Teachers to be ordered to "charge up the hill" into machine gun fire...

[kentuck]

If the idea of arming teachers were to become a reality, they would probably be armed with a handgun? A handgun vs an automatic or semi-automatic weapon. That would not be a fair fight.

How about we arm the teacher with an AR-15 also? Then they would be on even ground with the shooter. We would hope that no one would come between the flying rounds and the two gun fighters?

Anyway, where would the teacher put his semi-automatic weapon while he was teaching class? What if he had to leave the room? Would he take his AR-15 with him?

There is just so much wrong with this idea.

[Igel]

1. The only imbalance between a handgun and AR-15

would be the size of the magazine.

Most handguns are semi-automatic. Things like AR-15s more often have larger capacity magazines. Handguns can have 10 or 15 round magazines, but I suspect they're more rare. I've seen 30-round handgun magazines for sale. Beyond knowing that these things exist, can't say much more. Not my hobby.

Automatic weapons are rare. It's hard to tell that because so many people use "assault rifle" (selective fire, including an automatic setting) and "assault weapon" (invariably semi-automatic) as though they were the same thing. One's been heavily regulated and all but banned for quite a while.

I'll repeat what I wrote last night. I've known teachers who wanted to carry handguns. They'd have them on their person at all times. And instead of going out after the shooter, they'd be behind a locked door with their students: If the intruder came through the door, they'd be waiting for him. Unless the intruder used a student as a human shield, it would be unlikely students would be between the two fighters. Behind the intruder would be pretty much empty hall. Behind the teacher, students. They weighed the usefulness of having a gun against the usefulness of not having one.

[longship]

2. Arming teachers is just plain wrong on so many levels.

The utter idiocy of semantic firearm arguments, notwithstanding. (Why? Oh why do people inevitably argue terminology in these discussions? That's a non-starter.)

My best to you.

[Yupster]

5. Yet districts have been doing it for years now without really a protest

Districts near me have been doing it for a few years now. Forsan ISD in Texas is one that surprised me when I went to the front door and saw the sign warning me that the staff of the school were armed and would use force to protect their children.,

[longship]

6. Totally irrelevant.

Full stop!!! Guns do not belong in schools.

PERIOD!!!

And I don't give a fuck what stupid idiots do.

Nope!

[Yupster]

7. It's just that people are treating the idea as something that is

unheard of and ridiculous while it had actually been in implementation for years in many places pretty much without protest or incident.

Also, teachers are afraid they'll be forced to carry guns. It might help them rest easier if they actually saw how these programs have actually been implemented rather than be afraid of some nightmare they've thought of which no district as far as I know has ever tried to implement.

[kentuck]

8. How did they get that by the school board ??

Teachers are not infallible.

[Yupster]

13. I guess each school board is different

It's not like it's a secret. There are big billboards at each entrance of each school warning anyone that if you try to shoot someone at this school, you will be fought by armed people and you won't know what direction they will be coming from.

Hasn't been any controversy or protest. Seems like the majority of parents and employees are okay with it.

[longship]

9. People within the entire education infrastructure are universally against it!!

I don't give a flying fuck what a few ignorant buffoons in Texas, or the fucking NRA, want to do.

Nobody else thinks this is a good idea. NOBODY!!!!

[Yupster]

14. I don't think you're using the word "universally" correctly

At least in some districts, the educational establishment is for it since they implemented it.

School boards in these smaller communities are generally unpaid or paid $ 30 a month. They are generally retired teachers and principals. Whether they had 35 years teaching experience or a doctorate in curriculum development, they wouldn't be surprised by being called "ignorant buffoons." It's what they expect from people who gave up trying to relate to them and instead just insult them long ago.

[longship]

15. Who cares what idiots think?

Your position has no basis. None whatsoever. Some people agree with me does not cut it any more than the semantic arguments. ON THE WHOLE, the entire education system is totally against guns of any kind in schools.

Your position is mistaken. Tragically mistaken if it is implemented.

Here I must stand. Against the NRA position, which apparently would be yours.

I'm done here.

Best regards, otherwise.

[Yupster]

16. I haven't even said whether I agree with the policy or not

The only way I even found out about it was I was asked to drive out to the district to do an inservice for the teachers. When I got out of the car I was taken aback by the signage. It was right in your face.

My main problem with your posts is that DU has a problem with having one officially approved view and anyone who disagrees is a poopy head. You don't have to even argue why they're poopy heads. It's okay to just call them names and act like that's an argument. Then we wonder why rural voters have turned against us so badly.

Is it a good idea or not? I don't have a dog in the fight. Not only don't I live near Forsan, I don't even have a kid in school anymore.

But having driven out there, I can sure see their point. They're in the middle of no where. Call a cop and he may get there in half an hour if you're lucky and that cop will be one sheriff's deputy. So this is the solution they came up with. Is it right or wrong? Is it up to us who live completely different lives to even say?

Even better. Let's just call them ignorant morons and be done with it.

[longship]

17. Arming teachers is not the answer.

Let's just say that.

Find another solution.

[Yupster]

18. This was a good post for you to end on

You expressed your opinion without insulting anyone. Is it right or wrong? It's your opinion.

Much better than your previous posts where you called people who disagreed with you a/an

idiot

stupid idiot

ignorant buffoon

idiots

and called me a tool of the NRA which is funny since I've never owned a gun in my life.

As far as finding a different solution, I am really pretty comfortable letting the people of the community who actually live there come up with their own solutions. I really don't feel like I should be telling people what to do when they live lives so different from mine. I don't know the problems they're dealing with. I've never lived in a small town far from and big city. How can I tell these people what they should be doing or not doing? Even when I do my inservices, I realize that the programs I recommend have to be molded to each district. A program that can be implemented successfully in Queens New York will not necessarily work the same way in Forsan, Texas. Would It be reasonable to expect it would?

And by the way, the teachers and staff in Forsan seemed no more idiotic or buffoonish than any other group of educators in any other district I've gone to. They are serious educators looking for ideas that will help their children the most.

[longship]

19. Actually, this is pretty damned simple.

The argument that the solution to school mass shootings is to arm the teachers, to add more guns to the equation, is a non-starter.

What kind of mindless idiocy comes up with such a solution?

That's right. The NRA! (on edit: And Drumpf, of course.)

I'll stand by my posts here, including calling the arming teachers position idiotic. That position is an ever decreasing minority, here on DU especially.

Hope you are well.

[yagotme]

20. Hmmm. Adding more guns...

"The argument that the solution to school mass shootings is to arm the teachers, to add more guns to the equation, is a non-starter.

What kind of mindless idiocy comes up with such a solution?"

So, I guess calling the cops was a bad idea, right? 'Cuz, you know, they are just gonna add more guns to the equation, and all...

[kentuck]

23. Cops are hired to be cops....teachers are hired to be teachers.

Maybe they can switch jobs?

The patient says to the Dr, "It hurts when I do this"...

Dr says, "Don't do that".

[yagotme]

32. I don't understand your Dr analogy, but I'll take a stab at the first...

Cops are "trained" to use firearms responsibly. "Trained", as in rudimentary training for the basic street cop. Civilians can take firearms training, as well, just for defensive purposes. Most people don't expect a teacher to leave their students, and go out and hunt down a roaming shooter. Staying in place and setting up a defensive position would be a more likely scenario.

I have shot in training/competition against several different officers, and most of them were of average/below average shooting skill. Rare was the case where one would outshoot me.

My post you were responding to was tongue-in-cheek, as several here have called for gun bans/controls, but when there's trouble, call for someone to bring a gun. Doesn't really make sense, does it, if you really analyze it.

[kentuck]

38. Everybody talks about everything except the real issue...guns.

As a kid, I remember this old preacher that got bit on the hand by a rattlesnake he was handling in church. After 2 or 3 days, gangrene set in and he had to go to the hospital to get his hand amputated. When his friends asked him what caused his hand to be amputated, he said, "Gangrene". Never mentioned the rattlesnake.

[yagotme]

40. Real issue:

OK, in your analogy, the snake was the cause. Well, if he hadn't picked up the snake, he'd be OK, right? If this dirtbag in FL had been arrested, charged, been found guilty of any of the alleged assaults, he'd be in jail/on the no-buy NICS list. So, if law enforcement had done their job, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now, would we???

[kentuck]

43. Maybe? Maybe not?

Maybe he would have been arrested and then released after a short time? Maybe he would have gone and bought the AR anyway? It would have been nice if we had a list to prevent him from purchasing the assault rifle, but it would have been better if there had been no assault rifle for him to purchase, under the deceitful guise of the 2nd Amendment. There is no need and no use for these types of weapons in the hands of average citizens. If that is your hobby and you like to collect AR-15s, then maybe you should get a new hobby?

[yagotme]

46. If he had been convicted of multiple assaults,

then he wouldn't have been legally allowed to purchase any gun. If he had been involuntarily admitted to a mental hospital, he wouldn't have been legally allowed to purchase any gun. My point is, passing gun bans will have NO effect on crime, as long as the system is broken, and stays broken. Remember, you are tasking the same system that dropped the ball in this case, and putting a heavier load on it. Tell me that it won't royally screw that up, too.

[longship]

39. Teachers aren't fucking cops, man.

When I was teaching high school math at a very large (4,000 students) high school in CA we had two resource officers who had access to firearms on the premises during school hours. But they were actual police officers. In other words, they were trained in law enforcement, and firearms. That was their job.

But nobody was so blinkered stupid to suggest that the teachers should be armed. In fact, that would get a teacher fired really quickly. Law enforcement is not a teacher's job. Can you imagine a firearm in-service? I can't. The teacher's union would never stand for any suggestion that teachers should be armed.

[yagotme]

41. So, are there any teachers in the US that are allowed to carry in school?

If so, how many of those teachers shot their students?

(Man, I love giving homework to a teacher.)

[longship]

42. Not in the districts I taught in.

The only legal firearms were in the control of our campus police officers.

And that's the way everybody wanted it!!! We knew, it would be madness to allow people to bring firearms onto campus. It's a very easy call.

[yagotme]

47. Hate to grade your homework, but your reading comprehension needs attention:

Answer to 1st question:

http://www.armedcampuses.org/
Several states allow CC on campus.

2d answer:

Browsed through Wiki for about 10 minutes, went back to 2000, none found.

[LanternWaste]

45. Four children, ages 6 to 8, used the bathroom while the gun was on the toilet.

"pretty much without protest or incident..."



'Beth Jean Dixon, 63, put her holstered pistol on a toilet tank when she used the unisex, one-toilet bathroom Aug. 25 at Cumberland Christian School, in Chambersburg, police said. They said she forgot about it and left.

Four children, ages 6 to 8, used the bathroom while the gun was on the toilet. One child told his parent, who told a teacher.'





Thank goodness there was no protest.

[yagotme]

10. Because if you want to pass an effective law,

you need to know what you're talking about. For example, the '94 AWB. It wasn't actually an AWB, it was a "these items make a rifle look evil" ban. Because, manufacturers just stopped putting on the extra parts, and still made the basic rifle. The cosmetic changes had nothing to do with the functioning of the gun. Talk to anyone that specializes in a specific field, misuse their terminology, and see what happens. Bet you get corrected.

[longship]

12. Now back to the semantic arguments?

I don't care what one calls them.
NO FIREARMS OF ANY KIND IN SCHOOLS!!!
Get it yet?

Hope so.

SHEESH!

Heavens to murgatroyd!
Exit stage left.

[yagotme]

21. Are armed guards allowed in schools?

Police officers? Federal law enforcement?

"NO FIREARMS OF ANY KIND IN SCHOOLS!!!"

Language is the means to communicate. Proper, concise language leaves little room for misunderstanding. Semantics over firearms law is necessary, because without proper terminology, you will have to keep going back to the law again and again to "fix" it. Imagine going back to the garage to have your car fixed, because someone was using the improper terminology. "My car won't start." "OK, I replaced the battery". "Still won't start." "OK, replaced the starter." "Still won't start." "OK, replaced the spark plugs/wires." "Still won't start." "OK replaced the ignition switch, wiring, and shifter sensor." "Still won't start. I'm outta gas." "Well, why didn't you say so in the first place?"

[Fred Sanders]

27. Proper terminology is important, which is why there are "lawyers". It is not hard. Every

Last edited Thu Feb 22, 2018, 02:44 PM - Edit history (1)

other country in the world has zero problem.

SEE CANADA for terminology.

Gun lovers have so many straw men they could set up a league.

[yagotme]

33. I disagree about "lawyers".

Lawyers are needed so often nowadays, because the law is NOT clear on a subject, and the lawyers/judge have to hash it out. Or, an activist lawyer "sees" wording in a law that is not there, bending and twisting the law to serve their own desire. Lawyers (politicians) also tend to gum up the works with legislation, making hiring another lawyer NECESSARY to decipher the law. Sometimes, even that isn't enough.

"Every other country in the world has zero problem."

With what? Gun Laws? Fully automatic arms are banned in France and Belgium, as I recall, as well as bombs, but there is a movie coming out about a shooter on a French train (full auto AK), and the recent bombings. Just because something is "banned", or "illegal", doesn't make it disappear. See: War On Drugs.

[Fred Sanders]

35. Zero problem with defining terms...that is an NRA meme that the terms are so hard to define!

The "French movie" is an anti-Muslim Clint Eastwood piece of propaganda that is "bombing" in theaters.

No one is asking guns to "disappear". Murder is banned... has not disappeared.

Lot of NRA memes....

[yagotme]

37. So, are you saying the event on the train didn't happen?

"No one is asking guns to "disappear."

Umm, yes they are. What do you think "Ban them all" means, anyway??? It would be nice if murder disappeared. I believe some on here WOULD like to see guns "disappear".

And a lot of the terms aren't "hard to define". Just that some people won't accept the actual definition, and substitute their own.

[kentuck]

4. Yeah, as I recall, a couple of people were shot thru the door...

They also have bullet-proof blankets that kids can lay on the floor and cover themselves with, as an added protection.

Can we do this exercise without the bullets ??

[LanternWaste]

44. Yup... when a ship is sinking, it's very rational to ask the cook to help

Yup... when a ship is sinking, it's very rational to ask the cook to help by emptying a bottle of water. Even better when we known cooks who "wanted to carry water bottles..."

[safeinOhio]

3. In a past life I shot both

can't hit anything with a hand gun.

[TheSmarterDog]

11. If the GOP mandates this

The first people to be murdered in the next school shooting - and there will be another school shooting - will be the teachers.

[yagotme]

22. For discussion's sake,

that's probably going to be a little difficult in a lot of schools. They would have to go after every teacher, and some schools, that's a lot, and they would be spread out over a large area. Not all would be armed, but the shooter won't know who is and who isn't. What's being proposed/implemented in some areas, is that it's voluntary.

[Orsino]

24. This is a consequence of deprofessionalizing the teaching profession.

We have tied them to mindless curricula, leaving them little time for any teaching beyond repeat-after-me. We have pushed them into poverty and hamstrung their unions, ensuring that they have little means to fight any stupid unfunded mandates the GOP dreams up to distract from the legislation that should already have been passed.

[Initech]

25. I don't think conservatives get that Rambo is a movie.

John Rambo is a fictional character! Fictional! He can run into gun fire and escape unscathed. In real life it doesn't work that way!

[underpants]

26. Oh great! And just ignore all the homeless Vets?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210272028

[Mr. Ected]

28. It's one thing to be trained to shoot a firearm

It's another thing, in the midst of a crisis, to be able to cleanly line up a shot, and then muster up the courage to KILL another human being (no matter how heinous a person he may be).

That's asking a lot from our teachers, who seem to be the dumping ground for all the ills of our society.

[kentuck]

29. Amen to that.

Everything is dumped on the teachers. And they don't want to pay them for the job they do.

[Merlot]

30. The "idea" of arming teachers is just bait

Now everyone is arguing about arming teachers instead of banning guns. Nice work, NRA & repubs.

[kentuck]

31. Good point.

It also takes the attention off the Russia scandal.

But, neither issue is going to disappear, imo.

[StarlightGold]

34. Don't even ask questions

about such a suggestion. Just say or write "You are bat-fuck insane." Then turn your energy to other things. Even engaging these people at ALL has got to stop. I'm not singling you out, that is directed towards us all.

[leftyladyfrommo]

36. You do know this discussion is crazy?

Turning schools into armed camps just means the NRA has won. And it is insane.

If this is what we have become then our society has gone over the cliff.