Something that bothers me about the movie Wonder Woman

[PJMcK]

In another post, I made this comment about the film:

She's a killer. Most DC Comic heroes don't kill people. Batman never used a gun. Superman wouldn't kill someone. The Flash would just daze criminals with his speed.

But, in the movie, Wonder Woman is a killing machine. Granted, she's fighting bad guys and bad "gods/forces."

It's still an odd way to make an "empowering" statement.

[trueblue2007]

1. well what else do you do to nazis ????

the AVENGERS killed people

[mythology]

21. The movie was set during WWI, not a lot of Nazis.

[trueblue2007]

24. okay, whatever ..... killing a bunch of BAD GERMANS..... EVIL PEOPLE.

[Act_of_Reparation]

44. Did you fail history class or did your history class fail you?

Just curious.

[trueblue2007]

64. no need to be rude.

[Act_of_Reparation]

72. I disagree.

This an auspicious time to be rude.

[jl_theprofessor]

77. Then you're being a dick.

And the forces of Kaiser Wilhelm II needed to be stopped in the same way Hitler needed to be stopped, not to mention it's his war that set the stage for WWII.

[zipplewrath]

80. Hmmm

Many people have gotten PhD's on the subject of the origins of WW I and they don't all profess the same conclusions as you.

And it "set the stage" for WW II because of the terms demanded by France.

But back to the point of the original point. Many superhero's battle "bad/evil" people, and generally don't kill them. It's not absolute by any stretch, but it did seem to be the overriding theme. (As it was of the original A-Team which is why I called it a live action cartoon).

[Act_of_Reparation]

81. So you failed history class, too.

Fascinating.

[trueblue2007]

2. And are you making your comment sexist ?

[PJMcK]

5. Respectfully, I don't understand your question

Please clarify why my observation about this movie is "sexist."

Thank you, in advance.

[trueblue2007]

11. well wonder woman is a FEMALE hero and you're calling her a killer .... a murderer

She's a killer. you said.

there are plenty of super heros out there that kill also. there are plenty of men characters that slaughter. I see that you are singling her out alone.

Why are you singling out a woman??
I call your thread sexist.

[PJMcK]

12. Thanks

I never wrote that Wonder Woman is a murderer.

The scene when she plunged her sword through her adversary”s torso illustrates my point that she’s a killer. While it’s a justified killing, is that the message we want our young people to learn? Are those positive values of a progressive society?

Sexist? Thanks a lot.

[trueblue2007]

20. SORRY BUT I CALL THEM AS I SEE THEM

i see you calling a WOMAN a killer ///// killer - murderer. what is the difference
and there are other DC characters who kill. Not just HER.





29 Superheroes Who Have Killed People - Ranker
https://www.ranker.com/list/superheroes-who-killed-people/ranker-comics
Superman Kills Lois Lane is listed (or ranked) 2 on the list 29 Superheroes Photo: Tom Taylor/DC Comics Injustice: Gods Among Us #1. After being gassed with fear toxin laced with kryptonite by the Joker, Superman thinks Lois Lane is Doomsday. It's only after he's taken her to space and killed her that the effects wear off ...
15 Superheroes Who Are Surprisingly Okay With Killing - Screen Rant
https://screenrant.com/marvel-dc-superheroes-that-kill-okay-with-killing/
Oct 18, 2016 - While most superheroes find themselves adverse to killing, there are those who are surprisingly fine with crossing that line. ... As an element of the Presence, the divine creator of the DC Universe, the Spectre has virtually limitless power; the power of a god, for all intents and purposes. As Corrigan, Spectre ...
18 DC Supervillains With The Highest Body Counts - Screen Rant
https://screenrant.com/most-deadly-supervillains-highest-body-counts-dc/
Sep 22, 2016 - The DC Universe is a scary place, possibly even scarier than Marvel's. While it might be a universe where the Justice League usually saves the day and cheerful little super-dogs can survive planetary explosions, it's also filled with dozens of maniacal alien warlords just looking to enslave the next planet ...
Superheroes that kill bad guys. : DCcomics - Reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/comments/.../superheroes_that_kill_bad_guys/
Jan 15, 2013 - Click Here to Assign User Flair. New to comics? Start here! Welcome to /r/DCcomics. A place for fans of DC's comics, movies, fan creations, video games, and anything else related to one of the largest comic book publishers in the world, and home of the World's Greatest Superheroes! Weekly Posts.

[Loki Liesmith]

29. Do you read comics?

[WhiteTara]

32. Poster is simply pointing out that many many many

male heroes kill. another poster called the only female hero (so) far a killer and murderer saying those comic male heroes didn't kill.

[Loki Liesmith]

33. The poster appears unaware that tier-1 heroes generally dont kill

And if they do, the storylines in which they have make it a point of great anguish for them and because of which they suffer significant consequences. A comic reader would know that.

I don’t care whether WW kills or not but the argument that the OP is being sexist is nonsense.

[PJMcK]

34. Thank you for understanding my point

The top name superheroes used to go to great lengths to protect lives. Modern day comics are much more violent and gruesome, not unlike our society.

[pangaia]

52. LOLO!!! OL..

[PJMcK]

15. A further thought

James Bond movies are pretty popular.

I don’t consider them progressive. He’s not a really “nice” guy.

Somehow, I believe you tnink we’re opposed. I don’t think we are.

[sfwriter]

16. It's not sexist. He singled out DC heroes, her brothers.

He accurately cited and described the pacifist nature of three of them. She used to be iconic for outwitting villains and only became more bloodthisty in the hands of comic boo writers who had no idea how to portray women's power without a bodycount. Now that said, this was a war movie, so I think that the body count may owe more to setting than an intention to make her tougher. The entire film is worth the single scene where she charges the German trench.

I was more disturbed by the fact that she needed the loss of Steve to motivate her to defeat the big bad guy at the end. That's just shallow writing, and I thought, sexist. She was losing until her boyfriend died? She should have owned that villain AND saved Steve.

That said, DC movies are the worst though. I haven't made it through half of them. Wonder Woman is the bet of the bunch. You have to go back to the Nolan Batman to find one this good. So I decided to watch Justice league based on how much I liked this Wonder Woman. She was the best written character in it. While her scenes were great, I couldn't help noticing all the little ways the sexed her up. The director seemed to want to shoot her for maximum cleavage at times. There is a shot in the middle of the movie that opens on her but. Most of the other characters were flat or suffered inexplicable changes to their backstories.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

3. She gets shit done.

[PJMcK]

6. Agreed

Necessary shit.

[MaryMagdaline]

4. Women have to do more

[Pope George Ringo II]

7. Well, Batman killed the Joker at least once that I can think of.

The latest Superman incarnation killed Zod. She's not The Punisher, but some killing, especially of combatants on a battlefield, doesn't seem out of character for a warrior.

[sfwriter]

17. Movies are bloodthirstier these days.

[Act_of_Reparation]

73. Minor differences:

Batman kills the Joker after a protracted, gut-wrenching internal conflict that left his worldview and sense of justice in tatters (comics) vs. Batman kills legions of anonymous bad guys without so much as a second thought (Snyder's shitfest movie universe).

[hurple]

8. Not seen the other DC movies have you?

There's killing galore!

Superman gets in a fight that destroys a city, Batman fires missles into getaway trucks.

What Wonder Woman does in her movie is tame compared to the others.

[obamanut2012]

57. Right -- WW is trying to save civilians

Her fighting is at least on a battlefield, not destroying cities and civilians like both Superman, Batman, and my beloved Avengers do.

But hey, let's cut down a movie and heroine who means a lot to girls and women, BECAUSE SHE IS A KILLER!!!!!

Which shows the OP knows nothing about the movie or WW.

[redgreenandblue]

67. The biggest problem with the movie is that it is dumb jingoism that oversimplifies WWI.

That the lead character will kill people in such a piece and have some ahistorical justification for it isn't suprising.

[jl_theprofessor]

78. No, the biggest problem

is that you believe the movie was jingoistic.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

9. Batman has killed Joker numerous times.

In the graphic novel "The Dark Knight Returns", in the 1989 Batman film, and in Christopher Nolan's "The Dark Knight". Not to mention a young Bruce Wayne murdering Ras Al'Gul in "Gotham".

Flash murdered Gorilla Grodd, Scott Wells, and many others in various comics. Hell, he even murdered Bruce Wayne in "Flashpoint".

Superman killed Lois Lane in "Injustice", Superboy killed Pantha, Green Arrow killed Prometheus...

And don't get me started on Marvel.

[aidbo]

62. I just want to point out that in Nolans Dark Knight Batman doesnt kill The Joker.

Here’s his final scene. Apparently there’s an alternative version of this scene where he does kill him, but not in the theatrical release.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

63. You're right...

I was thinking about the alternate ending...

[IluvPitties]

10. I hate superheroes. I know, I'm weird...

[David__77]

13. Wonder Woman will always be Lynda Carter to me.

I don’t know if that version of Wonder Woman killed anyone!

[Demtexan]

18. I think Lynda was picked for a male eye candy.

I could not watch that show.

The show was a comic book to me.

It seemed Lynda Carter's version was a little to sissy.

Now Gal took it to a all new version.

The training scenes were great.

Tough for battle.

[David__77]

19. I can understand that perspective.

While I used to watch that show at age 4 or 5 so long ago, I do now think she was pretty self-determined. It wasn’t like Lyle Waggoner bossed Wonder Woman around, as far as I recall.

[Demtexan]

22. It was a tv show not a movie.

That version of Wonder Woman would not have made it in Gal's version.

The movie was more physical.

The women looked like fighters.

Tough.

They took on the Germans on the beach without guns.

[JHB]

36. Also the matter of when the TV show aired...

1975-79. Having your protagonists killing people wouldn't have made it past Standards and Practices.

Heck, in the tail end of that timeframe, the original Battlestar Galactica had to make the Cylons into robots instead of their original idea of lizard-people in armor because S&P would only ok shooting them in just about every episode if they were "just machines."

War toys were out of fashion, so G.I. Joe had an "Adventure Team" braving ancient tombs and shark-infested waters, the only gun in sight a speargun to take care of the sharks.

And in comics? The Punisher debuted around then, with his guns firing non-lethal "rubber bullets".

[shanny]

28. Ugh

That's all I have to say about that.

[mcar]

14. Umm OK

[Bettie]

23. She was an Amazon, trained for war

not for giving a pep talk and telling people to do better next time.

[Quixote1818]

25. She was fighting an army under the control of Ares that would have taken over the world

Not sure what else she was supposed to do?

[Lotusflower70]

26. Hmmm

Maybe it's empowering because she kicks ass and fights back. She isn't helpless or waiting to be rescued. Is the issue that it's a woman doing the killing?

[TlalocW]

27. Actually, in his first couple appearances

Batman did use a gun and killed people and one undead vampire.

TlalocW

[Revanchist]

30. Don't try to compare the movies to comic books

Batman might not use a gun but he'll blow you up in a hartbeat

[Behind the Aegis]

31. Batman has used a gun and killed people.

As for Superman not killing anyone...

Wonder Woman is an Amazon. She was fighting Germans in WWI; death was a given. It was her mission to kill the God of War, Ares.

So what is odd, is how people forget these heroes kill...Green Arrow has killed, Black Lightening has killed, and the list goes on. And though you said DC, I will say one word...

DEADPOOL!

[PJMcK]

42. Times have changed

First, I wasn't entirely clear: I was referring to the original comic books. This movie is from a modern re-boot of the Superman story. Their aesthetics are wildly different. The movie "Wonder Woman," which I enjoyed immensely, was created with the modern aesthetics.

Second, in this clip, Superman obviously had to weigh Zod's life against those innocents he was threatening. It's a great climactic scene. I haven't seen the movie but now my interest is piqued. Thanks!

[Captain Stern]

35. Your comparison isn't entirely fair.

You're comparing the Wonder Woman in the movie to the Superman, Batman, and Flash that are in the comics. The Wonder Woman in the comics didn't kill people either.

You should be comparing the Wonder Woman in the movies to the recent movie Batman and Superman. They do kill people.

[PJMcK]

39. You're right

I'm older and grew up reading DC comics. It was a kinder, gentler time and entertainment wasn't nearly as coarse as it has become.

For the record, I'm not a fan of superhero movies. I did find "Wonder Woman" to be very good, however.

[obamanut2012]

60. But that wouldn't "prove" his point taht Wonder Woman IA A KILLER!!!!

And thus, a bad role model, unlike Batman and Superjesus.

[PJMcK]

71. Superjesus!!!

I love that!

Thank you for the huge laugh!

[LanternWaste]

37. No doubt, she would have been much more empowering had she stayed home and baked cookies.

No doubt, she would have been much more empowering had she stayed home and baked cookies.

[Dr. Strange]

38. You're thinking old school.

In this age of gritty, messy, "realistic" super hero movies (at least on the DC side), killing happens. Batman is burning his bat symbol into criminals, Super Man straight up kills Zod, and Wonder Woman kills her opponents.

There's less of that on the Marvel side, although in the movie Logan, he shoves his claws right through the heads of some of the bad guys.

[PJMcK]

40. Yeah, I'm old school

Upthread, Captain Stern fairly observed that I was comparing the older comic books with the modern movies. Apples and oranges, really.

I'm not a fan of superhero movies although I thought Nolan's first two Batman movies were an effective re-boot of the series.

[obamanut2012]

61. Then you should edit or delete your OP

But you won't.

[cagefreesoylentgreen]

58. I dont think Logan was produced by Marvel

As in not in the same Marvel Cinematic Universe like Iron Man et al. But you still have a good point.

But I do like little touches like the scene in Ant-Man where one of the good guys realizes that the bad guys he knocked out will die in a bomb blast and he goes back for them. To me, that’s the way heroes, super or not, should act.

[Dr. Strange]

69. Right.

That's over in the 20th Century Fox block of the Marvel Universe. If Marvel ever gets those rights back, I think they would be fine with movies like Logan and Deadpool, but I'm not sure about Disney.

I loved Deadpool. I'd hate to give up those kind of movies. Someone's gotta make the chimi-fucking-changas.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

75. Captain America tossed people to their apparent deaths both in his movies and Avengers.

There was an a pretty strong allusion that Hulk killed people in Avengers 2.

[jmg257]

41. People die - especially in war.

Kill enough of them and they’ll stop sending more.

[FSogol]

43. Translation: What about the poor defenseless Germans!

Last edited Wed Jan 31, 2018, 11:47 AM - Edit history (1)

[PJMcK]

45. It was World War One

There weren't any Nazis.

Further, it's pretty lame to think I would defend Nazis. Thanks for your thoughtful opinion.

[Tipperary]

50. Nazis were WWll. This movie takes place in WWl.

[FSogol]

51. Point taken, but we don't usually call people involved in war, killers as long as they

comply with the UCMJ and/or Geneva Convention.

[redgreenandblue]

66. You should brush up your history. nt

[Act_of_Reparation]

46. Zack Snyder set the tone for the DC movies.

And it is a decidedly Zack Snyder tone... violent, shallow, and melodramatic.

[Orrex]

47. Forgive me, but that's simply not correct.

15 Times Wonder Woman Killed(Check out #15 on the list!)

The Six Most Brutal Murders Committed by Batman (Note that that's not all of his brutal murders--just the top six.)

15 Times Superman Killed his Enemies

Also, Barry Allen was arrested after he killed Professor Zoom in The Flash #324, and he killed Savitar in Flash: Rebirth #1

[PJMcK]

48. No forgiveness needed, you're partly right

Somewhere upthread I clarified that I was comparing the aesthetics of the original comics with those of the modern reboots.

In your Superman and Wonder Woman examples, all of them come from the more modern style of story-telling. The exception is from the TV show and in that case she's terminating a clone; that's not really a killing, (unless you're the clone!).

In the Batman examples, it surprised me to see that early in the comic's history, Batman did indeed kill. The editors must have made a determination to discontinue that course as later in the series, he didn't kill. Could it be because of the Comics Code that was forced on the comic industry by Congress?

[Orrex]

49. Batman is a big surprise, I agree!

1986's The Dark Knight Returns came out during my heyday of comic-buying, and I was a little disturbed to see Bats using a gun not once but twice! The first is when he uses a rifle to fire a grappling line between Gotham's Twin Towers in issue 1, and then he guns down a Mutant in issue 2 with a machine gun (similarly staged with a Russian dude in Dawn of Justice).

I complained about this at the time, crying "Batman doesn't use guns!" This was pre-internet, of course.

Then a buddy of mine, an even bigger comic book geek, brought out some collected edition of early Detective Comics and Batman issues, and he showed me in undeniable four-color truth that Batman used to be totally down with a little lethal force now and then.

Good points about Supes & Wonder Woman, though I have a feeling that she might had a somewhat terminal attitude toward Japanese soldiers during the WWII era...

[NewJeffCT]

54. The Dark Knight series was a game changer for me

I never really read DC comics from the early 70s through that series coming out in 1986. To me, even though I was a kid throughout the 70s, DC was always the ones that were made for little kids and Marvel was for more mature/smarter kids. Plus, being shy, nerdy and bookish as a kid, I identified with Peter Parker, and not billionaires Bruce Wayne or Oliver Queen nor nigh invincible alien Clark Kent.

That was until The Dark Knight came out.

Too bad Frank Miller later turned into a RWer later on, as Dark Knight was also a dark take on the Reagan era.

[Orrex]

55. Agree completely about Miller

The Dark Knight Returns and Batman: Year One transformed comics almost single-handedly, and both stories still hold up today.

Miller also did IMO amazing work on Daredevil, much of which played out as recently as the Netflix series.

But Miller turned into a real asshole beginning in the 90s, and he never looked back. I've read some of his writings post-2001, and he drifted into straight-up, unabashed Islamophobic mania. He also went off the rails with Batman, turning him into a psychotic child abuser.

Weird shit. His best days are long behind him, and I suspect that he knows it.

[NewJeffCT]

53. The movies have been different than the comics

In the comics, it's rare for ANY hero - Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, Thor, etc - to outright kill the bad guys, especially the human ones. (I think this might have changed since I was a regular reader of comics, but I could not say for sure, as there seems to be a bigger emphasis on more "mature" graphic novels the past 10-15 years)

However, the movies typically have shown a need for closure with bad guys, hence the Jack Nicholson Joker dying at the end the Michael Keaton Batman, Harry Osborn/the Green Goblin dying at the end of Spider-Man with Tobey Maguire, etc

[obamanut2012]

56. You just "toned" Diana?!

OMFG

DU never changes.

[oberliner]

59. Superman wouldn't kill someone?

Tell that to General Zod.

[redgreenandblue]

65. There isn't anything progressive about the movie. For starters, the Germans weren't the "bad guys"

in WWI.

"Goddess takes sides in morally ambiguous human war for a man". That is female empowerment "American style" for you

Wrapped in a package of jingoism.

[FSogol]

68. They weren't the bad guys? Everyone on the Lusitania thought otherwise. n/t

[Texasgal]

70. What a weird thread!

[aikoaiko]

74. Good "guys" killing bad "guys" is a fine way to make an empowering statement.

What could possibly be wrong with that?

[PJMcK]

76. There was a different behavior in the comics

Perhaps you never read the comics from the Golden Age. In general, the superheroes did not kill their opponents. There was a very different aesthetic and tone to the writing and cartooning.

In the Modern Age, especially with the advent of illustrated novels, the tone turned much darker. This is reflected in the violence and gruesomeness of many of the superhero movies and TV shows.

Beginning in the 1950s, Congress became concerned with the quality of comic books. In order to prevent government intervention, they created the Comics Code Authority to approve all comic books prior to publication. If the book was approved, the publisher could put the CCA seal-of-approval on its cover. Here's a link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority

In essence, it was censorship.

[aikoaiko]

79. You're right, I'm not a comic person.

I thought you were asking more generically if this version of WW was empowering rather than the comparison of previous WW or DC heroes.