One thing REALLY bothers me about Lamb's campaign:

[RandomAccess]

His disavowal of Nancy Pelosi, presumably to ward off attacks on him trying to pin her to him.

First, IMO she's not that liberal. But she was one of THE MOST EFFECTIVE Speakers of the House ever.

Second, and more important, the GOP will vilify and demonize ANYONE who's the Dem Leader of the House -- and all the easier to do when she's a woman (so yes, it's also sexist).

Third, and a little less important but still an issue, leadership IMO on Lamb's part would have involved standing up to that line of attack. What / who will he next feel required to disavow because of Republicon attacks, which they now know he's vulnerable to?

IMPORTANT NOTE: This post is NOT an argument pro or con Pelosi. It's NOT an argument pro or con Lamb and his centrist views. It's about ONE single issue about how he waged/handled his campaign. I think we have to be smarter than that, frankly.

[Lint Head]

1. Politicians have had their come-to-jesus moment before

Or what is now referred to as evolving. I think lamb did what he had to do to get into office. All I can say is thank goodness he won. I have a feeling he will vote with majority of Democrats. Actually I think he played their game and he won their game. What happens in the future is important because we must build a majority in the house and the Senate again

[dameatball]

81. Yes. This.

[ollie10]

2. It is also age-ist, but we need new blood....

It is hard to run as the Party with new ideas with her at the top

[RandomAccess]

7. The other side of that coin is --

Assuming we take the House in November. Wouldn't it be preferable to have someone really experienced at the helm? There's SO much that needs to be done.

I'm personally torn on the subject.

[LBM20]

15. We need someone new at the helm. Pelosi is old school and old news. Time for CHANGE.

[LanternWaste]

45. What specific changes are you hoping for?

What specific changes are you hoping for, and what objective/medical evidence leads you to believe those conceptual changes are limited only to more youthful minds?

Of course, I'm not discounting that your little bumper-sticker outburst could simply be nothing more than an unsupported opinion; for example, potentially, there's someone out there who holds the opinion that two plus four equals watermelon as well.

[marybourg]

78. Ad hominum attacks are unnecessary and

frowned upon here. Dispute the idea, not the personality.

[titaniumsalute]

100. Frankly this isn't about age

It is about optics. Not optics of age but optics of narrative. Sadly the right has made people like Hillary and Nancy poisoned. It may have even poisoned many in the moderate camp. That isn't their fault. It isn't our fault. But frankly I agree that we might want to look at different (and maybe that means younger, blacker, gayer, etc.) blood. Nancy has been Speaker of the House. She has been very influential. But she's also a complete lightning rod.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

145. Who?

[BoneyardDem]

182. Just no.....this is not the time to experiment with unknowns

Nancy knows the ropes, has the right connections and has very deep insights into rules and processes...meaning she is the counter to the Republican McTurtle who's been using that same knowledge to harms Dems. A less experienced person would loose at every turns to MConnell.

[ollie10]

46. she would not win if she ran in lamb's district

as good as she is, and as liberal as she is, and as experienced as she is....

Neither would she win in a LOT of the districts we need to peel off who are currently represented by Rs.....

If we win 100% of the districts we already represent, we will not gain a single seat!

The only way we get a majority in Congress is to peel off seats that voted R last time.

Pelosi is not going to help us do that. She is an anchor, not a sail. And Hillary would be wise to stay out of these districts too.

Pelosi needs to step aside so someone younger can take the helm. For the good of the party.

One of the lessons from last nights VICTORY was that good candidates, who fight for health care, against the Trump tax bill and are a good fit for their district can WIN.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

60. Pelosi didn't need to win PA-18

I hope the voters who put Pelosi in office will keep her there.

[ollie10]

69. I think you were missing my point

We have to pick up seats that are currently R if we want to gain control of Congress.

In these seats, Pelosi is an anchor, not a sail

[Hermit-The-Prog]

73. didn't miss it; don't agree with it

According to the Repugs, every Democrat "is an anchor".
Piss on 'em. Their way is proven to create misery. Voters seem to be recognizing that more and more.

We seem to be doing some national news-worthy flipping with House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi not in hiding.

[ollie10]

77. Lamb won by less than 1000 votes

And he didn't endorse Pelosi.

You are betting that he would still have won if he had endorsed Pelosi?

Problem with that bet is if we lose, we get a R instead of Lamb.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

83. Lamb did not run in CA

Connor Lamb ran for election in PA-18.
Nancy Pelosi represents CA-12.

Why on earth would Pelosi seek Lamb's endorsement?

All politics are local. The voters in PA-18 were more concerned about their district than the TrumPutins who came to campaign. Paul Ryan won't help them; McConnell won't help them. Apparently, most of them don't trust the bribe (tariffs) that TrumPutin offered.

[ollie10]

95. I think the issue was whether would endorse Pelosi for SPEAKER

[Hermit-The-Prog]

97. I get that you don't like Pelosi

I like her. Her voters obviously like her.

Please stop campaigning against her.

[ollie10]

106. so you are trying to silence me?

Sorry, but don't tell me what to do. I am not your child.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

183. I did not

I didn't "tell [you] what to do" and I in no way implied that you are my child.

I politely requested that you not campaign against Pelosi. You chose to continue. That's all.

In civil discourse, each side presents their arguments. You have presented your one argument over and over through this thread. That's campaigning, not discussing.

Have fun.

[ollie10]

190. Denial

I presented my case about Pelosi. You tried to frame it as a "campaign". No, I was posting on DU, I am not interested in running for office. Then you told me to end. In other words, you told me to shut up. Again, I am not your child and you don't get to tell me to shut up

[mcar]

89. Why would a candidate "endorse" an already elected official from another state

And I bet Lamb wouldn't have won in CA.

[Demsrule86]

109. No speaker will win in districts. they are hated by the other side...thus

it doesn't matter...

[ollie10]

114. you are apparently unaware of just how strong the anti-Pelosi thing is out there in the real world

[emulatorloo]

9. Shes one of the most liberal voices we have, and her constituents keep voting for her

She’s a hell of a effective leader in the House.

I’ll take her “old blood” any day over some young inexperienced conserva-Dem.

[LBM20]

13. Sounds like you enjoy losing elections and don't want to be a big tent national party.Goody for you.

[emulatorloo]

16. Did you mean to address your post to me?

Because what you wrote has zero to do with anything I’ve said in this thread.

[Demsrule86]

117. We just won... first of all so maybe you should consider your words more carefully.

Nancy is not the problem.

[ollie10]

23. We need to win

We can't succeed if we become a party for the two coasts.

I congratulate Lamb on WINNING.

You don't get anything done if you lose.

[Me.]

115. And You Don't Get Anything Done

if you don't have a leader who can hold the conference together. Nancy can and does, better than anyone in recent memory.

[ollie10]

138. how old does she have to be before we want to develop new leadership?

[Me.]

156. Why Is Age The Qualifier

and btw, new leadership develops itself. They decide that is the field for them and start learning and working their way up. I wonder if your ageism/something else? against Pelosi is a matter of dislike looking for an excuse.

[ollie10]

160. My problem is I don't like 29% approval ratings and I don't like D losses

I have nothing personal against Pelosi. She has had a long run. I think it would be better if, out of party loyalty, she left a path for a new face.

29% approval ratings is brutal. That not only is not helpful, it is harmful.

[Me.]

168. So Nancy Is Solely Responsible For The Dems Approval Rating?

And which handsome young face were you thinking should take her office? Nevermind that your argument goes against the very democratic principles the party says it holds, letting votes decide and.... that the getting rid of Pelosi meme falls right into RW hands

[ollie10]

169. I was not talking about D rstings. 29% is Pelosi'

The Rs would love to make all the house elections a referendum on 29% Pelosi.

Nobody's job is irreplaceable

[Me.]

170. So Let's See, The Cons Made Nancy The PUnching Bag In The Lamb Race

and yet against all the stringent odds, Lamb still won. Yeah, she's a problem. Funny thing, I saw her being criticized by some on this board for not being more front and center. She, HRC and DiFi get beat up regularly on DU. NO wonder the Cons get away with treating her as they do.

[ollie10]

171. Lamb said he would not vote for pelosi

If he had endorsed her, I doubt he would win

[Me.]

173. Of Course He Did

Why was it necessary to do so/not do so? She's not the head of the party., she's very successful in the way she runs the Dem side of the House contrary to the hapless way the Cons run it and yet...the call here and elsewhere is let's boot her out. I'd love for someone to give an example of a race she lost for someone. That old liberal, from San Francisco who raises more money for more wins than anyone else...I wonder how she does it...maybe they feel sorry for that feeble old lady leaning on her cane. Has she gotten to the drooling stage yet? Boy, thank heavens Bernie Sanders isn't that old he'd never get to run for pres. when so many young faces want the job....wait... why I think he's a whole year younger than she.

[ollie10]

175. She's at 29%

When she rises above Trump's ratings please let me know

[Me.]

180. Why Would I

You're too entrenched in the meme

and you might consider what Lamb really stands for before repeating those talking points

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210358758

[ollie10]

191. He won. And he refused to endorse her. The two facts are related.

If you are preparing for the Super Bowl and you have one of your defenders who was majorly injured in practice. The player has been loyal and a good player all season long. But you know he is not ready for the game, and if you let him play, the opposing team is going to exploit your weakness over and over and run up the score. You still could win, but you will have to make more touchdowns to make up for the higher score for your opponents. OK, coach....do you let the guy play because of loyalty or do you want to win the game?

[Me.]

192. Like I Said

Even here on DU

[Exotica]

185. I am not being snarky here, I would like to know who you think would make a good Speaker

Some who would be possible candidates

Adam Schiff?
Joe Kennedy III?
Eric Swalwell?
Seth Moulton?
Tim Ryan?
Tulsi Gabbard?
Henry Cuellar?
Keith Ellison?
Jackie Speier?
Ted Lieu?
Katherine Clark?
Joaquín Castro?
Ruben Gallego?
Luis Gutiérrez?

wild card (as the Speaker doesnt even have to be in the House)

[ollie10]

186. Let the caucus decide

I like kennedy. But for president some day

Lots of good names on the list

Also the speaker doesn't have to be a member of Congress

How about obama?

[Exotica]

187. do you think Obama would go for it?

I LOVE THAT IDEA!!! LOVE IT!!

[pandr32]

41. But isn't your comment also ageist?

Why can't a senior person, a woman at that, be open and fair-minded? Perhaps the wisdom and experience we would expect a senior public servant to have would help examine new ideas responsibly through that lens? Wouldn't this be what would make a strong party leader?

[ollie10]

44. Sure it is age-ist and I collect social security so I am no spring chicken

I don't, however, want to spend the remaining years of my life with a Republican Congress.

[pandr32]

57. I am glad you admit it is

Older people can be ageist, too, and the related stereotyping is evident in your comment insinuating that unless we have young leaders with new ideas we will be stuck suffering a Republican Congress.

There are many of us who see things differently.

We need all kinds of Democrats because we have a diverse population that spans the socioeconomic spectrum. We can't have a functioning democracy unless all people are represented.

[ollie10]

66. The Rs would love nothing more than for Pelosi to be their target

As an added bonus, they can run against left coast liberals and the establishment

[Hermit-The-Prog]

74. let 'em

You want to win by following Rethugs' orders?

I don't.

[ollie10]

79. No. I just don't want to make their job any easier

You sound like you don't care if we win. If we can't have Pelosi, then we can go ahead and lose, no big deal.....

Wrong. Yes big deal.

[pandr32]

91. Perhaps you are wrong

Nancy Pelosi knows how to do her job well. Why not support her?

[pandr32]

87. Me either

[ollie10]

178. You win by playing smart

[Hermit-The-Prog]

181. I like Pelosi. We won.

[ollie10]

184. In 2010 we lost

[pandr32]

86. They will slam whoever is in her spot

...and will have the help of their troll armies, Russia, and all their right-wing noise machines to spread their crap far and wide. It is who they are. We are not listening and there are more of us then them. GOTV.

[ollie10]

92. we would be more effective if we had somebody else

sure they will slam whomever is on the spot....except for one thing....we don't have to announce in advance who it is going to be. She could step down, and they we would decide after we win the majority....

[Hermit-The-Prog]

96. your hypothesis is unproven

[ollie10]

105. we don't have to say who is going to be speaker

pelosi was one of the reasons the 10 elections went so poorly for us.....the tea party ran against pelosi

a lot is at stake this fall. We surely don't need any built in disadvantages. She could step down. Heck, she could change her mind and run again after the election for all I care.

It seems like all of our leaders are old. We need some younger folks to step up to the plate.

[pandr32]

107. I completely disagree

Besides, not announcing in advance doesn't matter. They have the generic anti-Democrat attacks ready to go and all they need is the name when they get one. They have never hesitated to make stuff up if they can't find something in a pinch.
Most of us are already numb to the anti-Pelosi rhetoric. I doubt they will have much that is new regarding her.
Nancy Pelosi has earned the right to step down when she calls it--not you.

[ollie10]

111. do you have something against developing new leadership?

what is going to happen when all the old people die off?

[pandr32]

146. What a strange argument

Are you really suggesting that it is better to plunge younger people without experience into leadership positions so that they will learn on the fly because "old people die off?"

We have a party full of amazing candidates who are gathering experience as they do their jobs in Congress. When those "old people die off" from leadership positions I have no doubt our party will elect good people to replace them. There will be no cliff for us to all fall from. We've got this.

Every argument you've made is easily taken down.

Have a nice day.

[ollie10]

149. You too

[bettyellen]

116. So....we hide our candidates because the GOP will attack them.

Okay then.

[ollie10]

125. it is a house election

there is really no reason to say in advance who would be the speaker before November. Why would we need to do that? And why wouldn't we wait until we had a majority in the first place?

[bearsfootball516]

126. We don't have to hide them

But would you have rather he embrace her, and lose the election?

[ollie10]

179. Why not simply trust the caucus?

[pandr32]

202. No secret voting

And a whole bunch of other problems.

[ollie10]

203. I was referring to the caucus in the house....

[pandr32]

204. Okay. They have a secret ballot at least.

I support Nancy Pelosi and if she steps down or is replaced I would hope she is replaced by someone as effective as she is. I will not slam her or Democrats in the meantime. None of us should.

[ollie10]

205. Fair enough!

She is a great Democrat and has done a lot of good.

[Eko]

177. Sounds like you are not only ceding the narrative to the republicans

but you are using it against Democratic leaders. You should be FFR'd for this.

[emulatorloo]

3. I doubt Pelosi gives a shit. She has a thick skin

And I’m sure she is very very happy to have another Democrat in the house.

[GulfCoast66]

11. Excellent post.

[Eliot Rosewater]

76. He could call her a 3 legged duck with the brains of a 5 legged giraffe, as long as he wins

and has a D after his name, she will LOVE him!

Again, politics, 101...math...thanks for realizing this.


Leave the hurt feelings up to us voters, I hate it when people go after her, but she will use that to her advantage EVERY time, she is a great politician and American leader.

[pandr32]

94. Hat's off to you!

[Glorfindel]

4. IMPORTANT QUESTION: You couldn't - possibly - let us have one day to be glad?

Just 24 little hours before the "really bothers me" stuff starts? Not a lot to ask, but too late now. Have a great day.

[RandomAccess]

10. I'm sorry -- it's been bothering me for quite a while

you'd have preferred me state it before the election??

ETA: If there's anything in my post that makes you think I'm not also glad -- REALLY glad-- he won, you need to disabuse yourself of that idea. I'm thrilled. I stayed up as late as I could to try to see the results.

[njhoneybadger]

140. It bothered all of us too

and just maybe it bothered him also. Connor knew it would bother some of us but believed it was a winning strategy and he was right. I would bet that even Nancy Pelosi would agree he did the right thing, he did what was best for the party.
We must win. We all must do what is best for the team

[ProfessorGAC]

5. Remember, Saccone Used That As An Attack Point

That may have just been a tactical approach to disarm an idiot opponent.

[RandomAccess]

8. Yes, I know -- and specified same

[bearsfootball516]

6. It had to be done.

She was vastly unpopular in the district and with the GOP trying to pin Lamb and Pelosi as one in the same, his only chance to win was to renounce her. If he hadn't, it's highly unlikely he would have won, considering he only won by a few hundred votes.

[RandomAccess]

14. Why is she vastly unpopular? One reason and one reason only

SHE (actually, it's 2 reasons -- one, she's a powerful woman) has been demonized endlessly by the GOP, just as Hillary was. Are candidates supposed to run away from ALL the people the GOP would demonize? What power that gives them!

[LBM20]

20. She is a Pacific coast liberal, old school establishment, and does not play in red-leaning areas.

Are you actually interested in winning or not?

[alarimer]

28. This is fucking stupid.

Pelosi has been demonized by the right-wing hate machine. We need not give in to those fucking morons just to win.

[DFW]

144. Not to mention that she is from Baltimore

She moved out to San Francisco as an adult. Fox Noise would have their zombies believe she is an aging acid-head from Haight-Ashbury.

[ollie10]

29. I think some would rather be pure and whine when they lose.....

....whining feels so good

[Demsrule86]

113. I think some are being unnecessarily divisive and I have to wonder why...who cares

who the minority leader is at the moment? The pukes will hate anyone. You have to choose someone who is rock solid in their district and Nancy is that.

[ollie10]

118. let's not be devisive, let's all support the new generation of Democratic leadership

and let them develop.

[Me.]

193. OH NO A Loss

Wait, what...you mean there wasn't a loss...not in Pa. or Ala... damn that Pelosi. I guess those Republican talking points aren't working with the Cons, just some Dems.

[ollie10]

194. Lamb won. Lamb refused to endorse Pelosi. Do you oppose Lamb?

Or....put another way.....in dozens of other districts this Fall where Trump won.....would it be ok for the Democratic candidate to refuse to endorse Pelosi if he/she thought it would help defeat the R?

[Me.]

196. Such Silliness On Your Part

makes me wonder

[ollie10]

198. Don't want to answer the questions I see

[Me.]

199. Again Such Silliness

and again...I wonder

[ollie10]

200. OK. Have a good day

[Me.]

201. I Intend To

[emulatorloo]

30. I like how left liberals are Quote ESTABLISHMENT UnQuote here at DU

Last edited Wed Mar 14, 2018, 01:57 PM - Edit history (1)

While in the real world, Establishment Republicans demonize her. Do we really want to echo egregious GOP rhetoric about left-liberals and assist them with their bullshit?

That being said, it is up to House Membership if they want to replace Pelosi. I’ll trust them to do what they need to do. I expect it will be a decision based on skills and know how, not a nebulous “political decision” because Republicans hate her.

[Ninsianna]

37. Yes, we are, which is why we find this regurgitation of GOP talking points troubling.

[emulatorloo]

67. Well said

And very succinct.

[LovingA2andMI]

153. In Winning At All Odds...

It is important to take a WINNING Strategy. Period. And you are right-on-point here.

[ollie10]

26. So are you arguing that it is a good thing that we have a leader that is demonized?

Pelosi is an anchor on any candidate running other than on one of the coasts. Hillary, same thing.

[RandomAccess]

32. WHAT???

Perhaps you should go back and read the thread.

[emulatorloo]

72. Doesnt matter who our leadership is. GOP propagandists will lie about and demonize them n/t

[ollie10]

75. true enough. all the more reason to not give them an easy target

[Demsrule86]

120. They will make anyone the target...they will find something.

The bullshit on Nancy is old hat and given last night's election not effective.

[ollie10]

128. last night did not support your hypothesis

Lamb refused to endorse Pelosi as speaker....and he won

Would you have been happy with the outcome if he had endorsed her and lost?

[chowder66]

154. So you're saying that the only reason people voted for Lamb is because he shunned Pelosi?

Are you sure there weren't any voters that stayed away because of that distancing from Pelosi - the first and only female speaker of the house?

[ollie10]

159. No I am not saying that.....but nice straw man!!!

Pelosi has 29% approval ratings, which is about 10 points under Trump!

You really think that is going to help D candidates running for Congress?

I think Lamb would have lost if he had supported her.

[chowder66]

174. It wasn't meant to be a straw man if you cared to ask.

The approval ratings for Democrats are painfully skewed in my opinion. This is due to the media and anyone else that constantly states this is the worst Congress ever for the last I don't know how many years.

It's the republican congress that's horrible.

As for thinking it would hurt or help other Democrats, it may help those running in conservative districts but messaging should be strong enough that they don't have to run against each other. That's were it gets dangerous. There are plenty of progressives that support Pelosi. Should every democrat play to the sentiment of a few in every district? Pit dem against dem? That's a losing strategy.

If Lamb would have lost had he supported Pelosi, and it was only by denouncing Pelosi that got him over the top, then that is well played. In that district, for that seat. But did it take enough over the edge to help him win? Maybe. Did he lose any votes by denouncing her? Maybe.

We will never know for sure.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

148. If there was a better reason

that she is an "anchor" on any candidate, I might agree with you (i.e. morally or ethically compromised). I don't believe that Pelosi has done anything to justify being abandoned/disavowed other than being the bane of Republicans' existence. They don't have Hillary or Obama to use as a punching bag or boogyman (or woman) anymore (at least they are no longer imminent threats to them), so they keep on focusing on Pelosi. The thing is that she's done nothing morally or ethically wrong and we should not be doing the Republicans' dirty work for them.

[ollie10]

150. If she, at 29% approval, makes it difficult to get the house majority, she won't get to serve either

To me, it is a strong argument that if you are hurting your party's chances of getting a majority it is your duty to step aside out of party loyalty

Face it, she has an approval rating of about 29% according to the Huffington Post!!!! That's worse than Trump.

All the Rs have to do with any Democratic contender is to say " if you vote for (fill in the blank), then Pelosi will be Speaker"

The commercials virtually write themselves.

We know what the Tea Party did with Pelosi in 2010 and we remember how that worked out....we don't need history to repeat

[RandomAccess]

98. Here's how he could have handled it --

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10357361

also see my response to that post -- the two part together are what I would have vastly preferred.

[LBM20]

12. Pelosi is toxic in that district and others. It wasn't personal, and YES, it is time for NEW BLOOD.

[Demsrule86]

127. No...we keep our experienced leader to fight Trump ...so forget it. And the right will hate

any Democrat... she has been very effective, I get why the GOP wants her gone but Dems should kiss her ass and thank her as she has held her coalition together and saved the country really. I have no idea why you would echo the right and advocate allowing them to choose our speaker. There is no way we can put a center right speaker in power...not happening. Democrats will pick our speaker and the GOP and their twitter trolls can fuck off.

[TheCowsCameHome]

17. Conor Lamb (and Seth Moulton) are the future of this party.

They are bright, they are energetic, and they know how to win.

[RandomAccess]

21. Ugh

ETA:

“I don’t think I’ve seen a more opportunistic, duplicitous person serving in the House,” said a senior Democratic aide, blasting Moulton as somebody who talks bigger than he plays and who pillories Pelosi while almost always voting the same way. “He doesn’t do anything around here,” the aide said.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/07/28/seth-moulton-congressman-run-president-2020-profile-215428

[alarimer]

35. I certainly hope not.

I want old-school progressives. Winning while abandoning Democratic Party principles is why we are in this mess in the first place. The DLC sold out on everything, giving us the drug war, mass incarceration, increasing income inequality, losing massive amounts of good union jobs overseas, to say nothing of losing politically.

[seaglass]

18. I think Lamb is a Seth Moulton guy who is a Tim Ryan guy. They are of a contingent

that wants to take the leadership from Nancy. I do not support them in that effort.

[RandomAccess]

19. Me either.

[LBM20]

22. I do because we need new blood. It isn't personal, but the party has been smashed to pieces all over

the country and what happened after 2016? No leadership change. Well that STINKS! That is NUTS! She needs to GO. She has had her turn. It is not about gender. It is not personal. Enough of that. We need CHANGE. Period.

[babylonsister]

27. I totally disagree.

I could give a rat's ass if the rethugs don't like her. She's powerful and has been very effective. I think her age brings wisdom and we sure could use more of that.

[ollie10]

40. I don't think the issue is whether the Rs like her

The issue is whether she adds or detracts from our chances of winning in non-coast elections.

I think it is clear she is more of an anchor than a sail.

[MrsCoffee]

31. Had her turn?

She hasn't "had" anything. This woman has worked tirelessly and fought against some of the nastiest people ever in power. She has earned her place in the Senate and in the Democratic Party.

Your narrative is offensive and short sighted.

[Agschmid]

51. She isnt in the Senate.

[MrsCoffee]

59. Sorry, you are right.

Too much frustration and not enough coffee.

[Ninsianna]

42. Weird that your complaints are personal and gender based.

[RandomAccess]

52. +1

[Demsrule86]

131. The leadership was not to blame for 16.

[uponit7771]

163. Beyond asinine to associate 16 with any democrat, this is height of bashing after all the evidence

[jberryhill]

24. Now is NOT the time for this

[Tom Rinaldo]

34. Exactly n/t

[RandomAccess]

50. Why not? And when IS the right time?

And since so many others have had a difficult time figuring out what I did say from what I didn't say, here's this excerpt from my OP:

IMPORTANT NOTE: This post is NOT an argument pro or con Pelosi. It's NOT an argument pro or con Lamb and his centrist views. It's about ONE single issue about how he waged/handled his campaign. I think we have to be smarter than that, frankly.

[Tom Rinaldo]

56. Context

Sometimes I marvel over how often clear headed folks can show insufficient appreciation for the role of emotions in overall decision making, motivation, unity and involvement. There are expressions like "don't shit on my parade" for good reasons. The discussion you want to have is not stale dated for today.

You raise an issue that is certainly subject to debate. I think I probably partially disagree with you on substance, but that is not the point now. Pick some other day and maybe I will be more inclined to discuss it.

[RandomAccess]

63. You know, Tom

You may have a very good point. Clearly, I don't happen to feel that way, so --

But I have to say when you use the word "unity" like that I have to SMDH. So little interest in that when it comes to subjects that make me feel less than unified. But whatever. I'd just caution a little reluctance to use the term. The calls for unity always seem to be coming from those on the side with all the cards anyway.

[Tom Rinaldo]

65. Yes, "calls for unity" are sometimes used as a weapon against the growth of same

The irony in that can be hard to take. But I know we need more unity anyway, based on mutual respect. Frequently it's a conundrum.

[RandomAccess]

93. Good. I'll look for your calls for unity

in some of those other threads -- you know, the ones where Bernie and his supporters are being unnecessarily baited and trashed.

[Tom Rinaldo]

123. You mean like on the one some might say was started to trash me?

I've done what you ask for at times and will no doubt again. I intentionally keep Bernie's picture as my avatar while trying to write posts that actually contribute something here. I am a Bernie supporter but that is not my sole identify or reason for being here. I think the people you refer to are hanging them selves with their own disunity rope more than anything I can say could further. They want those OPs bumped

[RandomAccess]

134. I have no idea what you're referring to -- should I?

And if you've been someone who has called for unity when the Bernie-trashers are at their full-throated fines, THANK YOU. I only know that sometimes you post some excellent, thoughtful, insightful commentary on other matters.

The people I'm referring to are typically DU stars.

[Tom Rinaldo]

141. Well I will leave you a link to a thread I recently started

"Independents and Our Binary Political System"
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210344678

It was intended as thoughtful commentary on trends I've been thinking about for a long time, and written to avoid pot stirring inflammatory remarks

Here is the last paragraph from it (the "we" referred to in the last sentence refers to Democrats):

"Many of us are upset that an Independent, Bernie Sanders, ran for President as a Democrat challenging a Democrat in the Democratic primaries, before bowing out of the race and reverting to an Independent status once he failed to win the Democratic Party nomination. Many of us were also upset that Ralph Nader and later Jill Stein ran for President in General Elections as a Green – thereby splitting progressive votes when it really counted. We don't want Democrats challenged by third party candidates in November. We don't want Democrats challenged by Independents in Democratic Primaries. We want Independents to all vote Democratic in general elections, for the candidates that Democrats alone get to choose . Yes, we are free to want that and even to argue for that, but we still remain in the minority, one that becomes smaller every day."

No doubt it was a coincidence and not directed against me personally but a few hours later an OP appeared which said in full:

"Anyone you see making our TWO PARTY choice out as NEGATIVE, i.e. more or less stating that while one
party is better than the other they are BOTH a problem, that person is helping the GOP win elections."

On second thought, since that was not what I was saying in my OP, that other one could not have been directed at me.

[RandomAccess]

142. I'm sorry, Tom

I'm missing your point -- completely.

Are you suggesting I either started this thread or that my response(s) to you were singling you out for something??

I recall seeing the thread you referred to and wondered what the hell it was about -- but I didn't see your thread.

I'm lost.

[Tom Rinaldo]

143. No, no, absolutely not. I have no complaint toward you whatsoever

I'm not sure what I said that left that possible impression but it doesn't matter and its probably not worth sorting out the confusion because it simply ain't so. We're cool.

[alarimer]

25. I don't understand how Pelosi became such a lightning rod for the right.

To me, that is the only reason he said that. She seems pretty effective as leader, which is the whole point. Only right-wing Democrats want Pelosi out and as far as I am concerned, they can go to hell.

[RandomAccess]

33. All they have to do is start demonizing and voila! Rightwing lightning rod

[Demsrule86]

137. When will some supposedly on are side stop letting the GOP call the tune...seriously, we need to

pick a speaker based on GOP voters? What? Fuck that. We need a fighter for us.

[RandomAccess]

139. That's the way I feel about it --

In fact, that's yet another response he could have made that would've worked for some:

"The GOP has demonized Pelosi, one of the best Speakers in our history, for years, and while I don't agree with her on everything, I'm not going to let the GOP choose our Speaker for us."

[Demsrule86]

189. They will hate any speaker we choose...and they tolerated a damned child

molester...some of them had to know or suspect what Hastert was up to.

[RandomAccess]

195. Not to mention Roy Moore

Or the self-admitted sexual assaulter himself.

[Demsrule86]

197. Very true...and some only tolerate Trump and voted for him in order to get

judges and further their agenda...seems to be working for them...they got Gorsuch and tax cuts...what did we get get? A big fat nothing.

[Orange Free State]

36. Their kind of politics needs a scapegoat

and they decided she was it. No other reason, and it’s counterproductive to try to apply our rules of logic to people who have none.

[LisaM]

38. She was very effective, and that's their whole problem. n/t

[emulatorloo]

39. +1 on only right-wing house Democrats want Pelosi out

And to me their “reasons” has zero to do with her effectiveness as Dem leader.

It is some sort of lame ass “political” nonsense on their part. She kicks ass.

[Binkie The Clown]

43. Lamb needs to represent HIS constituents.

If HIS constituents feel that way about Pelosi then it is his right and his duty to represent their feelings in Washington, AND in the Democratic Party. And since I'm NOT one of his constituents, what I feel about Pelosi is, and should be, irrelevant to him.

If a Democrat can be elected in a deeply conservative region by running as a "conservative Democrat", then that is exactly what he or she should be doing.

And if the Democratic Party wants to purge "conservative Democrats" then they are cutting off their own noses. To be a national party we NEED conservative Democrats.

[RandomAccess]

48. Notice, that's NOT what I addressed

To repeat myself:

IMPORTANT NOTE: This post is NOT an argument pro or con Pelosi. It's NOT an argument pro or con Lamb and his centrist views. It's about ONE single issue about how he waged/handled his campaign. I think we have to be smarter than that, frankly.

I'm just not comfortable with his stance and the way he handled it as a CAMPAIGN position.

[Binkie The Clown]

58. To repeat myself RE: his campaign.

If a Democrat can be elected in a deeply conservative region by running as a "conservative Democrat", then that is exactly what he or she should be doing.

[Demit]

64. Sorry, I don't understand you. Presumably how he waged his campaign was how he won.

If this issue was part of his campaign, then the stance he took was a contributing factor in his victory.

Are you saying that he should have made a big show of support for Pelosi instead, and doing that would have been "smarter"? How so?

[RandomAccess]

101. No -- here's how he could have handled it

See this post AND my response to it. The two together comprise my preferred approach.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10357361

[Demit]

124. I'm not going in search of your answer, thanks.

You've made a point of quoting yourself repeatedly in this thread. The least you can do is give me the courtesy of a reply to my question HERE. If you can't do that, I'll assume you aren't able to compose one that makes sense.

[RandomAccess]

129. You're kidding, right?

I've never seen ANYTHING more -- ridiculous, frankly. It's too fucking much trouble for you to click on the link? And then see the link UNDER it??

Unbelievable.

So I'll assume you aren't up to the task of handling a decent counter to your argument.

[Demit]

155. Sure. I would if you made one.

For somebody who copies & pastes himself repeatedly, seems you're the lazy one not to do it again.

Besides, I wasn't making a counter argument to your original post. I was asking you to explain yours.

[still_one]

47. His opposition to Pelosi as House Minority or Majority leader is because the right wing ideology

of the district he is in. That district hates Nancy Pelosi, and I believe at least some of this is for political considerations in that district. There are other factors too. Lamb is not against banning assault weapons, and at best would be considered a moderate when compared to Nancy Pelosi.

and this is what some self-identified progressives fail to understand. What one area of the country wants is not always aligned with what another area of the country wants.

Howard Dean's 50 state strategy recognized this, and was why it was so successful

A large percentage of the time an all or nothing strategy gets you nothing

[RandomAccess]

49. Oh, I "understand" it just fine --

I said it's about his CAMPAIGN and how he handled that one issue. I specifically said it wasn't about his centrist views:

IMPORTANT NOTE: This post is NOT an argument pro or con Pelosi. It's NOT an argument pro or con Lamb and his centrist views. It's about ONE single issue about how he waged/handled his campaign. I think we have to be smarter than that, frankly.

[crazycatlady]

53. Pelosi has been a GOP boogie woman

She's a woman from the most liberal city in the most liberal state. Easy to hate for them.

THey've effectively demonized her for almost a decade now. Sadly the attacks work. I've seen mailers where she's portrayed as a puppetmaster.

Conor Lamb disavowing her worked for his district.

[JI7]

54. He doesn't need to be a leader. He is not running for president

[dalton99a]

55. If you let them whack Nancy, they'll demonize someone else for the next round

It's guaranteed

[bearsfootball516]

61. It was his only choice.

Would you rather him embrace her and lose the election?

[dalton99a]

62. I'm fine with Conor Lamb

I'm against forcing Nancy Pelosi to preemptively resign her leadership position.

[RandomAccess]

102. a much better choice:

see this thread - AND my response to it which adds a little more. THAT, to me, is a winning response to the Pelosi problem.

[bearsfootball516]

119. That's a good way of straddling a fine line, but it still embraces her too much.

Crossover Republicans, aka ones who hate Pelosi and voted Trump, but decided to vote for Lamb, could have very well been turned off by that and either stayed home or voted Saccone.

[RandomAccess]

70. Exactly

They'll have every candidate disavowing every Dem leader. It's ridiculous.

[romana]

68. Like any effective Speaker/Minority Leader

Like any effective Speaker/Minority Leader, and Nancy Pelosi is one of the best there has ever been, she knows how to wrangle her entire caucus, including those who need to be moderate to conservative. She will give Lamb the space he needs to do what he's promised, and bring him into the fold when she needs him.

These attacks on Pelosi are interesting, but hardly surprising. Hillary, DiFi, Pelosi. It's our ongoing problem with powerful women, IMO, from the left and right.

The truth is, Ryan and Pelosi are hated. People aren't going to vote for a candidate or not vote for a candidate based on who their House leader is.

[RandomAccess]

71. Well said.

[Me.]

122. Quite

And notice how many women are in Con leadership positions or are Caabinet Secretaries

[Tarheel_Dem]

172. +1. Jonathan Alter, who I usually like, was on his anti-Pelosi high horse last night. The argument

is ridiculous. Whoever leads the party, becomes the boogey-man/woman. That's just the nature of politics. I don't much care if Lamb didn't embrace her, but I don't want to see him, Moulton, or Ryan trying to undermine her leadership.

[Skittles]

80. he beat them at their own game

good for him

[RandomAccess]

103. No, not at all. He surrendered to their game

HERE's a much better approach -- also see my response. Both together comprse the smarter, preferred handling of the Pelosi problem:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10357361

[Skittles]

147. no, he took away their talking point

and maybe he really doesn't care for Pelosi - not everyone is a rabid fan of hers, myself included

[Turbineguy]

82. We're up against the right wing hate machine.

They've had years to fine tune their Pelosi-agitprop. Lamb did not engage that.

[RandomAccess]

88. Right, he capitulated to it.

Surrendered.

[mcar]

84. I imagine he will quickly learn how effective she is

The Rs make her a boogey woman and in his conservative district, I guess he had to say what he did - I guess. There may have been a better way to handle it.

But you are 100% right. It doesn't matter who is in D leadership, the Rs will make her/him the boogey man.

[mcar]

85. I posted this in that other thread

But here's something Lamb maybe could have said:

"Of course my opponent and his wealthy Republican backers are going to try to smear Nancy Pelosi. Although I don't agree with her on every issue, she was one of the most successful Speakers of the House in generations. I find it kind of sad that lame attacks on someone I never even met is all they've got. Me, I'm here to talk about the issues that matter to our district."

[RandomAccess]

90. What ELSE he could have said --

In ADDITION to your language:

I don't know who I'll vote for. I don't know if she'll even be running, or for that matter even be in Congress again. So I don't answer hypotheticals like that.

[mcar]

99. A good addition!

[bearsfootball516]

110. Would have been a good effort, but it wouldn't have worked.

Those crossover Republicans who hate Pelosi would have seen this as embracing her, and stayed home or voted Saccone.

[mcar]

133. Maybe so, maybe not

[Demsrule86]

108. Unimportant, the GOP was trying to paint him as a Nancy Pelosi Democrat...super liberal...

He did what he had to to win in this red district.

[RandomAccess]

112. There was another, BETTER way to handle it --

see this post AND my response to it for the right combination:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10357361

[EffieBlack]

121. I agree with your points but also think it likely

that this was all part of a strategy approved by and coordinated with the DCCC. Lamb wasn’t operating in a vacuum. The Democratic team probably worked this out to give him some of the room he needed.

[MaryMagdaline]

130. Nancy doesn't give a flying fuck what Conor had to do to get elected. We are fighting Nazis here.

Conor's not going to cut off Children's Health Insurance, Obamacare, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, school lunches, food stamps. She will happily welcome Conor Lamb to the House.

[Demsrule86]

136. +++++1000 and if I neglected to welcome you...let me fix that...Welcome.

[MaryMagdaline]

162. Thank you! That's quite a nice welcome!

[Demsrule86]

188. Belated but heartfelt.

[mountain grammy]

157. I'm pretty sure you got that right..

in fact, if it got him votes, she'd tell him to do it. It still made me queasy when he did it, but if it helped I'll live with it.

[MaryMagdaline]

164. Me, too. Unlike Trump, Pelosi knows it's not about her. She's got a job to do for the people

[uponit7771]

165. +1

[Corvo Bianco]

132. I agree. I think the party has bernie-itis where we pretend infighting is as important as

overthrowing fascism (it's not).

[Timewas]

135. first things first

Like any pol ever,he needed to get elected first and foremost. And like any pol ever he can and will change his stance once elected, no telling which way that will go.... campaign speeches and "promises" are mostly BS So whatever he said in order to win counts til it doesn't.

[DFW]

151. He hasn't yet worked with Pelosi. He will.

For some reason, I have seen posts on this thread implying that the House Democrats could ditch Pelosi and go on as a rudder-less ship until near the next election. Obviously some people here have never set foot inside the Capitol and have no clue how our congressional factions work. Both parties have leaders, either majority leaders or minority leaders. There IS no such thing as a rudder-less ship in the House or the Senate. There is always an organized leadership, whether a party has the majority or the minority. In the House, the minority leader usually becomes Speaker if his or her party wins the majority in an election. It's not an ironclad rule. A party can always fight it out after winning the majority of House seats after an election, but on a practical basis, that is a fight that has usually already been decided before an election. They want to be able to hit the ground running on January 2 of the next year.

If someone thinks they will be a better party leader than Pelosi, and can present a compelling argument to back that up, they can always decide to speak up at any time. The RIGHT time, however, is AFTER the Mid-Terms. In districts that lean Republican, guys like Conor Lamb are not wrong to stand up on their own and declare their independence to the national leadership and declare their loyalty to their constituents. After all, Pelosi didn't elect him, the people of PA-18 did.

However, once Lamb is seated in DC, his party leader in the House is the VERY experienced and well-versed Nancy Pelosi. She will help him and give him some pointers on issues and House rules he didn't even know he'd have to confront. If he's smart, he'll be very grateful and learn from her. He can be as dismissive as he wants to be in his district, but while he's in the House in DC, he should (and I think he is smart enough to do it) learn as much from long-term people like Pelosi and Hoyer as he can. Learn the ropes before you start climbing.

[mountain grammy]

158. Exactly!

[RandomAccess]

166. +1

[dlk]

152. Nancy has been Targeted by the Same Misogynistic Trolls as Hillary

It's as much or more about gender than anything substantive. Dems need to stand together.

[RandomAccess]

167. Unfortunately, too true

I actually don't think it's MOSTLY gender, but it's definitely gender too.

[kentuck]

161. It is definitely a matter for discussion.

If he were the only one calling for Nancy to step down, we might think differently? But, there are several, maybe more, that would prefer for her to step down. She has made her place in history. The first woman Speaker ever.

[Sparkly]

176. Bothers me too, but I file it under "LFT"

"Later For That."

(I did just make that up.)

[MaryMagdaline]

206. I am going to steal that. Sorry

[Sparkly]

207. .