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ffr

(22,670 posts)
Mon Feb 19, 2018, 12:20 AM Feb 2018

Public Debt interest costs expected to triple to $818/yr by 2027. That's just interest on debt!!



Do the math. Today’s GOP doesn’t add up
"interest costs will triple over the next 10 years, soaring from $269 billion in 2017 to $818 billion in 2027." Mississippi Sun Herald


Enjoy the tax cut for tRump and his rich conservative supporters, folks.
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roamer65

(36,745 posts)
1. Therefore, the Federal Reserve cannot significantly raise interest rates.
Mon Feb 19, 2018, 12:24 AM
Feb 2018

If they do, it swamps the budget and invokes a fiscal crisis. They have no choice but to keep rates artificially low and inflate.

democratisphere

(17,235 posts)
2. This is all headed to a very ugly scary place where no one would ever
Mon Feb 19, 2018, 12:37 AM
Feb 2018

want to be. We need real fiscal sharpshooters at the helm instead of a bunch of wall street wannabe robber barons.

roamer65

(36,745 posts)
3. As I tell people, you will get your Social Security check no worries.
Mon Feb 19, 2018, 12:49 AM
Feb 2018

What it will buy you is a completely different story. Probably a small bag of rice in 20 years.

All empires eventually devalue and ultimately destroy their currencies in the attempt to perpetuate the empire.

$100 US dollars in 2017 now equals around $12.75 US dollars of 1965.

A HERETIC I AM

(24,371 posts)
6. The interest rate the Treasury pays on the bonds it issues...
Mon Feb 19, 2018, 01:12 AM
Feb 2018

are not set by the Federal Reserve.

The cost of the interest on the US debt has nothing to do with the interest rates the Fed can adjust or control.

progree

(10,909 posts)
7. How about quantitative easing? And doesn't changing the Fed Funds rate affect other short term debt
Mon Feb 19, 2018, 01:57 AM
Feb 2018

When the Fed Funds rate changes, it seems like other short-term interest rates follow, and intermediate rates too to some extent.

And I thought quantitative easing (where the Fed buys trillions in treasuries and agency bonds) is meant to push up the prices (and thus push down the yields) of these and similar bonds. Goal: to push interest rates down or keep them from rising, or rising as much as they would otherwise. To prop up the economy.

Or is all this just kabuki?

The cost of the interest on the US debt has nothing to do with the interest rates the Fed can adjust or control.


A HERETIC I AM

(24,371 posts)
8. Allow me to take these one at a time
Mon Feb 19, 2018, 02:47 AM
Feb 2018
How about quantitative easing?

You kind of answered that below. As I understand it, the entire purpose of the Federal Reserve buying Treasury Bonds was to inject money (cash) into the economy at large. Holders of Treasuries, as you may be aware, run the gamut from international central banks to pension funds to mutual funds to insurance companies to individuals. Lots of different entities see US Debt paper as a safe haven because it is an EXTREMELY liquid security (trades settle "same day" as opposed to "trade plus 3" with most other securities) and for the most part, if you hold a Treasury bond for even just 6 months, long enough to collect a coupon payment and then sell, you very rarely lose money, if ever. But if you are holding that paper, you aren't holding cash. And cash is king, as they say. The Fed was trying to goose an economy that was on its knees. It seemed to work. Keep in mind that it does not matter WHO holds the paper, the Treasury still pays the interest, so the Fed gained interest payments on all the bonds it bought while it held them. They must, by law and charter, return that money to the Treasury, BTW. They don't get to keep the interest payments as profit.

And doesn't changing the Fed Funds rate affect other short term debt

Absolutely. The Fed Funds Rate is that rate the Federal Reserve charges member banks for loans, and these loans are usually VERY short term - 90 days or less, often simply overnight. But yes, when a bank has to pay more to get cash, they charge more to lend it out, but that effects loans, not Treasury Debt. I'm talking credit cards, mortgages, auto loans and other secured and unsecured lines of credit.

When the Fed Funds rate changes, it seems like other short-term interest rates follow, and intermediate rates too to some extent.


Yup. When the Fed funds rate goes up, so does the rate on your Visa and the next mortgage or car loan you seek.

(On edit to add, that I am actually looking to buy a new(er) car this week precisely because I fear auto loan rates are going to rise)


And I thought quantitative easing (where the Fed buys trillions in treasuries and agency bonds) is meant to push up the prices (and thus push down the yields) of these and similar bonds.

The bond market reacts to supply and demand just like anything else. When the Fed started buying this paper at a rapid pace, it put demand on the market where there was none (or not as much, anyway) before. So the prices for an individual bond went up, and yields fell. If you can go back to late summer 2007 you would find that the 30 year Treasury had a coupon of 5 to 5.5%. It's currently 3%. That's $30 a year on every $1000 par value bond. But what was more interesting in my mind is the "curve" of the yields and coupons across the maturities. Back then it was something like 30 year = 5%, ten year = 3%, 5 year =1.5 to 2% and so on, a definable curve. Now it has flattened to the point that a 2 year T-Bill is paying 2% and the thirty year is only one single percentage point higher! This is good for the Treasury but sucks if you are looking for interest payments as an investor in these securities.

So yes, the whole Quantitative Easing policy most certainly had the effect of increasing prices on currently issued bonds and forcing down yields.

::: I want to make a point here about how Treasury bonds are priced; When the Treasury Auctions off new debt paper, the coupon, yields and prices for the individual bonds of the various maturities offered for sale are set at an auction, the participants being the "Primary Dealers". If the dealers feel they can not sell 30 year paper at a 3% coupon anymore, it will get bid up at the next auction, but for the most part, the actual price or cost of one of the bonds stays pretty close to $1,000.00 a piece. It is in the secondary market where the price will vary to a larger degree. ::::


Goal: to push interest rates down or keep them from rising, or rising as much as they would otherwise. To prop up the economy.


Which it pretty much did, wouldn't you agree? Keep in mind that one of the most serious issues facing the financial industry in late 2008 is that banks stopped lending to each other. No one could trust anyone else to pay back money they borrowed. If the Fed hadn't stepped in and done what they did and continued to do so until they stopped, the great recession may very well have turned into a second great depression we would still be trying to climb out of. I once heard an apt description of the difference between a recession and a depression.;
A recession is when an economy is brought to its knees.
A depression in when an economy has been knocked flat on its back and can't get up.


Or is all this just kabuki?


If Kabuki is an economy, then yes! But no, it isn't theater, not by a long shot.

progree

(10,909 posts)
4. And that comes from a CBO report in JUNE 2017? That was long before the TCJA tax cut
Mon Feb 19, 2018, 01:07 AM
Feb 2018

that adds $1.5 trillion to the debt over 10 years -- which will generate some additional interest costs.

and from the linked article http://www.sunherald.com/opinion/editorials/article200608719.html

Even worse, the Foundation says interest costs "are projected to be the third largest category in the federal budget by 2026 (after just Social Security and Medicare), the second largest category in 2046, and the single largest category before 2050."

roamer65

(36,745 posts)
5. Remember the days of 2000, when we had a surplus and stopped selling 30 year treasuries?
Mon Feb 19, 2018, 01:09 AM
Feb 2018

Wow...times do change...in this case for the worse.

ffr

(22,670 posts)
10. Yes, I do. Most people don't even know how significant the point you're making is.
Mon Feb 19, 2018, 01:18 PM
Feb 2018

Total public debt paid off by 2009, but GWB and conservatives spent all of that away. So instead of America being a creditor nation, we're here at $20.6T and counting.

UCmeNdc

(9,600 posts)
9. The GOP is back! They are totally in control of spending and budgeting.
Mon Feb 19, 2018, 04:40 AM
Feb 2018

When will the voters learn that the GOP is nothing like what they campaign and slogan about. The GOP is the spend, spend, spend, party.

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