General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums***BREAKING*** Mueller indicts thirteen Russian nationals for U.S. elections meddling.
PER CNN
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,900 posts)it specifically says the Russians interfered with the election to aid the Trump campaign and disparage Clinton.
leftstreet
(36,117 posts)Seems that's the most important takeaway from all this
For months and months we've heard the terms 'interfered,' 'meddled' etc. Maybe now we can address EXACTLY what needs to be fixed to prevent this in the future
You can read the indictment here:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/16/russians-indicted-in-special-counsel-robert-muellers-probe.html
wishstar
(5,272 posts)Not just Facebook and Twitter, but they got Americans to participate in anti-Hillary rally events
dalton99a
(81,637 posts)NewJeffCT
(56,829 posts)associated with the Trump campaign...does that mean they're witless? Or half-wits?
getagrip_already
(14,893 posts)He didn't indict any americans intentionally. The statements only apply to the indictments, not the investigation.
Expect more indictments. There was also one plea deal, so someone has flipped.
suffragette
(12,232 posts)realize they were colluding with Russians.
Hope thats not an out they are being given.
paleotn
(17,989 posts)but 13 Russian nationals and 3 Russian entities are definitely ON the hook....along with Flynn, Gates, Mannafort and Papadopoulos. The investigation is no where near done.
suffragette
(12,232 posts)Response to suffragette (Reply #87)
Nitram This message was self-deleted by its author.
relayerbob
(6,561 posts)Quite the opposite. This is designed to corner the rats trying to escape the sinking ship
Nitram
(22,913 posts)Boomerproud
(7,970 posts)since she does the very same thing every day-in public.
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)She definitely spewed total bullshit on Clinton.
She's one of the "shitholes"
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,900 posts)MontanaMama
(23,357 posts)at every opportunity. Not a fan of Mrs. Greenspan here.
LiberalFighter
(51,170 posts)onecent
(6,096 posts)NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)Bleacher Creature
(11,258 posts)That probably sounds super weird.
Leghorn21
(13,527 posts)Swan Mueller III is the man with a plan!!
Bleacher Creature
(11,258 posts)NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)Read this now. And brace for the rest of today.
Bleacher Creature
(11,258 posts)paleotn
(17,989 posts)as future hammers fall. Along with the "closet" rapist, currently holed up in an Ecuadorian embassy closet in London.
Stardust1
(123 posts)Assange uses trolls to manipulate people while pretending to be all about truth. I despise that hypocritical, anti-semitic, anti-feminist, egotist. (If those those leaked Twitter messages of his private conversations are real.)
DFW
(54,448 posts)Although they only thought that about Sanders. They had no idea who Jill Stein was.
relayerbob
(6,561 posts)A lot of stuff coming from the fringes and the Stein group were associated with RT and other Russian groups. They were even more gullible (if fewer in number) than the Trumpites
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Watching coverage of it on MSNBC now.
mcar
(42,403 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)Le Gaucher
(1,547 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,900 posts)The real point was to establish that the Russian interference with the election was real and criminal and intended to benefit Trump.
spooky3
(34,498 posts)who was allegedly involved in an interest group. The contact allegedly urged the machine to focus on purple states.
getagrip_already
(14,893 posts)An individual pleaded guilty to a single count of identity theft. That means he/she is cutting a deal.
More to come.
Stryst
(714 posts)about stolen identities used to bypass the security restrictions on online payment services. I wonder how that links up with the Equifax hack?
NeoGreen
(4,031 posts)dalton99a
(81,637 posts)louis c
(8,652 posts)Ya, I wonder.
Don't be surprised if she doesn't get indicted in this whole thing. Just don't be surprised.
dalton99a
(81,637 posts)She was an accidental tourist, and the seating was also accidental - entirely accidental
Sneederbunk
(14,314 posts)OKNancy
(41,832 posts)Stein to weaken Hillary
sheshe2
(83,967 posts)Good to hear!
njhoneybadger
(3,910 posts)Mr. Ected
(9,673 posts)And soon we'll have the quo.
...kind of hard for Trump to say that Russia didn't meddle in our elections after these indictments. This is HUGE.
Afromania
(2,771 posts)[link:|
triron
(22,026 posts)Kingofalldems
(38,496 posts)Trump sidekicks must be shaking right now.
onenote
(42,782 posts)If not, they're basically untouchable.
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)Meadows, Lying Ryan, McTurtle, et al.
Kingofalldems
(38,496 posts)Joe941
(2,848 posts)to tRump!
MontanaMama
(23,357 posts)for her press briefing today, because all of this must be fake news.
Shrike47
(6,913 posts)octoberlib
(14,971 posts)to target. You know the GOP and Trump helped them out. This is gonna get interesting.
OhioBlue
(5,126 posts)By June the GOP nomination secured, Kushner took over all data-driven efforts. Within three weeks, in a nondescript building outside San Antonio, he had built what would become a 100-person data hub designed to unify fundraising, messaging and targeting. Run by Brad Parscale, who had previously built small websites for the Trump Organization, this secret back office would drive every strategic decision during the final months of the campaign. "Our best people were mostly the ones who volunteered for me pro bono," Kushner says. "People from the business world, people from nontraditional backgrounds."
Kushner structured the operation with a focus on maximizing the return for every dollar spent. "We played Moneyball, asking ourselves which states will get the best ROI for the electoral vote," Kushner says. "I asked, How can we get Trump's message to that consumer for the least amount of cost?" FEC filings through mid-October indicate the Trump campaign spent roughly half as much as the Clinton campaign did.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)Hekate
(90,867 posts)proudp55
(25 posts)Nevernose
(13,081 posts)Which I still think is a possibility. The Very Important People and the Very Important Thinkers who all know whats best for us still might let all the Trump bullshit slide to preserve faith in our democratic institutions or some such bullshit.
If you couldnt tell: Im just kind of cynical. Optimistic, but deeply cynical.
Maggiemayhem
(811 posts)Sophia4
(3,515 posts)Even if they don't indict Republicans who won their offices in part thanks to this interference, many if not most Americans will put 2 plus 2 together.
Republicans have a big, big, big, big problem.
In the future, candidates for office will have to be wary of interference in election campaigns like this.
This is just the first step. Wait and see.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)I came up with one good thing: my friends on the Left cant say Russia is just a distraction! Wheres the proof that Russia meddled? Theres no proof!
I see it among a certain crowd of Leftists all the time, especially on Twitter. I still read Glen Greenwald and appreciate his reporting. That certain crowd I just mentioned, though, read Greenwald completely uncritically and seemingly unaware of bias on the part of anyone they like.
BumRushDaShow
(129,669 posts)Link to tweet
TEXT
Benjamin Wittes
✔
@benjaminwittes
BOOM!!!https://www.justice.gov/file/1035477/download
12:55 PM - Feb 16, 2018 · Washington, DC
(I had to... )
Cartoonist
(7,323 posts)Over in freeperton they are celebrating. "The Russians supported Trump and disparaged Hillary. That's a crime? Is Mueller going to indict all republicans?"
They see this as Mueller's last gasp and that the investigation is over.
Of course they're idiots, but what exactly is the crime?
Kaleva
(36,361 posts)KY_EnviroGuy
(14,496 posts)I found on Chris Hayes' Twitter:
(snip)
"Theyre charged with essentially malicious electioneering funded by bank fraud and identity theft."
From the BBC:
(snip)
"Three of those named have been accused of conspiracy to commit wire fraud and five have been accused of aggravated identity theft. Three Russian companies are also named in the indictment."
See: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43092085
----------
I love the way the indictment goes into details of the methods they used. This should embarrass a lot of right-wingers that participated in these shenanigans (but probably not).
getagrip_already
(14,893 posts)Basically a treason charge, but for foreign entities.
Stardust1
(123 posts)I bet they're going to say things like: "Lol all this says is a few idiots were dumb enough to listen to some trolls. So what? They're just words, you can't arrest people for words. FIRST AMMENDMENT!"
Too bad for them the law won't see it that way. People are starting to get sick of lies and manipulation.
Takket
(21,645 posts)Please tell me we aren't going down the road of "it was all Russia and drumpf had no idea what was going on". We need him gone but don't see him being tied to Russia yet
StarryNite
(9,461 posts)I hope trump and his minions don't get a pass.
Stardust1
(123 posts)If the election was messed with does it invalidate it in the eyes of the law? What does that mean for Trumps presidency? Can anyone here clue me in?
mchill
(1,020 posts)The year Trump visited Russia for the Miss Universe pageant.
Maggiemayhem
(811 posts)klook
(12,171 posts)still_one
(92,454 posts)Russian involvement in the election?
sheshe2
(83,967 posts)still_one
(92,454 posts)C Moon
(12,223 posts)Trump is probably pulling his gross hair out.
Cracklin Charlie
(12,904 posts)Start the weekend off with a bang!
Now, to catch up...
C Moon
(12,223 posts)Stardust1
(123 posts)You mean that gross toupee?
HootieMcBoob
(3,823 posts)It will now be very difficult for a Trump and The GOP to denigrate or otherwise move to end or meddle in the investigation. And, any meddling in the investigation is evidence of Republican collusion in support of the Russians which as far as Im concerned amounts to treason.
C_U_L8R
(45,025 posts)GusBob
(7,286 posts)The FBI has just made moves to protect future elections
lark
(23,166 posts)What did they do? Protecting the next election is paramount, so really interested in anything that helps.
BoneyardDem
(1,202 posts)....doing nothing to protect our Democracy can no longer be ignored.
GusBob
(7,286 posts)Ty
HootieMcBoob
(3,823 posts)Fox News and every Right wing talking head have all been doing the bidding of Putin. Trump, Pence, Nunes, Ryan, McConnell, Grassley, Graham. All of them are guilty of treasonous behavior by enabling this.
getagrip_already
(14,893 posts)Watch them dance. I don't expect them to actually do anything, but they will be very scarce for a while.
paleotn
(17,989 posts)WhiteTara
(29,728 posts)How will we get our hands on them if they are out of country? Interpol? I want to see the perp walk.
getagrip_already
(14,893 posts)We will have to find someone left at the state department to request extradition.
It will take a while to find them though; soo many empty cubicles to search through.
cungar2000
(98 posts)The indictment also said that those charged staged political rallies inside the United States, posing as Americans and U.S. grassroots group. Some of them communicated with "unwitting individuals associated with the Trump Campaign and with other political activists to seek to coordinate political activities."
"unwitting" makes it sound like he's backing off Trump's campaign staff.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Fire him now and you are not just shutting down the investigation but prosecution. Two very different things.
I think Mueller is about to get very close to Trump with Gates plea deal which will soon be released. This gives him cover.
4nic8em
(482 posts)was specifically "THIS indictment", affording the possibility that other indictments may/will be forthcoming...
Cosmocat
(14,575 posts)First, ignorance is not necessarily a defense under the law.
Second, this is a pretty decisive statement proving that 1) Russia did act purposefully to influence the election AND 2) DO SO IN FAVOR OF 45.
In the context of indictments of the Flynn et all, this adds, in a fairly big way, another element, specific to the election.
NOW, it isn't there, and we have to wait and see, but if you do 1 plus 1 with all the indictments to see where it is going ...
NewJeffCT
(56,829 posts)may have directed the Russian operatives to contact certain people within the Trump campaign knowing that these persons had no knowledge they were Russians, and thus had deniability when it came to knowing who they were and where they were from.
I highly doubt it is a coincidence that these 13 indictments came within 24 hours of Gates agreeing to a plea deal with Mueller. Gates likely hooked up Mueller with the people on Team Trump that did know the IRA was Russian and supporting Trump.
wiggs
(7,819 posts)contacts with Russians?
So they've identified WHO AND HOW the russians helped Trump....Next up...WHY
Turbineguy
(37,375 posts)That pretty much describes the trump administration.
cungar2000
(98 posts)They can just claim ignorance.
Turbineguy
(37,375 posts)Agent Orange can't fire them now.
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)In The Office of POTUS. Period!
R B Garr
(16,995 posts)be rioting over this if the shoe was on the other foot.
Glimmer of Hope
(5,823 posts)Catherine Vincent
(34,491 posts)spooky3
(34,498 posts)But unfortunately, if the perps are not in the US, there isn't much the prosecutors can do.
R B Garr
(16,995 posts)I forget her name, but she helped prosecute Watergate.
spooky3
(34,498 posts)R B Garr
(16,995 posts)She is fantastic.
MontanaMama
(23,357 posts)She knows her stuff.
R B Garr
(16,995 posts)hard to forget, but then I forget again, lol.
spooky3
(34,498 posts)MontanaMama
(23,357 posts)what it must have been like for her to be a woman prosecutor in Watergate way back then? I often think of her and wonder about her experiences through that process. She must have some amazing stories!!
R B Garr
(16,995 posts)been very young then, too, and held her own among those legal stalwarts. I would love to hear her stories.
C_U_L8R
(45,025 posts)of Russians singing to the Grand Jury.
Trump is caught in middle and the big squeeze is coming next.
Even more genius, there is no reasonable
way that Trump can fire Mueller now.
Lazy Daisy
(928 posts)Put your seatbelts on kiddos, this ride's about to get bumpy!
GusBob
(7,286 posts)If so Mueller has done a great service to our nation and far more than congress or Trump has done
OnDoutside
(19,982 posts)spooky3
(34,498 posts)"more shoes to drop."
shraby
(21,946 posts)gademocrat7
(10,676 posts)nolabels
(13,133 posts)I have noticed with people breaking the law and the government enforcing the law on non-violent crimes it seems to be a ratio of 10 to 1 all the way to a 10,000 to 1 on the enforcement of the law. So is there any idea of how many foreign agents screwing around in the US anyway?
Sam McGee
(347 posts)VLADIMIR: THE SHIT HAS HIT THE FAN!!! SEND LAWYERS, GUNS, MONEY, AND BLOW!!!!
Exotica
(1,461 posts)NewJeffCT
(56,829 posts)in my opinion
Liberty Belle
(9,538 posts)HootieMcBoob
(3,823 posts)bigbrother05
(5,995 posts)With indicted Russians, they will build the web of connections between US politicians and Russian operatives.
Maybe the NRA and GOP Super PACs will be the next links.
trueblue2007
(17,242 posts)getagrip_already
(14,893 posts)So no. Treason can only be charged against a us citizen.
But now, a legal statement of war exists; cyber war, but still, the use of war is a standard not seen before.
So maybe when all the indictments are in, it will be a possibility.
flibbitygiblets
(7,220 posts)Mueller is shrewd to indict the Russians at this point. All the "Russia Hoax/Witch Hunt" crap is now proven to be false (to anyone with two synapses left to rub together). Trump and his Fox allies won't be able to discredit the FBI & intelligence any more or he'll really look desperate.
And let's not gloss over that there's now a clear path to save our democratic election process.
Fear not, resisters! This is NOT the end of the investigation--more shoes are going to drop. We still have Manafort, Flynn, Gates, Pappadapolous in the hot seat (and in the process of being flipped and/or prosecuted), the whole "security clearance-gate" scandal...don't forget tRump's fricking Lester Holt confession about firing Comey, and orchestrating the cover story for the June meetings with Russians in Trump Tower, Flynn's assurances to the Russians that sanctions wouldn't be enforced (and they haven't been), the money-laundering, at least a few of tRump's dumb-ass kids are probably going to get indicated eventually...
And for President Pussygrabber himself? At the end of this national nightmare, there's going to be, at the very least, "unindicted co-conspirator" status for that asshole. All but the most rabid tRump fan will realize he's grossly incompetent, (and that's the charitable interpretation). His chances of re-election are circling the drain, and that's not going to change.
klook
(12,171 posts)As much as we all want Drumpf to go down asap, really the best scenario is for him to hang like a rotting albatross around the neck of every Republican through Nov. 2018, as the catalogue of criminal cases against the GOP-Kremlin cabal continues to build.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,178 posts)If Mueller had started with either Trump or even any of his co-conspirators, the Republicans could use that, along with Hannity, Rush, etc...to bolster their pity party for the Groper in Chief.
This forces them to take a stand. Either side with these Russians being charged, or side with the intelligence services, and American law. There is no poor witch-hunted Republican to cry about. (yet) And hopefully, enough will come from this first step to open the door to a few more Republicans mentally prepared, or politically prepared, to finally turn their backs on their orange fuckwit of a President, once charges of some of their peers come to fruition.
Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)but confirmed their confirmation bias against Hillary.
Fact checking the claims, and pointing out the nefarious sources led to accusations of "How can you SUPPORT THIS????" and "Go collect your paycheck from Correct the Record, Hilbot!!!" responses.
I don't expect apologies, of course.
blue-wave
(4,369 posts)Waiting for the rest of the indictments. This will be a very interesting year.
llmart
(15,557 posts)Will our mainstream media outlets have 24/7 new coverage of this "Crisis in America" like they did when they were persecuting Bill Clinton for a consensual sexual relationship with another adult? I will never forget how every TV broadcast led with some version of the "Constitutional Crisis" or daily newspapers giving every salacious detail on a daily basis for weeks on end.
Are they going to call this a "Crisis" and put it out there front and center day after day and explain it in terms that the average American can understand?
I highly doubt it.
orangecrush
(19,645 posts)Enoki33
(1,588 posts)as vindication. The consensus seems to be he is, and has been, behaving like a defendant and not as president.
flibbitygiblets
(7,220 posts)Where's the outrage, where's the condemnation that our country was attacked (his actual job, ironically)? Nope, just self-protection, shifting, blaming, and (interestingly, finally) seeming acknowledgment that this electing hacking actually happened.
Because if our incompetent pussygrabbing president had his way, these indictments against Russians would NOT be happening. He'd still be pushing the "Fake Gnus" denials. During the debates his explanation was "It could be a 400# kid in NJ", but crickets since then on the subject. Since he was installed, the only things worth spending time and money on are deporting brown-skinned people, taking healthcare from poor people, and giving money to rich white people, including himself.
Enoki33
(1,588 posts)it about himself. The irony is that pivot shows him to be the beneficiary of a extraordinarily well orchestrated attack on our country. An attack that is ongoing and threatens the fabric of our democracy. His reaction disqualifies him for the position he temporarily holds.
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)Not a lawyer, but this is how I see this:
Those so called "unwitting" dupes can be questioned. Their activities can be scrutinized. Courts can issue subpoenas since the information will be needed for cases against the 13 indicted Russian nationals.
The Americans will be questioned under oath without any need for "probable cause" because they will be witnesses in a case. While looking into the Russian's crimes, Mueller will almost certainly uncover crimes committed by the American contacts. Willing to bet that he and his team already have a good idea of which of the "unwitting" dupes are guilty of what and know exactly where to look and these indictments (which will not be heavily challenged, why would they be if these guys are all in Russia?) can lead to lots of new evidence gathering activity. And since they are not being charged (yet) with any crimes, Mueller can question them without letting them know what they are suspected of doing. So they ought to be really scared. Better lawyer up.
So basically, Mueller never expects jail time for the 13 Russians under indictment but their investigations will allow him to pursue Americans. And I don't think that Trump will be able to pardon any of the Russians. It would not look good. The most he can do is not ask for extradition (which he won't). Bt that won't stop the investigations.
DeminPennswoods
(15,290 posts)picked Trump from the get-go. I knew Putin hated Clinton because he thought she helped foment opposition to him and wasn't surprised to have it validated that Putin did try to damage her election chances. It didn't really surprise me that Putin tried to help Trump after he became the GOP nominee.
But I was surprised that the Russians actively worked to help Trump during the primary.
I recall that RNC computers were hacked, too. Although none of whatever the Russians got became public, I wonder if that info helped direct Russia toward Trump as the person most likely to wreck havoc on America or gave them ideas on how to attack Cruz and Rubio. The Russian plan was pretty audacious and maybe when they realized they caught lightning in a bottle with Trump, they geared up and went all in.