There seems to be a recurring argument in several threads which amounts to the insistence

[Atticus]

that impeaching Trump is a stupid waste of time and resources. "Even if", the argument goes "we retake the House and vote out a bill of impeachment, we'd need a 2/3 vote in the Senate to convict and there's no way we'll get 67 Democratic Senators".

We should impeach the son-of-a-bitch because he is an amoral criminal thug and IMPEACHMENT IS THE RIGHT AND JUST THING TO DO!

Are we guaranteed to succeed? Absolutely not, but when did we decide to fight only when success was a "sure thing"?

I agree we will not have 67 Democrats in the Senate. But, IF the "Blue Wave" materializes and we not only take firm control of the House but also clean up in the gubernatorial races AND wind up with 55 Senators, give or take one or two, can anyone state with certainty that we couldn't use the media spotlight of an impeachment trial and the absolutely historic corruption of Trump to peel off a dozen or so Republicans who wanted to be on the right side of history?

I'm sure this post will draw it's share of critics and I knowingly open the door to them: I will not be spending my evening arguing with folks who will never be dissuaded from their "play it safe" approach. But, maybe, just maybe, some intelligent non-snarky discussion could take place.

[Eliot Rosewater]

1. There better not be a single person who calls themselves a democrat or liberal making this argument

Impeachment is a must, anything less is throwing away our democracy.

[msongs]

3. a fine idea and the impeachment clause is very specific -

"The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

[DonViejo]

2. So! Let's have another thread to debate it in! :-(

[Eliot Rosewater]

5. How could there be one on DU in the first fucking place!

I know, without knowing who said it, and I dont, sounds like a KGB operation to me.

OK i see who is making that argument now and why and they are anything but KGB, and they are right as to the math.

Personally I think you must try and impeach no matter the math if for no other reason just to stand up for what is right.

[DonViejo]

8. I think I'd prefer to see the statement and what the Du'ers rationale is for making such a comment

I know there was a thread on the value of Tom Steyer's impeachment commercials but, that's all I've seen today.

[Atticus]

16. I thought I had recast the issue to encourage consideration of some factors which,

to my knowledge, had not been discussed.

I'm sorry you think I failed as I do respect your opinion.

[DonViejo]

19. Thanks for the compliment...

Is there anything in your OP that couldn't have been written in the existing threads you're lamenting?

[Atticus]

22. No, but then it would have been seen by the poster I responded to plus

maybe a dozen people, depending on how far down thread it appeared. I actually considered posting it as a response, but thought it was worth its own thread.

[DonViejo]

51. I fully understand, Atticus, and admire your courage...

You know, sometimes it's just better to roll your eyes and walk away though, e.g. at discussions that Trump must be impeached NOW, immediately, yesterday, if not sooner.

[wasupaloopa]

4. No other President deserves impeachment like trump. If he isn't impeached congress is damaged

beyond repair.

[brush]

47. Yes, we have to get it on the historical record that Democrats impeached his ass. If the repugs...

in the Senate fail to convict that will be on record too.

[shanny]

6. Do you want the shitgibbon tweeting

about how he was completely exonerated? 'Cause he will, and that is how it will appear to the general public (let alone Trump TV viewers), if he is not convicted by the craven Rs in the Senate. That's my problem with impeachment.

[loyalsister]

9. Agreed

It would hand him a monumental victory. Even worse, what he did would be dismissed as a non-issue if it were deemed not worthy of conviction.

[Atticus]

20. I do understand your concern, but if we simply "accept" this corrupt,

criminal, illegitimate "shitgibbon" as our POTUS, what happens next? Would having an unchallenged maniac in the White House be better that one who had gone thru a bruising impeachment trial? I agree with you about him claiming exoneration, but is that worse than him chanting "witch hunt", "investigate the Democrats" and "no collusion".

He's mentally ill and morally bankrupt and it is true he may do something terrible. But, that is true whether or not he is impeached.

Thanks for your response.

[brush]

48. And if we don't impeach he'll do the same thing. I say impeach his ass asap for the historical...

record if nothing else. History will know that Democrats stood up for the good of the country.

The historical record will also show whether or not the repugs convicted his corrupt ass.

[poboy2]

7. Let justice be done though the heavens fall.

[trof]

10. Senate repugs would have to go on record

voting AGAINST conviction of a president who the majority of citizens/voters know is undeniably guilty of "high crimes...etc."

Elections matter.

[pnwmom]

11. The only posts like that I've seen are from people who think we should wait till January '19,

when we are likely to have a majority in the House and Senate.

If we impeach in November, they can rush an impeachment through and fail to convict in the Senate -- and it would be much harder for us to start over again with a new Congress than if we'd just waited the two months to impeach.

[EffieBlack]

12. My concern about impeaching Trump:

He gets impeached, as he well deserves. We all feel really good.

Pence becomes President. Much (not all but a lot) of the country are relieved as hell. They'll see Pence as a calm grownup. They are so relieved that they don't realize or care that Pence is carrying on exactly the same policies that Trump did except he's not batshit crazy. Pence runs in 2020 as a steady hand. Trumpsters aren't happy that their guy was booted out but say there's no way in hell they're voting Democratic, so they support him. Republicans who were disgusted by Trump are delighted to vote for a non-Trump Republican. And Democrats are either so burnt out from doing their victory dance or are certain that the problem has been solved because Trump is gone that we don't get out enough votes to beat Pence.

And we'll get four years of President Pence, which would be a complete national disaster and possibly even worse than Trump.

We need to be very careful what we wish for - and must be very sure we consider all of the possibilities before they play out so we can avoid any unintended consequences.

[Atticus]

23. This is the best analogy I've read for the Trump/Pence quandary:

You are driving to a hospital for a chemotherapy session for your Class IV cancer. A car runs a light, t-boning you on the driver's door. When your head clears, you see that bright red blood is spurting from your neck and you've already painted the front seat red.

You have a very serious cancer, yes. But you and the EMTs will concentrate on and treat the spurting artery and, for the time being, ignore the cancer. The cancer must be dealt with, but later---after the emergency is addressed.

Trump is the bleeder. Pence is the cancer.

[EffieBlack]

34. Thats a great analogy

But I see it more as a serious infection that, left untreated, will prove fatal but with the right medical management, will likely run its course. But if doctors treat it too aggressively, there’s a substantial chance that the infection will spread, cause chronic and irreversible organ failure and eventual death.

Trump = the infection
Pence = organ failure/death
Congress = medical management

I think that, instead of focusing on impeachment right now - regardless how warranted it is - our priority should be on winnng back the House and/or the Senate. If we don’t, impeachment won’t ever be a possibility since the Republican majority is not gong to touch him, Trump will remain in office and could win re-election. (Re-election may sound far-fetched, but so did his nomination and election, so ...). And even if impeachment is successful, a President Pence could have the disastrous consequences I described. But if we take back even one chamber, a Democratic majority will have the ability to block much of his bad legislation, conduct investigations and oversight, and generally put him in check.

Regardless, this is a nucking fess with few good good short-term options. I just hope we survive it.

[Atticus]

40. Thank you for your thoughtful response. I agree that our focus right now must

be GOTV for the midterms and retaking Congress.

[EffieBlack]

44. :-)

[Augiedog]

33. Impeachment does not equal conviction. Impeachment is like indictment. Senate trial is next

[EffieBlack]

37. I know - Im using the term broadly to include impeachment and conviction

[GulfCoast66]

13. Annnddd...another litmus test I must pass to be a real member of the Democratic Party

Impeachment with no chance of conviction would not just be a mistake but the worse fucking mistake we could make.

1. He would still be president
2. His base would regain all the excitement they are in the process of losing. Right now they still like him, but all the first time and seldom voters who are not excited would come back out of the wood work.
3. We would be seen as feckless and incompetent. Look up congressman Bill McCallum and what an impeachment attempt did to him.
4. It would be a win for him
5. It would eat up the entire congressional term preventing us from doing anything else and correctly labeling us a do nothing Congress. This is huge. Much better to send up popular bill after popular bill only to have the Senate or tRump killing them.
6. He would still be fucking President!!


Politics is not about ‘right’ and ‘wrong. The republicans think they are as right as we are. And they think we are as fucked up as much as we think they are. Politics is about using power to accomplish your goals. As much as I hate the SOB, sticking it to him is not top of my list. Making life better for Americans by adopting Democratic policies is my top goal. Doing the first prevents the second.

The advantages may, and I stress may, be switching our way in a big way. If we play our cards correctly GenX(me), the Mellenials and Gen Z may move left for the rest of our lives. If after retaking congress the first thing we do is throw the nation into a partisan fight to rival all, then perhaps we are not mature enough to govern.

But it would make some here feel sooo good and fuck the consequences.


Y’all have a nice evening.

PS...if conviction looks likely then torch the SOB!

[Atticus]

24. I have no idea where you got that "litmus test" mentioned in your title. Certainly

not from my post.

But, I do agree that you should not waste any of your time working to impeach Trump because your first sentence shows you have already been defeated.

"Impeachment with no chance of conviction"? Yeah, that's what I was talking about, right?

My OP voiced a hope for some non-snarky discussion, but I knew there would be those who would be either unable or unwilling to resist. That's on you.

Y'all have a nice evening, too

[GulfCoast66]

28. Ok. So my litmus test comment was more aimed at other responders...

I apologize for that posting faux pas.

But that aside, you chose to not respond to my reasoning. Your choice.

But disagreement does not equal snarky. I layed our multiple points that argue against your proposition.

You have yet to refute them in any substantial way.

Which of my arguments lack validity?

I am more than happy to admit I am mistaken. But need evidence to convince me.

I like to debate on DU. My post did not insult anyone but layed out my argument. Please make yours.

[EffieBlack]

35. Hear, hear!

[Takket]

14. impeachment is a must

there is nothing to even talk about here.

you don't let a russian agent run your country.

[poboy2]

21. I mean, really. Simple as that.

you don't let a russian agent run your country.

[DonaldsRump]

15. If Trump's crimes/abuse of power are demonstrated by evidence, he WILL be impeached and convicted.

I don't think in 1974 there were 67 Democratic senators. However, by the summer of 1974, enough Republicans would have voted to convict Nixon. There might have been 90-95 senators who would have likely voted to convict Nixon when he resigned, which is why he resigned.

It takes time and evidence. If Mr. Mueller (God bless you, Sir! And that is not facetious) and his team come up with real evidence of Trump's involvement in a crime/abuse of power, I think there are enough Republican senators who have a modicum of decency still left to vote to convict.

IMHO, of course....

[hexola]

17. I'll settle for a Clinton outcome - Lame Donald Duck!

Still cheering for shackles though!

[3Hotdogs]

18. What we want and what is possible are two different things.

He might, by a far stretch of the imagination, get impeached.

Convicted? Senate Repubs are too worried about their base to vote to convict.

A N.Y. state conviction is more likely if evidence surfaces that he committed a state crime.

[Stinky The Clown]

25. I agree with your position

[Atticus]

29. Thank you. nt

[OhNo-Really]

26. most hope he's going straight to jail perhaps

[guillaumeb]

27. Recommended and agreed.

President Obama declined to pursue legal avenues against Bush and Cheney for their various lies and crimes. A major mistake, in my view.

At this point, only one Party shows any respect for the law, and it is not the GOP. By NOT taking action, the Democrats would be normalizing the treason.

Again, recommended.

[Atticus]

30. Thank you. nt

[radius777]

49. Agree, Dems must regain the respect

of the American voter by showing that the party will stand and fight when it sees injustice - which means impeaching Trump even if it means a failure to convict in the Senate.

Impeachment hearings would allow the public to beter understand truth about Trump and the GOP, while placing the Dems on the correct side of history.

[guillaumeb]

52. Well argued.

If we ignore the conduct, we validate the conduct.

[LonePirate]

31. If you want him impeached, better hope the public doesn't take his side like they did with Clinton.

Clinton emerged from his impeachment more popular than he was before it. Granted, the situations are completely different so there is that to consider. Still, do not underestimate the typical American's ability to wrap themselves in the flag and support a president who claims he is under attack by Congress.

I'm not saying impeach him nor am I saying do not impeach him. Simply think about the reasons why or why not.

[Nevernose]

32. I think we are more likely to have a Blue Wave

If Democratic candidates focus on issues that affect people’s lives. “Donald Trump is a dangerous moron” — while 100% accurate — is not the thing that will energize many voters. Issues that are not “Russia is bad” will.

Anyone pissed off about Trump will already be voting against him and his stupid political party.

Even if he dropped dead tomorrow, we’d just get President Pence, who might actually be worse than Mango Unchained. The geriatric Eminem might have the guts to actually try and deliver on the lunacy.

[EffieBlack]

36. +1000

[Hekate]

38. Since when, indeed. Thanks Atticus. nt

[Atticus]

42. You are entirely welcome. Glad we agree. nt

[meadowlander]

39. + 1 gazillion

When we witness treason and don't speak out against it we become complicit. We feed the narrative that there is no difference between the two parties, that nothing will ever get done, that getting engaged in politics is a waste of time.

People want to vote for a party that is going to fight for what is right, not do what is temporarily politically expedient at the expense of bringing actual criminals and traitors to justice.

[Atticus]

43. Thanks. I agree with your entire post. nt

[radius777]

50. Best post of thread. "no difference" narrative is cancerous

especially amongst young people and marginalized groups - which comprise much of the Dem base.

Before the election Bill Maher tried in vain to calll out the 'danger of false equivalency' and how it was Repubs only path to victory.

But it is hard to blame such people when they saw Dems do nothing to hold Bush and Wall St accountable, and are doing very little now to hold Trump accountable.

As I stated above, this is about respect, about showing the public that Dems as a party are willing to stand and fight for what is right.

[Awsi Dooger]

41. I can state with certainty that a dozen Republicans wouldn't defect

Get rid of the first digit and I'll state with certainty that two wouldn't defect.

I'll also state with certainty that we won't have 55 senators or anything approaching that number.

I'm not sure the OP grasps the odds associated with any of this. You've got old scared hateful white men in those positions. They want unrestrained guns of any description and they want unchecked Koch money aiding their cause. They aren't going to care what Trump did or what Mueller found. They would prefer to remove health care from 20+ million Americans and allow a portion of them to die as a result than any concern about Russia.

It's not the same world. That's the reason Trump's approval rating is an unimaginable 40% instead of 4%. You can't apply any semblance of character or honesty or soul to anyone in a meaningful position on the other side. Even if some of them have the instincts to do it they know they'll be plowed out of office, which is why so many of them speak up only after they've announced plans to retire.

The midterm electorate is also flooded with old white people who vote dependably. Meanwhile our single women and young voters stay home in shameful percentage. That is not going to change, not in percentage to allow anything resembling the GOP midterm waves of 1994 and 2010 and 2014. Our upside is maybe 30 seats while theirs is 70+. Obviously Citizens United plays a huge role.

I remember decades ago hearing a fantastic description of Playboy magazine. A wife looked at her husband and compared Playboy to National Geographic: "It's full of great pictures of nice places you'll never visit."

To some similarity every time I turn on Rachel Maddow it's a very impressive smirk-filled detail of outrageous events that will never lead to anything.

[Atticus]

45. "with certainty", eh? OK. nt