Do violent movies, tv, music, games deserve examination at this point?

[Skip Intro]

I know the whole gun debate rages (here anyway).

But I have yet to see much talk and analysis in regards to the rampant celebration of violence in this nation and its possible role in actual violence affecting much of the nation.

The tragedy in CO was terrible, but for many cities across the country, it could have been a typical weekend as far as numbers of people murdered. Why?

Is it, at least in part, because we are bombarded daily by images and sounds and words that glorify violence? Musicians who sing about killing are presented as idols. Many games, movies and tv shows routinely depict murder in graphic detail, even involving the consumer in the act in the case of games. Many books, and yes, comic books do the same.

Is it possible the barrage of such imagery and ideas have diminished the value of life in the eyes of many? Is today's violence a result, at least in part, of people becoming desensitized to the taking of lives?

Anyone who knows me here knows I am not suggesting censorship, and I know murder has been a theme of "entertainment" for a long, long time, but I have to wonder if we've crossed some line, either with content or presentation or in some other way.

[Alduin]

1. Seriously?

I play violent video games all the time (Skyrim and Assassins Creed are my favorites) and I never once have the desire to turn those games into reality.

[elleng]

3. How old are you?

What is your community/neighborhood like, in this regard? Movies?

[Alduin]

5. I don't understand what age has to do with it.

I've been playing video games since I was five, all the way back to Atari, and never once thought about turning those games into reality.

I think we should focus on other aspects of our culture that could have lead to the CO shootings. What was the shooter's home life like? Was he depressed? Did he have parental/authority issues? Was he being bullied? Abused?

I think it's naive to blame it only on violent video games and movies.

[elleng]

8. Its foolish to blame any one influence,

as its foolish to look for one answer to what makes a good school.

[Whiskeytide]

27. You can't really defend a position...

... based only on your own specific reaction to playing violent video games. I'm glad that it never occurs to you to let it leak into your reality, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have an impact somewhere on someone, to some degree.

A reasonable hypothesis would be that this kind of act arises from a mental disease, and that numerous factors can go into creating, stoking or triggering that disease. If you combine some kind of childhood trauma or abuse with some genetic defect, then mix it with abandonment issues, a poor self image and a side of depression, its reasonable to figure that adding some number of years of acting out explicitly violent acts in the very realistic fantasy world of video games could be a bad idea - especially if the person is young.

Our brains do train by conditioning, and it doesn't take much. Once, years ago, my family and I went to one of these beach amusement parks with a go-kart track. We rode them 20 times over a period of a couple of hours, and had a blast. One of the best parts of the experience was bumping - well, actually ramming - another kart out of your way as you passed them - not appreciated by the track operators, but we thought it was great. When we left, and I was pulling out of the parking lot behind my brother in law, I ALMOST rammed him - out of pure reflex - having to catch myself at the last second.

So how can we say that playing a violent video game doesn't work some mojo on our brains? And if that brain is already sick, what does it absorb to later delude the mind into acting out some horrific event? I has to be worth looking into.

And, btw - I understand much of the "recognized and accepted" research on this subject has been funded by the video game industry, and it concludes video games are safe. I thought distrust of corporatists with an agenda was the first rule of DU.

[Alduin]

59. Then it's the person's fault, isn't it?

That's like blaming the horse race track or casinos for people's gambling addictions.

[backscatter712]

31. Lately, I've been playing a lot of Left 4 Dead 2.

Nothing more fun than charging headlong into a horde of zombies with the chainsaw!

[Alduin]

44. But, you know it's a game, right?

Of course you do. Just like the other millions of us who play those types of games.

[backscatter712]

53. Well, duh. But really, I do wish that Left 4 Dead had a lawnmower as an available weapon...

Last edited Wed Jul 25, 2012, 06:02 PM - Edit history (1)

Though in one of the L4D levels, there is a house with an overturned lawnmower with a shoulder-strap on it, and a huge mess of blood and guts, as an homage to Brain Dead/Dead Alive...

[elleng]

2. Yes it is possible; even likely.

Only kind of censorship likely available would be self-censorship, and not likely to occur, imo.
The culture is messed up in this way, among others.

[Skip Intro]

6. yes nt

[snooper2]

4. Sure, everything else that is disliked in our society has been discussed

Why not!

[RKP5637]

7. What I think is happening is desensitization. Around here there are

so many murders it's just about become a ho hum when reported on the news. Less and less time is devoted to each murder.

Much of it is violence for profit, and a lyrical commentary, violence is vogue.

What I think happens is one gets a reinforcing of one by the other and the net/net of violence increases and increases and becomes the norm.

Yes, we are bombarded daily by images and sounds and words that glorify violence, and the crescendo builds and builds. It becomes the mindset of the nation, probably subliminally. Then comes the difficult question of how does one break that chain without censorship of sorts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. I'll slightly disagree

I think people are confusing Hollywood with real life.

Due to privacy laws, and general American squeamish nature, you will not see in the paper or evening news...an actual victim of a shooting, let alone an especially gory body.

Now, people get to see our amazing moulage artists, but saving private Ryan or Platoon are critiqued for being especially...violent (they get close), but Terminator is fine because it is a fantasy.

IMO we need a little more reality, and a lot less fantasy. Yup, i'd hate to find a relative was gunned down in the evening news, but people have really no idea.

Now, when Columbine happened I put a novel on ice...I don't know if I still have those files. The novel presupposed a few in the far right well, going to war. I stopped writing when I was working on the scene where they shoot up a local high school, as CNN went live to Columbine. When Rice sad none could predict a plane going into a building, guess what was part of the plot? It even became just like that novel when guy in Texas took his to the IRS building.

Now, here is where reality has not joined that fantasy, both were deemed terror attacks Blythe FBI in the novel...wake me up when in the real word that happens.

[RKP5637]

10. Yep, there could be a Transference of sorts going on ... n/t

[JDPriestly]

11. Good questions that each of us needs to consider for ourselves.

[white_wolf]

12. Is our entertainment really that much more violent?

I've read some of Shakespeare's plays, they aren't exactly peaceful. More importantly, what about our religious literature? The Bible contains a lot more violence than any videogame or movie you'll find and it is preached as God's truth, unquestionable. Another poster mentioned panics involving D&D when they were growing up and this reminds me of the same thing.

If you really want to deal with these issues let's focus on addressing the problems of bullying in our schools, the problems of lack of decent access to mental healthcare and reducing the stigmata that comes with trying to get mental help. I think those kinds of things would help a lot more than worrying about video games.

[Politicalboi]

13. Kids in Germany and Japan

Play the same games, and watch the same movies.

[JoeInNy]

26. Yes they do, they are also having sharp increas in crime

[link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Japan|

[Posteritatis]

45. Good old post hoc ergo propter hoc. (nt)

[backscatter712]

49. And Germany actually seriously censors its video games.

Anything with too much blood and gore gets censored, so game-makers have to make special versions for the German market with green blood & such.

It just goes to show that a correlation between video games and violence does not exist.

[Sea-Dog]

14. left out the msm turning murders into poster child's for sickos.

there was a large gray mammal in the room I thought someone should point out

[DisabledDem]

15. Not another censorship bullshit attempt

Fuckers such as Tipper Gore and Hillary Clinton were not in touch with pop culture when they decided to go after some of the most prestigious art/entertainment that came out during their McCarthyism witch hunts, such as Grand Theft Auto, a video game especially very popular with the youth but Hillary was deeply concerned with the violence and sex in the game. Shit like this keeps losing our voter base to third parties or gasp the Rebukes. Remember, the entertainment industry is one of the most staunch supporters of the Democratic party. I'm sure they don't want their work to be dumbed down just because some nanny soccer mom doesn't want Johnny watching American soliders limbs being blown out to pieces during a battle of Iwo Jima. And another group this hurts our party base with is the youth who are more likely play violent video games than old greezers such as Joe LIEberman, another piece of shit who thinks we shouldn't stock games like GTA onto the shelves in every store in America.

[WeekendWarrior]

16. No.

[gollygee]

17. America is a violent place

And therefore Americans like violence. But violent games don't cause killing sprees. They come from the same place. Our history - genocide of Native Americans, slavery, lynchings, etc. Our history will be here regardless of what movies we watch and what games we play.

I don't know how we as a country heal from our history but we don't appear to be doing the right things.

[Capt. Obvious]

18. No

[Nevernose]

19. Start by banning Shakespeare

Therefore, you men of Harfleur,
Take pity of your town and of your people,
Whiles yet my soldiers are in my command;
Whiles yet the cool and temperate wind of grace
O'erblows the filthy and contagious clouds
Of heady murder, spoil and villany.
If not, why, in a moment look to see
The blind and bloody soldier with foul hand
Defile the locks of your shrill-shrieking daughters;
Your fathers taken by the silver beards,
And their most reverend heads dash'd to the walls,
Your naked infants spitted upon pikes,
Whiles the mad mothers with their howls confused
Do break the clouds, as did the wives of Jewry
At Herod's bloody-hunting slaughtermen.
What say you? will you yield, and this avoid,
Or, guilty in defence, be thus destroy'd?

[Whiskeytide]

35. I'm not really disagreeing with you...

... Shake was violent and often disturbing. But it seems there has to be a difference between READING an account of violence, and actually PARTICIPATING in that violence in a simulated reality. When we read, our brain is much more active, reasoning through the text, imagining what is being described, and rationalizing it internally - I suppose. But when playing a video game, we become almost entranced. At least my 5 year old does when he plays Angry Birds on my phone. Its like I have to shake him back to reality.

I just think it deserves some consideration.

[Nevernose]

43. Assuming that video games are a cause

A premise which I find faulty, since people were doing plenty of horrible things for no reason long before we had electronic diversions.

But, assuming your premise is true: why are Americans so much more prone to random homicide than people in similar countries, with similar numbers of guns and violent video games? What makes us so different? I think that if we could answer that question, we might get to the heart of the matter.

[Whiskeytide]

57. I agree whole heartedly...

Violence is such a big part of our culture - and has always been. This country was founded on and expanded through horrific violence. That's the biggest difference.

And, I'm not saying video gaming is a "cause". Only that it deserves some consideration in the mix. If nothing else, it's might make an already destined mass murderer better at mass murdering simply by way of simulation practice.

[backscatter712]

50. Ban the Bible while we're at it - lots of blood & gore and sick & twisted shit in that book! n/t

[zappaman]

20. No. n/t

[HereSince1628]

21. While I accept that perception of guns as tools of conflict resolution is acquired

our movies are shown all over the world including Europe where gun violence seems to be much lower.

[jp11]

22. When can we blame parents for checking out of being involved in their kids lives

or really caring if their kids are decent people?

I think that is much more of an issue than anything, parents who work too much because they have little choice and are content that their kid isn't an obvious PIA smoking dope or drinking their beer while going out to rob liquor stores. I think the bar is low for many they are fine not knowing anything about their kids or being engaged in their lives, again a huge factor is they have so little time to be the role models their kids need or to spend quality time with them.

If we had better systems to support parents and of course jobs that paid a living wage then we could start to build something for kids and their parents. Hell classes in school about civics, community and engaging with other people in real life over superficial online relationships that while having value are not the pinnacle of human relations.

I think kids that are left to their own take on what should be entertainment and things that any 'sane' fractionally 'well' adjusted person would see as being fantasy and not applicable to real life. TV/Movies/videogames/books while having many things that relate to the real world, are not the same in any sense especially the over the top violence. My take is kids get wrapped up in that for lots of reasons from abuse/neglect/neurological defects/imbalances and so on but a big step to helping them or keeping them from leaving the real world to enter some sick fantasy is having real relationships with good decent people, like mom, dad, mom#2, dad#2, and so on.

I absolutely agree with you as a nation we don't deplore violence or killing anywhere near enough and having people treat eachother better and have better meaningful relations with them is a big step so is having a government that embodies the ideals we'd want our children, brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, etc to have as well. A government that kills people in unjust wars or without trial, assassinates, or just turns its back on those with problems doesn't help.

It isn't much of a lesson to say these are the things you should do in your life but we live in a country that doesn't do those things and we all pay for that with our money, blood, sweat and some with their very lives.

I think it has to start from the bottom, people demanding change and that change means they first have the opportunity to do the right thing in engaging with their kids and being there for them. From there it can go on to having a populace that won't allow the government to wage unjust wars or incarcerate people disproportionately based on race or sex, deny people rights they should have by birth, etc.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

23. No. nt

[Initech]

24. Not this crap again. Watch this:

[backscatter712]

28. You beat me to Frank Zappa!

"There are more love songs than anything else. If songs could make you do something we'd all love one another."

[Dawgs]

25. Come on. Enough of this bullshit.

We should be focusing on things that actually do cause these things - like poverty, abuse, bullying, and ignorance. You know, the things that liberals are actually fighting against.

[Javaman]

37. +1 nt

[Posteritatis]

48. Those are less inconvenient than a nice, moral-panicworthy scapegoat, though. (nt)

[backscatter712]

29. Ridiculous!

Sorry, the only correct response is "First Amendment, bitches!"

[Scootaloo]

30. They've been examined time and again

It's not the medium itself - as others are pointing out, nations with much lower crime rates often watch and play the same stuff as we do (Japanese cinema is some of the bloodiest I've ever seen.)

The problem America has is something else, something less glib than this. I do believe that media may be a contributing factor to the diminishment of empathy, but the larger problem is the American Mythology. That everything we have good in life came from kicking someone's ass.

We hold to the idea that kicking ass or even killing someone is a sign of being "hard" or "manly," that some people "need killing," that the solution to every problem is violence. This is reflected in our entertainment, but the entertainment is not the cause.

[Baclava]

32. no - we've been over this before

1. The availability of video games has led to an epidemic of youth violence.

According to federal crime statistics, the rate of juvenile violent crime in the United States is at a 30-year low. Researchers find that people serving time for violent crimes typically consume less media before committing their crimes than the average person in the general population. It's true that young offenders who have committed school shootings in America have also been game players. But young people in general are more likely to be gamers — 90 percent of boys and 40 percent of girls play.

The overwhelming majority of kids who play do NOT commit antisocial acts. According to a 2001 U.S. Surgeon General's report, the strongest risk factors for school shootings centered on mental stability and the quality of home life, not media exposure.

The moral panic over violent video games is doubly harmful. It has led adult authorities to be more suspicious and hostile to many kids who already feel cut off from the system. It also misdirects energy away from eliminating the actual causes of youth violence and allows problems to continue to fester.

http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/impact/myths.html

[Hugabear]

33. I do believe that we have a culture that thrives on violence

And I include myself in that group, as I occasionally enjoy various forms of entertainment that include plenty of violence.

However, I also do not believe in censorship. We created this culture, we're the ones demanding violence with our entertainment, so it's up to us to change it.

[limpyhobbler]

34. Maybe our endless wars and police abuse are to blame?

Last edited Wed Jul 25, 2012, 03:43 PM - Edit history (1)

[Javaman]

36. No.

out of the literally millions of people who play "violent" video games, one sociopath goes nuts and now video games are the focus?

If you take the percentage of people who commit mass violence and against those who play video games and create a Venn diagram to see how many overlap, you will no doubt get less then 1% of 1% of 1% that commit such crimes.

our screwed up society is always looking for answers to our problems by looking outward instead of inward.

our society needs a healthy dose of self examination and how we relate to each other.

some screwed up guy commits a heinous crime and now we should examine video games? Just think how crazy that is? How about looking how he interacted with others, or how his family interacted or if there had been missed anti-social clues or any number of a thousand things that set this halfwit off?

Naaa, why bother? right? Let's just use the band-ade excuse of video games.

we are such a colossally vapid and shallow society.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. Good God this same old wack again.

I am not personally 'bombarded' with images which glorify violence, why are you? What are you speaking of? Who are these 'musicians who sing about killing' and what songs are you speaking of? And who 'presents them like idols'?
Why do you lack specifics? Why can't you own what you are saying, which is that it is not the actual wars, not poverty, not discrimination, not our profit first health care system, but it is in fact a comic book which causes all sorrows?
Additionally, I think all DU posters who imagine they are seeing some 'line' being 'crossed' need to be able to name that line, say how it was crossed and who put the line there. This whole 'we've crossed some line' routine is getting as old as it is vague.

[el_bryanto]

39. I think it requires constant examination. That's why I never stop watching violent TV and Movies

For examination purposes of course. Now off to see "Savages."

Bryant

[mainer]

40. At my grocery store: gun magazines galore. But no Playboy.

My hubby pointed out how lovingly firearm photographs are displayed on glossy gun magazines, the equivalent of gun porn. But god forbid there be a glimpse of a woman's nipple.

Our society worships violence and is terrified of sex.

[Dash87]

41. This debate isn't all bad. It's at least lead to some campy TV plots.

The worst of which spawned from shows like Law and Order, or even worse, the barf-worthy, pretentious tripe known as "Touched by an Angel," where playing a video game turns innocent young jocks into blood-thirsty, drooling killers ready to shoot anyone in an instant.

My own personal opinion is that violence affects the already mentally ill in a way that makes them worse. It has very little effect on the sound mind, which can distinguish between fiction and reality.

[Marr]

42. Video games and movies are a reflection of cultural values-- not the source of them.

They're businesses, after all. They're selling what people want to buy.

[The Straight Story]

46. If one can blame an inanimate object for the problems, blaming other things is game too (nt)

[redqueen]

47. I think so.

No need to get all the libertarian sorts all foaming at the mouth so no need to ban anything... just a calm examination of how these things are portrayed and whether they glorify violence and whether that is something to be celebrated or shunned.

Only recently are most people starting to end the celebration of bullying. Up to now it was treated like no big deal.

Hopefully soon we'll see the same thing happen with respect to the glorification of violence.

[DefenseLawyer]

51. What's all this fuss I've been hearing about sax and violins on television?

Don't people appreciate music anymore?

[slampoet]

52. Tell me what the Japanese are doing Right.

More permissive content.

Less actual violence.

[gregoire]

54. And drone strikes

Killing just doesn't get any more impersonal than that.

[JoePhilly]

55. Only if some one takes the CD and uses it as the weapon.

When I was a kid, my friends and I reenacted various wars. We divided into teams a killed each other.

Except we never actually killed each other. But we did stalk each other, sneak up, and perform an act of simulated killing.

That was many years ago ... none of us actually killed anyone.

[-..__...]

60. CD Cenobite will fuck your shit up...

[reformist2]

56. I think the population is addicted to violent entertainment, and that it has an effect on them.

How much of an effect? Just assume a bell curve of resulting behaviors...

[One_Life_To_Give]

58. Compared to hanging people from their &%*$

Seems humanity has always been pretty barbaric to people who are not part of "our" group. A hundred years ago one could have done the same to African Americans and it would just be a footnote in history. A few hundred years ago Native Americans likewise. We hung Spanish men from their privates to learn where the treasure ships might be found.

Wasn't so long ago hurricane rescue included bullets for pets and/or livestock. Preparing dinner meant picking up a hatchet and heading for the hen-house. And we think we are somehow less civilized now? More likely we are surrounded by people we view as other. Being far less homogenous than most parts of the world. And our compassion/empathy is reserved only for those members of our group.

But we are on a positive trend. Maye we will grow up and have compassion and empathy for those people who are different from ourselves.

[Carolina]

61. there are many in this thread who

poo, poo your questions.

I don't. While it's true America is a violent nation (has been since its inception), I find the level of graphic violence in all media appalling. Violence as entertainment is fuel to the fire for those so inclined or mentally ill.

The key word is GRAPHIC. Just as sex used to be expectation, then the long kiss, then fade to black; violence was a shot, someone collapsing, the end. Now sex is casual, moaning, flashes of bare flesh and suggestive motions while violence really pushes the envelop with rapid fire artillery-looking weaponry, exploding flesh and gushing gore. Really?!!! Who needs that?

Is this a good thing? I think not. And I think your questions are valid. We have crossed the line in depiction.

Yes, I'm old and, and like many of my baby boom compatriates, lament the coarsening of our discourse and culture, and am glad I was born when I was born.

Good post Skip!