Its time to fight back against the new GOP talking point on Russia

[D_Master81]

Now that there have been indictments in the Russia probe, people on the right from Fox News all the way up to the WH are saying, "yeah, but it didnt change the outcome at all". We and especially people on tv need to fire back, "yeah but that doesnt make it ok. Just because you shoot at someone w/ the intent of killing them and miss you dont get to say in court, 'yeah but your honor, the guy is still alive'. If you break into someone's house and ransack the place you cant argue 'but i didnt take anything'". Trump and his allies are essentially letting the thief hang around the house and about to leave for work w/out kicking the guy out. They're saying, "why dont you lock up for me after you're done".

[oberliner]

1. Of course it changed the outcome

That was the whole point.

[uponit7771]

2. At the LEAST it influenced votes

[genxlib]

3. Anyone who doesn't think it changed the election

Wasn't paying attention to the overwhelming generic negative pall that was cast on Hillary due to the onslaught of this misinformation campaign. You can't swim in that toxic water for a year and not get infected.

[unblock]

5. The problem there is republicans have been smearing Hillary for a quarter century

Russians didn’t invent a new line of attacking, really. They just exploited and furthered a way that republicans have been attacking our democracy for decades.

Surely the Russians amping it up changed votes even if they didn’t directly alter vote counts (though I’m sure they did, if only via registration databases).

But it’s not easy to identify someone who would have voted for Hillary despite the usual republican lies but voted for Donnie because of the Russian lies.

This becomes much easier if you can prove coordination of lies, of course.

[Cosmocat]

8. YEP!!!

I have said this since he came down the escalator.

45 ran as an R because the party laid the ground work in separating 40% of the country from reality with over a quarter century or conservative media brain washing.

[genxlib]

9. No doubt that the smear campaign started way before the Russians

I also agree that it isn't easy to identify a would be Hillary voter. But I think that says more about human nature than it does about the election. Almost no one will readily admit to being duped out of shame and embarrassment. To this day, Hillary is still fighting unfair negative perceptions because people refuse to believe they were misled.

But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Giving up on that idea allows the GOP to pass off the whole ordeal as irrelevant.

And let's not forget that there was illegal hacking activity that gave them extra ammunition. That part of it is all on Russia.

But there is an important point in what you are saying relative to future elections. We have to guard against future Russian meddling but that will not make us safe. Having seen the effectiveness of the misinformation campaign, I have no doubt that homegrown rat-fuckers won't try to use it themselves.

We need a more educated and cynical electorate to keep from being manipulated again. More than anything, that is why a complete exposure of what happened is important.

[unblock]

10. Very good points.

At a minimum, people should question how and why republican interests became so closely aligned with the interests of a major adversary eager to reduce our power.

Sadly, there is much work to be done on many fronts.

Voting rights, from gerrymandering to disenfranchisement to voting machines to hacking;
Money in campaigns;
Huge right-wing bias in media coverage.

... even if we could eliminate foreign influence.

[Iliyah]

4. I believe the Russians through the GOPs

messed with the voting machines, ballots, coupled with voting suppression tactics. Didn't I also read that in Detroit, MI, that they refused to tally votes which would have made HRC the winner of MI.

So yes, it impacted the outcome of the ECs, which Russia alongwith the GOPs helped to steal and cheat.

[Nitram]

6. It's not a new talking point. They've been using that since the beginning.

It typically goes like this: "The Russians didn't interfere, and if they did, it didn't affect the outcome of the election." Repeat.

[Botany]

7. It is playing out like this:

1) Trump/GOP We never talked to the Russians.

2) Trump/GOP Well, we talked to the Russians but not about the elections.

3) Trump/GOP Well, we talked to the Russians and it was about the elections.

4) Trump/GOP Well, we talked to the Russians about the elections but they didn't
tamper with the vote.

5) Trump/GOP Well, we talked to the Russians about the elections and they did try
to tamper with the vote but it didn't effect the outcome of the elections.

And next up will be
6) Trump/GOP Well, we talked to the Russians about the elections, they did try
to tamper with the vote with Trump/GOP/Cambridge Analytica help, and it effected
the outcome.


https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210212503 a must read posted by riverside

Link to tweet

[mopinko]

11. to believe that it didnt affect the outcome you have to believe

that $15 m couldnt change 70k votes.
i dont think you could get anyone in politics today to say that w a straight face.

[GeorgeGist]

12. You're playing their game.