Why do so many of the libertarians I encounter seem to have racial issues?

[misanthrope]

It's a corollary I've noted for nearly two decades now. I run into libertarians -- sometimes agreeable, sometimes not -- but overwhelmingly they are white. Then given enough time to talk, they eventually hint at or outright reveal prejudices against other ethnic groups. A lot of it seems rooted in stereotypes about "welfare queens" and the like.

Given, I think a lot of libertarians are drawn to the anti-communal philosophy because they are essentially rooted or fixated in an adolescent perspective on the world. But how much of a role does racial prejudice play into their being drawn to it? Are those things symbiotic in some way?

Is it just me that's brushed up against this?

[TreasonousBastard]

1. Most of us have "racial issues" of some sort. Libertarians just aren't...

that good at dealing with them.

[Sherman A1]

2. My opinion is that

in general Libertarians are mostly of the mindset of "I have mine and I don't care about anyone else". Despite the facts that we all benefit from such things as public schools, universities, libraries, museums, roads, police, fire & EMT services. I find the philosophy overall generally counterproductive as I believe we do better when we look at bettering the common good.

[pnwmom]

5. They're hardcore Republicans wrapped in weed. n/g

[7962]

11. HAAAA!

[ToxMarz]

23. It does center around "I've got mine", but also the belief that they should have, and deserve theirs

Those who have theirs are Libertarians. Those who don't and believe they should become the white supremacist, misogynist, INCELS and other angry entitled groups who believe the "others" have stolen their opportunity. Whether it be money, status, sexual gratification and the like.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

43. They are the epitome of the Republican philosophy

of "I've got mine, f**k everybody else. They're just more lasseiz-faire about drugs and not hardcore about religion, really.

[ExciteBike66]

3. I can only speak for myself,

but I was a pretty hard-core libertarian/classical liberal at one point. Race had nothing to do with it for me personally. I was a young man and thought I knew everything (who doesn't at that age!) Actually, a lot of it had to do with Federalist Society-style legal theory (I ended up attending law school).

Then 2008 happened and I re-thought my political leanings.

[pnwmom]

4. Because libertarians have rightwing economic views. They aren't progressive

except for being pro-pot and neutral (usually) about LGBT.

They're just the pro-pot end of the rightwing spectrum.

[Atman]

6. Because theyre really just Republicans

There are no real Libertarians, just Republicans too embarrassed to admit it.

[late]

13. Big thumbs up

[Hortensis]

17. Yes! A lot are conservative poseurs for sure. BUT there's

a discrete personality type that is true libertarian. The only estimate of numbers I read thought maybe about 13%.

One of their characteristics is low-to-no altruism. Conservatives and liberals have altruism in common, differing in how many they feel it toward (my tribe, or my nation or even all humanity). Hard-core real libertarians think people who die trying to save someone else are exhibiting a basic flaw leading to a sick society, and there's a real limit to how much they can admire it, if at all.

As for paying taxes that go to take care of others, that's what has created a weak, sickness-riddled society of people who can't take care of themselves, instead of a strong, healthy, vigorous society of superior survivors. The first overlaps with conservatism, of course; but cons are way, way too tribal and altruistic to buy into the virtue of a lean, each-for-himself society of superior survivors. That's alien thinking.

Another hugely important characteristic identified in real libertarians is that personal liberty tops all other principles, in some elevated so high that others hardly count. Among the most extreme, that means no constraints on personal or business behavior -- society's reactions will take care of those not fit and leave the best. (When a tendency to romantic delusions becomes scary. )

Racism isn't a group characteristic for libertarians-by-personality, although it's not excluded in individuals of course. But also of course that complete personal freedom thing would create a huge problem for minorities in this brave new world. No surprise if this type -- at best -- cares little about survival of minorities as groups, rather than only their superior individuals; that'd require altruism and conflict with their goals of evolving society to eliminate the weak, regardless of color. Also no surprise if PoC have a little problem with this, including I imagine those naturally disposed to libertarianism. They're just a little to realistic about human nature.

?imwidth=480

[Bernardo de La Paz]

26. No. "low-to-no altruism" is Ayn-Randism or Objectivism. Often confused w libertarianism incorrectly.

[Hortensis]

27. Bernardo, this comes from scientific research into

human personalities. The opinions of political philosophers are something else.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

36. I'd be grateful to get some links to that research. I've followed some on RW Authoritarian Followers

[Hortensis]

45. There's very little current available on libertarians, or other.

Google libertarian and personality for a few third-person interpretations from back around 2010, some rather questionable. The best, most detailed and objective piece I found did not discuss things like "feminizing" of the Democratic Party for instance, but stuck to political personality itself; however, it was apparently removed from the web some time ago as I've never turned it up since. And Jonathan's Chait's evaluations of liberals, for instance, are not universally agreed with by his colleagues, or me.

I've noticed that after around 2012 or so researchers mostly stopped reporting on political personalities in lay language and lay publications. For obvious reasons. Very few universities aren't accepting donations from the same people who've packed governments around the nation with hard-core conservatives happy to serve and be served. And massive, national wave of hate against any institution can be whipped up on order.

A lot of the research that is being done is in subscription journals, and what I have found available the last times I've looked is obscured in scientific jargon requiring a learning curve just to get a basic idea of what the factor on a vertical axis is.

Which makes one appreciate all the more someone like Bob Altemeyer who wrote up the results of his research on authoritarians in lay language and made it available to the world without cost because he felt it was extremely important. But that was before, not now.

Last time I tried to delve into more current research was something more like aversion therapy than Altemeyer's delightful writing. If you come up with something more current, please pass it on.

[misanthrope]

46. This sounded very thoughtful

Thanks for that!

[MicaelS]

53. I'd agree 100%.

Their mania for personal liberty above all conflicts with the need for government correction for racial ills.

[Hortensis]

55. :) Oh, yes. They hate government "correction" for anything.

They're distinctly more anti-government than conservatives. After all, most conservatives do see a need to use government to force conservative-approved behaviors and punishments on others.

Not libertarians, and that's where some mistake them as being the same as liberals on social issues. Minorities are supposed to achieve liberty and equality just like everyone else in their brutal-romantic world -- by themselves and for themselves only.

There are moderate libertarians who do believe in some limited government, but it wouldn't include civil rights laws, which after all are pretty oppressive on those who create the need for them.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

25. Not true.

[thesquanderer]

34. Libertarians differ from traditional Republicans

Typically...

...strong on civil liberties (against the Patriot Act, massive government data collection, etc.)
...more likely to be pro-choice
...more averse to military action (against the Iraq war, and now less likely to approve of any military intervention in Syria, etc.)

I wouldn't assume they are more or less racist than the population at large. I think they probably tend to be white because there's also what I think is a common perspective of "I got where I am by myself, everyone should be able to do the same." That perspective doesn't take into account how the deck is stacked against minorities, whereas minorities are generally well aware of that.

[vlyons]

7. They are selfish and juvenile

Probably Ayn Randers too. They don't want gov telling them what they can and can't do.

[Zoonart]

29. Yep...

Like my brother. Overgrown teenagers that never outgrew their rebellion against parental authority. Selfish and juvenile... thier motto is, "Don't tell ME what to do."

[EffieBlack]

8. In my experience, most, if not all Libertarians I've dealt with are actually Republicans

but they're also contrarians who like to think/pretend they're independent and not bound by any particular philosophy or party, so they claim to be Libertarians.

They also tend to have, as you say, "racial issues" - which doesn't set them apart from many other Republicans. But they couch that in terms of wanting freedom to treat others however they wish without any consequences or criticism. And a big part of their attraction to the "get the government out of my life" is their objection to government stepping in to protect the rights of minorities and supposedly interfering with their "right" to discriminate against whomever they want in order to protect their own clear but unacknowledged sense of white superiority.

[OneGrassRoot]

14. Bingo...

The immaturity as others mentioned above, combined with this spot-on description, is accurate in my experience:

"But they couch that in terms of wanting freedom to treat others however they wish without any consequences or criticism. And a big part of their attraction to the "get the government out of my life" is their objection to government stepping in to protect the rights of minorities and supposedly interfering with their "right" to discriminate against whomever they want in order to protect their own clear but unacknowledged sense of white superiority."


Effie, thank you so much for your contributions and insights here. I've bookmarked nearly all of your OPs of late...lol.

[dalton99a]

31. +1

[misanthrope]

47. Nice encapsulation.

Very accurate

[JI7]

9. Libertarians are pretty much Republicans and Often Worse

[JI7]

10. Libertarains also tend to be Anti Choice

[Bernardo de La Paz]

22. No. Either you/they completely misunderstand libertarianism. Choice is the essence of libertarianism

Choice is the essence of libertarianism.

[mercuryblues]

30. And they never realize their own

hypocrisy on that. One of their basic beliefs is state's rights And personal autonomy, except when it comes to women choosing.

You want to smoke pot fine. You want to discriminate, fine. That toaster you bought that started a fire, you can't sue the free market will take care of it. But you wominz, I get to say what you can and can not do.

[Codeine]

12. Libertarians are just Republicans who smoke weed

[johnp3907]

15. They think their privilege is the natural order of things.

[Mike Niendorff]

33. *** BINGO ***

MDN

[canetoad]

16. Libertarians and anarchists

Only a pffteenth of an inch separates them. No rules, no regulation - until they, personally find something unfair. Never a thought for the future, where con-men and liars thrive and prosper.

Libertarians are the laziest seventies anarchists rebranded for the millenium.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

24. Wrong.

Libertarians are about self-regulation and banding together to self-regulate and heavy use of court systems to reify responsibility and enforce harm reduction / damage mitigation.

Anarchists are about anarchy. No regulation. No harm reduction. No damage mitigation.

[octoberlib]

18. I don't have anything to add on liberatarians and racism but I have noticed

that there tend to be a lot of men's rights activists and misogynists among them. All the libertarians I've encountered personally have been young, white and in tech.

[Javaman]

19. you know the old joke about libertarians, right?

they are republicans that smoke pot.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

20. Basically they misunderstand libertarianism and are not libertarians OR

... maybe you misunderstand libertarianism and have called them libertarians when they are not.

Many people call other "libertarian" without those others self-identifying that way.

There is a great deal of misunderstanding of libertarianism. It does not equate to robber baron capitalism.

[misanthrope]

48. They are self-identified

which is why I extend the courtesy of utilizing the classification with which they feel comfortable.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

50. OK, that's appropriate. When I feel a self-ID is not consistent then I often prepend "self-styled"

... (or maybe from now on "self-identified&quot .

[misanthrope]

56. Personal definitions

Self-styled seems to me as if it is addressing behavior or aesthetics, chiefly.

Self-identified seems to me as if it is the act giving yourself a label, solely.

As always, your mileage may vary.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

57. Both work, but I'm more likely to do it your way now that we have chatted. . . . nt

[SWBTATTReg]

21. Thanks for info. Very informative. nt

[barbtries]

28. i know a couple libertarians.

they're both republicans is what they are. i worked with both of them and one i consider a good friend. his thing is taxes. every cent he pays in taxes you would think he had to pull a tooth out of his mouth. interestingly, once we start talking about endless war we are on the exact same page. the other is a likable guy but extremely cheap and a foxbot. i don't have such warm feelings toward him. but we know each other well enough that i can call him a republican to his face.

[ehrnst]

32. I think that many are drawn to the Libertarian party that happen to be racist

much like the Republican party.

Also very self-centered, me first, everyone is out for themselves, and the strongest survive personalities.

That doesn't leave any room for the idea that our culture, society at large does create specific barriers for some groups.

Not all libertarians are like this. I defended women's clinics with a Republican who stated that he was with the more libertarian branch of the party that thought anti-choice laws were invasive.

[heaven05]

35. No, it is not just you

in the 90's after experiencing the likes of pres. raygun and his follow-up, the guy who got sick in Texass, I heard about a local Libertarian meeting and decided to check out the group. The door was open and I walked into a freezer and yes I was the only chocolate drop in a sea of white chocolate drops. With 2 universities in the local area, I live in a pretty diverse area. I had expected to see a diverse group. Nope, all white males and greeted with a couple immediate, oh no!, a n****r, looks, some paranoid looks, two were neutral. About 8 or nine people at the table. Hell, maybe they thought I was fed or state policing. I don't know. I plopped right down in a chair at the table. I greeted everyone, without the smile and got quiet waiting for someone to restart their conversations. I don't even remember the conversation. To busy trying to stay warm. To a man during this 'meeting' of the kla...uhh..libertarian party I was frozen out. They were talking about 1st Gulf War. I asked what they thought of 'shock and awe'? Given that most looked like the conspiracy Alec Jones-Breitbart types. Paranoid types. They to a man, looked uncomfortable with that question. The quiet voice told me, this wasn't for me.

I agree with your assessment. Symbiotic to a greater extent than admitted to. I'd love to have been able to retire into a dwelling in the forest or a certain Central American country, Pacific side. Is that what you mean by anti-communal?

Well here we are. 2018 in a mella va hess.

[H2O Man]

37. Recommended.

Your OP got me thinking .....as you always do .....and, yes, that holds true with the vast majority of the libertarians that I have encountered. In my opinion, for what it is worth, it may be that self-identifying as a libertarian is more socially acceptable than as a racist. Off with that white robe, and on with the khaki pants and button-down shirt, so to speak.

[Tipperary]

38. For some reason, I never run into

or “brush up against” these things in my life. If I meet people, politics never seems to come up. Only close friends speak about this to me. I have never met a libertarian ever, that I know of, so I cannot comment on their “adolescence.” I seem to be a minority here because people never speak up about their politics to me. Funny.

[lindysalsagal]

39. libertarians and racists have the same defect requirement for joining: stupid.

If it's not causal, it's correlational.

[Orsino]

40. Some of us contrarians can easily fall into the trap of racism.

And a lot of racists who lack the courage to be Democrats fall into the trap of libertarianism.

[The Polack MSgt]

41. Some people

would call them "Racist Stoners" but the accepted label is "Libertarian"

[MosheFeingold]

42. Dunno

I guess it depends on what one calls a "libertarian."

I have some libertarian leanings, in that I am very much a "non-authoritarian".

I firmly believe in leaving people alone, even when they are stupid, simply because I watched our government in the 40s to 60s control people from the right.

Just because we are now using the government as a means of re-educating people, doesn't mean that can't be ceased and turned against us.

I suppose my experience as a Jewish child in pre-war Nazi Germany also makes me fear any powerful government.

So I am probably some sort of "small government liberal".

This puts me tactically, but not strategically, at odds with a lot of Democratic policies, in that the current mode of thinking is top-down imposition of ideas (albeit ideas with which I agree).

I just find that a very dangerous form of government.

If we have 8 years of Trump, you will come to understand what I mean better.

[smirkymonkey]

44. I initially read this as "librarians" and was wondering to myself, what a strange post.

I wonder what this person has against librarians? It wasn't until I started reading the OP that I realized you were talking about "libertarians". Oh well, never mind.

?w=520&c=1

[misanthrope]

49. Thank you, Ms. Latella

Gilda was gold.

[hatrack]

51. Maybe because they're self-absorbed clowns who just don't know all that much?

That's been my experience . . .

[RockRaven]

52. I think a lot of self-proclaimed libertarians

are actually regressive and reactionary but don't want to pay the social cost of being such, and believe "libertarian" is a magical, intellectually respectable cloak in which to hide. Because Ayn Rand called herself a philosopher, or something.

[Shrike47]

54. The only Libertarian I know well is just plain selfish.

She is doing well in life, although not as well as she thinks she deserves, and thinks she’s entitled to it. Merit is rewarded and to hell with the poor.

[Garrett78]

58. "But how much of a role does racial prejudice play into their being drawn to it?"

That's an interesting question. Racism is taught, and many are steeped in it from a young age. Others come to it via media messaging and peer influences. I think the fostering and exploitation of racism plays a huge role in whether a person is drawn to either Republican or right wing Libertarian ideology. In fact, if we magically woke up tomorrow in a world free of racism, the Republican Party would cease to be a viable political party and right wing ideology as a whole would crumble.