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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsLack of Support Among Union Members for Democrats
I spent about six years of my life as a Union worker in the South. A big problem that Hillary Clinton had, especially in my neck of the woods, is that a number of the union workers that would normally support a Democratic candidate supported Trump. I saw that happen among my co-workers and colleges. Many of them are now cold to Trump, but are still not receptive to the Democratic opposition. My real question is "why"?
There's something that many of them want that is not just a 15 dollar minimum wage. I know that's popular in Southern Unions, because most of them make between 12 to 16 dollars an hour, but in areas like Michigan and Wisconsin where union workers are making more then 15 dollars an hour, it is not receptive.
How do we bring these workers back into the fold?
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)late.
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)Any ideas?
Demsrule86
(68,632 posts)to the working man. Sherrod Brown should run for president with Joe Kennedy III as vice President if we get a Democratic governor this year in Ohio. In eight years Joe runs with a woman VP maybe from a rustbelt state...this gives the country eight years to lose some of the sexism that helped defeat Hillary.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)be the stupidest people on the face of the planet.
I do not know how you would turn around such imbeciles, but soon the question will be moot. That Supreme Court case is going to go against unions, and your union colleagues will all find themselves in "right to work" plants where they are making $7 an hour.
And they are stupid enough to help that happen.
elleng
(131,063 posts)STUPID.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)enough how valuable their union was after it disappears as a result of their vote.
But thanks for the chastisement. That's helpful too.
quartz007
(1,216 posts)an Executive order by the POTUS. Because right to organize a union is an existing law, and only a bill passed in congress and signed by the POTUS can take that right away. Very unlikely!
Squinch
(50,990 posts)union membership as a condition of employment.
That will make RTW national and will destroy the vast majority of unions. And yes, it's highly likely.
The last time the issue came before the court, we squeaked by because Alito had just died. Now we have Gorsuch. We will lose.
It has nothing to do with an executive order.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)Right now, all public sector employees, if they are not actually members of the unions, must pay a fee (typically less than union dues) to pay for the union's negotiating on their behalf. Now, they are not actually members in that there are some member benefits they do not get (like voting for officers), but they get many others. The argument being used is that the fee payers disagree with the unions politically and so, should have to support those activities. The work-around was to have them pay for only negotiating activities. But for the whiners that is not good enough and so they sued. They want to be free of all payments, yet still somehow benefit from the union. Closed shops are forbidden by law.
In practice this would do what you said, essentially eliminate public-sector unions. But I don't think it would apply to unions in general, unless there is another case out there that I am unaware of.
StevieM
(10,500 posts)standingtall
(2,786 posts)there is something called freedom to assemble in the first amendment to prevent congress from abolishing unions through legislation.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)to require union membership as a condition of employment.
In the vast majority of places where this has happened (Right to Work) unions have disappeared.
The last time this issue came before the court, Alito had just died and the unions won.
Now Gorsuch has replaced Alito. The likelihood is that unions will lose.
tonyt53
(5,737 posts)Right-to-work IS the same as killing unions from the inside out. I think some people think that an employer pays them what they do because they value them. Not even remotely. They do it because unions fought the fight and have elevated wages through collective bargaining. I've said many time that the day after the last union shuts its doors, is the day that wages are cut across the country. It isn't the worker most employers value. It is the money.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)I think of all the results of the Trump(R) administration, this is the one that will ultimately kill Democracy if the expected decision comes down and we don't find a way to override it.
It's as destructive to our system as Citizen's United was.
standingtall
(2,786 posts)but they do not abolish unions by them itself although they do make it harder to organize.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)standingtall
(2,786 posts)Unions still exist in Tenn and Tennessee has been a right to work state for a long time. Not saying right to work laws do not do damage because they certainly do, but there not the end of unions. Before the NLRB there was no such thing as right to organize state. Every state could be an at will employer state, but unions organized and changed that. Unions can organize and change things back using the political process if the supreme court decides to make right to work national.
MichMan
(11,959 posts)RTW was passed 5 years ago in Michigan. There is not one union that has gone away
Unions in RTW states need to demonstrate why there are benefits to remaining a member since they can no longer count on people being forced to join in order to work at a union shop
The real travesty on top of RTW are laws that prohibit people who opt out from bargaining for themselves. This ensures that the union still has to bargain for them even if they aren't paying dues.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"There is not one union that has gone away..."
Have the aggregate state membership rolls increased or decreased? (Now is the time to look up that relevant information, yes? Gosh... the surprise of what you'll discover is almost underwhelming)
Absolute denial of a thing is not required if chipping the foundations weakens the structure as a whole (e.g. a woman's right to choose being steadily eroded bit by bit).
MichMan
(11,959 posts)Are you surprised ?; probably not what you expected.
"Last month, the Bureau of Labor Statistics released new data that show labor unions in Michigan added 52,000 new members in 2017. This was the biggest annual jump in union membership in Michigan in over a decade, and even more importantly, it means there are now more dues-paying union members in Michigan than there were in 2012 the year Gov. Rick Snyder signed right-to-work legislation into law."
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/2018/02/13/union-membership-growing/110388206/
BlueDog22
(366 posts)I was in a right to work state union for 6 years. Talk about having no teeth to go after the employer...
UnTied
(58 posts)...like a GENERAL STRIKE. We are slowly awakening from a deathly slumber in which we allowed the distractions like daily struggles, 2nd jobs, kids and whatever, to get us to take our eyes off the ball. We allowed them to divide us on "smaller issues" if you may. Issues like gay marriage and such are indeed important, but corporations and lobbyists see them as wedge issues, because they are emotional and get folks to the polls. But the only issues that the Powers-That-Be care about are those that affect their bottoms lines. And that is where we need to attack them. Either a General Strike, or essentially a month where we only spend on what we NEED and buy nothing considered a WANT - internet especially.
We let the lobbyists get ahead of us. We need to regain the upper hand. A few well-timed General Strikes may just get the point across, especially now that unemployment numbers are showing that workers are needed.
MichMary
(1,714 posts)and only in his 60s. He's going to be around for awhile.
You are thinking of Scalia.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)in their opinions, but yes I meant Scalia.
Atticus
(15,124 posts)Squinch
(50,990 posts)They're stupid.
We're never going to get them and they're stupid. We need to stop coddling them in their stupidity.
That whole hand wringing era of "we just don't understand the Trump voter" needs to be over.
Yeah, we understand them. They're either racists, sexists, or just unbelievably dumb.
Phoenix61
(17,011 posts)spot on. I'm in Florida and unions are all but gone. I've watched local politicians do everything they can to ensure jobs that might possibly bring the union here are not allowed in. Now they are bitching because all the young people are leaving. Guess working minimum wage tourist jobs ain't all it used to be. And yeah, Twitler carried the area and way too many people here are dumber than a box of rocks.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Bradshaw3
(7,526 posts)As we saw in Va. control of the legislature came down to one vote. What if one voter went against a Democrat because one of us called them stupid. It may be true and it may feel good to call them stupid but I want to elect as many Dems as possible and doing so is counterproductive.
JI7
(89,260 posts)Bradshaw3
(7,526 posts)and will cost Dems more elections. There are millions who voted for Obama - twice - then voted for drumpf. Whe I campaigned for Obama in 2008 in western Indian I talked to many people who voted for Bush twice and were open to Obama, who barely won the state. Every vote matters and to write off millions of voters because you want to lump them all together is not just wrong but will only serve to elect more repubs.
JI7
(89,260 posts)Bradshaw3
(7,526 posts)doesn't mean everyone of his voters is fucked up. Generalizations are not good for anyone. It may make you feel better to write such things but that attitude is why Dems lost voters. I care about winning elections. Others care more about venting, which doesn't change anything in the long run.
JI7
(89,260 posts)Just based on his actions alone
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)" most of his supporters being fucked up..."
That was a generalization, which as you allege, "are not good for anyone."
Squinch
(50,990 posts)and then voted for Trump(R) is actually miniscule.
There were people who voted for Obama who stayed home, and people who never voted before who came out to vote for Trump(R).
JI7
(89,260 posts)The number that voted Obama and trump is probably about same that voted mccain/ Romney and then Hillary.
Trump brought out the bigots which mccain and Romney did not appeal to.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)about economics.
And yes. They say there were a lot of first time middle aged voters who came out for Trump(R).
JI7
(89,260 posts)White voters who said the economy was their top concern voted Clinton.
It does no good to ignore these facts.
I'm all for reaching out to people but I'm not going to pretend the real reason for those that voted trump and continue to give him high approvals.
Bradshaw3
(7,526 posts)You provided no links to back it up, so here's an article with the number:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/upshot/the-obama-trump-voters-are-real-heres-what-they-think.html
It's 9.2 percent. That is NOT miniscule. It is certainly not a myth no matter how much you want to believe so. And unfortunately there are many on here who do not understand how important 9 percent of voters are in elections.
I understand that people on here hate drumpf voters and for good reason for most of them, but , again, it is counterproductive and making false statements to back up those feelings doesn't make the discusson any more productive.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)the source study, here's what the source study says:
This means that 5% of the total in that study switched between parties. Or about 2.5% of Democrats went Republican and vice versa.
The other 8% of the changers went to Independent. So you can't say they went from Obama to Trump.
Nate himself goes on to say:
OhioBlue
(5,126 posts)My GOTV packets should have been reliable dems - GOTV Obama - almost everyone had already voted or was voting Obama... GOTV packets Hillary - lots of animosity and a much, much lower percentage of those that had already voted for her or were going to vote for her. Some Trump support, but a lot more apathy, not sure they wanted to vote. I know Union members or former Union members that had Obama signs in their yard in '08 and '12 but had Trump signs in '16.
MichMan
(11,959 posts)OhioBlue
(5,126 posts)but I also knew NAFTA was gonna play a big part in the election. Unions in Ohio have been railing against NAFTA and trade deals for a couple of decades. It has been in their union literature and discussed in Union halls. Racism and dog whistles were part of the Trump agenda and I won't disagree that some Union members are either racist or succumb to latent racism... but NAFTA was and is an issue in Ohio, Michigan, PA, etc.
I know a guy who was a local Union President and Dem precinct chair - campaigned for Kerry, Strickland, Brown and Obama but totally flipped to the dark side and became a total Trumper. This was after his plant closed.
BlueDog22
(366 posts)Thank You.
StevieM
(10,500 posts)Before that she was damaged by GOP lies about Benghazi. She did a good job of beating that back but then the fake email scandal took its place.
OhioBlue
(5,126 posts)down in Ohio polls before that. I don't think she would have won Ohio even without Comey. NAFTA made a difference.
StevieM
(10,500 posts)The polls there were tight until a couple of weeks before the election. They may have moved towards Trump in the few days before the final Comey intervention, but they could always have moved back.
To be fair, blowing Donald Trump out of the water isn't exactly the biggest accomplishment in the world. But without Comey I think she would have done it, Putin's alliance with Trump not withstanding.
elleng
(131,063 posts)Foolish of me to expect understanding here?
Bradshaw3
(7,526 posts)elleng
(131,063 posts)Squinch
(50,990 posts)the bigots and sexists who voted for Trump(R) on their bigotry and sexism?
THAT is our base. How about we appeal to them?
Bradshaw3
(7,526 posts)Obama did. It doesn't have to be pitting one group against another. It is also very shortsighted if you want to win elections in states other than just blue ones. But it makes people feel better to vent. I want to win elections across the country, not just in blue states and an occasional presidential year.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)people of color, and the other group despises women and people of color.
This has nothing to do with venting. If you really want to win elections, you have to stop believing myths like Trump(R) voter voting because of economic reasons and the "millions" who voted for Obama and Trump(R). All the data analysis agrees that those people don't actually exist.
Bradshaw3
(7,526 posts)Nine percent of voters fall in that group. I provided a link not just a vblanket statement. And to paint milions of people as all racist is as bad as what they are doing.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)is voting for an open and unapologetic racist. If you don't find that to be a deal breaker you are indistinguishable from a racist.
JI7
(89,260 posts)Men who beat women ?
Squinch
(50,990 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)And crawling over them to try to appease don't vote Democratic because they think we're pay to much attention to minority concerns is NOT going to generate support among black and brown folk.
You know we can see you when you do this, right?
WillowTree
(5,325 posts).......coddling bigots and not resorting to juvenile name calling toward people who may have voted Republican in the last cycle for reasons that have little or nothing to do with race or even Trump himself. And those people are out there, whether you choose to accept that fact or not. Convince yourself otherwise if you choose, but there are people who didn't vote for Hillary who could be lured back into the fold but won't be if Democrats continue to refer to them as "stupid" or "deplorable" or "racist". You may be willing to throw those votes away, but a lot of people feel otherwise.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)And kissing their asses and telling them it smells like cotton candy hasn't done us any good, has it?
They want to be Republicans. Let them be Republicans. We can win without them if we stop spending all of our time chasing after them and, instead, focus on expanding the base of people who have been loyal, totally not flaky and will vote Democratic if we just help them get to the polls and make their votes count.
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)elleng
(131,063 posts)JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,362 posts)Trump seems to get away with using insults. But it's generally not a great campaign tactic.
elleng
(131,063 posts)Reminding me of elementary school; gets no friends.
WillowTree
(5,325 posts)It's not only not as useful, but most of the time completely counter-productive. The old "catch more flies with honey than vinegar" thing........and too many people just do.......not.......get it.
MichMan
(11,959 posts)Michigan passed RTW 5 years ago and there were many statements by opponents that wages would be cut as a result. The state is highly dependent on the auto industry and sales have been strong for several years.
While there has undoubtedly been some erosion in membership, it hasn't been widespread and as far as I know, there have been no pay cuts occurring to union members. I don't think that argument holds any traction anymore to the rank & file.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)RTW industry.
I have some connections with people in the south who work construction. Like skilled carpenters. They might as well be slinging Big Macs for all the money and security their skill brings them.
For once I agree with you.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)those skilled workers is no secret.
Those who willingly invite those forces to come in and ruin their own jobs are not concerned about their jobs. They have a different agenda and its one we will never convince them to change.
MichMan
(11,959 posts)The Big 3 have been hiring UAW skilled trades for the last several years as many are retiring. There is a shortage in SE Michigan.
People aren't seeing their wages cut & their jobs eliminated.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)MichMan
(11,959 posts)" Last month, the Bureau of Labor Statistics released new data that show labor unions in Michigan added 52,000 new members in 2017. This was the biggest annual jump in union membership in Michigan in over a decade, and even more importantly, it means there are now more dues-paying union members in Michigan than there were in 2012 the year Gov. Rick Snyder signed right-to-work legislation into law."
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/2018/02/13/union-membership-growing/110388206/
Squinch
(50,990 posts)tonyt53
(5,737 posts)As new non-union plants are built, watch it become harder and harder to negotiate a contract. Do you belong to a labor union? You sure appear to be defending right-to-work.
MichMan
(11,959 posts)Ever since it was passed here in Michigan, we were told that the wages of CURRENT union members would be slashed. It never happened.
There are a lot of legitimate issues to attack RTW, but it is hard to gin up support against it if the arguments being made for years end up not being true. Why do we think people will still believe it 5 years later?
The UAW rank & file is pretty upset at the leadership in Michigan right now due to the latest scandal. It is on the front page nearly every week. That issue alone may result in more people opting out than anything else. That has done a lot more damage to the UAW at the Big 3 than anything due to RTW.
blueinredohio
(6,797 posts)Response to Squinch (Reply #2)
INdemo This message was self-deleted by its author.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)away MY livelihood at the same time as they are throwing away their own with both hands.
I will have to pay for their stupidity.
bluestarone
(17,012 posts)Employers know how to do this shit.Non-union workers ALWAYS suck up to company UNIONS are the backbone of this country! Companies hate union people because these people are SMART and trained to know what rights workers really have!! Union people have ALWAYS been smart voters and MOSTLY DEMOCRATS!!! This has ALWAYS been my observation!!
MichMan
(11,959 posts)Then if people don't want to pay dues, they get zero benefits and can bargain for themselves.
bluestarone
(17,012 posts)get rid of the free rides!!!!
Demsrule86
(68,632 posts)BigmanPigman
(51,623 posts)by the San Diego unions. Often they are guest speakers at anti-moron rallies like The Women's March, The Tax March, DACA March, etc.as well as their own rallies. Unions are down everywhere due to fucking Reagun and most will not be coming back. One reason I chose teaching when I changed careers was due to their union. My dad was in AT&T and my sister and I would strike and walk with him on our Summer vacations. I think a lot of "union" mentality comes from your upbringing.
elleng
(131,063 posts)which is very big (and bad.)
MichMan
(11,959 posts)We need to quit blaming all the ills of the country on Reagan. Clinton and Obama each had 8 years to undo anything he did.
brush
(53,815 posts)Almost have to write them off as they side with the white peoples' partythe repugs.
We get more fruitful results among unregistered, independents, and white women who are finally seeing trump's blatant misogyny.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)trickle down economics to start working?
You didnt give us much insight, and Id love some.
BlueDog22
(366 posts)Mostly white men and women.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Becasue they dont want others competing or to pay a cent to help others?
beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)pain is felt, they let the other issues dominate their voting choices. The pain is coming.
BlueDog22
(366 posts)Like some forms of cancer, once the pain starts, it's just too late.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)Freddie
(9,273 posts)Override everything else. Thats why they plan to use Nancy Pelosi as the symbolic evil Dem now that they cant use HRC. And we kill babies and plan on taking your guns away ASAP!
Some people cant be reached.
CountAllVotes
(20,877 posts)n/t
spicysista
(1,663 posts)What caused them to leave the democratic party in the first place? That may tell you more about these voters than asking them what they want. What drew them to dolt45? What in his message to them motivated them to look past his glaring imperfections?
Also, when was the last time these folks voted for a democratic candidate? Before Reagan?
Without those blanks filled in, I have no idea where to start. I'm all for expanding the tent to include these voters. But, until they are ready to explain why they chose Mango Mussolini over strength and capability, I am at a loss.
Thank you for interacting with me on a practical basis without invoking ideology.
A lot of them voted for Clinton and/Or Kerry. Some of them were even Obama voters.
What they want to hear is that the jobs will come back, but you can't promise that. Trump did, but couldn't deliver. Those manufacturing jobs in textiles, those coal jobs, those jobs are gone and there's nothing we can really do about it.
How do you break through to those voters, lie? Offer them education opportunities?
The problem with a lot of people on both sides of the spectrum is they can't see passed their own ideology, and walk into the shoes of others. A lot of people in this country are worried that their jobs are going to get packed up in cargo containers, and be shipped overseas. Then what are they going to do? How are they going to feed their families? These people don't want hand outs. They don't want to beg. Their proud, they want to work. They want earn. This is their primary issue, to have the ability to survive from their own labor.
How do you get through to these people? These are the people we want in the party.
JI7
(89,260 posts)These groups that actually ARE more likely to vote democratic.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)JI7
(89,260 posts)JI7
(89,260 posts)spicysista
(1,663 posts)This means that there's hope. If they have liked and supported our party principles in the past, then maybe they saw tRump as a nonpartisan? Maybe they saw him as something different and thought....why not? This, we can work with.
I don't believe that we should lie or promise the moon, but we must be inspirational. We should be bold in our democratic principles. We should have a local message that speaks directly to those particular voters but in a way that doesn't alienate others in our tent.
Since you know these people, you are our best asset in winning them back. Continue to talk with them and gauge their opinions on cheeto. Let us know how they're responding to his agenda. If their reasoning for supporting the short fingered vulgarian were really about economic anxieties, his lack of progress may give us room to make inroads with them. My fear is that they voted for him for other reasons.
Keep up the fight!
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)is what we think of as jobs are never coming back. It is fashionable to think that the culprit is jobs being sent to other countries, but jobs are being automated even more so. In many ways we are already so efficient there isn't enough labor to employ the people available.
Capitalism puts a premium on ownership of means of production. That makes automation benefit only those owners and acts to the detriment of those without means. Saddly, the poem about people being taken and the author not doing anything about it seems very applicable here.
leftstreet
(36,110 posts)Time to share the wealth
Calista241
(5,586 posts)We're not going to get rid of Trump and Paul Ryan if you people don't stop insulting everyone that hasn't always thought like you do.
BlueDog22
(366 posts)Those people, that way of thinking, is why we lost in 2016. They can't see that, but most of us do.
"Trump is a bad guy" is not a campaign message. People care about their jobs. They care that they can feed their families and have a roof over their heads. At one point in time that was a Democratic issue, and if we want to win in 2018 and 2020, that is going to have to be an issue again.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)Russian interference, and the FBI stacking the deck for Trump(R) and against Hillary.
We're not going to win by ignoring that fact and trying to make ourselves attractive to people whose racism and sexism blinds them even to their own self interest.
No, they don't care about their jobs, or about feeding their families or putting a roof over their heads. If they cared about their jobs and their families, they would not vote in a way that all but ensures they will lose those jobs.
All the data analysis of those who voted for Trump(R) has come to the same conclusion: economic concerns were NOT an issue for Trump(R) voters. They were NOT concerned about their jobs.
This is a canard.
And to characterize the Democratic message as "Trump is a bad guy" is to spread a republican talking point. What do Democrats stand for? I'm really sick of hearing that asked, so I'll give you a few REALLY OBVIOUS things: Democrats stand for fiscal responsibility. They show that by fixing the economy every time the republicans blow it up. They stand for women and people of color. They show that by sponsoring and pushing legislation for equal pay, equal housing and equal treatment under the law. They stand for dreamers and they show that by inventing the status and fighting to keep it alive. They stand for the middle class. They show that by SUPPORTING unions and their right to exist. They show it by not stealing from the middle class to give tax breaks to billionaires. They stand for the poor and the elderly. They show that by providing and fighting for social security and medicare and medicaid. I could go on.
BlueDog22
(366 posts)I disagree with the first part, but that last paragraph is beautiful.
Then how do we take that message and turn it into a plan of action? That is the key. That is the goal.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)I am the first and usually the loudest voice saying that Democrats suck at messaging, and we need to find a messaging genius and set him or her loose on the world.
HOWEVER, if we were to find such a person, the people we would need to target would absolutely not be your union friends who "just want to feed their families," and they go about that by voting in a way that ensures they will not be able to feed their families.
Again, all of the data analysis of the Trump(R) voter says that economics were absolutely NOT the reason for their vote. Trump(R) voters voted for Trump(R) because they are bigots or sexists. Pure and simple. They may not be overt, but that's why they did it.
We will NEVER appeal to them. What they want is what we have right now, and that is what we are against. Our messaging has to bypass those morons entirely and go for the women, people of color and elderly whose votes have been suppressed or who did not come out to vote in this election. In Alabama, the secret to turning the absolutely red state blue in the special election was a historic Get Out the Vote campaign among people of color, women and the elderly.
So that is the plan of action.
BlueDog22
(366 posts)I know people that voted for Trump, did not stick with him, but are wary of the Democrats. That was what the OP was about. Those that are no longer with Trump, but are wary of us. All of you guys are attacking me for asking, how do we get back the people that are now politically homeless.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)correct descriptor. That has nothing to do with attacking you.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)after election after election, despite standing in the longest lines, enduring the most difficult obstacles - and never whined about "having to hold our noses" to vote for someone who we didn't agree with 100% (or even 50%) because we just don't play that - have to see and hear Democrats focus so much effort, not on making it easier for us to get to the polls and have our votes count and get more people in our communities out to vote, but on running around after white voters who don't give a shit about us and are perfectly happy to vote for and continue to support an unapologetic racist for President of the United States?
You all act like, just because you're ignoring us, that we can't see and hear you lavish attention and electoral resources on racists and their apologists while meting out crumbs to us.
Democrats are NOT going to win by begging bigots to vote for them. Because, as minorities well know, the primary reason those people don't vote Democratic is not economics, but US. And the only way to get them back into the fold is to convince them that WE don't matter as much as they do.
Screw that. Leave them where they are and focus on the people who have been loyal as hell, even when the party didn't deserve it, and who have proven time and again that if given the chance, we will carry the Democrat over the finish line.
dawg
(10,624 posts)We need to focus on empowering and expanding our base - the people who have supported and sustained our party though thick and thin.
Of course, blue-collar white men are always welcome in the Democratic Party. But we should never be willing to change who we are, and what we stand for, just to accommodate them.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)JI7
(89,260 posts)Comey blew it.
sprinkleeninow
(20,254 posts)StevieM
(10,500 posts)Calista241
(5,586 posts)We need votes in the Atlanta suburbs. We need votes in upstate New York. We need suburban votes in Michigan and Wisconsin and Pennsylvania.
If we want to win the House and Senate. Otherwise we can talk about our popular vote victories, and watch the Repubs win everything that actually matters.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)JI7
(89,260 posts)shanny
(6,709 posts)JI7
(89,260 posts)shanny
(6,709 posts)The Democratic Party threw unions under the bus long ago.
JI7
(89,260 posts)shanny
(6,709 posts)JI7
(89,260 posts)JI7
(89,260 posts)Bradshaw3
(7,526 posts)59 percent of union households voted for our first black president in 2008, compared to 51 percent for non-union households. Implying that union members stopped voting Democratic because they are racists is as wrong and counterproductive as calling them all stupid.
JI7
(89,260 posts)Not all white men are racist. I certainly am not.
JI7
(89,260 posts)Bradshaw3
(7,526 posts)And that's who I'm talking about. They are not all racist and they are not all lost causes. Convincing 5-10 percent of them to change their minds could win back statehouses and maybe the senate. It's about winning elections.
JI7
(89,260 posts)Who had no problem with trumps bigotry is just white men thinking they are more important.
BlueDog22
(366 posts)Thank you for at least listening to me.
Some of those union households voted for Trump because of his lies. Now we have to sell them truths and act on them.
JI7
(89,260 posts)He is doing.
You are blinded by your own ideology. That is sad.
JI7
(89,260 posts)Squinch
(50,990 posts)BlueDog22
(366 posts)A lot of Republican voters stayed home rather then vote for Moore. That Alabama election was a one trick pony.
JI7
(89,260 posts)BlueDog22
(366 posts)Yes, but that is a different state. Virginia has been trending more Democratic in recent years. Alabama is still very much a Republican stronghold.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)won't work, because the success of that strategy in Virginia and Alabama - Alabama! - were just flukes.
JI7
(89,260 posts)child molestor like Roy moore.
Tatiana
(14,167 posts)Watch the economy tank. Watch their retirement accounts get raided and stolen. Watch overtime rules and regulations be rolled back.
When their pocketbook isn't enriched the way they thought it would be, then they'll turn around. Sad to say. All these people care about are themselves.
Also, I work with a lot of union members who voted for Trump and I really think they did so because they are racist.
Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)
BlueDog22 This message was self-deleted by its author.
GreenEyedLefty
(2,073 posts)And later took a non-union position. I worked in the same office as the union president. I watched as she and her rep tried to negotiate with the district, who was looking to fire all of the secretaries and hire lower paid replacements.
I suggested the best way for the secretaries to keep their jobs is to train them to be the best, most highly skilled workforce in the district... like the IBEW and other strong, highly skilled unions.
I don't think these are stupid people or Trump voters... but I do think that unions are only as good as their leadership.
BlueDog22
(366 posts)That is a very true statement. I was with a union that had very poor leadership.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)I remember when Rick Boucher came to Buchanan County in the 90's, making promises that more tidewater shipyard tax breaks would somehow, magically help the miners who were struggling under oppressive coal company operators.
He was touting "economic redevelopment" that ended up being nothing more than tax breaks for a business park, that only generated local jobs for 20-30 people in the form of janitorial services. Even the construction contract was given to an out of state company.
Assholes like that are why union members turned away.
JI7
(89,260 posts)And those who voted for them are seen as the victim.
mcar
(42,366 posts)That makes no sense. What do the Trumpsters offer them?
The door is open, they can walk right in.
JI7
(89,260 posts)They are voting on something else and it does no good to ignore what that is.
I'd rather us focus on our good, solid, liberal message. It's right there for anyone who wants to hear it. I'm done with the racist, sexist, selfish crowd.
JI7
(89,260 posts)And yet someone always comes along trying to convince us those who support them are good people and we are the problem.
"You force me to support women beating, racist scum".
mcar
(42,366 posts)FCK that!
a kennedy
(29,695 posts)working more then 40 hours a week, or when they got holidays off, or when they got sick days, or when they got some sort of family leave time, or when they got a discount on their health insurance. What do they have now??? and theyre getting going to be getting less when the Supreme Court decides on some labor issues this year.
RandySF
(59,104 posts)But they did.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)with a Southern drawl, confederate flag on the wall, and a load of guns.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)jalan48
(13,879 posts)Solidarity can evaporate quickly, which I think many of today's movements will find out in the coming years.
doc03
(35,362 posts)#1 Union members are not all white men. I worked in the steel industry, we had people of all races and genders working there.
#2 Union workers are not stupid.
#3 And I think the biggest reason by far is the Republicans effectively hung NAFTA around the Democrat's neck.
Unions represented manufacturing and mining in this area. We saw manufacturing destroyed by cheap imports and I don't want a
environmental argument but the EPA had big effect on the loss those jobs. The area where I live was about 2/3 Democrat.
A few years ago you couldn't get elected to a county office unless you ran as a Democrat. Today every county office but one is held by a Republican. This has all taken place as Union jobs in manufacturing and mining has died. You talk to many blue collar workers and
they blame Democrats for it. A guy at the gym asked me the other day if I was one of Hillary's deplorables. I said no I didn't vote for Trump and he asked me where I worked. I said I worked in the steel mill and he said Hillary said you were deplorable. Now that is not what she said or meant. She said about half Trump's voters were deplorable because they were racists not that they blue collar workers. But here again the Republicans through Fox News has convinced them otherwise.
People have been brainwashed by Fox News. Fox News is a cancer on our democracy.
NAFTA was a big sticking point in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. Running against NAFTA did peel away some union folks there.
doc03
(35,362 posts)from the tea party hammering NAFTA, War on Coal and Obamacare. Same thing on the WV side they have a congressman named McKinley that replaced a Democrat by hammering NAFTA, Obamacare and War on Coal. It doesn't matter if the Republicans in congress voted for NAFTA Bill Clinton has been made the culprit. These people watch nothing but Fox News. Obama care is another Republican idea we adopted in order to compromise with Republicans. We got zero votes from the Republicans and gave them something to blame us for. Maybe we should have tried to get an actual Democratic health care plan.
Skittles
(153,174 posts)BlueDog22
(366 posts)Some of the people that voted for Trump didn't vote for Trump, they voted against Hillary. A lot of people that voted for Hillary weren't voting for Hillary, they were voting against Trump. That happens in every election.
Give people a candidate they can vote for, and they are more motivated. We saw that with Obama.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)Skittles
(153,174 posts)ALL of them should have known better
JI7
(89,260 posts)This goes back to Hillary hate when her husband ran for president.
They had to tear down a woman who was too uppity and would not stay in her place.
StevieM
(10,500 posts)People believed this garbage because because she was a woman.
Of course, having an out-of-control FBI didn't help matters. That explains why even Donald Trump could beat her.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)If they haven't figured out by now that the Democrats are better for them, I say screw them and leave them to the Republicans. We don't need them to win. Instead, we should spend our time, energy and resources inspiring and expanding our base - and giving them what they need to get to the polls.
I'm sick and tired of chasing after white voters who vote Republican, not for economic reasons, but because they believe the Republicans are more likely to help them regain/maintain their perceived superior status in this society.
BlueDog22
(366 posts)Economics aside, I cannot stand social conservatives. They are like locusts.
SharonClark
(10,014 posts)It is heartbreaking to hear union members say they vote repug because of guns and gays. Most belong to the union only because they work in a union shop. They have no sense of or pride in union history. That said, I'm glad union leadership understands what is at stake.
BlueDog22
(366 posts)I've seen it too. It makes me sad.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)Democrats keep running on facts that make union members lives better and everybody elses. Giving tax cuts to billionaires is dumb, science is good, bigotry is bad. I guess technically those are all opinionated conclusions, but theyre based on facts.
Too many union members, though, voted the way they did because kneeling for the flag is wrong, blue lives matter, and unisex bathrooms are part of the gay agenda to make all the children gay commies.
Republicans cant win on any issue that actually matters, so they have to fight a War on Christmas and prevent Obamas UN from stealing our precious, precious assault rifles.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)The union membership rate--the percent of wage and salary workers who were
members of unions--was unchanged at 10.7 percent in 2017, the U.S. Bureau of
Labor Statistics reported today.
...
Highlights from the 2017 data:
--The union membership rate of public-sector workers (34.4 percent)
continued to be more than five times higher than that of private-
sector workers (6.5 percent). (See table 3.)
--Workers in protective service occupations and in education, training,
and library occupations had the highest unionization rates (34.7
percent and 33.5 percent, respectively). (See table 3.)
--Men continued to have a higher union membership rate (11.4 percent)
than women (10.0 percent). (See table 1.)
--Black workers remained more likely to be union members than White,
Asian, or Hispanic workers. (See table 1.)
--Nonunion workers had median weekly earnings that were 80 percent of
earnings for workers who were union members ($829 versus $1,041). (The
comparisons of earnings in this release are on a broad level and do not
control for many factors that can be important in explaining earnings
differences.) (See table 2.)
--Among states, New York continued to have the highest union membership
rate (23.8 percent), while South Carolina continued to have the lowest
(2.6 percent). (See table 5.)
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm
BlueDog22
(366 posts)And ten percent of the population is also gay, and they are a factor. I support them too, and rightfully so.
LuvLoogie
(7,021 posts)There are his die hard who openly support or enable him. And there are the ones who know better either then or now, who know they made a mistake. But they will never say I should have voted for Hillary. They just shut up, not saying anything, not admitting their mistake, not denouncing trump and his behavior, not admitting that their votes did damage to the country and hurt real people. The quiet ones have good jobs, go to happy hour and Cancun. It's those fuckers. The same ones that said shit while the blatant racist fucked over someone. For a fucking tax cut.
They go on about their lives Never admitting to themselves the hypocrisy of hating Hillary while remaining silent about trump. Fuck them. Fuck their bigotry. Fuck anybody that voted for that bigot grifter vandal. I did my fucking homework on trump. Jesus you didn't even have to do any homework. He showed his vile ass every day of his campaign.
I understand them.
BlueDog22
(366 posts)Title says it all.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Even though Florida is a right to work state.
First 10 years I was labor, last 20 management.
Even our Stewards generally vote republican.
It is racism pure and simple. They make good money and correctly feel threatened but are not sure why. So they listen to Fox and Rush and now believe the threat is people who do not look like them. These guys never voted for Obama.
In realy the threat is that their employer will decide to break the union.
In the plus side more and more of our work force are people if color and they are rapidly changing things. They are more likely to actually join the union so they get to vote on their officers.
moondust
(20,002 posts)I think that also explains "Reagan Democrats."
Southern strategy worked.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Some of us actually work with them and understand them fully. These guys were not Obama voters.
tenderfoot
(8,438 posts)that should be a good starting point.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 13, 2018, 01:38 AM - Edit history (1)
Try to convince them that hordes of Mexicans aren't coming to steal their jobs. Other than that, there's not much you can do about it. What they want is for us to focus less on minority problems.
Edit: Also want to add that this idea that it was a lack of economic message that cost us the election is bullshit. We won working class voters, and still win union voters by a big margin. Poor white people actually voted in favor of Clinton slightly. The better off a white person was, the more likely they were to vote for Trump. Racism and xenophobia took over. White Trump union workers are a pretty tiny demographic (one that doesn't face oppresion), that it's not worth any kind of extra focus or big changes on a national level. If locals want to give it a shot without aleinating better people that actually need our help, sure.
Squinch
(50,990 posts)two or three posters are throwing around in this thread.
I have to wonder why.
samir.g
(835 posts)Now we need to cater to them?
No.
Demsrule86
(68,632 posts)there is no way to bring them back into the fold. Here in Ohio, those union who voted for Trump bitterly regret it now so I expect a backlash against the GOP.