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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWow, wow, wow! Flake!
Last edited Fri Jan 19, 2018, 07:52 AM - Edit history (1)
...Listening to Jeff Flake.
This is what we've been waiting for, whatever the impact or outcome. A Republican speaking truth to power against his own party's president on the Senate floor, and boy, is he bringing it!
It's not about this conservative Senator's voting record, we all know he's sowing what he's reaped, to his benefit, or not. It's the portrait that most Americans will see of this dyed-in-the-wool republican calling out his own president with strong and persuasive language that each and every one here should endorse.
Skepticism is well and correct when dealing with republicans, but cynicism serves no one except demagogues and those resigned to fate.
This is one for the history books, folks.
read Jeff Flake's speech:
excerpt:
"Mr. President, near the beginning of the document that made us free, our Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson wrote: "We hold these truths to be self-evident ..." So, from our very beginnings, our freedom has been predicated on truth. The founders were visionary in this regard, understanding well that good faith and shared facts between the governed and the government would be the very basis of this ongoing idea of America.
As the distinguished former member of this body, Daniel Patrick Moynihan of New York, famously said: "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." During the past year, I am alarmed to say that Senator Moynihan's proposition has likely been tested more severely than at any time in our history.
It is for that reason that I rise today, to talk about the truth, and its relationship to democracy. For without truth, and a principled fidelity to truth and to shared facts, Mr. President, our democracy will not last.
2017 was a year which saw the truth -- objective, empirical, evidence-based truth -- more battered and abused than any other in the history of our country, at the hands of the most powerful figure in our government. It was a year which saw the White House enshrine "alternative facts" into the American lexicon, as justification for what used to be known simply as good old-fashioned falsehoods. It was the year in which an unrelenting daily assault on the constitutionally-protected free press was launched by that same White House, an assault that is as unprecedented as it is unwarranted. "The enemy of the people," was what the president of the United States called the free press in 2017.
Mr. President, it is a testament to the condition of our democracy that our own president uses words infamously spoken by Josef Stalin to describe his enemies. It bears noting that so fraught with malice was the phrase "enemy of the people," that even Nikita Khrushchev forbade its use, telling the Soviet Communist Party that the phrase had been introduced by Stalin for the purpose of "annihilating such individuals" who disagreed with the supreme leader.
This alone should be a source of great shame for us in this body, especially for those of us in the president's party. For they are shameful, repulsive statements. And, of course, the president has it precisely backward -- despotism is the enemy of the people. The free press is the despot's enemy, which makes the free press the guardian of democracy. When a figure in power reflexively calls any press that doesn't suit him "fake news," it is that person who should be the figure of suspicion, not the press."
read more: http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/17/politics/jeff-flake-speech/index.html
watch:
spooky3
(34,476 posts)Tune in if you can. He is laying out a strong case for the damage Trump is doing by undermining the freedom of the press and how lying undermines American institutions.
global1
(25,270 posts)reaction to this speech.
spooky3
(34,476 posts)You need at least two deviants to begin to break down the power of the minority. Who else will step up?
global1
(25,270 posts)spooky3
(34,476 posts)Keep pressing together with Flake. And ideally, it should be someone who is staying in the Congress but willing to leave if things do not change. Takes a lot of courage.
cilla4progress
(24,766 posts)trump will come up with a mean nickname
Other repubs will ignore
flibbitygiblets
(7,220 posts)cilla4progress
(24,766 posts)Ha!
DesertRat
(27,995 posts)Founded by Flake's Mormon pioneer ancestors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowflake,_Arizona
flibbitygiblets
(7,220 posts)onit2day
(1,201 posts)and supports him 90% of the time. He just wants his rhetoric to change not his agenda. Another GOP phony but isn't that what "Flake" stands for. In a 51-49 senate Flake has tremendous power to stop unqualified jurors for the federal bench is but one instance Flake to stand up against this would be dictator.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Flake's actions are extremely damaging to the country, despite his pretty words.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Motownman78
(491 posts)With Dem over-performance as shown last night. Dems last night gained an average of 21% from 2016, and HRC only lost AZ by 6 points.
LenaBaby61
(6,977 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 17, 2018, 08:14 PM - Edit history (2)
Are mostly all Flake HAS, because he goes along with Fatso-in-chief's/GOP legislation which is destroying and destabilizing our country.
Flake's sound & fury signifying NOTHING
BobTheSubgenius
(11,564 posts)Too little, too late.
bench scientist
(1,107 posts)Flake voted for the tax scam.
Hes voted for Trumps agenda.
This is designed to make Flake look good nothing more.
WyLoochka
(1,629 posts)He would do huge tax cuts no matter who was President because he believes that supply side trickle down crap. He agrees that the government should not provide health insurance - it should be all private etc.
It is actually Ryan and the Freedom Caucus calling most of the shots - manipulating that obese orange goomba every step of the way. Flake will go with most of it because he has long agreed with most of it. Trump has no influence on him.
Flake has never supported trump, or his own party's xenophobes, on immigration.
n2doc
(47,953 posts)Otherwise, he is just an enabler hypocrite.
Bleacher Creature
(11,257 posts)bullwinkle428
(20,630 posts)reflection
(6,286 posts)Talk is cheap, especially for someone not running anymore.
NCjack
(10,279 posts)and nominees, all built on lies. Flake thinks his speech will position him to run for prez. Not going to happen.
n2doc
(47,953 posts)The bill to bring back Net Neutrality. Supported by a strong majority of voters in BOTH parties.
NCjack
(10,279 posts)LisaM
(27,830 posts)Net Neutrality helps guarantee a free press.
dalton99a
(81,570 posts)livetohike
(22,163 posts)finished.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)Zoonart
(11,878 posts)While I applaud any R for speaking out against tRump, I will pay ore attention when Flake stops voting WITH Stalin.
bearsfootball516
(6,377 posts)He wouldnt get a single vote from the Trump base, and without them, he wouldnt have a shot.
NRaleighLiberal
(60,019 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)I'm guessing a lot of Republicans agree with Flake, but they also know that Trump is very weak and easy to manipulate, so they will get their agenda passed and he'll be happy to sign whatever they put in front of him.
not fooled
(5,801 posts)the puke agenda is 1000x worse, because it's a comprehensive plan for turning the US into a neofeudal state.
Unless dump pushes the nuclear button. But then we'll all be dead*
*unless the nuke talk is simply a way to frighten the peasantry, which I wouldn't put past this cabal of vandals.
oasis
(49,408 posts)spanone
(135,874 posts)oasis
(49,408 posts)stray from the dictates of their puppet masters.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Some of us are without TV access during the day.
oasis
(49,408 posts)of despotic tyrants of other nations, and it's dangerous to our American democracy.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)hatrack
(59,592 posts)Who cares?
SweetieD
(1,660 posts)spooky3
(34,476 posts)Correctly describing how Trump is undermining the media and why its important. He needs just a few allies to turn the tide.
JHB
(37,161 posts)The speech is welcome, but without action its hot air.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)but he needs to do the other 99% and stop voting with Stalin and stop helping the Republicans.
Mr. Ected
(9,670 posts)But what he IS doing is drawing a line in the sand between GOP Trump backers and GOP Never-Trumpers.
What starts as a slight fissure could evolve into a giant fracture, thereby denuding the Trump effect within the Republican Party.
Yes, we can all chastise Flake for his conservative beliefs, which run counter to our own...but let's applaud him for standing against Trump and his deplorable base as to their fascist tendencies.
bigtree
(86,005 posts)...eventually, if we're to make any progress addressing the present danger in the WH, we'll need to splinter off some faction of republicans.
Also, there's immeasurable value in vocalizing the criticisms Flake leveled at his president, much more from a member of his own party. At the very least, it's a good counter to the prevailing, destructive politics coming from the WH which is being emulated around the nation.
BoneyardDem
(1,202 posts)above everything else he is still a Republican. He may despise the methods and madness that is Trump, but he still believes in RW philosophies and standards. He will not vote against those things just to spite Trump. He actually believed the tax plan was good. So he clearly dislikes Trump's administrative methods, dislikes Trump's tarnishing the office of POTUS, but is strongly aligned with Republicans. Why anyone should assume that Flake is supposed to suddenly vote all the time with Dems is totally silly.
not fooled
(5,801 posts)hard-core libertarian. No ifs, ands, or buts.
I don't doubt that he is sincere in believing that dump is a threat to democracy. He also sincerely believes in the free market fairy tale. Although my suspicion is that these types are just subconsciously covering up their greed.
No winners here.
PatSeg
(47,586 posts)regardless of his voting record. He is doing what more republicans need to be doing. They are so afraid of losing Trump's unhinged base, so they'll end up going down with the ship instead. Not an ounce of integrity among them.
Time for change
(13,718 posts)We can applaud his great speech and still criticize or condemn his voting.
Because words DO matter, and they can matter quite a bit. They matter because of the influence they are capable of exerting. And I've heard few speeches in my life that in my opinion have the potential to influence people as much as this one -- coming as it is from a U.S. Senator in Trump's own party -- which is not at all known for vehement criticism of its leaders.
Iggo
(47,565 posts)greatauntoftriplets
(175,749 posts)But it proves that talk is cheap when you consider Flake's pro-drumpf voting record.
mn9driver
(4,428 posts)He is a right wing asshole.
JustAnotherGen
(31,879 posts)I'm at work. Walking between buildings and can't see what's going on.
Flake called 140 Stalin?!?
mindfulNJ
(2,367 posts)if he rubber stamps everything in Trump's agenda. He's still a shill for the fascists.
samnsara
(17,635 posts)kennetha
(3,666 posts)He laid out a case sufficient to justify impeachment. that is not a small thing.
Response to bigtree (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
lunasun
(21,646 posts)wishstar
(5,271 posts)Flake then made blanket statement that he does not think Trump has done anything impeachable.
Not consistent to criticize Trump's false statements and then make a premature claim giving Trump benefit of the doubt regarding any impeachable offense, especially after all of Trump & Co. lying and covering up all their Russian contacts and the evidence of attempted obstruction of justice.
Stinky The Clown
(67,818 posts)bigtree
(86,005 posts)...stamp your feet on DU and turn your back?
Isn't there any value in this career conservative speaking truth to power?
I think you'll be behind the curve dismissing Flake, and, essentially, playing into the hands of others who have an even more direct interest in dismissing what he's said against Trump.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)But talk is notoriously cheap. What concrete actions is Sen. Flake going to take to oppose President Trump? Who on the Republican side of the aisle is going to join a retiring senator, less than a year away from leaving the chamber?
We'll be better able to assess the value of Flake's speech by its sequelae. Sen. Graham had harsh things to say about President Trump once upon a time, too.
bigtree
(86,005 posts)...and I don't expect the republican party to do anything substantial to fix anything.
That's has little to do with the importance or impact of this speech or any other republican speaking this kind of truth to his own president and party.
It's up to US to make something of this. I'd hope we do more than the dirty work of republicans who will be more than satisfied with any cynicism directed at Flake, or with folks who are content dismissing his words.
I daresay, that will likely be the strategy from the right. They're cynical, we're cynical. We feel righteous, and republicans dodge this bullet.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)I disagree. We're miles ahead of where Flake is. He's like a little boy waving his hand as the freight train zooms by.
If Flake's words are going to mean anything, they have to mean something to his Republican colleagues and fellow travelers. If all the other Republicans in Congress hold together, Flake's Fine Speech amounts to bupkis.
bigtree
(86,005 posts)...and this political speech will have an impact.
His message is directed at whoever is willing to receive it and act on it. I don't think anything worthwhile is served by making this excellent screed against Trump a referendum on Flake.
We should be embracing the moment, but I can see that cynicism is a powerful lure.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)But if this is a nine hours' wonder and nothing happens afterwards (something we've seen countless times before), then it's another useless gesture by a cynical Republican trying to salvage something of his reputation moments before he heads out the door. Past performance is no guarantee of future returns, as they say in the investment world, but we've seen this from elected officials before. Flake doesn't have a base of credibility for anything for liberals to embrace at this moment.
bigtree
(86,005 posts)...and I don't see any value at all (or logic) in predicating support for his speech on the Senate floor on anything.
He told the truth about Trump, and I endorse that truth. Period.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)I don't feel a similar obligation to make anything more of Flake's Fine Speech as a standalone proposition.
bigtree
(86,005 posts)...by that standard of yours, there's no value in ANY republican speaking out against Trump.
I think that's an absurd stance, and antithetical to efforts to confront this president.
Saviolo
(3,283 posts)... if they then go around and vote overwhelming in support of him. It may turn a couple of heads of moderate republican voters who will take a good hard look at Trump, but the actual actions of Flake in the chamber have done tangible harm. He voted for all of the different flavors of repeal for the ACA, he voted for the tax scam, he voted to confirm Neil Gorsuch along with pretty much all of Trump's nominees. And then when he opposes Trump it's for things like opposing disaster relief for Puerto Rico.
You can see his voting record here:
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/jeff-flake/
So, great, if his speech manages to convince a few moderate Republican voters to stay home instead of voting for Trump, that's great. Until I see some evidence that he gives an actual shit about anything (via his voting record), I'll treat all of these speeches of his as angry exit interviews as he's walking out the door.
bigtree
(86,005 posts)...discussions I've listened to in the period following Flake's speech; discussions where Flake's politics wasn't the subject, but Trump was; those discussions have no value?
If you make his remarks a referendum on Flake's republicanism, it's easy and convenient to ignore what he actually said.
Dems: "Why are republicans silent about Trump's attacks on the press; on our Democratic institutions; silent about attacks on investigations into Russian interference into our election?"
Republican Senator: "The president uses words spoken by Josef Stalin."
Dems: "What about your voting record?"
Focus.
Saviolo
(3,283 posts)And I don't think the value of his words outstrips the damage of his actions. If you suspect that Flake's words on his way out the door will measurable move the needle in terms of votes for or against Trump, I think you're being naively optimistic. If Trump leaves in disgrace, then he'll be "the only GOP senator that stood up to Trump" in his presidential campaign. If Trump gets a second term, he doesn't care, he's on the way out anyway.
So he can say what everyone can see, that the president is using authoritarian speech in an effort to suppress the press, but he can't vote against the repeal of Net Neutrality, a vastly popular position across voters on both sides of the aisle?
bigtree
(86,005 posts)...there isn't ONE republican whose words would 'outstrip the damage' if they confronted Trump.
We want republicans to act, but there's value in their speaking out. They're not going to automatically become Democrats by doing so, but neither did republicans who eventually voted to impeach Nixon. Besides, it's his republicanism which makes these remarks significant and give them impact.
You should realize that it's primarily on DU and other internet discussion groups where you find folks more focused on Flake than on what he said on the Senate floor about Trump. I think that's a wasted opportunity which really only serves those who want to suppress what Flake said about the president.
Saviolo
(3,283 posts)He loves what Trump's doing. He loves the right-wing policies and the far-right judges and the tax cut for the wealthy and corporate donations and Citizens United and all that lovely money from the Kochs and the Mercers. He loves all of it.
He just wishes Trump wouldn't be quite so overtly racist and go back to using dog whistles instead. That's what it boils down to. As long as we let him get some free great PR by pointing out that Trump is being authoritarian and fascist in his words (which is already obvious to anyone not brainwashed into the cult), we're going to keep getting a lot of far-right policies. He's not speaking out against Trump, he's speaking out against Trump's methods. If an identical policy agenda had been passed under President Pence, but he hadn't attacked the press, the conversation would have never happened.
I'm not comfortable giving Flake a pat on the back for pointing out the obvious when his policy agenda is odious and damaging. We can't let his very reasonable (but hardly revelatory) words cover the violence in his voting record.
bigtree
(86,005 posts)...ALL of the reports I saw yesterday about Flake's speech on the Senate floor criticizing Trump were presented as a member of his own party attacking him mercilessly.
NONE of them distracted from those attacks on Trump, as some DUers have, to criticize Flake or express ANY cynicism at all about his attacks on the president.
I think you the politics you're focusing on are fine for DU, but it's a bit behind the curve. Most folks are more concerned with confronting Trump than on casting doubt on his critics and accusers.
mopinko
(70,215 posts)works for me.
misanthrope
(7,428 posts)One was no less transparent than the other.
Stinky The Clown
(67,818 posts)I stand by my comment.
Booker spoke in a way that could well be what you say, but it was consistent with who Booker is.
Flake? Not Even Close.
misanthrope
(7,428 posts)I see little difference between the two instances other than their party affiliations. Both were a pair of Beltway veterans taking advantage of the situation for a little p.r. aimed at their personal ambitions. If one is dismissed solely due to the politico's career goals, then the same would apply for the other.
Booker's yen for a presidential race has been talked about for years now. It was obvious he came to the hearing this week prepared to deliver those remarks because he knew it would make the news and would provide useful soundbites. You can see him reading his prepared statements.
Nothing unusual there. That's how Washington works.
The most meaningful difference I see between the two is Flake's membership in the GOP. If him standing up to his party's POTUS can help chip away at the base of support Trump enjoys, if it can embolden others to follow his lead then that is a good thing.
After all, it took a delegation of Republicans heading up Pennsylvania Avenue to get Nixon to exit office. An opposition party isn't going to have the same sway. Trump's bulwarks have to crumble.
I don't like GOP policies. They run counter to my progressive ideals. I vote for Democrats not out of party loyalty but primarily because they espouse plans closer to what I would like to see enacted.
Policies aside, Trump is damaging our nation, its institutions and its discourse in ways that should alarm everyone on both sides of the aisle. I want that solved most of all.
Stinky The Clown
(67,818 posts)You're good at this.
misanthrope
(7,428 posts)some of us are worried about things that transcend tribalism.
Stinky The Clown
(67,818 posts)MissKat
(218 posts)Is he going to be the alternative Republican??
Me thinks he wants to be president....what say you? DU?
bunny planet
(10,875 posts)maybe he can put his money where his mouth is and actually cross the aisle to vote to save net neutrality instead of just making fiery speeches and still voting for every dastardly part of the GOP/trump agenda. We have 50 votes to restore net neutrality (if Collins is actually telling the truth about voting with us that is). We need one more GOP vote desperately. So, Flake, what's it gonna be, are you all talk and no action......
enid602
(8,652 posts)Funny that the few Repubicans speaking up against tRump (e.g., Romney, Mcmullin and Flake) are Mormons. Where are the mainstream evangelicals?
AJT
(5,240 posts)but he is objecting to 45s lies and destruction of our democratic norms. Flake believes in the horrible GOP agenda, but he also believes that the agenda should pass by honest democratic means. He believes in an honest democracy, which all of our elected officials should.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)I strongly disagree with Flake's completely overt political agenda. On many many issues he is aligned with policy positions compatible with Trump's legislative and executive initiatives. That is both true and important. Flake is no ally when it comes to his ideological priorities.
Flake's speech was not about that. I can oppose Flake strongly on policies and applaud him vigorously on fundamental patriotism. He agrees with most of the Republican legislative agenda, and so I could never support Flake for political office. But I can still applaud him for his passionate defense of core democratic principles and, yes, his courage in defending them loudly against a would be despotic President who is undermining them daily. He has stated truths that no one else sitting in high elected position in the Republican Party has dared to utter.
It is not confusing to me. Flakes's voting record reflects his political priorities. His open opposition to the overt authoritarian posture taken by the man occupying the Oval Office reflects his loyalty to some of the core pillars of our democracy. Full credit where credit is due.
FirstLight
(13,364 posts)I don't expect him to change his Republican ways...BUT this is about Patriotism.
...and wasn't it about Patriotism when Repubs finally turned on Nixon? Hopefully this is the crack in the dam that opens the floodgates... (here's hopin')
MuseRider
(34,119 posts)It is just so easy to knee jerk your way through everything. Thinking has become passe I fear.
AlexSFCA
(6,139 posts)this is purely a PR move for outgoing senator
dhol82
(9,353 posts)Words to live by.
matt819
(10,749 posts)As the article in Slate observes, it's all meaningless unless he starts voting accordingly. So pardon me if I'm not particularly moved by this.
DFW
(54,436 posts)Although I can't imagine Stalin having read Ibsen, Ibsen's play "En Folkefiende (An Enemy of the People)" was written in 1882. Stalin had no business using the phrase to describe anyone other than himself, anyway, but Ibsen used it and his play as a response to the phony outrage to his previous play, "Ghosts," which had to do with passing down of family shame, something Norwegian society didn't feel was "appropriate" matter for public discussion at the time. Ibsen's work had nothing to do with Gulags, collectivizing agriculture, or making Ukranians bend to a dictator's will. Actually, Ibsen's original intent--to show up hypocrisy in TPTB who use the phrase--applies much more closely to Trump than to Stalin.
Maybe Flake has read Ibsen? If not, he might not like what he reads, as he will find himself on both sides of Ibsen's disputing parties.
davekriss
(4,627 posts)You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.
- Malcolm X
The reverse of this is true, too. Right is right, no matter who does it or says it. Hats off for Jeff Flake and this great speech.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,895 posts)then I'd be impressed. If he said that the Trump and Republican agenda is wrong and so long as he's still in office he'll work against it, then I'd have a glimmer of hope.
But nope. All he's saying is that the President says bad things. Big whoop.
Jeff Flake is still no friend of average citizens, let alone Democrats.
Persondem
(1,936 posts)dalton99a
(81,570 posts)Words are cheap
bigtree
(86,005 posts)...who aren't going to become Democrats, even if they do come to confront Trump in some significant way.
apnu
(8,758 posts)He's not running for re-election, suddenly he's got brave words. He made some noises before his retirement announcement, but nothing like this.
Gothmog
(145,554 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)That's more than most other Republicans, who are like dogs at the feet of Trump, grateful for the huge tax cut, or who are frozen with fear of Trump, who has managed to ruin the careers and lives of "disloyal" Republicans...even the powerful Bannon.
diva77
(7,656 posts)another rethug hypocrite of the McCain type -- they occasionally say the right thing, but never vote in the same spirit
bigtree
(86,005 posts)...watch for what impact his speech on the Senate floor will have on the national discussion of Trump's abuses of our democracy.
I just watched a discussion of a free press which didn't bother to highlight Flake's politics, at all. Instead, the discussion centered around his criticisms of Trump's attack on the press, and the impact of Trump's words and actions around the globe.
MFM008
(19,818 posts)TAX CUTS.
Quit voting with the maggot!
Perseus
(4,341 posts)His first speech was good as well, then he turned around and voted with the rest of republicans.
You say "It's not about this conservative Senator's voting record"...sure it is, you have to back your words or they become useless, they become a lie.
I confess I have not read the speech yet, I will, but Flake is like what the man-child called him, "flaky"
aquamarina
(1,865 posts)It could also apply to many of his fellow Senators and and whole slew of Representatives as well.
GregGilman
(12 posts)I find it fascinating Flake lays all blame for mis-information in Trump's lap when the real problem lies in decades of dishonest propaganda by Fox News/Limbaugh/Breitbart/Infowars and the rest of the conservative entertainment network. Trump didn't start rightwing lying. And Trump can't stop rightwing lying. It's baked into today's GOP.
LonePirate
(13,431 posts)LenaBaby61
(6,977 posts)FirstLight
(13,364 posts)I don't have TV so I'm not watching...
WHERE did this speech take place? On the Senate/House Floor or some other venue?
Just curious, as I think it might make a difference....
dchill
(38,532 posts)He's out of the club!
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)How, then, can he remain a Republican? Thats something I cant understand.
Perseus
(4,341 posts)told MSNBC that he still wouldnt vote to impeach the president.
Any more proof his speech is useless?
Someone with a real conscience doesn't say that, someone who is true to words on that speech will consider the fact and not simply say "I won't do it just 'because'"? Because he is a flake, he is a hypocrite, and he is just trying to make political points, with whom I don't know.
Talk about premature how could he know whether or not he would vote to impeach when a case hasnt been made yet? Lichtman said.
Read the article, and I hope the History professor is correct:
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/01/history-professor-predicts-mueller-will-reveal-trump-crimes-that-will-shock-the-nation-and-force-gop-to-impeach/
bigtree
(86,005 posts)Perseus
(4,341 posts)when the reasons for impeachment, when the facts by Muller have not been presented, to say that you will not vote to impeach?
Wait a second, if there is proof and reason to merit an impeachment he is saying that he would dismiss all those? that he just won't impeach? Then why throw two speeches against the guy if all your actions are going to support whatever he does, whatever he says...you are still going to support the guy? What is in his personal agenda?
His words, IMO, mean nothing, those are empty words.
bigtree
(86,005 posts)...expecting republicans to stop being republicans before we accept them confronting Trump is unrealistic and counterproductive to any effort to hold him accountable.
Do you think republicans voting to impeach Nixon renounced their republicanism beforehand?
No one in the Senate is prejudging the investigation. When evidence emerges from Mueller, the entire Congress will respond.
Perseus
(4,341 posts)"And a Congress that fails to act as a check on the president adds to the danger."
And he doesn't want to Impeach??? What a contradiction...
When Flake says he won't impeach, does the following paragraph hold any weight?
"And Mr. President, an American president who cannot take criticism -- who must constantly deflect and distort and distract -- who must find someone else to blame -- is charting a very dangerous path. "
Where is the danger? Flake and others won't dare to impeach, so why should the man-child be afraid of his party, which happens to hold the majority in both houses?
dobleremolque
(492 posts)(Modified here to fit USA...)
"I'm not arguing there are no decent people in the Tory [Republican] Party, but they're like bits of sweetcorn in a turd: technically they've kept their integrity, but they're still embedded in shit."
KY_EnviroGuy
(14,494 posts)Tories are indeed just as devious and mean as our Repugs.
He is still a Republican. And they have those precious TAX CUTS.
BobTheSubgenius
(11,564 posts)However, in terms of his own legacy, he's gained an asterisk, and that's about it. If he has any concern about that, as well as any concern for the country, I kinda wish he would run again.
If beaten by a Dem, all well and good...to say the least.
If the less-desirable outcome of Flake retaining his seat is the outcome, at least he might have a greater and greater number redeeming moments like this in the future.
If nothing else, Flake running would at least make the GOP primary process a total gong show.
Golden Raisin
(4,613 posts)Sad that a Republican is speaking out with such vehemence rather than Pelosi or Schumer.
INdemo
(6,994 posts)RainCaster
(10,914 posts)He is just as big a phony as any other Republican.
Tatiana
(14,167 posts)At the end of the day, like Collins, he falls in line when it really matters.
His talk is very cheap. I'll be glad when he is gone and the seat is held by a Democrat.
raven mad
(4,940 posts)Thanks.
PubliusEnigma
(1,583 posts)burrowowl
(17,647 posts)and give lie to his words.
mrsadm
(1,198 posts)Thank you for posting this ... I had no idea that anyone in Congress could even say this ...
mnmoderatedem
(3,729 posts)Flake knows he's not seeking reelection, so he's safe in making this type of speech.
I want to see a republican who IS seeking reelection grow something resembling a backbone and do something similar.
babylonsister
(171,091 posts)but heard Flake on Morning Joe taking impeachment off the table prior to giving the speech.
So, what kind of commitment to his words does that suggest? Meh.
bigtree
(86,005 posts)...because Mueller hasn't come forward with his findings.
Besides, how many Democrats are committed right now to impeachment? I'm not getting this as a standard for republicans speaking out against Trump. If we hone to the notion that there's no value in their speaking out because of their republicanism, there isn't one of them that will pass the test.
Flake's the hammer on all of the news shows I saw reporting this, and Trump is the nail. Not ONE distracted from the criticisms Flake leveled about Trump's attacks on the press to focus on his own record. That's how it should be, Flake, however compromised or hypocritical, is not the clear and present danger that Trump represents. Nor is he some sort of flash point that we should be spending our time ripping apart.
He's retiring, and it's really only going to serve those who want to distract from his criticisms of Trump, those who want to muddle and divide the opposition, to make Flake's republicanism the issue instead of his speaking truth to power.
catbyte
(34,450 posts)ConnorMarc
(653 posts)His words are hollow.
I don't care what they say, I care what they do.
And Flake's deeds are terrible.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)Republicans are famous for turning human once they are truly lame ducks or decide to retire.
Absent those things, they are line-up toadies..
Had Flake & McCain voiced their recent thoughts just before they voted NO on that tax scheme, I might have had a small bit of respect for them..
too little...too late
KG
(28,752 posts)#sorrynotsorry
Nanjeanne
(4,975 posts)U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of North Carolina. Farr helped draft NCs extreme voter suppression law, one of the most restrictive in history. Civil rights leaders have been protesting loudly against this appointment.
Screw Flake. We need to pay attention to what politicians advocate for by what they vote for and not by words that mean little in peoples real world. If Flake votes for Trumps unqualified judges, his words against Trump mean nothing to me.