No, Monica, you (& Bill) were not alone. I & we were there, too, "#MeToo" as it were

[UTUSN]

Two things I don't have to prove, what a good Democratic believer on nearly all the laundry list of issues and on Equality for all (here, specifically, on supporting women - I could go on & on about the strong women in my family and the women candidates I have supported) - I am.

You and Bill BOTH rocked my world in a very bad, PTSD way. I blamed you BOTH, but despite what you went through my quandary was not being socially allowed to blame you for your part while having to defend Bill at the cost of channeling all my political energy into HIM while giving up the work on our Democratic agenda. I would have liked to throw a crystal ashtray at both your heads.

I still have carved in my sight your right palm taking the oath to testify while the journalist voiceover called you a child who was beyond responsibility despite your legal adulthood.

After all the years, I came around to letting Bill go, my being freed from having to support him and his crappy behavior and choices. As I say, since we were prohibited from criticizing you, I had long ago let you go. But in the years when you have resurfaced, I haven't gotten a vibe of your taking your share of responsibility, although I haven't paid much attention.

I will add my own little vignette from the same era: How I was a supervisor in my late 40s and a 24 year old I had hired came on to me repeatedly and I shut it down, such that I was no Bill. Within 3 or so years she not only replaced me in my job but became the top administrator (my superiors weren't so principled about handling her advances). I never made an issue of her career machinations any more than I did about your love and admiration.

But I am deeply invested in not buying into your #MeToo incarnation, any more than all the PTSD all of us were forced into by you and Bill for your short term jollies. Leave me alone.

**********QUOTE********

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/02/monica-lewinsky-in-the-age-of-metoo

MONICA LEWINSKY: EMERGING FROM “THE HOUSE OF GASLIGHT” IN THE AGE OF #METOO
BY MONICA LEWINSKY

MARCH 2018

.... A student of Karma, I found myself seizing the moment. Whereas a decade ago I would have turned and fled the restaurant at the prospect of being in the same place as this man, many years of personal-counseling work (both trauma-specific and spiritual) had led me to a place where I now embrace opportunities to move into spaces that allow me to break out of old patterns of retreat or denial. ....

And the 20th anniversary of an annus horribilis that would almost end Clinton’s presidency, consume the nation’s attention, and alter the course of my life. ....

...a person who has been gaslighted.

To be blunt I was diagnosed several years ago with post-traumatic stress disorder, mainly from the ordeal of having been publicly outed and ostracized back then. ....

"I'm so sorry you were so alone.” Those seven words undid me. They were written in a recent private exchange I had with one of the brave women leading the #MeToo movement. ....

...I am unpacking and reprocessing what happened to me. Over and over and over again. ....

*********UNQUOTE**********

[still_one]

1. Lewinsky is the last person who should speak about the #metoo movement.

Which is pretty much what I read the OP is saying

[UTUSN]

2. Thank you, but I fully expect to be lambasted. & I still have CLINTON-KAINE bumpersticker on my car.

[3Hotdogs]

3. Didn't she once remark that she expected Bill to divorce Hillary and marry her?

So much for Meee2.

[still_one]

10. I am proud to have voted for Hillary and Tim

[R B Garr]

4. Exactly. Bad decisions and getting your hopes up

about a married man leaving his wife is not what the #MeToo movement is about.

[jrthin]

5. I saw that piece and just wandered if she

has forgotten what she wrote in her journal, what she told her friend when she knew she'd be working at the WH, i.e., I am going to bring my knee pads. Nothing of the #metoo movement follows her self told stories years ago. She just needs to go away.

[lunatica]

7. I always think of that when she pops in to do whatever it is thinks shes doing

Don’t forget she kept the blue dress and somehow never washed or had it cleaned. Who does that!? Really! Who does that and why do they do it?

To me it was nothing more than two adults misbehaving. Ken Starr is more villainous to me.

[jrthin]

17. I ask your same questions. And I fully agree with

your points made.

[csziggy]

20. Wasn't her 'friend' Linda Tripp, whose agent was a Republican operative?

Lucianne Goldberg

In 1970, Goldberg and her friend Jeannie Sakol founded an organization called the "Pussycat League" to oppose the women's liberation movement,[11] and in 1971 she and Sakol published Purr Baby Purr, a critique of feminism.[13][14]

During the 1972 presidential campaign, she joined the press corps covering Democratic candidate George McGovern claiming to be a reporter for the Women's News Service, though she was on leave of absence from that position.[12] In fact Goldberg was being paid $1000 a week – $5850 in today’s dollars – to spy on McGovern and those traveling with him on the campaign’s planes.[11][12] When recruited, she was told U.S. President Nixon himself had approved the spying, which was to include traditional political intelligence and information on personal habits: "'They were looking for really dirty stuff,' [she] said. 'Who was sleeping with whom, what the secret service men were doing with the stewardesses, who was smoking pot on the plane – that sort of thing. I was told to send it all along.'"[12] Goldberg's role as a reporter-spy came to light in the Watergate hearings that led to the resignation of Nixon.

<SNIP>

In the early 1990s Goldberg promoted a conspiracy theory book about the suicide death of Clinton White House aide, Vincent Foster, and several books dealing with Clinton's purported sexual infidelities including one by Arkansas State Troopers who alleged they had procured women to have sex with then-Governor Clinton.[5][19][20] None of the Clinton-themed books were ever published.[5][19] Goldberg was also the agent for former detective Mark Fuhrman's bestselling account of the O.J. Simpson trial, Murder in Brentwood.

<SNIP>

Goldberg met Linda Tripp in 1993 or 1994 while working on the proposal for the book on the death of Clinton aide Vince Foster.[5][19] The two women became friends, and in 1997 Goldberg advised Tripp to secretly record former White House intern, Monica Lewinsky, talking about her sexual relationship with President Bill Clinton.[8] Goldberg mistakenly advised Tripp that it was legal to record phone conversations in Maryland without the consent of the other party.[21]

More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucianne_Goldberg

[radical noodle]

6. We have to always face facts

There are women who consent gladly to have sex with men who are older, their bosses, or other authority figures. They are drawn to the power or they may simply fall in love. Consensual sex, no matter with whom, is just that. It's a little like the "Second Virginity" theory where high school girls who have had sex can say that any previous sexual activity doesn't matter so they're virgins again. It may sound like a good idea but certainly avoids reality.

[pnwmom]

8. She did more than consent. She initiated it, according to her own account.

And now she's looking for more attention. Again.

[radical noodle]

29. Oh for sure!

He could have/should have said no but that still doesn't make a #metoo moment for Monica. She's trying to change history.

[arthritisR_US]

54. Excellent point, TY!

[pnwmom]

9. The only person who mistreated her was the prosecutor who threatened her with 27 years in prison

if she didn't cooperate, and who threatened her family members, too. I'm sure she WAS traumatized by that, but that wasn't Bill's fault.

I blame Bill for what he did to Hillary -- but not for responding to Monica's advances, and not for failing to realize that the "power imbalance" may have made her enthusiastic participation less than fully consensual. The concept of power imbalances negating consent didn't exist back then. Then, the term was "got lucky."

[karynnj]

24. The concept of inbalances of power did exist -- and most corporations had personal guidelines even

in the 1980s that made it clear that such relations were problematic. They existed -- even if they likely were often violated.

[R B Garr]

33. She should have been fired for flashing her panties

in the workplace. How’s that for a power imbalance.

[pnwmom]

36. "Problematic" didn't mean "banned." And there was nothing problematic

about Lewinsky's enthusiastic fling with Clinton except for what it must have done to Hillary, and the fact that it left Clinton open to Starr's attacks.

[karynnj]

40. It was against company policy and could be the basis for firing someone

Obviously, these very boring mandatory sessions on company policy did not have the strength of the me too movement. However, it was "banned" as much as a company bans anything.

Read the comments in the Senate record before the vote to remove Clinton. EVERY Democratic Senator who spoke condemned Clinton's actions -- then explained why they did not reach the level of high crimes and misdemeanors - which is not defined in the Constitution. If Clinton were unmarried, the comments would very likely have been the same in all but a few cases.

I have no problem agreeing with the Democratic Senators who argued that it everything done - and they list things such as lying under oath, coaching a witness (Betty Currie), obstructing justice - did not reach the level of high crimes and misdemeanors. I do not agree that he did nothing wrong or that he only wronged his wife.

[pnwmom]

42. At your company. Not most companies. The Lewinsky episode brought a sea change

to attitudes everywhere.

Read the articles of impeachment. Clinton wasn't impeached for having sex. He was impeached for lying about sex, under the guise that oral sex didn't constitute "sexual relations."

And the Senate did NOT convict him.

From Gallup:

http://news.gallup.com/poll/221216/concerns-sexual-harassment-higher-1998.aspx?g_source=Politics&g_medium=lead&g_campaign=tiles

Attitudes Have Flipped About Sensitivity to Sexual Harassment Problem

Since 1998, Americans' opinions about people's level of sensitivity to the problem of sexual harassment have completely reversed. The majority of U.S. adults (59%) now say people in the workplace are not sensitive enough to this type of harassment, whereas in 1998 the majority (53%) said people were too sensitive.

Women are more skeptical than men about workplace harassment being taken seriously. Currently, 63% of women and 54% of men say people are not sensitive enough to the problem. However, both figures are up more than 20 percentage points since 1998.

[PdxSean]

11. I dont get the Monica hate.

The article is well written. Lewinsky acknowledges her own moral lapse re the consensual sex with a married man while recognizing that Clinton had a higher duty duty to the power imbalance.

Lewinsky clearly states that during the scandal she only felt victimized by Cinton’s prosecutors, media, and right-wingers, all of which turned so viciously against her after she refused to pull a Paula Corbin Jones.

Hindsight is 20/20, but even with her journal entries and comments to friends about using sex as a professional ladder, she could have easily played victim and argued that what began as consensual sex later became non-consensual (because she feared losing her job, feared ostracism, etc.). Had Lewinsky been willing to play sexual victim, Clinton would more likely have been impeached.

[Demsrule86]

13. They had sex...it was a bad decision for both of them...but hardly rape. She was an unpaid intern.

If you make a bad decision and regret having sex with someone...it is not a me too moment and if you claim it is, you hurt women who have been assaulted like me. They don't even process rape kits in quite a few states...so where does this lead? Bill Clinton was a good president. And I don't give a damn about his personal life.

[PdxSean]

22. At no point does Lewinsky even hint at equating her sexual experience with rape.

What she did say is that the power imbalance was an issue. This is the very reason sex between college professors and students is prohibited. Yes, otherwise consensual sex can be prohibited based solely on the power imbalance. Lewinsky is making the same statement regarding her own experiences.

[Demsrule86]

30. She wasn't an employee...and in some business such relationships are forbidden and are

fireable offenses...this does not fall under that category for a number of reasons. Plus the thing about her is she saved the dress...there was some reason she did this...yes I know Linda Tripp advised her to do so...but there is more to it...tired of those attacking a good Democratic president over this.

[pnwmom]

34. So she's equating it to sexual harassment -- even though she was the initiator. The power imbalance

might have mattered if HE had come on to her, though there was little societal understanding of "power imbalances" affecting consent twenty years ago.

But he didn't use his power to go after her. She went after him. And she wasn't a helpless baby.

(The 1990's was a different era. Professors and grad students the age of Monica often had relationships that were considered consensual, and few talked about "power imbalances.&quot

[pnwmom]

37. She's trivializing the MeToo movement. It has nothing to do with her.

I was okay with her before, but she is making herself out now to have been the victim of both Ken Starr AND of Bill Clinton. No, she wasn't.

Me, too is not about women who lift up their dresses to show their butt in their thong underwear, and brag to their friends about plans to have sex with the President.

[still_one]

52. Bill Clinton was impeached for your information. Lewinsky has as much credibility to speak to the

#metoo movement, as David Duke has to the Civil Rights movement.

She is an opportunist cashing in on her self-imposed fame, and serves as a distraction from the abuse, bulling, and sexism that millions of women have experienced in all areas of our country.

[retread]

12. I see DU's fearless band of slut shamers are out in force this morning. n/t

[UTUSN]

18. I made clear my "slut shaming" was equally bestowed on Bill. Both oblivious to OUR well being.

I spent a traumatic chunk of the '90s conflicted by defending Bill as my outstanding Democratic leader while being personally repulsed by his behavior, and also being told by media and Repukes that Monica was an innocent child who could not be held responsible because we were accused of what is now called slut-shaming, while it was said we accused her of stalker shaming.

The biggest lesson for me was that when we invest everything we've got into defending ONE charismatic leader who has a lot of personal baggage, we do so at the expense of channeling AWAY our political energy from our Democratic AGENDA.

It's a really THOUGHTless, lazy allegation to dismiss what trauma these two people put us through by calling us "slut shamers."

[UTUSN]

19. Self-deleted, duplicate post.

[pnwmom]

38. Truthfully saying that a woman initiated a sexual encounter is NOT slut shaming.

Women are as entitled as men to invite another person to have sex and to be enthusiastic about it.

But such a woman can hardly claim to have been sexually harassed or a part of the Metoo movement.

(On the other hand, they were both purposefully hurting Hillary in an adulterous relationship, and I will criticize them for that.)

[leftynyc]

44. How is pointing out

she wasn't an innocent victim of the fuck me or you're fired variety - or any variety - slut shaming? She slept with a man she knew was married AND went to D.C. with that goal in mind. What would you like us to call her?

[betsuni]

14. Monica had a relationship with a married man before she set her sights on Clinton.

One time, okay, she was young. A second time, nope.

[milestogo]

15. She showed Bill Clinton her thong underwear in the oval office.

[ryan_cats]

16. Are you kidding me?

Are you kidding me?

The commentators are essentially saying that she asked for it. Poor Bill Clinton could not resist her wily charms?

Imagine the same howling from the same people if it were about Trump.

Bad behavior is bad behavior.

[CTyankee]

21. I agree. I would add that Clinton was the most powerful man in the world and could have refused

her advances. He could have instructed his aides to deny her access to him. His decision not to gave the republicans a stick to beat us liberal Dems with. We had to go through a good deal of pain and shame because he didn't exercise control over his behavior. Yeah, I know if he got impeached and convicted we would have had Gore as president. Still, his behavior caused a lot of harm to our party.

[pnwmom]

39. You must not remember, but Presidents having affairs had ALWAYS been afforded

a zone of privacy in the past. The media just winked to themselves and no one ever made an issue of it.

Everything changed with Bill Clinton. I'm sure if he had known the kind of consequences that could ensue, he wouldn't have gotten involved with her. But never in US history was a President made to account for his extra marital activities. That was a first.

[EffieBlack]

48. Funny thing -

Clinton lied about it to protect himself and her. Back in the day, it was considered very cadish for a man (especially a married one) to publicly reveal that he had slept with a woman since such an admission could destroy the woman and cause all kinds of problems for the man. And, until Ken Starr, presidents simply denied their affairs and that was the end of it. The women kept their reputations and the men kept their appearances.

So, I always thought it was amusing that people jumped all over Clinton because he tried to keep an affair secret since that had theretofore been the "gentlemanly" thing to do.

[pnwmom]

50. And I'm sure he also didn't want to hurt Hillary more than he already had.

The whole situation was deeply hurtful, in terms of their marriage, and publicly humiliating.

[EffieBlack]

47. They both made terrible choices

But the operative word is "choice." As I said below, every bad choice is not predation or victimization. Sometimes people just do stupid sh#t that ends up having bad consequences and that they regret later.

[pnwmom]

31. She did ask for it. In her interviews she said repeatedly that she was the one who initiated it.

Bill behaved as badly as any married man having an affair. But that had never been grounds for an impeachment in US history.

[RhodeIslandOne]

45. She told friends she was going to have sex with Clinton before she started her job

That is NOT (often) what happens to the thousands of women harrassed by their employers every day.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a woman who would do the same re:Trump, but I would not consider her a “victim”.

Period. End of story.

[leftynyc]

46. She flashed her thong at him

How is that NOT asking for it? Did Bill FORCE her? Did he threaten her job if she didn't? Calling this sexual harassment just diminishes those of us who have actually been victims of it.

[NCTraveler]

23. I have zero issues with Lewinsky.

And appreciate a lot of what she has done since that time. It's not an easy world out there, folks.

[UTUSN]

25. 'tain't an easy world for anybody but she participated with Bill

in spreading the unease to many, many - and the two of them had optons NOT to. His power and her youthful ignorance are not excuses for the selfishness.

[NCTraveler]

26. I didn't make her out to be a deity. nt.

[DonCoquixote]

27. about Bill and Monica

Monica, you were seeking celebrity, and got it , far more than 15 minutes, whereas many of the actress in the metoo movement, as powerful as they were, knew that Weinstein or others could smash them.

Bill, I still think Hillary should have been president, and probably would have become a better one than you. Granted, Donna Brazille and you helped ruin that, just as you helped ruin it in 2008. In an age of trump, I no longer have to carry your water, especially as your mistakes and ego did damage and gave the enemy, who you always felt more comfortable with than many of your voters, is using.

[UTUSN]

51. "don't have to carry (Bill's ) water" - nailed, or anybody's who's a selfish f-up!1

[lapucelle]

28. I read the VF story. My take was that Monica Lewinsky sees herself,

her family, Hillary, and Chelsea as Ken Starr's victims. Her me too moment appears to be about the abuse she suffered at the hands of Judge Starr and his cohorts.

[pnwmom]

32. I thought it was about Ken Starr at first, but by the end

I thought she was blaming Clinton, too.

[Blue_Tires]

35. kick

[leftynyc]

41. How many of those in the me too movement

flashed their thongs at the man they're accusing of sexually harassing them? How many told their pals they were packing their kneepads for their job at the white house. Sorry, Monica - you were just young and stupid, not harassed and I have zero sympathy for any woman who sleeps with another woman's husband.

[EffieBlack]

43. I'm a huge champion of my sisters and am all about #MeToo

And I have a lot of empathy for Monica Lewinsky as I see her as someone who made some mistakes but didn't deserve what she got in return.

But I don't see her as a victim. She was a grown woman who made choices - bad ones, but they were hers.

This doesn't let Bill Clinton off the hook. He behaved terribly. But all bad behavior is not necessarily predatory, just as every bad choice a woman makes about how to conduct her sex life doesn't make her a victim.

[pnwmom]

49. And to put this all into perspective: Bill Clinton not the first President to fool around.

Just the first to be swept up into an investigation about a real estate deal that turned into an Inspector Javert-style four-year pursuit.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/01/25/us/president-under-fire-history-14-presidents-have-been-talk-pillow.html

In the sexual history of the American Presidency, the list of Chief Executives who have had their bedroom conduct, mores and good judgment questioned, rightly or wrongly, in office or not, includes not just Clinton, Washington, Arthur, Roosevelt and Kennedy but also Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, Cleveland, Wilson, Harding, Eisenhower, Lyndon Johnson and Bush.

Purported wrongdoing ranges from having a serious sexual relationship outside of marriage (Washington, Lincoln, Wilson and Roosevelt) to fathering a child out of wedlock (Jefferson and Cleveland) to having one or more extramarital affairs (Harding, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Bush and Clinton).

Although Arthur was a widower, he was nevertheless criticized when it appeared that he might have a mistress. Jackson was accused of marrying a woman before her divorce from her first husband was legally complete.

[OhioBlue]

53. I appreciate her article in VF.

I see Monica in a much different light than many in this thread. She owned her agency and participation in the affair. She expressed regret. She has been marked with the biggest scarlet letter of anyone in our lifetime. She can never escape it.

Why do we expect that someone at 17 and 364 days is a child and at 18 they suddenly become "adult" and automatically held to another standard? Can't we acknowledge that maturity is an evolution? At 22, her life experiences as an adult were limited to 4 years. Yes, she made a mistake and poor choices at the time. There was indeed a huge power differential though with a man in his late 40s and the most powerful person in the world. IMO - Bill Clinton owns this. He had the maturity and worldly knowledge to be in a position to refuse her advances. HE was our elected leader and the responsibility lays with him. If she had a relationship with any other man, we would never have known about it.

She has suffered public humiliation on a level that none of us can imagine for stupid things that we did in our 20s. Granted, none of us participated in an extramarital affair with a POTUS, but still, on the scale of relative humiliation and isolation, I doubt most of us can really relate.

She never lowered herself to Roger Stone's "Rape panel" during the Hillary campaign. She never injected herself into it. IMO - she has conducted herself with more class, reflection and agency than any of Bill's other affairs.

She does deserve her #metoo moment for the simple fact that most of the public pilloried and punch lined her so much that it made her less that human. Bill did survive the impeachment and has gone on to see his public approval as a President in the affirmative. The affair is a footnote in his life, but a descriptor in hers.

[arthritisR_US]

55. Unfortunately, his wife has paid the price.

[Gabi Hayes]

57. Zero credibility. She knew LONG in advance what she wanted

http://articles.latimes.com/1998/jan/28/news/mn-13032

PORTLAND, Ore. — A high school drama teacher who said he had a five-year affair with Monica S. Lewinsky said Tuesday that the former White House intern boasted of having oral sex with a "high-ranking person in the White House" and phoned him up to five times a day with news of her adventures.

Andy Bleiler, who presented the details of his years with Lewinsky through his attorney, said there was no indication of who Lewinsky was referring to, although his wife said that when Lewinsky first left for Washington, she vowed "to get my presidential kneepads."

Using age/immaturity as a rationale for defending this crass opportunist in a case where the “victim” BRAGGED about her plans is faulty logic at best, meretricious ar worst.

Those who who put the onus on WJC (who clearly acted in an unconscionable manner) for this fiasco would do well to get out their copies of The Hunting of the President and revisit the carefully coordinated attack on him by, uh, the VRWC, which was MUCH more responsible for Trump than the Russians

[Hekate]

56. Yes, Monica, we are still talking about you-you-you. Unfortunately, some of us remember...

...all too many details all too well. You were an adult. You committed some things to writing -- and told girlfriends of your plans before you left for your plum position at the White House.

Foolish middle aged man. Foolish young woman. And boy, did we all pay a price.

The real travesty occurred when the VRWC got its chance. That was the real "rape" if you will -- that was the real abuse of power. And I am genuinely prepared to believe that Monica has PTSD, but if she is honest she will blame it on Ken Starr, Newt Gingrich, and the rest of those philandering scum in the GOP Congress.

Monica, please go back to your therapist.