Tried the Amazon Go grocery store in Seattle today

[Kilgore]

What a strange and odd experience. I walked in, grabbed a sandwich, chips and a drink and just walked out. Everything was charged to my Amazon account. Decided I needed some chocolate to top it off, and again just walked in grabbed a Hershey bar and walked out.

I know there is some heavy tech involved, but it just looks like magic while your there. The hardest part was overcoming the feeling I was shoplifting.

If you are not aware of the store, check this out.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2018/01/21/amazon-set-open-its-grocery-store-without-checkout-line-public/1048492001/

[democratisphere]

1. People need jobs. If few have jobs, who will shop at Amazon Go?!

Technology gone too far? I think so!

[LenaBaby61]

2. People need jobs. If few have jobs, who will shop at Amazon Go?!

IKR ....

[sarcasmo]

4. UBI now.

Universal Basic Income

[RandomAccess]

6. Exactly.

[moondust]

7. +1

Until then, I'll continue checking out with live cashiers who need jobs rather than using self-checkout lanes.

[Kittycow]

15. I make it a point to do that as well.

[Petrushka]

56. Same here!

As my late husband used to say, "If they want me to do my own checking out, they'll have to pay me or give me a lower price on everything."

[Adrahil]

37. "Technology gone toofar?" That's been a mantra for centuries.

What are suggestions. Laws prohibiting the development of certain technologies?

C'mon. That's like King Cnut commanding the tide to not come in. The answer isn't some knee-jerk reaction to protect jobs which are becoming obsolete, but to develop industries and jobs that are emerging. And to explore options like UBI. But you are NOT going to be able to stop the development of technology. Water wheel blast furnaces replaced individual bloomeries. Industrial looms replaced cottage weavers. Precision machinery replaced individual craftsmen fastioning parts. The fact of the matter is that unskilled jobs are being replaced by automation. That's not going to stop. The only thing that would stop it is if people choose not to use such services. For example, I will not eat in table service restaurants where I have to order from a pad on my table. I want a live, speaking waiter. That's one reason I want to go out... the social interaction. But grocery stores? Heck, I just want my stuff and go.... and the check out line is the WORST.

[democratisphere]

39. Reality check!

Robots and automation don't eat sandwiches and don't drink cokes. The quest for more almighty dollars can actually backfire if humans have no jobs and by extension no money to buy the stuff. Patience in a checkout line is a virtue.

[Adrahil]

43. And yet, we've heard that for CENTURIES.

And yet, the world develops and moves on. The standard of living continues to increase worldwide.

I'm not saying we don't have to be prepared. WE need to develop industries and jobs that are emerging.

And we have to face the very real possibility that we are reaching a point where there are more people than jobs, and what we do about that (UBI, or whatever).

In the meantime, ensure your kids are learning a skill that will not be easily replaced by machines in their lifetimes.

[kcr]

49. There is no skill that's safe.

Yeah, the world turns. But the pace of technology development has not been consistent and steady for centuries. It has been rapidly accelerating, particularly in the last two decades. You could not be more wrong that it's always been the same and ever thus. You can tell your kids to learn a skill and by the time they've mastered it, it is obsolete. The answer is not that everyone just has to keep learning new skills, or telling people to somehow predict which skill will stick around awhile and learn that one. Especially in the US with our screwed up education system. That's a sure-fire way to guarantee that we have nothing but masses of underskilled and unemployed/underemployed people.

[Adrahil]

59. So... what's your plan?

I mean, I hear a whole bunch of belly-aching and no solutions.

Some jobs will be safe for a long time. These are jobs that will require expert judgement and decision making. Professional jobs, many technical jobs, and creative jobs. Is there a guarantee? No, but no one is going to replace engineers all that soon. Same with lawyers, and teachers, and plumbers and electricians, and performers in the arts.

Are those jobs absolutely safe? Noope. But one thing I can guarantee that WON'T work is trying to prevent this change from happening. It's the same kind of mentality that leads coal miners to keep hoping their jobs will come back. Ain't gonna happen. Adapt or die.

If you think you can stop it, let's hear your proposal.

[kcr]

82. Bellyaching?

All I've seen are explanations of a real concern. If you are actually interested there are indeed many solutions to this topic, one that has been discussed at length many times, by many people at various institutions and publications. Just one example is Universal Basic Income, or UBI. None of this is anything new.

[Adrahil]

86. Yes.... I generally deplore hand-wringing without a proposed solution.

I dunno.... I'm an advocate of the old "if you complain about a problem, propose a reasonable solution" adage.

I advocated for exploring UBI. That may be necessary as no and low-skill jobs are eliminated as automation comes in.

But this change WILL come.

[democratisphere]

50. Humans have done the work for not only hundreds but thousands of years.

Robots, automation and artificial intelligence are replacing humans at a new record pace. The past is meaningless in this automation age of today and tomorrow. The standard of living is not increasing in the USA with stagnant wages and ever higher prices for everything. It is no longer the cost of living, but the cost of existing. Worldwide populations continue to increase compounding and confounding the problem. UBI will never happen because the wealthiest insist on acquiring all of the wealth and don't care if anything is left for the masses. Watson (AI) will take the place of many thinking types of jobs. This situation is nothing to slough off or ignore.

[Adrahil]

60. Yes they are.

And did I suggest ignoring it? I did not. I said acknowledge it's happening and adjust for it now. If you think you can regulate jobs into safety, you are kidding yourself.

[Kilgore]

72. Well Put!!!

Technology will march on. The key is to be prepared for change and keep adding to your skills toolbox.

[forgotmylogin]

58. I think there will still be jobs...

I sincerely doubt this kind of store is left unattended. They need greeters, people to help when your phone doesn't scan, and probably lots of people to re-stock constantly. I think it just moves people away from being cashiers. Most convenience stores are going to only have one or two cashiers at any given time at the most.

Heck...Aldi runs a medium-sized grocery store with probably three people during normal operating volumes. They're a model of efficiency. They can probably afford two or three stores in the same radius that one giant grocery chain serves.

For Amazon Go to be completely omnipresent, there needs to be one on every other block like Starbucks, thus spreading the same employes around a few locations instead of them all working in one big one.

This is hopeful speculation on my part. I could be wrong.

[Demsrule86]

70. very few jobs...greedy corporations won't feed them.

[X_Digger]

83. Buggy Whips Union 101 local, represent! n/t

[AJT]

3. Kind of evil brilliant. Psychologically it's easier to charge items on a charge card

than to spend hard cash, think of how much easier it is to walk into a store and walk out with items and not even use a card.

[Kilgore]

5. I agree, the grab and go aspect is very scarey

At the same time the experience was just amazing from a tech standpoint, unnerving by upsetting the traditional shop and pay experience, and scary from the social aspects if the tech catches on, and I think it will.

Based on the arc of tech seen so far, these stores will be the norm in less than ten years.

Kilgore

[RandomAccess]

8. I found it somewhat unnerving just to watch.

Really. I felt like I was missing something -- a little like the feeling when suddenly you realize you don't have your purse on your arm, where is it?

[Kilgore]

10. Unnerving is exactly the right word for it

It was a weird feeling to just walk out.

But again, looking at the arc of tech so far, our kids, grandkids will wonder what a checker is. Have already had the experience of having to explain what a payphone is to my grandson He had never experienced anything but a cellphone which I am sure in his mind is only used for texting.

[appalachiablue]

12. Can't miss the bulk of hardware & cameras above. Ick.

Investment in millions for tech not humans. The Way of the Future, coming Now..

Mucho change and misery for many, others benefit hugely.

UBI, in this country?

[turnitup]

27. hmmm

how does one steal?

[appalachiablue]

29. No idea, not what I was thinking of, just the quantity of tech utilized.

[Adrahil]

40. Someone has to design, build, soce and maintain that equipment.

But that will take skilled labor, rather than the unskilled labor that normally staffs these places. Also, I'd think some customer service folks will probably be used regardless.

[appalachiablue]

52. Understood as far as skilled labor necessary for the equipment.

It would be useful for many less skilled/customer service workers to remain for a number of reasons, security and assistance foremost.
What happens to the many who will lose jobs in the meantime, where do they go? is a real dilemma.

If we're to maintain any semblance of civilization, esp. here, UBI is a necessity. It will require tremendous effort by regular Americans and many, many wealthy on board with it. UBI and universal healthcare have to happen, sooner than later and we must remain hopeful, all I know.

[joshcryer]

67. Those aren't necessarily high skill jobs.

The meat of these systems is machine learning, and the generalized nature of the devices probably doesn't require a high level of calibration, just lots of data inputs. Spam the locations with cameras and RFID readers and you're done.

Also, once the main system is complete you can deploy it effortlessly across the country, and you can probably hire low level technicians to do it, I am talking uneducated vo-tech guys could do this. It's more a matter of screwing in devices than it is calibrating highly sensitive equipment. From what I understand the stores have thousands, yes, thousands of small cameras tracking objects. They just put them everywhere and the machine learning algorithms track it.

(Obviously you will have some high tech guy to come in and make sure the system is operating nominally, but that's a remote job more than it is a local one. Think someone who works installing soda machines or whatever, those guys are busy fellows, singularly responsible for hundreds of stores, alone; like one guy handles hundreds of stores.)

[Gabi Hayes]

75. Either are these!

We don’ need no steenkin’ teachers!

T

[redwitch]

26. If I went with you and walked very closely would my food be paid for by you?

I like to shop with people. I won’t use the self check out lanes either.

[turnitup]

33. so that is how one

would steal! I knew I would figure it out

[dixiegrrrrl]

9. Very easy to see a few negative outcomes of this.

Computer glitches leading to over billing
Susceptible impulse buyers paying dearly for a lesson...hopefully a lesson.

Waiting for the hackers to figure out the holes in the system. If Amazon is smart, they will pay them to figure it out.

[joshcryer]

65. They actually have an honor system, if you see something on your charges...

...you can have it removed. At will.

Just say "I didn't buy that" and they just assume you're correct.

It's almost communist in its simplicity and beauty.

[eppur_se_muova]

11. And when there's an utterably inexplicable error on your bill -- how do you fix it ?

&w=1484

[Kilgore]

13. Swipe it away!!!!!

How often does the system make mistakes? Puerini wouldn’t go into it, beyond saying “the system is highly accurate.”

If there is an error, Puerini says, customers can swipe on an item on their receipt within the Amazon Go app to remove a charge for something they didn’t take.

[Buns_of_Fire]

19. So if you swipe something, you can swipe ON it to prove you DIDN'T swipe it!

But if you swipe ON it, it means you have it in your possession, which means that you DID swipe it! Sort of. Kind of. One way or the other. It depends on what the meaning of "is" is.

Three such occurrences like this, and you're automatically recruited for a high-level position in the White House.

[dixiegrrrrl]

61. I read that sentence differently.

Actually, 3 times, to understand it, it is confusing.

He is saying you can swipe where an item shows up on your receipt. Apparently a smart phone app.shows you the receipt and allows leeway to remove charges.

Obviously being able to erase a charge for something you took is gonna be a problem for Amazon in the near future..

[Buns_of_Fire]

85. You're right. I was jes' goofin' around, playing with it.

I'm sure there'll be some bugs (or, as they say, "features" ) to be worked out of it. But if any company can afford a few missteps along the way, it's Amazon.

[Snake Plissken]

14. I'm going to give it a try at one of the local supermarkets here and see how it works out.

[kcr]

16. Aside from the issue of jobs loss, which I don't mean to minimize

I'm the kind of person where if I go shopping with a friend and pick up something I'm interested in, I'll forget I'm holding it after awhile while as we're yakking away and if they don't buy something I'll cluelessly walk right out of the store still holding it.
So, this paradigm shift will scramble my brains and I'll possibly end up in jail.

[Iggo]

23. I was like that.

That stack of little arm baskets by the entry was a godsend to me.

[Egnever]

36. Have done the same thing myself too many times

It isn't like it happens all the time but I have definitely walked out with something in my hand unintended many times over the course of my lifetime. It usually happens when I am with other people and am distracted.

Maybe this is the solution ?

[kcr]

41. I was thinking the opposite

If I went to a store like that too many times and got used to walking out without checking out, I'd never be able to go to any other kind of store again because I'd get too used to it. Mainly I was just making fun of myself

[Egnever]

44. I hear ya

was just thinking as someone who is absent minded himself maybe if all stores went this way you and I and people like us would never find ourselves out in the parking lot face palming ourselves waiting to be tackled.

[MineralMan]

45. Occasionally, I get to my car and find

something in the shopping cart that didn't get on the belt to be scanned. Usually it's something small that fell to the back of the cart and I missed it. When that happens, I return to the store and usually pay for it at the customer service desk. The person working there always expresses surprise when I tell him or her that I missed that when checking out.

I guess not many people go back in and pay. I do.

[kcr]

46. Who said anything about not paying?

I've never not paid. In fact, I only actually made it out of the store one time and I turned right back around and paid for the item. Usually, someone with me will notice that I still have the item before we've made it to the door.

[MineralMan]

48. I wasn't accusing. Not at all.

[appalachiablue]

80. A neighbor friend of relatives, middle aged woman who works for the Navy

career civil service mgmt., was at a well known big box store a few years ago. She'd just moved into a new home, purchased a lot of stuff, paid and left. At her car in the parking lot, two local policemen suddenly appeared. It was a matter of houseplants, two to be exact.

The plants were in the lower shelf of the cart as normal, but the store clerk had forgot to charge for them. Nothing the woman said could appease the authorities, including explaining the error and offering to pay numerous times.

The police took the woman in, booked her and put her in jail. The digital record is still online, and she's one unhappy camper, no surprise. Soon after this the FL house was sold, she moved back to MD and hasn't been heard of much.

>Point: All it usually takes is one time to be canned for absent-minded 'shoplifting'- unless cooler and luckier than some!

[kcr]

81. thanks n/t

[pnwmom]

20. They say that at least 40% of jobs are on their way out in ten years or so,

and in this revolution there won't be a ton of new jobs replacing them.

So you might not be unnerved, but plenty of us are.

[BannonsLiver]

21. Oh no, they again.

They are always out there. They are always up to something. They will destroy us. Classic Luddite thinking.

[LanternWaste]

24. entertainment in reducing and trivializing the concerns of others to "luddite thinking."

I imagine a mean spirit finds petulant entertainment in reducing and trivializing the concerns of others to "luddite thinking."

I also imagine it's quickly rationalized it as something else to better validate their own sense of character... regardless of whether someone alleges without evidence that it "will destroy us."

Classic, indeed.

[LexVegas]

31. Luddites call it "being a douchebag". nt

[WillowTree]

35. And did you notice that "they" never shut up?

[appalachiablue]

34. Luddites and buggywhip devotees terms are so stale, there need

to be some new, more original ones! IMO.

Many justified concerns arise with these kind of changes, namely the massive loss of jobs.

In earlier times of obsolescence and disruption, it could be difficult to find new employment and transition, but not impossible for most people.

Rapidly advancing technology combined with destruction of the social safety system, the rising cost of housing & healthcare esp. in the US, along with other negatives will truly create serious, life threatening circumstances for millions. No joking matter. UBI, we'll see.

[joshcryer]

66. It's important to recognize the coming changes, and advocate for UBI.

Which I have been doing for something like a decade here.

Finally people are catching up.

But as usual the government will lag heavily behind.

A lot of people will die unnecessarily because of this, a lot of people will suffer.

[Kilgore]

73. What revolution?

Did I miss something?

[NCTraveler]

22. I'm with you. Just didn't want to type it.

[kcr]

42. Concern about the effects of automation on labor has nothing to do with Luddite thinking.

At least not the way you're framing it. It's not a fear of technology. Many raising the alarm are in fact experts in the field of technology.

[BannonsLiver]

64. It absolutely does.

Luddites destroyed machinery because they feared technology's effects on their jobs. There is no better application of the term.

[kcr]

84. Your post had nothing to do with that and you know it.

People use the term Luddite now to make fun of people who hate technology and that was clearly how you were using it.

[hunter]

53. The automobile culture is one of the ghastliest things ever created...

... ranking right up there with cigarettes, automatic weapons, and cluster bombs.

A car wreck ***should*** be unnerving.

The most unnerving thing about this kind of grocery store is the loss of privacy.

I'm not looking forward to the day I get an automated call from my health insurance company telling me to back off on the potato chips.

Or worse, having Alexa shush me off when I touch them on the shelf. "Tsk, tsk, Hunter, you know what your doctor said..."

On the other hand, you could have corporate entities appealing to your worst vices... "psst, psst, Hunter, over there, sale on kettle fried Jalapeño chips today, just for you!"

All sorts of dystopias become possible with this technology.

[dixiegrrrrl]

62. The insurance industry is already pushing for that idea.

Not a lot of talk yet about how many companies have access to ever growing databases of info. about people.
But there is no way companies, businesses, and governments are going to ignore such tempting info.

[BannonsLiver]

63. "All sorts of dystopias become possible with this techonology"

True of virtually all technology. The A-bomb comes to mind.

[joshcryer]

68. This is the most concerning thing, right here.

I have a Smiths card and I have some foods that I like a lot (more like a monthly thing but I eat them regularly). I started getting coupons in the mail with these same foods I like, very nice discounts (I love shrimp for instance, and I would get a 10% off coupon for the same brand of shrimp I buy). They know everything I buy when I swipe my card for that discount that adds up and the gas credits I get. I do it because I get those credits. I kinda forget that they are tracking literally everything I eat. So Amazon Go will have the largest most comprehensive data-set of food purchasing behavior analysis possible.

And now Amazon has decided it wants to get into the health care industry.

The key to health care is, unfortunately in our current environment, dietary.

Add machine learning into the mix, algorithmic dietary and health relations, your entire existence will be rendered nothing more than a carefully controlled machine. They want to sell foods with low cost high sugar content? Give you discounts on some foods you wouldn't normally buy and raise the price on foods that you would buy. A totally customized shopping experience. Price tags that adjust in real time when you're around the area. Put the words "personal discount!" on it. Remember those coupons I would get? Same deal.

It will be convenient. You will feel good to be making these purchasing decisions. Indeed, you may in fact, even after introspection, even after considering what they've done as you walk down the isle giving you "discounts" not care that they're doing this to you. It won't be a negative thing like Alexa telling you not to eat greasy potato chips, it'll be Alexa promoting you to eat baked potato chips one week, maybe some delicious flavored rice cakes, you won't really be hurt by it.

And in that way, they will still be able to sell you garbage, while also keeping your insurance rates down, because the next week they will give you discounts on the healthy foods! It's incredibly devious and the most scary part is that the system in place probably isn't nefarious, it's people on one hand going "hey we use our data to monitor the health of people and give appropriate insurance rates" and other people, within the same organization, going "hey we have insurance data and that will have useful data on what food products to sell."

I really don't know how to feel about this. I want AI but I don't want corporate domination and I certainly don't want AI manipulating our very existence.

[Demsrule86]

71. No jobs are unnerving.

[BannonsLiver]

78. What's that? I can't hear you over the hyperbole.

[Demsrule86]

79. What's that I can 't hear you over the greedy demands of giant rich corporations who want to cut

jobs and make the customer work for the dubious pleasure of buying their shit...so they can make even more money than they do and their apologist shouting how if one wants to have a human being wait on them and bag the groceries that they are luddites...pretty funny that since one of the things I do to earn my bread is fix computers.

[DeminPennswoods]

18. Local TV station consumer reporter did a story

on comparison shopping a range of items at Amazon and Wal-Mart. To my surprise, Wal-Mart was cheaper on almost every product except a couple of tech items. Sooner rather than later, modern trust-busters are going to make Amazon the face of all that's wrong with corporations, just as their early 20th century counterparts did with Standard Oil.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

25. No. Just no.

Sorry.

The whole thing skeeves me out and I'm not exactly sure why. But it does.

[Hoyt]

28. At first, I didn't like self-service gas stations, self-service check outs, PayPal, etc.

But, it's difficult to stop technology.

I too think some kind of basic income is going to be necessary, and a lot sooner than many imagined.

In addition, people who don't have a lot of skills are going to have to get trained for something else -- and I don't know what that is and how it will be done and paid for -- as much as possible.

For those in transition to this new reality, life is going to be particularly scary. Even more scary with GOPers in charge.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

30. I think it depends on the product being sold.

For instance, gas is gas. Other than handling the pump, you don't actually take anything physically. It goes from the pump to your gas tank, and is then promptly used in your engine.

So I never had much of an issue with self-serve gas pumps.

Self-serve check outs are a bit different, just because at this point they haven't been perfected to the point where I see a benefit over checking out with a human cashier. I try to use a human cashier as much as possible, but there have been occasions where situations have me go to the self-serve check out lines. And I've found that it's about 50/50 between the transaction going smoothly without any problem, and something inevitably not scanning right and having to call over an associate who will have to scan it. And it completely defeats the purpose of going around the human cashier line, so why even bother? Recently I was in Target and there were about 4-5 people in line for the cashier and they had an associate come over and say that self-checkout lanes were open. And no one budged from line. So I can't be the only person with these issues.

Food service is similar. Recently I was in McDonalds. They had both the cashier at the front, as well as a couple of kiosks. But because the kiosk ordering wasn't necessarily as self-explanatory as you'd think, they actually stationed a worker by the kiosk to guide customers through their order. And no joke, it literally took twice as long for people to use the kiosk as using the human clerk. So again, it completely defeated the purpose. And food is a particular thing because people will always have specialty orders, they'll always have to have human assembly of those orders and frequently something will get lost in translation. I see no benefit in complicating the situation further than it already is.

Unless I am physically disabled, I see no benefit whatsoever in ordering groceries and having them delivered. I like to see what I am buying. Especially food. So unless I'm bedridden, I'll pass on that.

For that matter--and I realize I am going against the grain here--I'm not a fan of online shopping unless it's an item that's particularly hard to find in stores. You have no idea how many times Amazon has screwed up an order for me--I'll order something, and it either comes late, or doesn't come at all, or is the wrong item, many different reasons. I like the security of seeing what I want in person, paying money for it, and immediately having it. Some things--such as airline tickets, sporting/entertainment events--are fine because you're not getting a physical product. But when I am buying a physical product, I like to have quality control. Online shopping doesn't allow for this, and as such, I've never been a huge fan of online shopping.

[crazycatlady]

55. what is this self service gas you speak of?

(NJ resident)

[Hoyt]

57. I forgot there are a few states that don't allow it.

[samnsara]

32. i need to run to seattle to try that!

...soon as the pass clears up...

[Kilgore]

74. Dont go anytime near lunch

Early or late is best, much less crowded.

[Blue_true]

38. I would not feel comfortable shopping there.

How do they keep track of who is paying for what? As soon as thieves figure out the tech, I see problems. Say I am walking out with stuff that I paid for, but a thief gaslight me and I get stopped while the thief walks out with stolen stuff.

[Hortensis]

47. Just walking out would combat a lifetime's experience.

I just bet that felt odd. Now wait until people get used to it and start just walking out of other stores, innocently and not so.

[Kilgore]

77. Have used the store a bunch this week since its close

In Seattle for work this week and its just down the street. It was a very weird experience at first, but not now. In fact its super quick, think of just going into your pantry and getting something.

The hard part is remembering the charges are hitting your account. There is no pulling out your wallet to remind you.

[LisaM]

51. I don't think I'd enjoy it. Even the products look high tech (and overly packaged).

I actually like grocery shopping, and I don't rush through it like something that's just a chore. I want to examine my produce, check the size of my cuts of meat or cheese, look for a good wine that's on sale....

Fortunately, just a few blocks away from this seemingly visceral-free shopping experience is the Pike Place Market, where you can choose from mountains of fresh food, chat with vendors, do some people-watching, and just enjoy the sights, sounds, and smells that should go along with the experience of shopping for food. I'll be there later today, choosing my own crusty bread, my own romaine, some good wine, and all the other things I might need to make my Valentine's Day dinner for my sweetie tonight.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

54. I am likewise a bit suspicious that everything will be charged correctly.

But even if that's not ever going to happen, I want to first find out about the quality of the pre-made sandwiches. I've never found one to be very good.

But perhaps more to the point, without even being informed on the way out of what the charges are, people will rack up charges a bit too blithely. All of those who absolutely swear it is not possible for a normal human being to save any money probably use their debit card for virtually every purchase, never set any sort of a budget for themselves, and are probably oblivious to how much money they are really spending. Stores like this will only make it worse.

[Demsrule86]

69. I will never shop in this store...never.

[Siwsan]

76. I won't even use the 'self-check out' lines at stores

I enjoy human interaction.