Psychiatrist of CO shooter James Holmes's specializes in treatment of schizophrenia

[pnwmom]

The most probable conclusion is not that he faked schizophrenia for months, to the point of seeking treatment for it, as part of a diabolically clever plot, but that he actually was suffering symptoms of schizophrenia for which he'd sought treatment.



http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-07-27/news/sns-rt-us-usa-shooting-denver-psychiatristbre86q1di-20120727_1_colorado-denver-anschutz-medical-campus-package-schizophrenia


AURORA, Colo. (Reuters) - The man accused of killing 12 people and wounding 58 others in a shooting rampage at a Denver-area movie theater last week was under the care of a psychiatrist who has specialized in schizophrenia, newly filed court papers revealed on Friday.

The information came in a discovery motion filed by lawyers for James Holmes, the 24-year-old former graduate student who is accused of opening fire last Friday on a packed showing of the latest Batman movie, "The Dark Knight Rises," in the Denver suburb of Aurora.

The defense attorneys, in their request to an Arapahoe County district judge, are seeking a court order requiring prosecutors to turn over the contents of a package Holmes sent to Dr. Lynne Fenton.

"Mr. Holmes was a psychiatric patient of Dr. Fenton, and his communications with her are protected," the filing said.

SNIP

[backscatter712]

1. Well, that kind of spills the beans...

Holmes' behavior is pretty consistent with schizophrenia.

[pnwmom]

2. It has always seemed a likely possibility.n/t

[LisaL]

3. It's spills nothing of the sort.

Just because she specializes in one area doesn't mean that's what he was seeking treatment for.
She is working for an university and treats students-assuming that all of those she treats have schizophrenia is absurd.

[pnwmom]

8. In combination with his known behavior, it seems likely to me

that he has either schizophrenia or a similar mental illness.

Time will tell.

[HangOnKids]

13. You Seem To Know It All LisaL

As you castigte and demean those that disagree with you, you seem to be screeching your opinion even louder. Bossy much?

[LisaL]

17. Better know it all than know nothing.

[HangOnKids]

38. You are just looking for a fight aren't you?

Not biting, I only spar with worthy opponents.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Except that what we know now is highly consistent

that includes the age at which it manifests itself. I will patiently wait for the more than needed competency hearing.

FYI, HE COULD be schizoid, for real, and still be able to stand trial...

Or we could be facing another Loughner like case.

Why we need the COMPETENCY HEARING.

[Ruby the Liberal]

4. "What if there never was an Aaron"

Closing line from Primal Fear (the book).

Dude killed a priest and then based his entire defense on a character claiming to have schitzophrenia. Not to be a spoiler, but the character the attorney/court/doctor thought they knew as the "main" persona was made up, and the "evil" one they claimed showed up just to do the killings was the actual guy.

[pnwmom]

6. Uh-huh. And that is fiction for a reason. n/t

[Odin2005]

18. Schizophrenia is not Dissociative Identity Disorder.

Whydo people ALWAYS confuse those 2 illnesses?

[eShirl]

58. That always bugs me.

not sure how that began either

[Odin2005]

60. Schizophrenia literally translates as "split head".

The etymology is what causes the confusion.

[HereSince1628]

59. I think the reason it's often confused is because re: mental illness many folks are confused

In the past I thought that the prefix schizo (which means split or fractured) sent them toward split personality. But then I realized that most of them have no idea at all what schizo means.

[kestrel91316]

24. Schizophrenia has nothing to do with multiple personality disorder.

That book is poorly written, to say the least, if it confuses the two things.

Schizophrenia (per NIH): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001925/

MPD/DID per Wikipedia (NIH has no page for it because it may not exist, I guess): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder

[cbayer]

5. I don't think one can assume a diagnosis from a psychiatrist's area of expertise.

It is unlikely that she limits her practice to schizophrenia.

[pnwmom]

7. No, but in combination with Holmes's known behavior it seems pretty likely. n/t

[flamingdem]

10. How functional is a schizophrenic?

Seems like the plan was too complex for someone hindered by voices and visions

[cbayer]

14. Some schizophrenics can be pretty high functioning.

Some are brilliant. Some have significant obsessive-compulsive traits which might even aid in developing a complex plans.

And not all schizophrenics hear voices or see visions.

[pnwmom]

16. One famous schizophrenic won a Nobel prize in economics for work he produced

while he was actively suffering from schizophrenic delusions (voices and visions). He was functional enough in the early years of his disease to teach mathematics at Princeton University. His story was told in the book and movie, "A Beautiful Mind."

So, yes, a schizophrenic is capable of very complex thought and planning, despite suffering from delusions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Oh they can be very highly functioning

and the age that it manifests itself matches Holmes to a T.

Societies have had them from time immemorial, It is thought that some saints that had visions of God and all that, were highly functional schizoid or other similar issue.

[HereSince1628]

66. Very functional, as schizophrenic may be practicing MD's, but how dangerous are they?

Mark Vonnegut, son of Kurt Vonnegut, has schizophrenia and is a licensed MD with a practice. He wrote a book called "Just Like Someone Without Mental Illness Only More So". Point being a schizophrenic can be very high performing.

Estimates of public opinion suggest that just plain folks on the street think schizophrenics are 8 or 10 times more likely to be violent than non-mentally ill persons. Fazel looked in to the actual numbers and published a paper about it in JAMA back in 2009.

That study found that over 33 years of records, the risk of violence from the general population was about 5%. Overall, schizophrenics with a risk of violence of 13.2% were about 2 1/2 times more likely to be violent than the general population. But, that multiplier for all schizophrenics is more than a little bit leveraged because it includes schizophrenics with co-occurring substance abuse who commit whose risk for violence is about 27.6% (over 5x the risk of well people).

A study back in the late 1990s by Torrey (sp?) found that about 5% of homicides were committed by the seriously mentally ill (included schizophrenics and bipolar). If Holmes is seriously mentally ill, we must be open to the idea that he could be in that 5%

But with respect to folks going forward with life after the Aurora massacre with something other than a mythic belief about the dangerousness of the seriously mentally ill, it is important for people to be open to the empirical data that suggests that 95% of homicides are committed by people who are other than seriously mentally ill.

[cbayer]

12. I think it's a mistake to diagnose someone without examining them.

He appears to have been psychotic, but there are a variety of psychiatric illness that can cause psychosis. He might even have a purely neurological disorder like a brain tumor. He may have just started a workup to make the diagnosis or may have already been diagnosed. Time will tell.

[pnwmom]

20. Of course; this is all just armchair speculation. But I have always thought

it would turn out that he had some kind of schizophrenia or other brain disorder, other than pure psychopathy.

[cbayer]

28. Based on information available, I think you are most likely correct.

The big questions for me, at this point, will be is he fit to stand trial, and, if he is, can he be found not guilty by reason of insanity.

And then there is always the troublesome issue of medicating someone so they are able to stand trial when there is a possibility of the death penalty. It is a real ethical quandary for me about whether you should treat someone's illness if the outcome may be killing them.

Should be interesting as it gets unpacked.

[pnwmom]

34. And it would seem unfair to kill him if schizophrenic delusions are what drove his behavior,

but I think the law allows for that, if he's able to understand his crime now and participate in his defense.

[loyalsister]

61. I agree

The only facts available are

His name.
His age.
His mom's name
He had been a graduate student.
Sketchy information that suggestions he was having problems.
He interacted with a psychiatrist.
He committed this atrocious crime.

We have no clue about
His daily routine.
His affect and behavior in social or personal contexts.
His verbal content and behavior.
His relationships with others.
His behavioral and personal history.
Personal observations by others over a time.

Without that information and much much more, there is no basis for making assumptions.

[LisaL]

9. She obviously doesn't, since she works for the Univesity and provides mental health care to students

Unless when assumes that the only mental issues facing University students is schizophrenia.

[kestrel91316]

25. No, but if it is an area of particular focus or expertise, that's an interesting

little factoid, given that the guy seems delusional.

[DearAbby]

11. He claims no memory of that night.

This opens up a possibility. I can see the Defense building a strong case.

[LisaL]

15. We have no idea what he claims.

Unless you believe every rumor printed by the media.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. My lord, it SEEMS, qualifier for some

that indeed, some of us were correct in our suspicions.

Color me surprised at this point, really.

Now, more than ever, I want that COMPETENCY hearing.

[reformist2]

21. One teeny, tiny problem with that defense...

All the guns and ammo he bought over the past three months!

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. And that is how?

COMPETENCY HEARING.

[kestrel91316]

26. How so? Batshit crazy schizophrenics are perfectly capable of laying complex plans

for all manner of things and carrying them out.

Schizophrenia does not equal mental retardation. Not even close.

Schizophrenia also does not equal multiple personality disorder. not even close.

[LisaL]

29. Well it doesn't equal legal insanity either.

And frankly there is no evidence that's what Holmes was treated for. He could have been seeking treatment for numerous other things.

[pnwmom]

37. It doesn't equal legal insanity, unfortunately.

I think that in many if not most cases, it should.

[kestrel91316]

39. If someone is a paranoid schizophrenic suffering from delusion they are the very living definition

of legally insane.

You don't know anything AT ALL about mental illness, do you?

But you sure act like you think everyone suffering from it is simply evil and wilfully malicious.

[LisaL]

43. Well, you don't seem to know anything about legal definition of legally insane.

Look it up.

[kestrel91316]

47. I know plenty about it. I had to deal with a schizophrenic mother

who found herself in a few legal scrapes over the years.

And judges, BTW, at least in some areas of the country, are as ignorant as the general public about it.

[pnwmom]

53. I'm not sure about how that works, kestrel.

I understand that the definition of legally insane is so narrow that even someone with delusions can be considered legally sane. All they have to be able to do is understand that what they did was illegal, and to be able to cooperate in their defense, whatever that means. So there have always been cases of schizophrenic patients who've been tried and found guilty, despite their illness.

[cbayer]

57. It has to do with the ability to distinguish right and wrong.

It's a sticky wicket, but delusions wouldn't necessarily make someone legally insane.

[cbayer]

30. Schizophrenia is a severe and chronic mental illness. Using pejoratives like "batshit crazy"

continues to marginalize and harm those with chronic, severe psychiatric disorders. I would like to see that change.

[LisaL]

31. I don't envision it changing any time soon if it's used to explain mass murders.

[cbayer]

32. I'm not sure what you are saying here. Untreated or inadequately treated psychiatric illnesses

can lead to acts of violence. Many patients are hospitalized because they have the potential to harm others or themselves. Increased awareness of the need for better access to treatment when events like this occur is not a bad thing

[pnwmom]

51. Why would that be? Every case of a paranoid schizophrenic is different.

In most cases, their delusions don't lead to murders or other serious crimes.

But in a few, they do; the crime is the direct result of their delusions, and out of their control.

The fact that, rarely, a schizophrenic's disease leads him to terrible acts shouldn't affect how we look upon ALL schizophrenics. And it should cause us to look upon the schizophrenic murderer -- even if he did murder as a result of his delusions -- with more compassion than we would someone who, for example, murdered for hire.

[pnwmom]

36. I would also like to see that change.n/t

[kestrel91316]

40. My mom was a paranoid schizophrenic and if I want to refer to her as batshit crazy because that's

the best way to get across how disordered her mind was, then that's how I will refer to her.

[cbayer]

44. I'm sorry about your mom's illness, and, of course, you can refer to her anyway you want.

I just wanted to point out that using these kinds of terms can be hurtful to a population that is already pretty hurt.

[kestrel91316]

48. I am pretty sure that my comments won't bother any schizophrenics in the least. They

are, for the most part, convinced that their minds are functioning normally and it's the rest of the world that's crazy.

[reformist2]

33. If he was seeking help, did he hide his "big plan" from his doctor?

Or worse, did he tell the doctor about them, but the doctor didn't take these threats seriously?

[cbayer]

46. If the doctor was told, there are very clear laws and legal decisions about the need to

protect others.

Even if the psychiatrist doesn't really believe the patient, there is still an obligation to act, even if it means breaching confidentiality.

[LAGC]

50. I thought that was only the case for reports of alleged child abuse?

I imagine quite a few people have shared thoughts about wanting to hurt others with their psychiatrists, but they can't be expected to take all those cases seriously, let alone involve the cops. A good part of a psychiatrist's job is trying to control a subjects behavior, not breaching confidentiality and turning them in to the police on the slightest indication of a possible threat.

[cbayer]

52. It's the Tarasoff decision.

Every person working in mental health knows about it. They take it extremely seriously and there is little grey area.

You have an obligation to protect others if a patient reveals thoughts of harming others. That doesn't necessarily involve the police at all. You can inform the threatened parties, hospitalize the patient, talk to family/friends about removing weapons.

Confidentiality goes out the window in these cases.

[reformist2]

55. Interesting... I have to wonder if this doctor messed up.

[cbayer]

56. Time will tell. I have seen no information on how long she had been seeing this

guy or whether she had any information that she should have revealed.

[pnwmom]

35. A Princeton grad student with active schizophrenia performed Nobel prize winning work

Last edited Sat Jul 28, 2012, 07:16 PM - Edit history (2)

while he was suffering his delusions. His name was John Nash. Eventually his disease progressed to the point he was no longer able to work, but in the early years he accomplished quite a lot.

So buying guns and ammo over three months proves nothing about whether James Holmes had schizophrenia or not.

[kestrel91316]

41. THANK YOU.

These people drive me crazy with how little they understand about this devastating disease.

[pnwmom]

42. It's been surprising to me. I didn't realize there was

this level of ignorance about the disease.

[kestrel91316]

45. I expect ignorance from RWers, but not DUers.

I am appalled by some of what I see on here - it's like they think mentally ill people are MORE evil than regular cold-blooded murderers motivated by money or anger.

[cbayer]

49. This is a huge part of the problem, isn't it.

No pink ribbons, no public service announcements, no 5K walks to raise funds, no booths at fairs to promote education and support.

Totally marginalized with few advocates, poor access to treatment and jail cells instead of hospital beds.

I am hopeful that the healthcare act will address some of this, but the psychiatrically ill tend to be the last ones the list....

always.

[reformist2]

63. What ignorance?

[pnwmom]

64. The people who think it isn't possible for a person with schizophrenia

to carry out complicated plans (or to buy weapons online) are ignorant. Schizophrenics can be brilliant people, in spite of their delusions.

[reformist2]

62. Yes, but you give Nash credit for his work, right?

[pnwmom]

65. The world has given him credit for his work. I don't understand your point.

Mine is that a schizophrenic person can be suffering from delusions and yet also carry out complex work. Schizophrenia could have led Holmes to carry out the murders, and wouldn't have precluded him from accomplishing the necessary steps.

[cindyperry2010]

54. that is what i figured

schizophrenia hits more males than females and most often in the onset of puberty. he sounds like he has been sick for awhile.