he didn't notice anything suspicious when he sold 720 rounds of ammunition

[Ptah]

[guillaumeb]

1. Which shooting does this refer to?

[Phoenix61]

3. Las Vegas nt

[guillaumeb]

5. Thank you.

There have been so many. But given that the NRA controls the debate, and the SCOTUS, this is a natural consequence of a country that fetishizes guns.

[Ptah]

4. Doesn't matter.

[guillaumeb]

6. True.

[uponit7771]

9. +1

[Phoenix61]

2. Armor piercing ammo at that nt

[linuxman]

13. Literally ANY common deer rifle round will penetrate armor. Tough sell.

[Nevernose]

45. Read the indictment for tourself

He’d been making and selling armor-piercing and inciniary ammo and selling it all over Western gun shows.

http://static.lakana.com/nxsglobal/lasvegasnow/document_dev/2018/02/02/USvsHaig_1517612356459_33041150_ver1.0.pdf

[herding cats]

18. Which he was manufacturing illegally and had his fingerprints on them.

Nothing suspicious about that in the least.

[Eugene]

7. I just Googled "bulk ammo" and it's offered in batches of 500 "cheap."

[James48]

8. Thats a stretch

Not really “armor piercing”- reloading with
Steel tips is a common practice. At one time the ATF was talking about considering them “armor piercing”, but as I recall, they backed off that position after a large pushback from gun owners and technical experts.

The steel tipped bullets used on the M855 round of 5.56 mm are actually very common, they don’t easily pierce armor, and are, in fact, far less leathal that hunting style hollow point bullets.

And these steel tipped M855 style rounds do not meet the strict legal definition of “armor piercing” that are regulated under the law.

See http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/03/foghorn/the-truth-about-m855-5-56-nato-ammunition/

[Ptah]

11. Yada yada yada. Bang! Bang!

[Adrahil]

17. Any center fire rifle ammo...

Will penetrate typical police soft armor. Even just plain Jane FMJ ball ammo.

[Drahthaardogs]

19. Nobody hunts with hollow points

You want a bullet to mushroom but stay together and maintain energy for deep penetration.

Maybe varmits with hollow points but not even furbearers because you want the hide intact.

[Demsrule86]

28. I would introduce serious gun regulation and ban the bullet you refer to.

[Iggo]

40. That didn't take long.

[Blue_true]

10. He was also making cop killer ammo.

People like that know exactly what they are doing and are almost always anti-social.

[linuxman]

14. How was it cop-killer ammo?

I'm not sure what that refers to.

[Blue_true]

21. Armor piecing bullets can pass through some police protective vests.

Modern vest are better at stopping the bullets, but no one should have that type of bullet in regular society.

[NutmegYankee]

23. Even regular rifle ammo can punch through a police vest.

The vests are designed for handguns.

[Blue_true]

24. True, but the issue is survivability. It is lower with armor piercing bullets. nt

[NutmegYankee]

26. It depends.

A hard core bullet might stay together longer in flesh whereas many lead rifle rounds break apart and send shrapnel throughout. In the end, it's all just luck on trajectory. A mere .22 short in an artery will kill.

It's best to not be shot at all.

[Demsrule86]

29. Armour piercing bullets are deadly no matter what sick of the gun apologists here. They should be

banned.

[NutmegYankee]

31. You are wrong of course.

Any bullet that misses a major organ or circulatory system vessel is likely to not be fatal. It doesn't matter what it is made of - it's all about what it hits in the body. It may cause serious life altering injury, but that's not considered "death".

And no, this is not a "gun apologist" answer, it's actually a medical answer.

[Demsrule86]

43. I am not wrong.

Ordinary citizens should not have such weapons...and I fully expect at sometime an intelligent SCOTUS will find that a militia does not refer to an individual right to carry...I am sick sick of walking around with these asshats with guns strapped to their hip at the grocery store...big loser...at some point this will become a voting issue and the gun lobby will be done.

[NutmegYankee]

46. Nothing you just said had anything to do with your being wrong.

In fact, we agree on basically all of this post. However, on the medical claim from the previous post, you are still wrong.

[Blue_true]

30. Vests help bullets that break apart easily break apart while in the vest.

Armor piercing rounds are designed to clear armor mostly intact, then start other action like tearing into flesh or breaking apart once in the body. Society is better off without armor piecing bullets.

BTW, who TRIES to get shot? That is a new one.

[NutmegYankee]

32. Armor piercing was designed for vehicles, and is clearly a military use.

While the military does have ceramic armor vests that can reduce it's damage, civilian police don't wear armor of that quality routinely. It wouldn't fit under their shirts and would be uncomfortable for daily work. The problem for them is the rifle round has such a significant velocity that it can penetrate the vest, even when just lead. Now one object doing damage is a problem, but a bullet that fragments just increases the risk of death. More chances to tear open an artery.

Should civilians have AP rounds - HELL NO. But it's not because they are "cop killers". It's because they have no valid civilian use whatsoever. No animal in the woods has armored glass or metal sides.

[sl8]

38. Is that supported with evidence?

Last edited Sat Feb 3, 2018, 05:12 PM - Edit history (2)

I would have thought that projectiles designed to expand would be involved in more deaths than projectiles designed for penetrating armor, but that's only my guess.

Do you have numbers?

[linuxman]

33. But pretty much any deer rifle will penetrate a kevlar vest without breaking a sweat.

Show me a basic, popular rifle round used every deer season, and I'll show you a round that will slice through kevlar like butter.

It's not a special property of a round that makes it AP, it's the velocity and size, which pretty much every common centerfire rifle developed in the last 150 years has enough of.

AP ammo generally refers to a round with a special penetrator with the brass jacket, usually made of tungsten or some similarly super-dense metal. AP in that regard refers to the ability to penetrate steel armor of the type seen on vehicles, such as humvees and armored cars.

[SonofDonald]

12. There's a magazine called "Shotgun News"

Pick up a copy at your local major bookstore/news stand and take a look inside.

A real eye-opener, how much ammo do you want?.

[Initech]

20. Every time I hear one of the Trump humpers ragging on the "liberal media"...

I always want to ask them "OK wise guy, if there really is a liberal media, how come on every supermarket magazine aisle, I could count 12 different gun magazines, yet we only get one Vanity Fair?". Guarantee that would shut them up pretty quickly!

[linuxman]

34. That's pretty silly, though.

Nobody is suggesting there is a fashion-bias in media. I'm a 30 year old male and can name 10 fashion mags for sale in the racks off the top of my head. I dig guns, but I honestly don't know if I could do the same with gun mags.

[joshcryer]

15. Just a very "routine transaction" according to his lawyer.

Close the gun show loophole. He met the guy at a gun show, gave his card, met him somewhere else, and gave him almost a thousand rounds of ammo.

How many of these "routine transactions" happen every day without anyone know about it or there being a paper trail until after the fact (when the feds go over the texts and do interviews).

[linuxman]

35. Can you point me out a single shred of US law exempting gun shows from following established laws?

There is no gun show loophole.

[moriah]

39. Then fix the definition of commercial seller.

It used to be a certain number of guns a year, now it's whether most of your money comes from gun sales.

The "gun show loophole" is more accurately identified as the "part time seller loophole".

[linuxman]

41. Except it's not a loophole.

Selling guns habitually and in quantity without a license at a gunshow confers no protection vs. doing so in your livingroom or in a wal-mart parking lot.

The actual line between selling guns for personal reasons vs. commercial seems quite open to interpretation and the individual whims of law enforcement/ATF/prosecutors.

You can read more about it here. https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

As far as there used to having been a number of guns you could sell in a certain period, you'd have to show me where that was law, as I'm unfamiliar.

[moriah]

42. Surprised you aren't familiar.

Before 1986 the ATF figured selling four guns per year per person was a good easy "bright line" to define private party sellers (so a couple could unload, no pun intended, eight firearms annually).

The 1986 legislation changed that to a far more flexible definition and the secondary gun market is essentially unregulated as a result.

[Adrahil]

16. Ummm I buy ammo by the case, when I buy...

Cheaper that way, and doesn't go bad. That last case of ammo I bought was 1200 rounds. Lasts me about a year of range trips.

[NutmegYankee]

22. 720 would be a small purchase.

Ammo is commonly sold in "bricks" of 500. It's like buying bulk packs of other products to get a better price.

[EX500rider]

25. Why would that be suspicious?

Were you under the impression ammo was bought one round at a time?

Easy to go through a few hundred on a single trip to the range.

[Eliot Rosewater]

27. If you only care about your profit, like selling condos to russians, you wont care

Regardless of whether or not this purchase is large for guns what we know is there are too many guns and ALL of them should be locked up in militias

Having guns and thousands of rounds of ammo is something that should be a signal of something is wrong but in this country it isnt

SAD

[linuxman]

37. Yep. Own a 10/22 and four boxes of ammo? Welcome to a watch list!

[Skittles]

36. gun humping piece of shit COWARD

[Bradical79]

44. Why would he?

I doubt that's an unusual amount.