I guarantee you will be able to pay more bills, save more money, live a decent life...at least give it a shot...if it doesn't work out, do something else, at least while you're still young at heart.

My nephew (I got two of them, totally opposite of each other, one is an IT freak/nut, pretty good at it, makes good money, and the other is in diesel engine repairs), and is doing good too.

[Girard442]

46. People think an old fart like me has totally forgotten how cheap (and good) college was for me.

But I haven't forgotten and I'm still grateful and my heart goes out to today's kids who are being bulldozed by the cost of an education.

[exboyfil]

31. Nurses and engineers do well

Both my daughters are making more than the family medium income in our state at 20 and 22.

[genxlib]

60. Agreed

And there is a formula for that.

Engineering degree = Engineer, Nursing degree = nurse. Some degrees are directly tied to a career.

It is tougher for more general fields of study and liberal arts where there is not a direct link to a career.

I am not advocating for the destruction of liberal arts education in favor of what amounts to advanced vocational training. However, there are advantages to following a path of study that has a defined career associated with it.

Engineering has one additional advantage (full disclosure I am an Engineer). Engineering is a professional field that requires government licensure similar to Doctors, Lawyers, CPAs etc. However, the qualifications for Engineering require an apprenticeship rather than advanced degrees. In essence , you get paid while you complete your education within a real work environment. Four year degree plus four year internship qualifies you to apply to be a Professional Engineer There are some variations on that timeline but it can be a huge advantage.

[SoCalNative]

57. yes but even those shitty office jobs

require a 4-year college degree these days, just to apply.

[NickB79]

71. That's what my wife and I are contemplating telling our daughter

And both of us are college grads.

A 4-yr degree when she goes to college in 10 years will be in the hundreds of thousands at the rate we're going.

[BlueTsunami2018]

118. Trade unions are taking in women like never before.

If you apply, you’re practically guaranteed to get in. Construction is rough and you need a thick skin but I know plenty of women who are really good in all the trades. It’s a solid career choice.

[angel823]

89. ha, another spot

fuckin' on post.

Angel in Texasperated

[crazycatlady]

7. I'm seeing a slight shift

I have two cousins who are about to graduate (HS). Both of them are not choosing the typical 4 year college route. One's going to CC for nursing and the other's going to CC for cosmetology (she's done 2 years through a HS program but has one more to go).

I dated a guy in construction for awhile and he went into it right out of high school. Made good money and didn't have to worry about student loan debt like so many others his age (26-27 when we dated).

[alarimer]

8. No, they can't find workers for the wages they are willing to pay them.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that the majority are not good jobs with relatively high wages and BENEFITS. Trade jobs, unless they are union jobs, do not come with health insurance and paid time off. So would you want to work a job with shit wages that offered no benefits instead of going to college to earn a degree that at least has the possibility of a good job at the end? Not if you have half a brain, you're not.

All of these hand-wringing articles miss that point by a country mile. People are not going to college because they are afraid of hard work; they are avoiding these jobs BECAUSE THEY ARE SHIT JOBS. Low pay, no benefits, back-breaking labor that ruins your health. No just no, but HELL NO.

[JayhawkSD]

26. Try again.

"If I had to guess, I'd guess that..."

Read the article. The original post even cites it. "Many pay more than the state's average annual wage of $54,000."

[spooky3]

36. But what about benefits?

[appalachiablue]

80. Yes, what about benefits and longterm security in those jobs? Like

many people in careers and jobs across the spectrum, WV teachers went on strike over drastic increases in HEALTH CARE COSTS that's eating them alive, as well as appalling low pay for years like other poorer states.

A teacher sister in NoVa hasn't seen a raise in 10 years. Everything costs, by the minute here lately.

[alarimer]

124. Pay is not the only issue.

My point was only that there are other possible reasons people prefer college to learning a trade.

Who wants a job that, after a lifetime of doing it, leaves your body broken, assuming they even reach retirement age without either a catastrophic injury or work-related illness? And I have read enough horror stories about industrial employers completely ignoring OSHA rules (which are not anywhere near strong enough in any case) to know that this is not a life I would advise anyone to pursue.

Sure, I suppose, self employment in the trades (plumbing, for instance) is probably satisfying in many ways especially because you don't have to work for anyone else. But there are definite risks to it, especially since you are also responsible for your own health insurance and there is no paid time off.

I also think college is important for other reasons. It's intellectually stimulating. Something most jobs are not, that's for sure. Exposure to the wider world is vital for everyone.

[JayhawkSD]

125. Working in an industrial setting is not "intellectually stimulating"?

Try installing a line of machinery that requires:
a) placing four pieces of machinery, each weighing 50,000 pounds to 70,000 pounds
b) physically locating them within a few thousandths of an inch with respect to each other
c) placing 15 or so smaller machines ancillary to the main equipment
d) making over 1000 electrical connections with 100% accuracy
e) routing 2000 ft of 2" steel pipe for 250psi compressed air with 200+ connections to machines
f) routing 1500 ft of 3" sch 80 steel pipe for 3000psi hydraulics with 100+ connections to machines

High school education, US Navy training and a real dumb ass, right?

[Lurker Deluxe]

84. well ....

I would tend to disagree with that.

I am 50, been in the trades all my life. I am worth what I get paid because of experience, job history, and aptitude.
I began my varied career when I was 17, my father was a super with a industrial construction company so I obviously went to work with him. Advantage - mine, not everyone has that opportunity. My father was a brutal boss, I made it just over a year.

$7.50 - 10/hr, vacation/holiday pay, health insurance - 18yo

After that I went to work in a service facility that the company I worked for had just finished building their shop. Advantage - mine, not everyone got that opportunity. I learned so much there it was insane, I was always the guy who worked the extra hours ... sometimes for free, to learn as much as I could. I worked there just over three years.

$9.50 - 13/hr, vacation/holiday pay, health insurance - 22yo

By then I had learned the basics of electrical wiring, welding, carpentry, and could operate most industrial equipment such as forklifts, backhoes, front end loaders. I could follow procedures for fitting and welding, understood the major differences between metals, and could repair most things with documentation. I could fix almost any kind of construction related machines

I moved from there to a manufacturing facility where I started as a welder and five years later was a machinist. I could now build almost anything as long as I had a print.

$12 - 17/hr, vacation/holiday pay, health insurance, credit union savings plan with match - 27yo

From there I moved into field service, drove a company truck with a little crane on the side of it, and traveled all over Texas fixing machinery built by Cat. I kept that job for 9 years.

$15 - 23/hr, vacation/holiday pay, health insurance - 36yo

I moved from that company but remained in the same trade, field service. Now I traveled all over the world fixing large diesel engines as an "In-Situ Machinist". I kept that job for 12 years and was laid off in 2015 when the company decided to shut the Houston facility down.

$22 - 37.5/hr, vacation/holiday pay, health insurance, 401K

When I was laid off in 2015, December 11th to be precise, I decided to take a year off. When I decided to reenter the work place I landed the 3rd job I applied for, as a maintenance man for a large franchise. I have been there now for 16 months. I intend for this to be my last job and told them of my plan to retire at 60.

$25 - 32.50/hr, vacation/holiday pay, health insurance, 401K

49 - about to be 51yo

I have worked all these years and have never been in a union, and have never been without health insurance and vacation pay. I was always looking for the next opportunity but never jumped ship for more money, it was always for more opportunity. I have a few friends who went the opposite direction out of high school who are certainly no where near as healthy as I am - really lucky for me - but I do believe that physically working everyday certainly contributes to that.

I have had offers to move into supervisor/management roles in every job since I was 27 and always refused, sometimes with the joke, "can't afford the pay cut". Staying away from that kind of stress has left me with a full head of hair ... even if it is grey. Already the company I work for is pushing me to "move into the office" but I cannot fathom it, I could never sit inside all day, in a chair, staring at a screen ... I would go stir crazy.

Am I the variation that proves the rule? Perhaps, but some of the men/women I have worked with over the years have remained friends. Most of these people are like me, they have good jobs and are in pretty good shape/health. Lucky? Yes, but there are other contributing factors ... I believe hard work being one of them.

Just a kind of humorous note, I really do stop at the bar every single day and have a beer after work. Some of the people in the bars around me who have known me for 6/7/8 years have been pot smokers. Last year when I stepped outside to burn one with them they all were surprised.

The jobs I have had for the past 20 years drug tested ... this one doesn't. I never failed a drug test in all of those years, while I watched countless people lose their jobs for that.

There are kick ass jobs out there for people who are willing to learn and grow, just like any career you must apply yourself to your work if you intend to get paid.

[angel823]

91. interesting

Sounds like your "Advantage mine" events would be the kinds of things union membership could provide for those who don't have the family connections.

Angel in Texasperated

[Lurker Deluxe]

93. perhaps

Vocational training in high school could also provide that "advantage".

[Kaleva]

96. I was non-union and had health care, paid vacation and a retirement plan

Was hired before I finished a two training program as a HVAC/R technician. Made enough to own two homes. Yes, the work was sometimes very physically demanding and it's not for everyone. Especially those who loathe hard work. I did it till the body gave out. Which had more to do with a surgery I had in the Navy then with the work I was doing. So I've been essentially retired since I was 50. I still have two homes, paid for in full, and get by fine on SSDI as I have little debt and I manage my expenses.

[Adrahil]

13. Skilled trades are essential. So is a union.

I'm a college-educated engineer. It's been transformational for me (came form a working-class family, and now I'm upper-middle class), but it's not for everyone and maybe even more importantly, college is not just a vocational school that lets you put letters behind your name.

Skilled trades are essential! And it's not always easy to find truly skilled tradesmen. It took me YEARS to find plumbers and electricians I trust. And I treasure them now! And I am delighted (well, maybe not DELIGHTED, but ya know) to pay them what they are worth.

And we certainly need some skilled industrial workers too. My company has a terrible time hiring skilled machinists who can consistently come to work neither high/drunk nor hung over.

[ret5hd]

97. What do they nickname a machinist that comes in drunk?

Stubby

[Adrahil]

98. Exactly. And that, we do NOT need. NT

[ret5hd]

103. Worked as a machinist for over 35 yrs.

I saw someone come in drunk maybe 3 times. It just doesn’t happen that often.

[Adrahil]

106. We've had a terrible time.

We have a couple guys who are just rock solid and skilled as all get out.

But we can't find a thirds guy for anything. And we are offering very good pay and benefits.

Five in a row have failed probationary drug tests. One came in smelling of alcohol and clearly impaired. Another came in hung over every Monday.

We just hired another guy. Seems like he might be okay... here's hoping.

[cab67]

14. There's a lot of pressure these days for middle-class kids to go straight to college.

It's almost assumed in some places - you finish high school and go straight to college.

I teach at a university. Some of the students I encounter should not be there. It's not (necessarily) a matter of innate intelligence or ability, either. Some just aren't ready for it - they haven't yet developed the self-discipline and work ethic needed to do well in a college setting. Others have interests and aptitudes that could better be directed in the military or a trade. But because their friends are all going to college, and because Mom and/or Dad want them to go to college, they go to college.

[Adrahil]

108. There is a certain class expectation.

I am upper-middle class. Pretty much all my social peers have a degree (and most have an advanced degree of some flavor). And ALL the kids of my friends have gone, are going, or are headed to college. Including my kid. I admit that if a kid didn't go to college they'd likely be seen as not holding up their end by a lot of folks.

I guess it's a class thing.

I'll tell you this, though.... life for an officer (degree required) in the military is rather better than for enlisted of a similar seniority, not even considering pay.

[ehrnst]

18. My spouse is a skilled carpenter.

Spouse doesn't work in construction, but in scenery for film and television.

Spouse says that many of the trades are hostile environments for women, and the culture tends towards chauvinistic.

Spouse says that he would not like to work on construction sites because of that culture - and that is from experience working during Summers in college (technical theatre degree.)

The culture may need to change in order for more women, or even gay men to feel comfortable in a career in the trades.

[spooky3]

77. Those are good points. Employers are missing out on

A huge portion of the labor market if they fail to address them.

[procon]

19. If we still had robust trade unions, their skilled apprenticeship programs would

solve that problem.

The GOPs relentless attacks on unions was successful in lowering wages, benefits and pensions across the county. For all their fine speechifying, why would they want American workers to fill those skilled trade jobs when then can import cheap foreign workers or just send the work overseas.

[ehrnst]

22. The culture in trades currently is still one of a boy's club

I hope that encouraging more women to go into trades - with scholarships and other incentives - will help to change that, but it must be addressed.

Until then, even my carpenter spouse doesn't want to work construction projects.

See my post above for more details.

The WPA projects in the FDR era sidestepped the whole issue of women and POC not fitting in by simply excluding them. That helped to create a macho, white trades culture.

We can't do that now. Women, LGBTQs and POC must be included, and harassment must be addressed.

[procon]

27. The patriarchal culture predominates in many fields, not just the trades.

We won't be able to change one single field until we can change everything across the board to make equality for everyone the law of the land.

Look at IT tech, its rife with misogynists. The medical industry is very hard on women, from nurses, techs and physicians, it's still a man's domain. Law and politics are predominated by men. Religion plays a significant role by indoctrinating children in their traditional gender based roles in life. Entertainment venues also glorify the he-man super hero in blockbuster films, video games, novels, and music, while even successful women are locked in 2nd place. Also the military and police agencies, even first responders, promote the images of manly heros and warrior men armed to the teeth, but women are relegated to supporting roles.

Where does it start and what keeps this male dominated culture going? For every baby step forward that women take, the entrenched patriarchal culture slaps us back to the subservient gender role they have assigned to all women.

[ehrnst]

40. Yes, I have been a part of the tech world, and they are being forced to deal with the culture.

Trades are another that need to be.

I think that it takes women with a hide of steel (like Hillary) to make the inroads - and many will be beaten down.

We have to provide incentives to make that initial breaking in period worth it to the pioneers.

[appalachiablue]

81. Word- banking, finance, medicine, law, military, politics, media/

entertainment and tech, even in the so very progressive coastal West. It's not only in the trades and due to FDR (?) Recent sex scandals outed only some of many that typify toxic male culture that's dominant in too many US industries. Got to change.

Unions, collective bargaining, pensions and mainstay worker rights and protections have been butchered here since Reagan, unions down to about 7% of the workforce now. We're increasingly a Right to Work, aka Right to Scrounge Nation in too many states. Mostly what's left are public, guvmint workers including teachers and US Postal workers under attack. It's difficult if not impossible to have a Middle Class without unionization- Democracy in the Workplace. Hence, the decline of the once largest US Middle Class.

Thatcher in Britain also got in on it and it's disturbing now to see Macron in France trying to break pensions and unions.
Domestic workers have become too expensive in the US when there are cheaper foreign alternatives as you say. The way it is and unlikely to change.

[ehrnst]

122. Not "due to FDR" but will not be solved in the same way.

Is that clearer?

[Luciferous]

23. My husband went to trade school and worked his way up from a machinist to

a management position. His brother got his Master's in education, and only makes about half of what my husband makes. I'm still paying off student loans for a degree I never used, while my husband had no debt and is constantly contacted by recruiters about job openings. Pay isn't always the issue. He had people working for him that make like $25 an hour and we live in an area with a low cost of living. The issue is finding people with the skill set and the willingness to learn. He says he is always willing to teach someone how to do a job but a lot of people don't want to put in the effort.

[Johnyawl]

24. I'm in construction in Washinhgton State...

...I'm a construction inspector, and am currently inspecting at two high rise construction sites. These are all-union jobs, the pay and benefits are great, retirement at 30 years. They're currently working 20-30 hours a week overtime to stay on schedule, because they can't find enough tradesmen. On a positive note I've seen more minorities and women amongst the tradesman than at anytime of my career. For the first time in 15 years of doing this job I now have to work on Saturdays to keep up. I have an acquaintance that's a non-union carpenter and he's been approached by 3 different recruiters just this year. He has his choice of where he works, and is making union level wages (minus the benefits). The non-union contractors now have "HELP WANTED" painted on their trucks. We have a serious labor shortage at the moment. And that idiot squatting in our White House has made things worse. To join a union one must be documented, but a significant percentage of the non-union construction labor was undocumented. They're gone now.

[True Blue American]

33. Union and Company

Apprentice ships were deleted.

Bad mistake. Plus killing Unions with terror tactics,” We will just move to Mexico!” Started with Reagan. You know that great Union Leader who decided the Democrats left him and we do not need blanking Unions any more.

Same mentality as Ryan. He and his Mother lived on Social Security. Now wants to kill it.

[inwiththenew]

25. I think it's a combination of two things

1. Attack on labor
2. The idea that everyone should go to college or you have failed

Now the trades aren't for everyone but neither is college. I remember being in high school in the 90s and there was definitely a stigma that if you weren't going to college than you had failed. People can make a respectable living, often time better than someone with a college degree that can't find employment, with a skilled trade.

[crazycatlady]

30. I was also in HS in the late 90s

And the expectations both of my parents and the school was that not going to college was not an option. Those who went to community college were looked down upon)

(I think only 3-4 of my class of 96 people didn't go to college).

[True Blue American]

28. We have

A German Auto parts plant with huge trucks on I 75, Hiring Immediately!
Know why? They continue to pay workers on the floor less than $13 an hour, working them 12/7.

Few new stay.

They need to understand the Recession is long gone. German owners call the US, Our Mexico. Destroyed the Union, cut benefits. Now whining they can not get workers.

Our smart, young generation have decided they are not slaves any more.

[Texin]

29. The trade jobs (many of which) are skilled positions, became stigmatized in the culture

beginning in the '80s. Most high school curricula had several vocational education programs at that time, but the Reagan era schools began to phase those out. I haven't thought about this much in depth, but it's as if the rethugs decided to do away with such programs to fund state and local property tax cuts. The more insidious reasoning behind them, I suspect, is because many of those jobs actually allowed an individual with the training to make a wage on par with the white, middle-class, 'manager'-class desk jockeys - the paper pushers, mid-level accountants, etc. For the most part, back in the '70s and early '80s, tuitions were relatively affordable at state colleges and universities. My father was an assemblyman at General Motors. He was able to pay for his three children's college tuition and books on a wage then of a little more than $34k annually.

The rethug motherfuckers don't want to see anyone that actually has to work for a living to pay for their families succeed. They need (and want) to keep people stupid, skill-less and dependent. The more they've gutted school funding, the more dumbed down the kids are and they emerge from school, for the most part, unable to perform academically in such a way that they can matriculate successfully at the college level - even if they and their parents could afford to send them there! So, they work in dead end jobs at minimum wage and the so-called "donor class" likes it that way. They want folks to beg for menial jobs and they'd just as soon not pay them anything at all. Before long, we are all going to be in servitude to them.

[Wounded Bear]

41. People don't value work any more...

Look at the "president" (I hate saying that, but... ). People value people who get rich, and as the old song goes, you won't get rich by digging a ditch. Cheating is allowed, as are many shifty, underhanded ways of getting there, but the fact is that people who get rich are admired regardless of how.

Physical labor is looked down upon. In many ways, that has always been true, but we are approaching medieval levels of treating workers like serfs. Particularly with Repubs, who don't equate being "middle class" with doing physical labor in any way. They actually resent the idea that a laborer might make more than or the same amount of money a businessman.

[appalachiablue]

123. Yep, awe, respect, worshship of rich grifters; scorn, indifference to physical workers

[tenderfoot]

50. Labor WMDs

eom

[Greybnk48]

52. I have a friend in his 30's who's a genius with cars.

He started with one of the best places in our town years ago, just as they were putting computerized parts in care engines. He knows all about them and where they are and can fix anything. He does a lot of training nowadays, but still has to do mechanic work routinely.

He's already worried about the toll this hard work has taken on his body and how he's going to be able to do this physical labor until he's 70 if the Republicans have their way.

[genxlib]

62. This touches on a major issue that is under reported

People that advocate for pushing back the retirement age obviously have desk jobs.

It is hard to imagine how blue collar workers will still be able to continue working a physically demanding job at that age. It is even worse for minimally skilled workers.

[Greybnk48]

87. Everyone can't be a foreman, so we have old men that will

be forced to do backbreaking work at 70. And women too! Imagine having to clean hotel rooms at 70!

[mcar]

55. My son is completing his associate's degree this week

but doesn't plan to continue his education, at least for a few years. He's wicked smart but not academically inclined.

I've been talking to him about a trade - a much better option than working minimum wage jobs, even if he does decide to go back for a bachelor's degree later.

[Canoe52]

61. I remember the time when the trades had many very smart people working in them.

Tell him to check into being an electrician or HVAC repair.

[mcar]

65. I've suggested electrician

but here in FL, HVAC repair might be a great option. I've also talked to him about a cybersecurity certification. He's very tech savvy, as most kids of his generation are.

[Adrahil]

109. Have him consider learning to be a CNC operator.

It's a skill in demand and he can get a job almost anywhere. Good pay, and interesting, varied work.

[mcar]

110. What is that?

[Adrahil]

112. Computer Numerical Control

Basically, computer controlled milling machines. A machinist, but with the skill of programming the machines, rather than manually machining.

Programming them well is a definite skill and in high demand.

[mcar]

117. Thanks!

[waddirum]

107. or Building Automation

or alarms/security/locksmith.

[DBoon]

129. I recall EP Thompsons The Making of the English Working Class

Long time since I read it, but according to my recollection the 18th century tradesman was a respected educated member of the middle class.

The industrial revolution changed that, removing the skills and autonomy that old trades had, and seriously depressing wages

No reason why we can't try to bring that back

A liberal arts background is not inconsistent with working in a trade.

[NCTraveler]

56. Using WA as an example...

I think it’s just over 25% of high school grads who go to college. Close to 75% of grads do not.

[lunasun]

105. That is low +iin the 2014 link +61% in Illinois go directly to college I would guess 2018 is higher

for Illinois

http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/?year=2014&level=nation&mode=data&state=0&submeasure=63

[honest.abe]

59. Many prefer to work in an office even if the salary is less than a trade job.

Not sure what the solution is but clearly society has labeled trade jobs as dirty and low class.

[meadowlander]

67. It's not about being "dirty and low class"

it's about being physically demanding and punishing with a high risk of injury and (in some cases) death and being at greater risk of being replaced by machines in the short to long term and having to retrain anyway.

I worked in factories and on farms in summers to pay for college. I loved the work but could see how I wouldn't be able to physically sustain it for a 40-50 year working life. And I didn't want to be in the situation of being ten years shy of retirement, no longer physically able to do my job and too old to be worth retraining for another one.

That's why the trade jobs pay so well. Like pro sports careers, they have to pay a lot because you're not going to be able to do them until the day you turn 60 or 65 and you need the extra money to get you through the gap years.

[honest.abe]

72. Im sure that's part of the issue as well.

But there no question there is a stigma associated with trade jobs.

[hunter]

63. It's often a hostile environment for women, minorities, immigrants and unions.

The guys in charge are completely blind to it. When they can't find or keep workers it's never their own fault.

Guy I worked for:

"Oh, I've hired women, but it didn't work out..."



It's because your crew leader and drinking buddy since high school is a misogynistic pig, asshole.

I don't see how a college education prevents people from working in the trades. An English major can swing a hammer, string PEX, or diagnose a "check engine" light as well as anyone.

[AwakeAtLast]

64. +1000! n/t

[meadowlander]

66. Most of those jobs will be obsolete in 15-20 years especially in the construction industry.

We'll be 3D printing most buildings in 10 years.

If I was 18, I'd be getting my ass to college to study engineering, design or computer programming. Let the oldies enjoy rising wages and demand during the twilight of their industries.

[Lurker Deluxe]

68. No way

There is no way, "We'll be 3D printing most buildings in 10 years", it is not even remotely possible. We may be 3D printing some small single story type things. But they will still require plumbing, electrical, and HVAC ... no way around it.

3D printing is amazing new tech, but it will never be able to compete with tilt wall construction for speed and costs, why would you attempt to stack concrete when you can pour it on the ground and stand it up ...

The amount of trades involved in building anything more than 6 stories is amazing. That will never be automated. NEVER.

Tech will always advance, trades must always be there to build the backbone and maintain it. A 3D printer big enough to build a 5000 square foot house will require tradesmen before it does one single thing.

Who moves it?

Who sets it up?

Who connects it to power?

Who built it?

Who fixes it?

And once the 3D shell is done ...

Who puts in the windows?

Installs the appliances?

Puts down the hardwood floors and tiles the bath?

Paints the walls?

Tradesmen/women.

No way around it.

[meadowlander]

85. Not saying they will disappear overnight

But demand is only going down across the construction industry. Most construction work is residential dwellings and most residential dwellings will be prefab and printed including with services built in in situ. We may still need a few people to hook up things at the end but these jobs will be increasingly deprofessionalized, lower paying and less and less in demand. If I was 18, no chance I would be hanging my career prospects on still being employed as a carpenter or plumber in 50 years.

[Lurker Deluxe]

92. I agree, to an extent

Certainly the wages of carpenters, new construction, will be stressed because of new tech. No way they will ever disappear but they will struggle ... hell, they already do.

Plumbers are plumbers, and until the world stops using toilets they will always have a job, it is what it is. It stinks, so it pays ... such is life.

I would disagree that most construction is residential, perhaps in quantity but in dollar value I would guess commercial/industrial beats out residential. I am in Houston, this may vary where you are. A new dock at the port is a pretty big, dollar wise, construction project, as is a new freeway overpass, high rise, or 200,000 square foot warehouse. All of which are in a constant state of being built/repaired/remodeled.

I would not hang my hat on being a carpenter but would surely hang it on robotics technician/operator. The welder is already being replaced by the robot, I know of several facilities here in Houston which either have them, or in the process of putting them in. The sticking point right now is programmers/technicians to get them up and running and keep them running.

I know, personally, an owner of a heavy manufacturer, welding, who bought one three years ago and has used it less than 100 hours because of operators. He hires someone and sends them to school, they come back, program it for a task, demand $75/hr, and are gone within weeks of returning from training. He has had this happen to him like four times in a row at $20K for a month of training.

Climate controlled shop, full benefits, million dollar piece of equipment, cannot use it ... that job is not going anywhere anytime soon and will be in crazy high demand for the next decade and a half, or so. Until the training catches up, if you can make that machine certify on a 6G you can name your price, and get it. $80-125/hr is going rate right now, as a sub contractor who is going to bill you for travel time and mileage, and if you look at him cross ... you will never see him again.

Tech is tech, and will always evolve ... people still have to operate machines, no matter how smart the machine is. Machines break, no matter how bad ass they are, and someone has to fix them. It is what it is ... those that can, do. And they get paid. Fall behind the tech, makes no difference if you are a computer programmer or you fix HVAC ... you will be unemployed.

[GulfCoast66]

114. I have been hearing this same shit for 40 years.

The nature of, well nature, will prevent this from happening.

[Adrahil]

111. I think plumbing, electrical, and finish work will remain.

I doubt they are gonna 3D print an Oak mantle for a fireplace anytime soon.

[Demsrule86]

73. High paying? Bullshit...these jobs pay crap these days.

even skilled trade is getting $12.00 and hour...I suppose the greedy employers want people to work for nothing. There comes a time when you can't afford to work for that sort of money.

[Kaleva]

102. According to BLS, carpenters make an average of $20.96 an hour

Plumbers and electricians average a few dollars more an hour.

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/home.htm

[Cosmocat]

120. One consideration

I know some folks in the trades, and a good portion of them bounce from job to job, so where the will end up working at a handful of sites every year, most often having to travel a good distance, and have to go on UE from time to time to fill the gaps.

A good portion of those in the trades don't end up with one company or working in one place steady.

I am a big supporter of the trades, vocational training, etc. But, this is a consideration.

[Codeine]

104. Even the soda merchandisers where I work

will be making $19 an hour next year, and that ain’t skilled labor, it’s a bunch of lazy kids unloading pallets at stores and putting cases on shelves.

Tradespeople - workers with actual skills - are making far more than twelve bucks an hour in the real world.

[Demsrule86]

119. Where I live in the Midwest skilled trades are being paid shit money...if they can find a job that

is. Sure there are the few high paying jobs...but few is the operative words...I have no idea where you live. I live in Ohio. And no soda jerk is being paid $19.00 per hour. Pretty soon GM assembly workers will be paid less than that in many plants (Tier 2). As for skilled trades there have been layoffs across the board.

[AJT]

79. Low unemployment may have something to do with it.

The pool of people left probably aren't top notch. The good employees are already taken.

[JI7]

83. The problem is these jobs are seen as less "respectable"

Not sure what other way to describe it. But it would be nice if these schools and jobs were viewed at an earlier age as equally good as the usual 4 year college when speaking of one's future.

[mbusby]

94. I had high school and one semester of college (major in music)...

...and was self-taught as a software engineer for 45 years. Ended up with a six figure salary at retirement.

[BobTheSubgenius]

95. One of the problems with construction work is the vagarious nature of it.

During the housing boom we have been experiencing, it's a great option. Even during times of average demand, it's an excellent way to make a living.

But when the market tanks, as it will from time to time, it's a very sad time.

The idea of raising wages - to the point of doubling them, as has been suggested - is a bad solution, IMO. The price of houses being what it is now (where I live, a SMALL "starter home" will set you back $600,000) and an average-priced new home is double that.

Even fixing one's house up for sale can become a non-starter when the people doing the work make more than dentists. Actually, I have no idea what dentists make, but I get I'm not far off.
I have a friend that's a small-scale electrical contractor. who says he's right at the bottom end of the market, and his new rate would be $130 an hour. My neighbour is a tile-setter, and his price to you just became $12 a square foot - extra for "custom" work like glass tiles, mosaics and trim.

That would have made just the labour for the walk-in I installed last summer north of $1000. How does that affect the cost of building a whole house? A LOT.

People tend to buy right at the outer edge of their ability to pay, so a fair amount of inventory slips out of the reach of people already straining their resources.

[captain queeg]

99. Lots of good replies.

When did it become standard procedure to get a college degree? My brother was the first one in our large extended family to get a degree. Several of us afterwards did so too. But college wasn’t all that expensive if you went to a state school. The room and board aspect was the hard part. I could work in summer and save enough for tuition, just needed to earn living expenses for the year. I did borrow money my last year to finish up.

I always tell my kid I don’t know what to advise him these days. So many of the things that worked for me wouldn’t work today. He’s smart and resourseful and he likes money. He’ll figure something out.

[underpants]

127. Opioids- don't forget them

Just wanted to throw that in

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

131. When I lived in South Carolina there were more trade schools than universities.

And this was before college tuition fees became astonomical (I paid $3,500 in tuition to get my law degree from The USC -- The University of South Carolina).

The theory was that most high school seniors didn't want to go to college, and that providing them with a good trade education -- one school even taught solar installation -- was an investment for the state. Higher wages = higher state taxes.

Although there were a number of things I disliked about living in South Carolina, I admired their approach to post-high school education.

[haele]

132. Not a shock since trade and skilled jobs have been demeaned for the past couple decades...

in pretty much a social/media war between corporations and the Unions to reduce the amount of bargaining power labor has.
There has been this stereotype of a trades employee that is of a slow-witted schlub or borderline slacker high school graduate who is always living just above the poverty level, spending any free money on beer and free time hanging out with their "buddies"; pining for the better life the boss has or that his or her kids will get if they can go to college and become a doctor, engineer, financier, lawyer - whatever. The TV and meme trope has become that you don't want to work in a garage, or as a plumber or electrician, unless you just want to have an aimless, dirty life being cheated by your employer or by the Union that is run by the local Mob if you live in a city or large town, or slowly fade away being underemployed and disrespected if you're living in a rural area.

Investment interests who want a complacent workforce have been pushing "skilled labor is not paying labor" in the media and at the schools for years - and that's a direct assault on the gains Unions have made over the past century.

And the other issue is the way investment interests have corrupted and short-changed our school system and our children in a similar two-pronged campaign in this country.

First - they twist child development science and push the conceit across popular media that "Kids are happier if their primary learning tool is to learn to play with their friends until they go to college - and they'll grow up there".
As if parents expecting children to experience an increasing level of personal responsibility and be able to leave the home as a fully functioning adult by the age of 18 - 20 is somehow child abuse.
The uninhibited emotional "expressions" of teenage is a fairly recent phenomena (since the 1950's); in the old days, while the teenager was still considered to be inexperienced and could not expected to act as an adult, the teenager was still expected to learn how to handle responsibility and develop self-awareness and control. We aren't talking child labor here - we're talking about learning about responsibilities and how to survive as a self-reliant adult before the time comes that the child is actually an adult, instead of being forced to learn those things after they've left the protection of a parent or guardian - and don't have the resources to be able to support them until they finally do learn, like the children of wealth are able to do.

Second - by hyper-monetizing the value of education, investment interests targeted the more expensive "hands on" curricula such as Shop, Home Ec. and pretty much all the creative arts.
By removing these courses from middle and high schools as expensive (because they can't be reduced to an hour at a time of simple rote learning or online course with a teacher-observer acting as monitor/accreditor) and not of the same "value" as those rote courses that get a student into college, the impression the students are left with is that working with your hands or working a trade is like a low-skilled service job - not as lucrative or important as the "career" one can get with a college education is.

So, society is left with a lot of young people who have been taught to look at short-term goals and that it's very important to be emotionally stimulated through play and peers than to look at long-term goals and to be stimulated by taking the results of their own handiwork and the different level of efforts and personal responsibility it takes to knuckle down and learn a skill.

And Corporations and their investment interests can drive down wages hiring immigrants and non-union workers while they cry about the lack of a skilled workforce - that they ruthlessly cut through their long-term social engineering efforts to demonize Unions in an effort to lower their costs, and infantilize as much of the youth as they can so the citizenry as a whole can be turned into reliable consumers of the useless and wasteful products they schill at inflated prices - all for profit.

Haele

[jrandom421]

138. My uncle was a plumber

in Sunnyvale CA, when it was mostly apricot orchards. He was one of the few who did commecial plumbing. He had a deccent living doing work for Lockheed Missles and Aerospace. But when Silicon Valley took off, his plumbing company got huge, spun off several other companies, and he made millions, despite not knowing a lick about high tech. His kids and grandkids, my cousins are a different matter

[dembotoz]

139. my thought on this is changing. whose job will technology displace next? robotic roofer seems a

natural...

we welcome a new to open ikea in my town....how many craftsmen will that displace?

do you gamble and guess wrong? or do you go to college to be generally employable to do something.

monty python has a catch phrase...and now for something completely different.... been the story of my lifetime.
had i know in college i would end up working in telecom and related industries i think i would have done much more damage to my liver............

where i went to college the one super employable major was paper technology....get the degree...multiple offers...
those paper mills are pretty much gone now