The School Cop...who didn't charge into the Chaos.?

[busterbrown]

Last edited Fri Feb 23, 2018, 03:08 PM - Edit history (1)

Is taking way too much crap.. As he approaches his retirement, I'm sure that when he signed up
for the job years and years ago as a SCHOOL POLICEMAN, I'm sure he didn't think he would be responsible for stalking down a Crazed Killer who was armed with an AR 15 and firing at anything he saw moving.

This School cop, signed up to handle students who were mis-behaving and looking out for non students who were entering a building they didn't belong in..

A far cry from the horrific shooting event....

This guy should be left alone...You can imagine how horrible he will feel for the rest of his life.

[BigmanPigman]

1. I definitely understand his point of view and this explains his actions.

[brush]

121. There was a post yesterday with the test video of a person armed in classroom...

Last edited Fri Feb 23, 2018, 07:25 PM - Edit history (1)

and a "gunman" barges in shouting "I told you I'd be back" and then shoots the lecturer.

Everyone in the class thinks it's real.

The armed person (unaware his/her gun is armed with fake bullets)... there were a few test scenarios with different "armed people", either freezes and does nothing, fumbles with the gun and can't get it out of the holster, stands up with the gun, or takes cover but doesn't bet off a shot.

They all get shot by the gunman actor multiple times with real sounding paint cartridges.

What happened in Florida is a good lesson for the country and a black eye for the NRA and gun humpers. When even a trained officer freezes how the hell do they think a teacher with a gun is going to react?

But I still think the officer could've maybe, knowing the school well, at least found a seldom used entrance, taken cover and waited to catch the gunman off guard. I mean he is a trained officer right?

[treestar]

138. Yes, everyone should see that

I saw it. As a practical matter, the people who think they are safe because they have a gun are not anyway.

[turnitup]

198. omg

what would you have done if someone shot him?

[brush]

233. I don't understand your question.

[RandomAccess]

243. This one, probably

It's dynamite.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210278701

[ProfessorGAC]

2. Yeah, I'm Good With That

He should not be held personally in contempt. It does blow up the "good guy with a gun" narrative though.

[Baitball Blogger]

10. And I suspect the cop was outgunned.

Now we know why they want to arm their school cops with AK47s -- to match the fire power.

[ProfessorGAC]

16. He Had A Handgun

I think we would all agree he was outgunned.

[MichMary]

23. So he was armed better than anyone else there,

EXCEPT the shooter.

[malaise]

65. Bangs head

Yeh right.

[MichMary]

68. Yeah. Right. n/t

[malaise]

70. He was no match for that weapon of war n/t

[Straw Man]

76. Then he needed a better weapon.

Or at least some sense of responsibility for the safety of those he was sworn to protect.

[MichMary]

85. +1 n/t

[Blue_true]

104. Give them tanks!!!! Good enough? nt

[Straw Man]

140. No. Absolutely inappropriate for the situation.

But you knew that.

[LanternWaste]

110. And you may want to move away from the creative fiction of movies

And you may want to move away from the creative fiction of movies, heroes, happy-endings and second-guesses.

Or at least some sense of reality in a situation you know far too little of to render any valid judgement. But I imagine you'll rationalize your empty placement of values as something other than what it is.

[Straw Man]

145. What fiction?

It's not fiction to suggest that it's desirable for a defender to be as well-armed as an attacker. But if that's not possible, any defensive weapon is better than no defensive weapon.

[MichMary]

83. Have you seen

Lee-Lee's post below. She knows because she has been a LEO. Apparently, at close range the difference in weapons wasn't as important as you might think.

[Old Vet]

182. He knew damned well if he went barrelling down a hallway with a 9mm against a unknown....

number of well armed people he would of been killed period. He had to many reasons to stay alive, I can tell you when I first received fire from the enemy in Vietnam I froze big time. It just didn't seem real at first, I remember my corporal saying I was useless until I stopped thinking about living another day. I don't think of this cop as a coward, He was guilty of wanting to live. I didn't become a good warrior until I realized that each day could be my last, At the age of 17 is when I became a man.

[Straw Man]

79. Look at it this way.

There is an armed shooter outside your door. You have a gun. Your partner has a fire extinguisher. Which one of you is better equipped to confront that shooter?

[malaise]

81. Or put simpler

Which one of you is a better sitting target

[Straw Man]

84. Easy.

Which one of you is a better sitting target

The one who isn't shooting back. The one with the gun should engage. The other one gets to run away.

[global1]

11. Is That Why Trump & The NRA Coming Down So Hard On Him?.....

They had a good guy with a gun present and that wasn't the solution. It weakens their argument of that talking point.

This poor guy was outgunned.

[Straw Man]

74. Because he failed to do his job.

They had a good guy with a gun present and that wasn't the solution. It weakens their argument of that talking point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "good guy with a gun" scenario presupposes that the good guy will actually DO something -- not hunker down outside until it all blows over. Outgunned, whatever. The people inside were defenseless; the "cop" at least had a fighting chance of stopping the guy, a chance he chose not to take.

If he wasn't prepared to engage the threat and protect the kids, then he shouldn't have been there. Time to retire.

[Lithos]

100. I think you're failing the point here

The whole point of a "good guy with a gun" is pure Hollywood.

If you've never seen "the Elephant" - ie, actually been under fire, you will never know how to react. Even for trained people, freezing, hesitation, and poor judgement are one of the most common reactions.

This is also why arming teachers who will never receive any training is so dangerous. Trained people make enough mistakes.

[Straw Man]

101. Actually, not at all.

This is also why arming teachers who will never receive any training is so dangerous. Trained people make enough mistakes.

Who ever suggested that untrained people should be armed? Not I, nor anyone I've heard.

[Honeycombe8]

129. That's what I just said in my post below, not having read yours.

He didn't do his job. He was law enforcement, and armed, and charged with the job of protecting the kids. If he couldn't do it, he should've taken another job, so they could get someone who would do this one.

Sure, he was outgunned. So were the kids.

[Chemisse]

178. No single cop is going to charge in there and take on an active shooter.

It's stupid and sure to get him killed. It doesn't help the kids to have yet another dead body on the floor. It's also against police procedure.

Even a whole group of cops would not go in except in a tank!

[Honeycombe8]

215. The Sheriff says otherwise. That was his JOB.

I think the Sheriff knows a little bit about what the protocol is and what the guard should have done.

He'll probably have to move.

[RobinA]

150. That Man

was security theater. In what school shooting that we know of could a lone guy with a hand gun have made much of a difference except by some dumb luck and a few magic bullets?

Plus, the majority of people, including law enforcement, must be trained repeatedly and ongoing, to not freeze in a life threatening situation like this. Very few people, including those trained, will run into fire.

[SCantiGOP]

172. School resource officers

are there to deal with unruly students. They are not supposed to be confronting heavily armed attackers.

[pazzyanne]

164. I think you should take a gun safety class as in the video.

Talk is easy, actions, not so much. Have you ever heard of a new hunter getting "buck fever"? And that deer is not going to shoot back. And just to clarify, I come from a hunting family, have hunted, and have observed a person in the middle of "buck fever" where you just freeze up. Talk all you want, but you will not convince this person of the complete validity of your argument.

[Straw Man]

222. That video is the furthest thing from a "gun safety class."

I have taken many of them.

[mythology]

220. But do we know what his training was?

From what I understand the historic protocol has been to wait for backup in an active shooter situation and go in with numbers. This cop was older and near retirement. What was the actual department policy and what was he trained for? Likewise did he receive instructions st the time to wait for backup? The department seems happy to throw him under the bus, but what of the many calls they got about Cruz? Those officers are on restricted duty, not suspended.

I don't think we have enough information to know if he failed to react or if he reacted as his training and/or instructions told him to.

[Straw Man]

223. No, we don't.

From what I understand the historic protocol has been to wait for backup in an active shooter situation and go in with numbers.

That was pre-Columbine. That's when the rules of engagement changed.

This cop was older and near retirement.

Then the fact that he was assigned to the school shows what a low priority school safety actually is.

The department seems happy to throw him under the bus, but what of the many calls they got about Cruz?

I agree that they dropped the ball too.

[Politicub]

143. Yes - because his story runs counter to the NRA narrative

about how more guns will equal fewer school shootings.

Here's a man, trained in the use of firearms, who did not stop the shooter. In light of that, it seems ridiculous that Trump and the NRA advocate arming teachers.

And, he's a human being. It's sick how he's being singled out as a coward. The real chicken is president Bone Spurs. Trump is the prime example of a bully coward.

[Always Right]

253. Why is this guy getting a pass? Aren't police the ones who are supposed to protect us?

For those who want to take guns away from law abiding citizens and leave them defenseless, what would tell someone who says that if the police can't or won't protect you, you should be denied the ability to protect yourself.

[Politicub]

254. Guns are not magic wands

You have no idea what would have happened had the policeman - one man against another one holding an AR-15 - charged in.

This is not Harry Potter. Just because someone has a gun, it doesn’t give them magical powers to stop someone else with a gun.

Weapons like AR-15s need to be banned. There is no place for them in modern society, except for the military. It’s absurd that someone can plunk down their ID and credit card and get a gun from Walmart like an AR-15.

[Always Right]

257. Cops don't have xray vision

How could the cop hiding outside possibly have known what weapon the killer had?

The AR15 is a look alike of a military weapon and is no deadlier as well as functionally the same as most guns.

Back when the last assault weapon ban was passed, the rallying cry was ban the AK 47 because that is what the media pushed. Now it's the AR15.

P.S. Walmart doesn't sell the AR15

[Politicub]

258. Gun mart then?

Who cares about Walmart. The hair-splitting game with gun details is over.

[Always Right]

259. When drafting laws, details matter

Your original premise is that it is understandable that this coward valued his live over those he was sworn and paid to protect and that he must have had xray vision to know the killer had an AR-15, which is some instant death ray and way worse than any other gun.

I show how you were factually wrong about everything you said and apparently when faced with facts, you call them hair-splitting gun details.

This guy should feel terrible that not only did he let people's children die while he cowered outside, but those same people will be paying his pension while he lives out his golden years. I did the math and based on receiving 75% of his highest years salary, which is over $100k a year, he is going to be collecting upwards of $6,000 a month. I happen to live in Broward, know people involved, including one student who was in the building hiding during the shooting and I'm outraged as to what that guy did. If he wasn't up to the job, he should have quit or moved to a desk job and let someone else guard the kids.

To properly craft a law, it is important to know the terminology and "hair splitting" gun details, otherwise you just get lumped into those who want to ban everything.

There can be no middle ground or compromise until you learn the terminology and understand that most of the gun control proposals over reach or don't actually achieve what they propose.

For example, banning 10 round magazines may sound reasonable and is often said with we don't want your guns. What about out of production guns for which no 10 round magazines exist? Banning over 10 round magazines for those guns effectively ban those guns. As they are out of production, there likely won't be any new 10 round magazines designed as the cost would be prohibitive.

[Politicub]

262. I am not crafting a law

I am not a representative nor a lawyer. And you shaming me using my limited knowledge of the intricacies of guns will not shut me up.

And, honestly, I don't care about finding middle ground. That is for others to decide. I am a concerned citizen that is tired of hearing about school shootings and people dying every day. I think it's a failing of law that someone can buy a gun like an AR-15 that is made for the shredding of flesh.

As for your last paragraph, it sounds good to me. In your words, "Banning over 10 round magazine for those guns effectively ban those guns." Good. Ban them. Buy them back. Melt them into plowshares.

[Always Right]

263. How is asking you to speak intelligently using proper terms, trying to shut you up?

Nobody is expecting you to be an expert on gun laws or gun terminology but it is hard to take your opinions seriously if you repeatedly say in accurate things and suggest laws that are already in place but failed.

I'm glad to see that you aren't in the we want regulation, not a ban group as you just stated "Good. Ban them."

Aren't all guns used for shredding flesh? Just because the media has repeatedly lied about the AR-15 being somehow more deadly than other guns, doesn't make it true.

Prior to the last AWB, the AK-47 was the bad rifle and the AR-15 was rarely mentioned.

Isn't it possible that these school shooters, seeking fame but lacking gun knowledge use the AR-15 because the media has promoted it as this death ray?

What happens when you get your AR-15 ban but the next school shooting happens and the killer uses an actual high powered rifle, rather than an AR-15, which is just about the lowest powered rifle made (despite what most people think), and the body count is even higher because an actual high powered rifle would have nearly all killed and few merely wounded?

I don't want anyone killed or wounded, which is why I'd focus my efforts on the killer and not the tool. There were so many failures at all levels that didn't flag this guy and put him in a nut house. That is the real solution.

[Chemisse]

181. Exactly. The love the pipe dream of the 'good guy with a gun'.

Except it would rarely work AND it places unrealistic expectations on the 'good guys.'

[forgotmylogin]

126. As a defacto security monitor, I'd rather him direct escaping victims

to get people out of there more efficiently than charge in and be another casualty.

But all of this would be solved if it couldn't happen in the first place, especially the "outgunned" part.

[Honeycombe8]

130. He wasn't a security guard. He was armed law enforcement.

His job was to protect the kids, with firepower if need be. He didn't even try.

Yes, he was outgunned. But so were the kids. And he didn't even try. Who knows...entering after the fact might have given him the opportunity to shoot the shooter in the back down the hall. We'll never know because he stayed where it was safe. He left his post even before the killing was over.

[treestar]

142. why try when there is no chance you will

end up killing the gunman with the AR15?

[Honeycombe8]

151. There WAS a chance. We'll never know how much, because he didn't even try.

He didn't even stick his head inside to see where the guy was. Possible the shooter was walking down the hall, and guard could've shot him in the back. We'll never know that. But we DO know he made sure to stay where he was safe, while he listened to kids being blown apart.

If he couldn't do the job, he should've taken a building security job, where you just check IDs, and are not armed. So they could get someone who would at least do his/her best to protect the students.

He certainly had something the teachers & students didn't have: Law enforcement training, and a gun.

[forgotmylogin]

234. I would hope the training

would let him make the decision whether he's outgunned. Potentially incrementing the body count without backup doesn't sound like a good idea.

I don't know the whole story, but it sounds like this guy was incapable of handling what was thrown at him. If he left the scene before backup arrived and before things were secure, that's bad.

Hey, here's a thought, what if there were some legal precedent that made sure a single officer first on scene didn't need to make the call to go toe-to-toe solo with a perp armed with a high-capacity, rapid-fire cannon?

[Honeycombe8]

238. The shooter was killing multiple innocent kids and adults. No question. He had to go in.

Yu don't barge into a situation where he's not killing anyone yet...but he could hear the blasts and the screams. Urgent action was needed...something. Or at least check out the situation. He stayed where it was safe.

He wasn't a passerby. That was his job. Bad time to let everyone know he couldn't do the job.

It's possible he could have saved a couple of people. And that's a fact. It was POSSIBLE. But he didn't try.

That's just how I think about what he did. The Sheriff stated that was his job...he should have gone in.

Yeah, he was outgunned. But maybe the shooter would have been in the hall walking in the opposite direction, giving the guard an opportunity to shoot him in the back. We'll never know.

[forgotmylogin]

239. Monday Morning Quarterbacking.

Sure. All that could have happened. What if, what if, what if?

There was no way for this one man, singlehandedly through any sort of magic, training, or heroism, to stop the school shooting in progress. He should not be scapegoated.

You're using the "good guy with a gun" argument the Rs are so fond of.

[Honeycombe8]

240. No, not Monday quarterbacking. That was his JOB.

So says the Sheriff. He should have gone in. He was the only one there with a weapon! And he was trained and hired to protect the students. DUH.

As for "what ifs," I'm responding to the claims that "he would have been killed," or it would have been useless, and he was so outgunned that it was pointless.

I pointed out a couple of scenarios that would have been possible...to show that the claims as stated above would not necessarily have happened.

[forgotmylogin]

241. You won't bring these children and teachers back with your outrage.

It would be better directed at changing laws and supporting law enforcement proactively.

Scapegoating and punishing this officer doesn't help. It just sets the precedent that the police are expected to run in, guns blazing, like it's a video game, without waiting for backup and without any leeway to assess the situation. I personally don't want police who fear for their lives shooting indiscriminately in a crowd, much less a school.

We're at a stalemate, so there's no point continuing this argument.

[Honeycombe8]

242. Don't be condescending. I am being factual.

What I've stated are the facts and what I think of those facts. No outrage. But I'm not giving the officer a pass because he might have gotten killed or hurt. He took the job on. His decision. He failed at it, and didn't even try to help just one kid not get killed.

Your outrage is better directed at the other things that went wrong about this incident. I am focused on all of them. They all played a part. Errors everywhere. Including the armed security guard who was a trained law enforcement person hired to protect the students.

He failed, law enforcement offices failed, the FBI failed....failures everywhere.

No point in continuing this discussion. I'm not arguing. I'm simply explaining what the security guard did wrong, according to the Sheriff, and which I agree with.

[Corgigal]

152. He would have been slaughtered

If he opened the door and the gunman was in the hall. The light would have filtered in , then cop. He may have had on a vest, but he didn't have on riot/swat gear.

One cop couldn't save those kids, not sure if 2 or 3 could. Needed a swat team, and they take a while to respond.

These hero fantasies got to stop. One cop, or armed teachers won't solve this problem.

We've got to stop weapons of war. No other way.

[Honeycombe8]

154. A lot of assumptions there. We'll have to agree to disagree.

He'll have to move and maybe change his name. And deal with how he'll ever be able to sleep well at night.

[Corgigal]

158. Not really

I'm from that background. I know how they respond to a barricaded subject. It's the same response. Need more then one person, need head gear. Lots of training go into that, well at large agencies, because you need overwhelming force to make the shooter or hostage taker change gears.

Then we need 4 or 5 people at every school, with swat gear and rifles. No handguns.

[Honeycombe8]

212. Yes, indeed. "There would have been light from the crack in the door"...

and things like that. It was light inside already. You don't know where the shooter was, but we do know he was traveling, going from room to room. You said he would have been killed. Maybe. But you don't know that. That would be based on a number of factors.

All supposition. He didn't even try. Shameful. He let unarmed teachers try to protect students, while he stayed safely outside.

I don't know how he'll ever sleep at night again.

[Corgigal]

221. Unarmed teachers were trapped

Behind doors, possibly walls that ar bullets slide through.

Cop would have died. I'm not trying, I'm telling you about mass casualties response.

[Straw Man]

224. Barricaded subject?

I know how they respond to a barricaded subject. It's the same response.

Not the same at all. A barricaded subject isn't going anywhere. Even if he has hostages, he's not a threat to the public at large. He has a secure and defensible position that would make any attack by a single, lightly armed officer futile.

The active shooter situation is completely different, and the appropriate protocol is rapid deployment. That's how it has been since Columbine.

[LiberalFighter]

203. And a lot of assumptions on your part.

[Honeycombe8]

210. Actually, no. I'm going by pure facts.

1. He was armed.
2. He was trained law enforcement.
3. He took a job to protect students.
4. He heard the shots.
5. He stood outside & called it in to law enforcement.
6. He stayed outside and did not try to check anything out inside.
7. He could hear the students being torn apart by the AR gunfire.
8. That is all he did.
9. That is contrary to law enforcement training.
10. The Sheriff said it sickened him, that he should have gone in.

Based on the facts, I think he didn't do his job. It's shameful what he did. He stood in safety outside while unarmed teachers tried to protect the students.

Others are making assumptions on what he would have found or what would have happened. I do not. All I know is that he didn't do his job. If he was the sort who couldn't do the job, he should have taken a different kind of security job, where he isn't armed, so that the school could have hired someone else.

[forgotmylogin]

235. I admit that I don't know the training...

but I wouldn't be surprised if "purposely running into a gunfight without backup" is strongly discouraged, especially with absolutely no knowledge of the situation. He doesn't know if there's one shooter or several. Just like a lot of us don't agree with "scared" cops shooting first and asking questions later. Expecting police to charge in solo superman mode is a movie convention that I don't think we can expect of real life.

It's a different matter if he'd gotten a glimpse of a shooter and had any modicum of understanding what he was looking for.

[Denis 11]

247. No one does their job today.

People today go through the motions, take the pay check, disappear when it's crunch time.

[ProfessorGAC]

213. Absolutely!

High volume guns are the answer to a question nobody asked. Except for soldiers, i can't understand why anybody needs one.

[RhodeIslandOne]

3. How many more threads on this are we going to have?

Just asking....

[busterbrown]

6. most of them were extremely critical of the guy..

And since I was work most of the day yesterday.. i wasn't aware of the Number of threads.
Didn't know that I should have investigated numbers..before posting....Just Saying

[RhodeIslandOne]

8. Ive seen at least two or three on the first page....

....today saying cut the guy some slack. Turns out running up against an AR-15 with your handgun might not be a fair fight.

[malaise]

55. So? n/t

[Squinch]

73. Hmmmmm.....

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10278392

[RhodeIslandOne]

96. Man Im like potato chip to you

Can’t just have one.

[CozyMystery]

4. I agree.

[leftyladyfrommo]

5. I don't think I would have run right into the middle of all that myself.

It is hard for me to really blame him. I think I would have just frozen in my tracks if I saw something like that coming down.

I can't blame an older man with a pistol he probably hasn't fired in years for not running in to confront that awful situation.

[PJMcK]

12. If he hasn't fired his weapon in years, he shouldn't be carrying it

I'm not a gun user but I know how serious these devices are. Anyone who carries a weapon should be constantly training with it. Guns are machined tools that need continual care and cleaning to be effective.

Personally, I don't have a position on what this man should have done during the school shooting but weapons training is an on-going education.

[leftyladyfrommo]

18. For all I know he went to target practice once a week.

But I think most of those guys who are security guards really aren't trained to the same level active police are. Their job a lot of the time is to walk around and keep an eye on things. If anything serious is going down they call for help.

Obviously, one poor guy wasn't going to be a match for what was going on at that school.

But I had a police officer tell me that many conceal carry people are a lot better with guns than the police are.

It was just such an incredibly awful situation and it happened so fast that even a swat team would not have been able to do much.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

36. Outside of specialized officers like SWAT members

Police firearms training is very basic and nearly non existent after they graduate from the academy. Most departments only require annual qualifications where maybe 50 rounds are expended.

[GulfCoast66]

38. He is a deputy sheriff so I am sure he shoots often

But realize many cops go through their entire career without firing the handgun at a person.

And doing a lot of shooting does not prepare you for a fight with a military type weapon. I dare say even soldiers would hesitate to charge a battle rifle with a handgun

[treestar]

146. Like the old western gun fight

but in those everyone had more or less the same gun and everyone had one.

That gunfight was just suicide for the guy with the handgun.

[Blue_true]

107. I thought police officers were supposed to do periodic certification on guns? nt

[USALiberal]

112. 90% of cops NEVER fire their weapon at a person in their lifetime! Nt

[samnsara]

67. i cant blame him either...

...so does this mean if all the ppl in the school are armed that everyone who DIDNT fire at the bad guy would be ostracized? How about all those 'armed' teachers of the future..so they would get fired if they didnt try to shoot???

[Hoyt]

69. He might not have seen anything, only heard shots. Hence not sure you rush in

gunz ablaze when you don’t know where gunner is, how many they are, where students are, whether gunner set a bomb, etc.

Now, if he knew all, or most of those things, it might be different.

[MichMary]

7. So, what was the gun for?

Was he supposed to use it to fire at "misbehaving" students? Or non-students entering a building that they didn't belong in?

Yeah, he was out-gunned, but then, so was the security guard who saved a couple of lives while sacrificing his own by throwing himself over a couple of students.

The COP was trained on confronting an armed bad guy and protecting lives. Post-Columbine, the protocol for an active shooting situation changed from setting up a perimeter to actually attempting to save lives during such situations.

He didn't do it. No sympathy from me.

[busterbrown]

14. So easy to say.."If I were there" n/t

[pintobean]

131. The guys with balls and no guns

who were there were killed, while the cop with a gun waited outside. They don't get to say "I was there".

[Honeycombe8]

132. I didn't take a job as armed law enforcement to protect kids.

If he couldn't do the job, he needed to take another job, so they could get someone who would do this one. He didn't even try. He stayed where it was safe and listened to kids being blown apart.

His name is mud.

[Shipwack]

160. +1000 nt

Nt

[pazzyanne]

180. So easy to judge isn't it?

We need to get back to the real issue, that being an AR 15 in the hands of a teenager who legally bought it. That is the first step to solving this horrible problem in my opinion.

[FSogol]

15. Yaaa Gunz! He should have shot the AR15 out of the shooter's hands. That's what I would have done!

[MichMary]

19. He should have done something

Instead he stood outside and probably peed his pants. His job was to protect the kids, teachers, and staff. If he wasn't going to at least try he shouldn't have been there.

Wouldn't it be nice to collect a paycheck while not doing your job?

[FSogol]

21. Too bad you weren't there to fix everything.

[MichMary]

26. I'm not trained

as a cop, or in firearm usage.

Maybe having an armed cop there who was trusted to protect lives gave school officials a (false) sense of security, which is why there weren't other security measures, like metal detectors, backpack searches, ID card scanners, or whatever.

[mac56]

34. Big talk.

[FSogol]

35. The real world isn't like a tv show or a video game. Cops don't spend their time in shoot outs

with bad guys. They show up after everything has gone down. They end up comforting people after everyone is shot or hurt or robbed and looking for shell cases in the gutter. They spend their time sitting around and doing paperwork.

But sure, keep coming up with gun excuses.

[MichMary]

40. Okay. So maybe

there is no reason for cops to be armed. Since they only sit around and do paperwork. And eat doughnuts.

[FSogol]

41. Yeah, only gun nutz and scared special snowflakes should be armed? Pathetic.

[MichMary]

48. I'm not the one who thinks

copsdon't do anything except say, "There, there" after everything has happened. And then do paperwork.

[treestar]

161. They actually aren't intended to prevent things

Which is nearly impossible. You can't control other humans that much, especially the desperate and psychotic ones.

There was a case in Philly where a cop went into a situation and got killed, just like that. He walked in on a robbery. They are part of the landscape.

You could walk around with a gun and get killed just as easily, too, if you walk into the wrong situation.

[boston bean]

47. Cops have a gun to protect themselves from loonies and criminal with guns.

They are not nor should they be expected to be target hamburger for a nut who got his lead
Machine legally.

[MichMary]

52. Cops have guns only for self-defense.

Okay.

[boston bean]

62. And to keep the peace.

[treestar]

163. Yes, they don't have them to save the world

People watch too many movies.

[treestar]

159. They are armed to deal with normal criminals

Everyday criminals. Who want to get away from cops.

We need more than cops if guns are going to be the solution for this type of thing. It's like trying to stop terrorists. There is no logic to the people who do these things and they don't care if they die, too.

[pangaia]

92. Maybe you should go meet him and tell him that..to his face..

See what he says...

[MichMary]

94. Since he is behind locked doors

with SIX cops guarding him, I doubt that's even possible.

Hope for his sake that those guys are more willing to protect his life than he was to protect the students'. Just sayin'.

[pangaia]

95. "Just sayin,' is one of the most overused and obvious put downs here..

Just sayin..

[MichMary]

105. Sorry I annoyed you

[SMC22307]

249. No, you're not. And your Dana Loesch shtick ain't gonna fly on DU.

Just sayin'.

[pangaia]

89. ++++

[oasis]

58. In the Congressional Baseball game, 3 Capitol police were out gunned

by the shooter, yet they performed admirably, and prevailed. They were credited for saving lives and received honors for doing so.

The armed officer at the school massacre did not rise to the occasion and must live with the consequences.

[busterbrown]

226. R.U. stating Con. Baseball game presented the same

challenges as the School Slaughter? Guard was dealing with an AR-15 killer the Hallways, kids screaming, running... bullets ricocheting all over the place.

R.U. conflating this incident with the Cong. Baseball Game?

[oasis]

246. Capitol police faced superior fire power but did not shrink from

doing their best to protect their charges from harm.

It's about stepping up and doing what you signed up for. Some do, some don't.

[obamanut2012]

147. No security guards died at Parkland

[MichMary]

153. Aaron Feis

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/us/football-coach-florida-school-shooting-trnd/index.html

(CNN)Football coach Aaron Feis threw himself in front of students as bullets hailed down Wednesday at his alma mater, Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida.

It would become perhaps the final act undertaken by the assistant coach and security guard, who suffered a gunshot wound and died after he was rushed into surgery, according to the school's football program and its spokeswoman, Denise Lehtio.

[pnwmom]

189. Not for massacres. For ordinary, run of the mill, thugs. Preferably unarmed. n/t

[MichMary]

206. Ordinary, run of the mill, thugs

Thug: Hand over your lunch money, kid!

School Resource Officer: *BANG!!!*

Problem solved.

[Fullduplexxx]

9. No excuse

[mopinko]

13. rly? did he sleep through

columbine, newtown, etc?
then he should have woken up. that is why he had a gun, not to shoot kids who were "misbehaving".

[onecaliberal]

32. There were armed guards at Columbine too.

[MichMary]

66. The school resource officer (cop)

did exchange fire with Eric Harris outside the building. If he had hit him, probably eleven lives would have been saved.

He at least tried.

[samir.g]

80. active shooting policy changed drastically after Columbine

from "wait for backup" to "immediate intervention".

Most of these shooters fold immediately at the first sign of armed resistance.

[Mariana]

102. Yeah, it was pretty bad at Columbine.

All those cops cowering outside while people bled to death, and the Chief saying their number one goal during the incident was to "minimize police casualties".

[malaise]

17. +1,000

Worked there well over 30 years

Maybe they'll ban the assault rifles when enough folks refuse to commit suicide by murderer.

[busterbrown]

20. Amazing that so many state...

.. That the guard was a coward... Easy to say..

[malaise]

24. As they say

talk is cheap. He too has a wife and family and knew he was no match for an AR-15.

Sadly he too was mentally destroyed last Wednesday - more than likely dead if he did and permanently damaged as he didn't.

[Old Vet]

186. At this point malaise the cop should be put on suicide watch, Can you even begin to imagine.........

How this cop is living with himself now?

[malaise]

219. When you're a vet you understand

but he's alive so that's something.

[Dave Starsky]

22. He's got soul, but he's not a soldier.

Pretty funny that they gave him a gun and 76K a year to basically serve as a prop. They could have just dressed up a department store manniquin in a cop outfit and have it stand in the front lobby.

Can't say I really blame him, though. That is about the most terrifying situation imaginable.

[MichMary]

44. $76,000/year to do

nothing??? How do I get a job like that?

[Dave Starsky]

51. Yup.

I get bored extremely easily, but even I wouldn't mind a gig like that for that kind of dough. Probably has a great benefits package, too.

[treestar]

199. It suggests there is more to the gig than you are thinking, though

[Dave Starsky]

205. I suppose.

I'm sure he also made sure that there was no smoking of weed in the back parking lot.

[treestar]

166. I don't think we really know what his duties were

a lot of knee jerking going on.

[WhiteTara]

25. And they want teachers to do what a school policeman won't.

The "people" who think that schools are to coexist with guns are simply animals on two legs to me.

[bluestarone]

27. nice to try to blame some lone person when all the whole system FAILED

BUNCH OF HYPOCRITES they all are!!!!!! six shooter against AR-15 shooter with full vest for protection. Yea he would have lasted 1/2 second! Give the guy a break! If they trained him like they do security in other places God forbid! He was there for one purpose, and that was somebody to put the blame on!

[busterbrown]

28. Good Point...! n/t

[sarge43]

120. Thank you. n/t

[Honeycombe8]

134. There was a whole system failure, INCLUDING this guy who failed utterly to do his job.

He didn't even try. He stayed where it was safe (not even for the whole time), while he listened to kids being blown apart. He didn't even stick his head inside to see if he could get a shot at the guy from the back. Coward. It's okay to be a coward...but don't take a job that requires firepower protection and bravery.

He wasn't armed to protect himself from misbehaving students in that suburban school.

[vlyons]

29. I don't blame the school cop.

He probably wasn't wearing a bullet-proof vest. And he probably knew that his revolver only had 9 bullets and was no match against as assault weapon. I think he acted quite rationally.

[cynatnite]

31. Untrained and unarmed students and teachers did a hell of a lot more than he did. n/t

[Lee-Lee]

53. Did you time warp from the 1970s?

Not wearing a vest? Revolver?

I don’t know any professional police agency that allows officers to not wear vests anymore, nor do I know any that Cary revolvers.

[cynatnite]

30. Sorry, I don't understand...

That's his job. I hope he loses a hell of a lot of sleep. At least he gets to see his family every day.

I do get that cops are human and are allowed human failings, but if your job is to run to the gunfire and that's what your trained to do, then do it. He's a veteran law enforcement officer.

I have these expectations of everyone in law enforcement who straps on a weapon every day and trains for this kind of scenario. We all should.

He's not some young guy who's only been a cop for a few years. That I could almost give a pass. But no, not this.

[busterbrown]

37. Very Easy to say...

A handgun vs an AR-15.?

Very Easy to say "I would have"..

I don't think safety cops signed up for a gun battle with a lunatic armed with an AR 15..

[Lee-Lee]

49. At close range inside the weapons are not that mismatched

If they were in an open area outside 200 feet apart the AR has the upper hand.

Inside a building? It’s all about who can hit who first and not what the gun is, and in some ways the pistol has an advantage of being easier to maneuver inside.

[cynatnite]

57. Yep...

I've got two cousins who are retired cops and they will tell you their training was about reaction time and aim.

[cynatnite]

54. He has the same training that's required of every cop in that state. It's a requirement...

I never said "I would have".

He failed to do his job which he was trained for.

There were untrained and unarmed students and teachers who did a hell of a lot more than he did.

That asshole stood outside while that motherfucker slaughtered students and teachers.

I won't treat him like a civilian and give him a free pass.

[treestar]

167. How do you know what his job was?

We don't have the slightest detail.

[cynatnite]

168. The news said what his job was and Sheriff Israel even talked about him. n/t

[treestar]

169. What is the list of his duties

the job manual - what does it say?

[cynatnite]

171. Seriously?

He's a trained law enforcement officer and you don't know????

They have to have the same exact training that the rest do. He specifically works for the sheriff's department as a law enforcement officer and he is licensed and trained to carry a gun.

How hard is this to understand?

[treestar]

173. Really?

Have you never read job descriptions? How do you think it is that simple? You just use your common knowledge to determine another's duties in another job in another part of the country?

You likely have not got the slightest idea what he was required to do in this situation. Just enjoying judging someone I guess.

[cynatnite]

176. I'm not the one that's giving a trained and experienced police officer a free pass...

Kids and teachers died. Could he have saved any of them had he engaged the shooter or even saw students to safety? We'll never know because he stayed OUTSIDE during the massacre.

What I do know is that there were unarmed and untrained students and teachers who did a hell of a lot more than that mutherfucker did. Some of them even died as a result.

There is a 15-year-old kid in the hospital who was shot FIVE times protecting his fellow students.

Yes, I am passing judgment and I have no problem doing it.

[pazzyanne]

185. Consider this

It took 6 minutes to do the damage. It is a very big building. By the time the law enforcement officer got there, the major part of the damage was done. And the shooter was not standing in one place waiting to be found. Logic has flown from this discussion. I repeat, it is so easy to judge others.

[cynatnite]

209. It's the cop's job to go find the shooter and confront him...

This shouldn't even have to be stated.

It's pretty fucking bad when it's unarmed and untrained students and teachers who are doing the life-saving while a cop sits outside and does nothing.

Make all the excuses you want. He failed at his job. We expect it out of doctors, nurses, fire department and other first responders. Why does this one guy get a free pass?

I've been a first responder. I could be criminally charged if I was negligent or refused to do my job like this guy.

[pazzyanne]

211. Easy to judge without all the facts.

[cynatnite]

216. It's also easy if you've never experienced life and death situations...

I have. Hesitation means someone could die.

He's an experienced cop who chose to sit outside while students and teachers were massacred.

We'll never know if going inside would have saved anyone or if he could have taken out the shooter.

What we do know is that unarmed and untrained students and teachers did his job for him.

A 15-year-old kid is laid up in the hospital with five bullet holes because he saved his classmates. That child his a hero.

I'll take Sheriff Israel's words: Sheriff Scott Israel said Deputy Scot Peterson should have “went in. Addressed the killer. Killed the killer.” Video footage showed Peterson did none of that, Israel said.

[busterbrown]

187. Everyone calling this cop a coward..

Tough guys I guess.. Talk is cheap.. I wonder if they were in his position facing a gun which has magazines which can hold up to 100 bullets at the same time hearing people screaming and running all over the place.. Yea they would have stepped right up..

[treestar]

194. Yeah I'm wondering if they would

I would guess too that there was some manual protocol for this event, rare, but it does happen and schools might have plans for what to do, especially for this guy, and it might have been more important to try to get kids out of the school and he was supposed to do that or call the cops or something else. We don't know what part of the school he was in, how he found out about it, how far he was from the shooter, etc.

[rickford66]

33. As an ex-student, the shooter knew there was an armed cop at the school.

It didn't deter him, did it? And, in this case, the shooter wasn't suicidal since he ran away.

[Adrahil]

39. Nope.

I get he was afraid. But that’s his job. We’ll never know if he could have saved lives, because he never even tried. He will feel bad. He should.

As a fire fighter, I was once aftaid to enter a fully involved building. I did it anyway because we believed people were in there.

[busterbrown]

42. Have experience with fire dept..

Very Dangerous? Extremely? Comparing it to the AR-15 shooter? No.

[Adrahil]

46. Then dont become a cop?

WTF was he there for if he was just gonna listen as kids were murdered... FFS...

[FSogol]

43. In your fire fighter example were you all alone? n/t

[Adrahil]

50. Doesnt matter.

Dude took on a job. People probably died because he refused to do it.

There is no shame in being afraid. There is shame in not doing your job when the time comes. Sorry... not gonna change my mind in this.

[FSogol]

59. It does matter. You had support and the tools to do the job. He didn't n/t

[Adrahil]

64. BS.

He was armed. The kids in that school were sitting ducks. He failed in his duty.

[treestar]

201. He should have been armed with an automatic weapon, however

Since these days, we know the school shooter could have one.

[procon]

165. It's a relevant question because no firefighter would rush into a burning

building without backup. That's the standing policy for our police dept as well, and with good reason.

[NewDem17]

75. Cops aren't required to protect

Anyone.

Cops have no requirement to protect you or anyone else.

[Squinch]

91. Are you talking about Gonzales v. Castle Rock?

[Exotica]

119. They need to change their mottos then

[USALiberal]

115. 90% of cops never fire their gun in a llifetime....

So I guess it’s like his first time running in the fucking burning building.

What a fucking stupid argument.

[Lee-Lee]

45. No. He failed in his duty when the time came. Period

Speaking as a former deputy- he failed. Pure and simple.

His first role as an SRO is to protect those kids. Everything else he did was second to that duty and that obligation.

He failed. He failed to do what he was trained to do. He failed to do what he needed to do.

Period.

An SRO needs to be a sheepdog. As much as I hate that metaphor sometimes it fits 100% here. Yes he spent most of his time just pushing his flock in ten right direction and keeping them in line, but his main reason for being there was to stop the predator when it appeared.

He shouldn’t have been an SRO. He shouldn’t have had a badge.

My first day of BLET, our version of the academy, they spent an hour telling us accounts of cops who had sacrificed their lives to save people. Ones who jumped in front of innocent people and took bullets. Ones who ran their car head on into a drunk driver speeding the wrong way on the interstate so they hit them instead of someone else to stop them. Ones who charged into situations badly outgunned to draw fire away from innocents.

And they said bluntly if you don’t think you are ready to do that when you are called to then you need to walk away from this class now. Because any one of us can be called to make that choice and when you wear the badge you are trusted to put yourself between evil and victims.

He failed. Pure and simple.

Why did he fail? I can’t say. He had been an SRO so long maybe he had let his mindset change because he wasn’t around real police work and real cops enough. Maybe he went to be an SRO because he didn’t really want to be a cop and felt that was a good job to avoid the hard parts of it. I don’t know why he failed. I don’t really care, because nothing will bring back those 4+ minutes he say back and allowed the killing to happen without opposition when he was in a position to oppose it.

[Adrahil]

56. +1

Don’t understand the reaction of some here.

Being a cop can be dangerous. It’s part of the job.

[Dave Starsky]

60. Very well said.

Thanks for that.

[cynatnite]

61. ***THIS*** n/t

[MichMary]

78. Thanks for your perspective, Lee-Lee n/t

[Hoyt]

86. If he knew what was happening, where shooter or shooters were, where students were, etc.,

I would probably agree. If he couldn’t see a thing, which is likely in today’s school buildings, I’m not so quick to judge without hearing his thoughts. Heck the killer(s) might have set a bomb that would have killed 50 more students. I would really like to hear his side.

By the way officer, how do yo feel about police, FBI, adoptive gunner father, not doing something with this guy long ago? Or how about gun laws that let someone that young, someone that disturbed, or anyone for that matter, have easy access to these weapons, magazines, etc.

[cynatnite]

93. The fact that this guy quit as quickly as he did speaks louder than anything else.

He's a trained cop. No excuses for him not to go in there to even see to the safety of other students if nothing else.

[Hoyt]

106. Truthfully, at my age I probably would have run in, because I don't have a lot to lose. BUT

I might well have shot the first thing that moved by mistake, or made things worse by turning it into a hostage situation. Cruz could have killed a lot more people.

I see a lot of gun jocks -- many hero-wannabes -- talking about how they would have rushed in, but I bet it would be just like when Gabby Giffords was attached. People in the audience were armed, but they couldn't do anything.

I still would like to hear what the man says.

Quite frankly, I think a lot of this is people trying to make a scapegoat out of this guy to avoid blaming the FBI, local Sheriff, adoptive gunner father who was OK with this kid having these weapons. lawmakers who allowed lax gun laws, etc. Plus, I doubt seriously that the guard was trained for this situation, and if he was he wasn't trained to rush in guns ablaze when kids are there and he didn't know what was going on. I doubt he had the benefit of surveillance cameras, one of those snakes they use on TV as the SWAT squad waits outside to view what is happening, etc.

[Lee-Lee]

103. His job was to go in and figure out the things he didnt know

And the failures at so many levels to make the right interventions happen with this guy are sickening.

Part of the problem is that with these types you have to get it right all the time. LE probably acted right on tips and signs 1000 times in the last year and stopped or changed the course of things that could have been this bad. But when everyone fails on the same person this is what you get.

[Hoyt]

111. Yeah, if I remember you were quick to defend Darren Wilson, even though he blasted away in a

populated neighborhood where innocent people could have been killed, and missed his target more than he hit. And, I won't even mention whether Wilson should have shot at a man running away in the first place.

Point is, I want to hear what he has to say because I don't think any of us have the slightest idea of what was going on where he was, what he was thinking or doing at the time. If all the commotion was at the other end of the building, he probably should have gone in. If it was right there, but he could see nothing, I'm not so sure he could have made things better. He might have gotten more kids killed.

"Fools rush in," is not just a verse in a song.

Well, if everyone failed, including FBI, local police, enacters of lax gun laws, adoptive father, etc., let's not blame some old guy they assigned to stop school fights and such, especially when we don't know what was in his mind.

Now, if the guy says, I froze or regarded my life as more important than the students, you are probably right. But, I'm not sure that is the case, although I have not heard all the reports other than the Chief whose department dropped the ball several times by not doing something long ago.

[Lee-Lee]

116. His first and most important job was protecting the students

He failed.

And he didn’t fail because he tried and luck wasn’t with him. He failed by not doing his job or even trying.

That he quit so fast should tell you that even he knows his actions were indefensible.

[Hoyt]

188. Shooting them up or creating a hostage situation would not fulfill that responsibility.

[Hoyt]

190. He quit because he knew all the guilty parties were going to scapegoat him and he might lose his

retirement to save their asses.

Again, if it is shown he sat on his ass when he clearly could have made a difference, I'm with you. I don't think that is known yet.

I've watched a lot of SWAT situation with hostages on TV news, and you don't see a platoon of heavily armed and armored police rush in without visual contact until all other options have been exhausted. They take their time, use surveillance cameras, smoke bombs, etc., instead.

[Lee-Lee]

197. What you saw on the TV was not an active shooter

And that’s why you shouldn’t base you experience in what you see in TV.

If this was a case where the guy was in the building and was alone, you play the patient game.

If he had hostages but wasn’t killing people, you wait and try to diffuse it.

But this isn’t that. He was actively murderinh as many people as he could as fast as he could. The only right answer there is a rapid and immediate move to contact him and disrupt that.

The sooner he faces armed resistance the sooner he stops killing.

And at that point every second wasted in responding is a second he is left to kill.

Different scenarios call for different tactics. Thais was not a “wait and see” situation.

[Hoyt]

204. The guard didn't know what was going on -- hostage, mass murder, some fool shooting off his gun, 10

militia types showing the world how tough they were. You've got it, different situations call for different tactics and I haven't seen the details on this one. When I do it will be easier to decide whether he should have rushed in, or laid back waiting for backup.

I do know this -- the FBI, local police, adoptive father, lawmakers, the NRA, gunners everywhere, all had a part in this and now they've found a scapegoat. See, if the policeman had rushed in only 10 kids would have been killed so stop bashing guns and Wayne LaPierre, the only guy with a French name that white wing gunners/xenophobes love.

[Lee-Lee]

208. When you hear then gunshots its clear whats going on

This guy failed in his job and his duty. Period.

Was he the only one that failed? Absolutely not.

There was a whole chain of failure.

And I was just reading something, I have yet to verify it but when I do I will post a link, that that school district and department was not long ago first in the state for the number of kids that went into the juvenile justice system. So they were told to change that, and the easy was to reclassify crimes to not need intervention and lower enforcement rates and not refer students to the juvenile justice system but try to help them “in-House”.

Now, did they swing that too far and not send Cruz to law enforcement when they should have, so he would have been in the system and could have had a proper mental health evaluation or been listed a prohibited person in NICS? Maybe

If so, that is another failure.

But at the end of a huge string of failure this deputy was there and his job was to be the last line of defense for those kids in case everything else went wrong. And he failed them in the same fashion.

[Hoyt]

217. Well, I know this -- Las Vegas SWAT Team Waited One Hour Before Entering Killers Hotel Room.

Again, I might agree with you when I hear the guard's side. If he ran, froze, etc., I agree. If he didn't, it MIGHT BE a different story.

[Lee-Lee]

218. Vegas SWAT waited because bye the time they reached the hallway he had stopped firing

Had he still been firing out the window or resumed the response should have been different.

[treestar]

175. Oh we can't hear his side!

It's too much fun to be macho and judge him and be so sure we would have stopped the shooter!

[Oneironaut]

98. I will agree he did fail at his duty, but his reaction is understandable and relatable.

Everybody likes to think they would run in when the time came to take on the shooter. It’s easy to call someone a coward after the fact, or dump on their decisions.

The problem is, nobody knows how they would react in that situation. It’s easy to think that you would “absolutely take the shooter on,” but you don’t know for sure. You could run in bravely, ready to die, or you could be paralyzed by fear and hide in a corner.

Some of the teachers reacted exactly the opposite, and sacrificed their lives for their students. They were brave beyond belief.

I think most people here - myself included, aren’t excusing the cop for failing at his duty. We simply find it relatable as a fellow human. Also, I know “he signed up for that situation,” but it’s different when you’re actually in that situation.

[Demit]

113. Problem now is, every kid will look at their SRO and wonder, "Would you even try to help me,

or are you one of those cops who run away from danger?"

[ADX]

99. Great post...

...To paraphrase Shakespeare, "A coward dies a thousand deaths but the valiant taste death but once..."

[USALiberal]

118. Nope! Nt

[treestar]

170. Who says anyone has to give their life to save anyone else?

Maybe it is heroic, but it is not REQUIRED.

I know it is said of SS agents vis a vis the President. Not really sure that it should be a requirement. That's like saying one life is more valuable than another.

[Lee-Lee]

179. When you swear to become an officer you accept that your risk

Part of the job is, when needed, to put yourself between dangerous people and the citizens you serve.

It’s what you train for.

It is the whole reason police departments really exist- to protect the citizens they serve from people who would do them harm.

Nobody said he had to outright kill himself. But he was trained to go in and engage in this kind of event. Inside a building the rifle had no real advantage in firepower while he had the advantage of being trained to respond and use his firearm.

So yes, his job was to risk his life to stop the killing of others. And yes, the risk of death comes with that.

He should have quit the job long ago if he wasn’t willing to accept that risk.

There was a long line of failures that led to this point. But when it came down to it he was the last line of defense for these kids and the only on able to possibly help them. And it was his job to do it. And he didn’t.

[treestar]

196. He might have been wiling to accept that risk

but did not know exactly where the guy was, etc.

Upthread there is case law about cops and they are supposed to enforce the law more than prevent crimes. In the end, preventing crime is just impossible for any set of humans to do. Same with terrorism, with Bush and Co claiming they needed powers to protect us. It is then you realize the claim of protecting us also becomes a guise to give the executive branch more power (and cops are definitely a part of that).

And it would be a good thing to know more facts, hear his side, hear what he thought he was supposed to do in this type of scenario, etc. Rather than simply judging.

[grossproffit]

250. Thank you for posting this and thank you for having served your community.

I hope others take the time to read your words.

[Politicub]

255. His duty was not to commit suicide

The police have procedures beyond running around with guns blazing.

Ban assault weapons. Ban firearms intended to shred human flesh. Start there.

And if you believe that there should be citizen kamikazes in schools, that should never be the goal of policing.

[Hoyt]

260. Well, do you still feel that way after hearing the guard's response today?

Wonder if law enforcement "experts," gunners, hero wannabes, etc., will apologize for bashing guard last week, now that he has responded?

[Lee-Lee]

261. Yes

[samnsara]

63. man o man i understand his reluctance as well. I think thats asking way too much..

..what weapon did he have that would have stood up to that AR? any bullet proof vests?

[busterbrown]

71. Some here are stating that

a handgun might be an advantage because of maneuverability..

Hallway fight. is an example... Wow a guy could just move to a corner put his Automatic Rifle around the corner and just blast away without even looking..Just listen for voices..
Terrible comparison!

[Lee-Lee]

123. Yeah you really dont know much about guns do you?

Yes, a trained officer with a handgun would have an advantage over an untrained person with a rifle indoors.

[busterbrown]

184. Rifle Rifle?

Are You freaking kidding me..It was a goddamn AR 15 Magazine can hold up to 100 Rounds and can be dispersed as fast as you can pull your finger. How many rounds does a revolver have?

Indoors...Indoors? This was a huge school its hallways are like a maze for God's sakes..There were kids running in all directions...Killer just had to go to a corner and stick the barrel around the corner and stay protected by the Hall wall.

You must be kidding..

[treestar]

202. I know little about guns

the most important thing I know is they kill people. Second, that there are kinds of guns where you can spray multiple bullets out very easily, and they can kill more people faster.

[MichMary]

157. I think I've read

that the most dangerous situations that cops face are when they are called to a domestic disturbance. Knowing that, maybe they would be reluctant to answer those calls. Do you think that's asking way too much to go into domestic disturbance situations? I don't. I think that's their job, and they should do it.

[Downtown Hound]

72. I do feel sorry for him, but at the same time...

I can't help but think of all the times I've been told that we have to put up with tear gas being lobbed at us while we protest illegal war or rubber bullets being shot at us when we protest Wall Street criminality or black men being strangled to death for selling cigarettes, or, until very recently, at least in my state, going to jail for smoking weed, because, when our lives our in danger, we'll be glad that there's a cop out there that will put their life on the line for us.

Well, lots of lives were in danger on that day, and wouldn't you know it, the only cop who could have done anything about it just didn't have it in him. Yeah, you could say I feel more than a little cynical about all the lies I've heard about how cops are there to protect us, and all the rest of the shit we put up with from them the rest of the time is the price we pay for that.

[Squinch]

77. Question for any cops around here: if a cop comes upon a situation where he has a

pistol and the other guy has an AR15, wouldn't it be protocol for the cop to call for help and wait for it rather than going in on his own?

[Straw Man]

82. No.

That was the pre-Columbine strategy. Since then, the protocol has been to engage immediately.

[Squinch]

87. Thanks for the aswer. I'm glad I'm not a school cop. And, as a school employee, they

better never require that of me, because I couldn't do it.

[Straw Man]

90. No one should ever be compelled ...

... to be armed who doesn't want to be. But once they take on that responsibility and swear that oath, they should live up to it.

[Lee-Lee]

122. That depends on the situation. In this case no

If the situation is a guy is in a home barricaded and nobody is being actively killed, then you call for backup and wait.

Because there is nothing to be lost by waiting for more help.

In a case where someone is actively killing innocent people you don’t wait, you radio in you are going in and need help as you go in. You make contact with the attacker as fast as possible and end his attacks on the intended victims. Some departments teach responding officers should go in pairs or trees, but if you are there alone when it happens you go alone. And sometimes if your responding you go alone of backup is too far out.

Because when there is active killing happening it still possible every second you wait is another second that person has to kill or harm another person. Once you make contact with them you stop that. Then they either give up, commit suicide, you kill them or they start shooting at you instead of the intended victims. And even in the last case every shot taken at you is one not taken at innocent victims and buys more time for them to escape.

[Squinch]

124. Thank you for this answer.

[JDC]

88. I think School shootings are something he is aware of

And probably was informed at some point could be a reality. And I would venture to guess, as a police/school liaison he has been trained and drilled on this type of situation and how to respond.

Because he didn't think it could happen there is an excuse? He was gonna retire is an excuse?

This argument seems to parallel one that gun owners make. It's not the guns fault. Well, I guess it's not the cops fault either. So I guess we all better arm ourselves since we can't really expect the police to do it. This guy shouldn't have to, right?

To protect and serve last time I checked. He failed on the first part, that is clear.

I side with the folks that think he should have tried to protect. Guilty conscience is a luxury given the outcome.

[Snackshack]

97. Negative.

He had one job. He was certainly out matched fire power wise but he could have at least gone into the school to direct people to evacuate.

Having said that another poster in this thread is right. He is going to have to live with this for the rest of his life. He should not be getting grief from people. This is a BSO issue and his boss should be the one handling the ramifications for his inaction. He should not be needing guards posted at his house.

[Motley13]

108. they would rather praise a dead hero

this is very unfair, he didn't know where the shooter was, in order to take him out, he needed a clear shot & cover or be the 18th victim

[Honeycombe8]

136. We'll never know because he didn't even try. He stayed where he was safe.

He didn't even stick his head inside to see if he had a clear shot. Something. If he was too scared to do something, he should've taken a security guard job at a bldg, where they just check IDs of people coming in, and are not armed. So the school could someone who would do the job.

[iluvtennis]

109. I stand by what he did - absolutely did the right thing. To coin a phrase, you don't take a knife

to a gun fight. His pistol was no weapon against an AR-15. He is no trained SWAT team person

Wish we could have Trump get the weapons training he is espousing, make him a school teacher packing heat, and then replay history so he can take on the AR-15 shooter with his regular pistol. Trump's coward ass would run and hide. He is nothing but hyperbole talk and no action. What a shithole

[Lee-Lee]

114. You are 100% wrong

Inside a building a handgun and rifle are pretty equally matched- both are capable to stopping someone at that distance and easily employed at that distance. The difference will be who gets the first accurate shot off, and that comes down mostly to who has trained better.

His waiting 4+ minutes gave the murderer 4+ minutes to kill unopposed, while he gestured when he had the means and training to confront him and interrupt that killing. And more importantly he had the duty.

Waiting for SWAT is not how it’s done. That lesson was learned at Columbune where that tactic allowed the killers to roam the school and murder people unopposed for more than an hour.

[nil desperandum]

149. This is the right answer...

training protocol since Columbine is that you enter. This isn't a surprise scenario as some have suggested above.

The LEO on premises had the ability to get intel from exiting students as he entered, also part of the training protocol.

This guy was a scared rabbit, not a sheep dog.

Nothing wrong with that, but he was in the wrong uniform that day for a scared rabbit.

[iluvtennis]

244. Sorry...this is a religious argument, so will agree to disagree. nt

[Always Right]

248. How would the cop hiding outside know what weapon the killer was using?

While I think we need to wait for all the facts to come out before making any final judgments, we can still come to some conclusions given what we know now.

The Sheriff said that it was the cop's job to go in to engage the shooter.

Before engaging the shooter the cop hadn't see what type of weapon the shooter had so you can't say he was outgunned. Not only that, you don't know what type of weapon the cop had. As I understand it, the cop also had an AR-15 and when an off duty officer arrived, he took the rifle from the coward and went in. (While this has not been confirmed yet, I understand that there is video of it and hopefully it will eventually be released.)

News reports say the officer had been on school patrol for 9 years. Columbine was nearly 20 years ago and since then, protocol has been to immediately rush in to stop the shooter so you can't say that he thought he was at the school to break up fights and that he had no idea that he might one day be called upon to stop a school shooting.

History has shown that as soon as a school shooter is faced with any armed resistance they immediately stop and tend to kill themselves. In some cases merely pointing a gun in the shooter's direction has been enough to cause them to suicide. The cop merely had to go into the building and take a shot at the killer and it would almost certainly ended the event.

So what does this do to the argument about arming the teachers? One side says that trained cops froze so what chance does a teacher have? The other side will say that the teachers there did a better job that the coward cop and that the murdered teachers probably wished they had a gun.

What I find ironic is that the officer who's job it was to protect the kids is now under police protection since there are many people who blame him and that this officer gets to live out the remainder of his days collecting a pension paid by the parent's of those dead kids.

[lunasun]

117. some officers are taking a pledge to act . Its a decision they need to make before it happens

Also this was dated before the police force went public with the FL school officer suspension/ resignation

Will you take the active shooter pledge?I have taken the pledge long ago that if I am ever once again in a position to do so I will move to stop the killing immediately
Feb 15, 2018

THE ACTIVE SHOOTER/KILLER PLEDGE
I have personally decided that the threats faced by my generation of police officers require that I always be armed and personally committed to furiously train to protect those who can’t protect themselves in their moment of desperate need.

If I am ever faced with an in-progress active shooter/killer and I can make a difference, I will use my superior attitude, superior training, superior tactics and superior weapon (superior because it is in my trained hands) to become an army of one!

Out of my love for humanity I will enter that environment like a hate-seeking missile and use the chaos created by the killer(s) as a distracted device. I will move unheard and unseen by the killer(s) to a position of advantage. Once there – if left with no other options and presented with the opportunity to stop the killing – I will take the shot and make the shot. I am the protector of the flock; the honorable sheepdog.

[Lee-Lee]

125. For those who dont understand why cops and others are so harsh on him

I’ve said before that I don’t fully like the sheepdog anaology, but it fits in this case.

Read this short essay:

https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/1709289-Book-Excerpt-On-Sheep-Wolves-and-Sheepdogs/

When the guy pinned the badge he took the oath to be a sheepdog. When took the SRO job he pledged to protect all those kids and put himself between them and any danger if need be. And every day he woke up and put that badge and gun he reaffirmed that obligation to the society that trusted him to be that sheepdog.

It’s a mentality most people will not understand without it being explained to them, because it’s not in their nature. They put themselves in that circumstance and they see how they would react. But they are not people in the position or place to be the sheepdog and are not the people who ever would be.

He failed not only those kids, but everyone else with a badge and every member of society who knowingly, subconsciously or even grudgingly knows and hopes that in their time of worst need that the sheepdog society trusts and empowers to help them will be there and do the right thing.

[Eliot Rosewater]

127. Huge fucking COWARDS who wouldnt even take his job in the first place will

criticize him because it is easy to do.

When the biggest coward who ever lived criticizes him, then it is fair game for other HUGE cowards to do so.

[Honeycombe8]

128. I'm not okay w/his actions. He wasn't armed for misbehaving students.

He was charged with security, and was armed to protect the students.

He was outgunned, but so were the kids. He didn't even try. He didn't even go inside. Maybe he could've gotten a shot at the shooter from the back. Who knows.

Seems to me he was scared. If you're scared of gun confrontations, don't take a job where you are supposed to protect students with firepower.

If he couldn't do the job, he should've said so, so they could get someone who could. He'll probably have to move and change his name.

[JPPaverage]

133. He only was armed with a pistol

The criminal had an assault rifle. The school cop would have lost that battle for sure. And suppose he thought another kid was the gunman and shot the wrong person? The "brave" rwers don't really think about that. All they can think about is..."MORE GUNS. MMMMMMMMM"

[bullimiami]

135. No cop is trained to charge into an unknown situation alone.

This is pure scapegoating by the gun nut agenda.

Shameful if his brothers don’t come to his defense.

[pnwmom]

191. I agree. They've made an exception since Columbine, but it doesn't make sense.

How is a single cop armed with a pistol able to go up against a crazed shooter spraying bullets from an AR-15?

[treestar]

137. I would rather hear the whole story

than judge immediately. That is what too many people are doing. He would have just gotten killed, and that would not have saved anybody. The shooter had plenty of ammunition. If anything, it undermines the good guy with a gun argument. Obviously the good guy always needs an automatic weapon in case that is what they are attacked with.

[VaBchTgerLily]

139. I agree with you busterbrown

[obamanut2012]

141. And, it was in Parkland

I live in the area, and even though I know no place is safe, IT IS PARKLAND.

[Chakaconcarne]

144. I can see it both ways, but he doesn't deserve to be castigated... or likely threatened

for the rest of his life.

[mudstump]

148. And, this is the problem....

with the AR15 and other like guns. No one has a chance against them. Few people would attempt to take down a guy with all the advantages in his court. Ban them now.

[orangecrush]

155. He was the only one there

armed besides the murderer. (I don't like the term "shooter", it minimizes what is actually being done.)

He was better armed than teachers who used their bodies to shield those kids.

When things reach that point, it isn't a job anymore, it is a SACRED TRUST, and he betrayed that trust placed in him by his department, the community, and most of all, those kids.

[OhNo-Really]

156. I agree however, this might warrant other schools to review their safety officers creds

Did Cruz leave the school because he ran out of bullets? It was almost an hour before police caught him in another town after Cruz went to McDonalds

[TNLib]

162. I agree

Supposedly he was expected to go in there without any backup and engage the shooter. In other words he was suppose to sacrifice himself. I can't see anyone surviving that situation.

[orangecrush]

174. "sacrifice"

the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.


http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sacrifice

[Hekate]

177. I knew an LAPD cop who left the force after the Watts Riots. At 6'4" he kept being put in front...

...in what he called a war zone. He was my dad's age and had been overseas during WW II, so let's not dispute that observation. In any case, he had 3 youngsters and a wife.

So Don became a school cop. He patrolled the buildings at night, alone. He told me he made as much noise entering buildings as one could. Bam! The doors opened. Bam! The doors closed. Anybody there had plenty of warning to climb back out the window.

Thank you for your comments, busterbrown.

[OldManTarHeel]

183. The Cop was scared . . . so what, he was a coward and a pussy. Screw Him.

. and I'd bet the rest of the police force/coworkers would agree with me.

[pnwmom]

192. Or he was realistic. What match is a cop with a pistol against a crazed shooter

at un unknown location, near unknown other students, spraying bullets from an AR-15?

[OldManTarHeel]

230. The Man was a Pussy . . he took the easy way out and failed to engage, as He should have.

Heaven forbid you are in the same situation and some cop says: Awww, Hell No . . ! LMFAO at this overpaid wimp of a man.

[pnwmom]

236. Normally, police wait for backup in situations like this.

He wasn't trained to be in a war zone.

[Vinca]

193. I've been thinking about this all day and have come to the conclusion the guy would have

been on a suicide mission if he'd tried to go after the shooter by himself. A handgun - which I assume is what he had - is no match for an assault rifle. In addition, I just heard an interview of a person who was inside the building and she said that by the time the red alert was issued - which would have notified the security person - the shooter was already on the 3rd floor of the building. I think everyone needs someone to blame and this poor guy was available.

[busterbrown]

195. Lots of Tough Guys talking lately...

stating how the Guard was a coward.. I'm sure everyone of these guys would have gladly charged into the school's hallways and began his search amongst kids screaming and running while bullets were screeching all over place.

[Upthevibe]

207. So I guess the NRA's answer is that

he should have had (an now all the teachers should have) AK rifles? Sounds good to me....what could possibly go wrong....

[OldManTarHeel]

231. Feeling Guilt is the likely sentiment. The Man Pussyied Out

Shame on him.

[tblue37]

214. + a brazillion. nt

[kskiska]

225. In the words of Mike Tyson

"Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth."

[busterbrown]

227. Yep! a lot of tough guys around here....N/t

[OldManTarHeel]

232. Not a Tough Guy . . Just Brave enough to do my fukking job. Peterson is a Pussy.

[Hekate]

228. Christ on a Trailer Hitch, this thread reeks of NRA framing. Not the OP, but dozens of replies...

STOP letting the NRA frame the debate. We will continue the madness and become an international pariah.

What is wrong with you people? I don't give a shit if you hunt animals. STOP ALLOWING THE HUNTING OF OUR CHILDREN.

REFRAME THE DAMN DEBATE ON SANE TERMS.

[blake2012]

229. here is my thought--the main issue in bringing this up isn't to humiliate this guy

The main point is having a TRAINED member of law enforcement on the school campus who is armed in no way is going to help the situation re: AR15's and other high powered weaponry.

Get rid of guns like that. Period. Stop with this distraction of adding more armed guards or arming teachers.

[malaise]

237. Adding a link to this thread

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210281460

[aikoaiko]

245. He doesn't deserve crap or to be called names.

But he did sign up to protect those children and standard procedure is to engage active shooters as best they can.

He's received his consequences. He lost his job.

[samnsara]

251. i agree!

[quaker bill]

252. My guess would be

That a SRO under these circumstances has standing orders that make calling for backup his first order of business, and then providing whatever site intelligence he can as they arrive. While rushing into live fire and blazing away while massively out gunned would be all action movie hero like, it is generally not how law enforcement addresses active shooters. It took a long time, I think an hour or more to breach Pulse and get to the shooter.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

256. My buddy is retired LAPD.

The first thing he said is the guy was approaching retirement and didn't want to get killed. We had a long conversation about what law enforcement is obliged to do in those situations.

It's trite to say he signed up for it. We all like to think we would be heroes. Who knows ?

[hamsterjill]

264. Im disappointed in the guy, but at this point

I think he would just have been one more body to deal with. He was clearly outgunned and he knew it. It definitely shows why teachers should not be expected to face off against a killing machine.