General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIMHO: We need paper ballots, everywhere, and delayed reporting to allow counting. Everywhere.
And the cost just doesn't matter.
If we don't get a final tally for 2-3-4 weeks, that's fine with me. I want to know putin didn't elect the house and senate.
With the money that's spent on tv and transportation, we could spend some of that on the counting.
LOCAL counting.
obliviously
(1,635 posts)tblue37
(65,487 posts)BigmanPigman
(51,627 posts)Iggo
(47,565 posts)RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)MontanaMama
(23,337 posts)+1000
brooklynite
(94,727 posts)....nothing could possibly happen during that time, right?
lindysalsagal
(20,730 posts)brooklynite
(94,727 posts)If you want paper ballots, great. Just don't blindly assume they're any safer than the voting system we have today (obligatory observation that there's no evidence of hacking of vote tallies).
mwooldri
(10,303 posts)Hand count. Pencil and paper. Sometimes they even do a local government contest at the same time.
One thing that makes it unwieldy in US elections is that people insist on having one election day to vote for everyone from local dog catcher to President of the United States and every race in between. With that large number of races done on one day, yes it's not possible to hand count that many races overnight.
But paper ballots with machine assisted counting is the way to go. For the close races hand counting of paper ballots is possible. For the races where it is plainly obvious who the winner is we can rely on the machine count.
Hekate
(90,793 posts)July
(4,751 posts)I have described this before on DU. It can be done, accurately and fairly. And quickly.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)and other places never never saw results like that no matter what ballots you use that could still happen...very suspicious...almost mathematically impossible.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)bluestarone
(17,030 posts)mopinko
(70,208 posts)having worked as a judge a few times, i would hope they would send in counting judges, like they used to do. you are pretty tired at the end of the night, but just the top race or 2 is not undoable.
the most important thing, tho, is auditing what was reported at the precinct level, and what gets reported in the state totals. a print out is available at polling places, and usually printed out for poll watchers.
but nobody seems to make sure those are the numbers that get reported out. malcolm nance mentioned this on msnbc today.
i have spoken to this here before, and it sunk pretty quick.
but absent other security measures, this is available to us as citizens. even if you dont have people to check every precinct, at least it would be a random audit that might show phony results.
sinkingfeeling
(51,473 posts)ollie10
(2,091 posts)Paper ballots in a lot of places.
Incomprehensible
Progressive dog
(6,918 posts)but not hand counting. The accuracy of counting by machine is much better than hand counting.
LiberalFighter
(51,084 posts)renegade000
(2,301 posts)It's a big community event for each precinct with reps from all the major parties. Seems like a good way of doing things to me.
jalan48
(13,883 posts)Amaryllis
(9,525 posts)never the case for years and years.
jalan48
(13,883 posts)Amaryllis
(9,525 posts)Freelancer
(2,107 posts)Or some equivalent. Otherwise, these right wing accusations of voter fraud will just go on and on. The purple dye on the finger is the emblem of trust in elections elsewhere in the world. We should bring it here.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)We have to have confidence in our voting system.
iluvtennis
(19,871 posts)reports on election 48 hours before voting and media prohibited for reporting anything until the official counts had been provided. We need to start that type of process here as well.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)the chances of getting such a thing are?
tritsofme
(17,399 posts)Where all ballots were locally counted by hand...Riiiight....
JoeOtterbein
(7,702 posts)byronius
(7,401 posts)Either side. I think we should offer fully-paid public recounts if any party objects.
Because it's the most important thing in the world. It should be every American's religion.
JoeOtterbein
(7,702 posts)It feels like I'm doing nothing when I vote.
byronius
(7,401 posts)Love the feeling. Then I get to put it on the sealed box.
Electronic voting is just evil. Period. Like private prisons and child marriage.
JoeOtterbein
(7,702 posts)honest and objective. I've been offered money, drugs and sex for improved (faked) scores. Even when a attractive young lady manager invited me up to her hotel room for drinks. I said no thanks because food safety is so critical to our health. I'm sure I can trust audit pros from all types of business. Hell, if they can count every penny you made or lost, they can count ballots objectively.
byronius
(7,401 posts)We should be able to defend ourselves like Holland.
Less traitors in Holland, apparently.
dugog55
(296 posts)It is also ridiculous that we can only vote on a Tuesday from 7 AM to 7 PM. Most everybody that has a job works on Tuesday, getting there before work would be risky for being late for work, and sometimes getting there afterward is not so easy either. What is wrong with Saturday? Most people are off of work on Saturday. Or make Tuesday a National Holiday. What is more important or American than the right to vote.
I will also mention that nobody should have to stand in line more that 2 hours to vote. I have seen pictures, usually in Democratic strongholds, with waiting lines a block long. It is no secret that Republican Governors have made it more difficult to vote on College Campuses and in areas where the Democrats are stronger.
This is a Progressive Country, but the elections have not been reflecting that in the last 10 years. The Republicans have been implementing Draconian voter rules in States which they control, and there has been suspected computer tampering since the 2000 elections.
Paper ballots, mail in votes, weekend voting, two day voting, and shorter voting lines all should be addressed if we want to consider our Country a Represented Democracy.
maxsolomon
(33,400 posts)This is becoming my DU Pet Peeve #1. Making it happen would take a seismic shift of the trend in American Government:
Among the states, there are 33 Republicans, 16 Democrats, and 1 independent that hold the office of governor.
Republicans are now in control of a record 67 (68 percent) of the 98 partisan state legislative chambers in the nation, more than twice the number (31) in which Democrats have a majority, according to the bipartisan National Conference of State Legislatures (NCSL).
Thats more than at any other time in the history of the Republican Party, according to NCSL. They also hold more total seats, well over 4,100 of the 7,383, than they have since 1920.
Next year, the GOP will control both legislative chambers in 32 states - an all-time high, according to NCSL - while Democrats will have total control of just 13 state legislatures.
You might as well ask for a total ban on semi-automatic weapons while you're at it.
Embrace reality, DU.
druidity33
(6,446 posts)Governors races are looking pretty good at this moment.
maxsolomon
(33,400 posts)We need to stop arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
Snackshack
(2,541 posts)Giving a 24-48hr window over a weekend to vote in elections would also be nice.
Response to lindysalsagal (Original post)
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csziggy
(34,137 posts)Then the actual paper ballots could be counted by hand if there are any questions about the totals. Or hand counted just to verify the results.
Here (Leon County, Florida) we have used paper ballots since the late 1980s. In 2000 it took 45 minutes to recount our (admittedly small) county.
The procedure here is that we fill out our ballots and each voter puts their ballot into the optical scanner. If there are any problems with the ballot - extraneous marks, under- or over-votes, the scanner kicks the ballot back out and the voter gets a chance to re-do their ballot. Of course, they can decide not to re-do it, but then there is a very good chance their ballot will not be counted, or they may lose a vote in a particular race.
Response to csziggy (Reply #60)
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debsy
(530 posts)... and elections should be federally regulated so that every state is playing by the same rules across the board. Also, PRIVATE MONEY OUT OF ELECTIONS - public campaign finance is the only hope.
Hermit-The-Prog
(33,414 posts)fierywoman
(7,694 posts)local government workers, a rep from each party counts each group of ballots and sign a total in agreement with each other.
riverbendviewgal
(4,253 posts)Use paper ballots. They are hand counted.
Ferrets are Cool
(21,110 posts)Then they can't cheat. Damn, you're so Un-American....some might even call it treasonous.
lutherj
(2,496 posts)receives a ballot and a voter's guide in the mail. You fill it out at home and mail it in or drop it off at local collection sites. No lines, no voter intimidation. Ballots are sealed in an anonymous inner envelope. The inner envelope is separated from the outer before the counting starts. It's not perfect but it's pretty painless and secure.
LisaM
(27,830 posts)There are powerful forces that don't want the results to be correct.
CabalPowered
(12,690 posts)And then I discovered blockchain voting. Even with paper ballots, the results of the tabulation are still entered into a computer. The inherent danger remains. Moving our elections to the blockchain is the only the way to ensure hack-free elections.
https://followmyvote.com/online-voting-platform-faqs/
mountain grammy
(26,648 posts)Like Colorado.. mail in paper ballots.. over 50%voting .
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)screwed up tallies, etc.
Dont think paper ballots alone will solve anything. Maybe paper receipts, but even those could be tampered with.
Local counting in the South resulted in a lot of white wingers getting elected.
garybeck
(9,942 posts)the only voting technology that doesn't have paper ballots is DREs (direct recording electronic). yes they suck.
but just having paper ballots is not good enough. many states including mine (VT) has paper ballots but they are all counted by machines which is only marginally better than having no paper. still wide open to hacking and rigging.
we need hand counted paper ballots
or
paper ballots with statistically-significant random audits.
samnsara
(17,635 posts)keithbvadu2
(36,906 posts)Absolutely! Machines that cannot be truly audited are suspect from the start.
Too expensive to add a printer? Bullpoop!
Accounting classes on auditing specifically teach that there is a reason people do not want their work audited.
AllyCat
(16,222 posts)Sam McGee
(347 posts)I'm not presenting myself as an expert, however, I know a little about the topic. I'm the secretary of the electoral board in my rural VA county, have been for six years. We are responsible for putting on our elections.
Paper ballots are best because they leave a verifiable trail that can be hand-counted if need be.
20 or so years ago, the nation fell in love with touch-screen machines -- set up the machine, see the ballot on the screen, touch the box next to the candidate for whom you are voting, hit the on-screen button to cast your vote. At the end of the day, poll workers run a routine on the machine that reports the votes.
BIG PROBLEMS.
1. No paper ballot. No record. If the machine reports 100 votes for Candidate A, 200 for B, etc., THERE IS NO WAY TO VERIFY THE COUNT. You have to trust the machine.
2. The machines can slip out of calibration -- touch the box by A, vote is cast for B.
Added to this problem is that many voting machine manufacturers added wireless capability to their voting machines so, eventually, votes could be reported wirelessly.
In 2015 in VA we had major problems in three districts -- the touch-screen machines in a few precincts acted squirrely. After the election, inspectors discovered their smartphones could talk to the voting machines. The machines were acting up because they polling places were in libraries -- with wireless -- library wireless was trying to contact the voting machine.
So --the state de-certified all touch-screen machines. Current machines must be disposed of and replaced.
We use what I believe is the best possible system that consists of two machines:
PAPER BALLOTS WITH A DIGITAL SCANNER. Voter marks the ballot, puts it into the scanner, scanner reads the ballot, tallies the votes, feeds the ballot into a sealed box underneath the scanner. If the voter has put too many marks or funny marks, the scanner screen displays a warning so the voter can turn in that ballot and get a new one.
HANDICAPPED CAPABLE TOUCH SCREEN MACHINE THAT PRINTS A PAPER BALLOT. These machines are fully ADA compliant -- audio ballot read out, zoom in on the screen, sip-and-puff tube. The voter touches the screen to make their selection. When the voter has voted, the machine prints a paper ballot that the voter reviews then feeds into the scanner with all the other ballots -- thereby creating a paper ballot.
This system is what the entire country should go to. We have six polling places. We bought ten scanners: 6 + 1 for the absentee precinct + 3 spares. Bought 9 of the touch-screen printers: 6 precincts + 1 for absentee precinct + 2 spares. Total cost was under $100,000.
The machines are locked in a vault under two-person control. The vault is under constant visual surveillance. The software for each election is programmed by the manufacturer, we load it into the machines, then we run extensive logic & accuracy tests to ensure the software is programmed correctly. Then, machines are sealed and locked in the vault until election day. The machines do not have any access points -- not wireless, not USB, not ethernet, not any access.
Pobeka
(4,999 posts)The russians can just write a scanner algorithm that when installed on the system, alters the count, , and upon system shutdown deletes itself and restores the original scanning algorithm -- leaving no trace of altered software. I like the idea of a scanner detecting a screwed up ballot though.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Hekate
(90,793 posts)liberalla
(9,260 posts)drray23
(7,637 posts)most democracies have paper ballots. In France, its counted by hand and takes a day. Here in Virginia we recently switched to all paper ballots. They counted it within the usual time.
Its per precinpt. So, a well organized team does it in a few hours or less (for small ones) and then its passed up the chain for tally up.