A question about the legality of personal space

[Downtown Hound]

Hi all,

I had a rather unpleasant experience yesterday with someone who clearly wasn't quite right in the head, and it left me wondering about the legality of defending one's personal space.

Basically it was my day off, and I was happily sitting under one of the trees of our local junior college studying one of my computer books for a test I'm taking. I'm pretty close to the sidewalk, and there are a lot of homeless people and transients in this neighborhood.

So essentially, out of nowhere, the one guy, fairly young, about 5'10" inches tall, thin build, diverts from the sidewalk he's walking on and makes a beeline right towards me. I thought he was going to hit me up for change, a common occurrence in this neighborhood. But instead, he puts his hand on the tree that I'm leaning up against, stands literally inches away from me, and hovers over me and looks down at me.

"What's up?" is all he says. I'm not exggerating when I say he is literally inches away from me. His foot was practically touching mine, and he is actually bending hovering over me while he says this.

I'll admit I wasn't exactly terribly friendly in the manner in which I made my reply, but everything about his demeanor was threatening.

Me: "What's up? What do you want?" I said this somewhat forcefully.

Him: "I'm talking to my tree." He then closes his eyes and acts like he's receiving messages from the tree through his hand. Oh goody, I'm thinking.

First of all let me just explain that this is a huge tree, way to big in circumference to put your arms around. He could have just as easily gone to the other side of the tree to do what he's doing, and while I might think he's more than a little weird, it wouldn't have bothered me enough to speak out. But instead he gets right up in my grill to the point where I feel threatened. He's hovering over me and looking right down at me.

Me: "Yeah, you know. I'm kind of relaxing here. Could you maybe go someplace else and do that?"

Him (now really angry): "You don't own this tree! I have every right to be here!"

Me: "I know I don't own it. But you came right up here and got in my space. You can just as easily go to the other side of the tree and talk to it if that's your thing."

Him (now yelling): "I can go wherever I want. I'm talking to my tree! You don't have any right to tell me to leave!"

Me (starting to get pissed): "WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?"

Him: "I don't have a problem! I'm talking to my tree!"

Me: "Fine. Talk to your tree then, man." I was obviously annoyed and did not attempt to hide the annoyance in my voice, but I was actually willing to let it go at that point and just wait for him to do his thing and leave. I went back to reading my book, keeping a close watch on him through the corner of my eye. But he wouldn't let it go.

Him: "What is YOUR problem, man?"

Me: "I don't have a problem. I didn't come up to you and totally invade your space, now did I?"

Him: "You don't own this space! I have every right to be here! You can't tell me to leave! I'm TALKING TO MY TREE!"

He's literally screaming at this point, and I'd had enough. I was totally enjoying peacefully studying under the tree until this psycho came up and ruined it. I was one step away from standing up and telling him he better back the fuck off if wants to go home with all of his teeth intact. For further information, I am 6 feet four inches tall and a former boxer with a fairly muscular build. He was much smaller than me and I doubt he was as well trained.

Me: "Yeah, what the fuck ever dude. You're a weirdo. Leave me alone!"

Him: "DAMN IT!" He then hits "his tree" and storms off. I honestly think if I hadn't been much bigger than him, we would have fought. But he took a look at me and knew he had no chance, so he retreated.

I kept an eye out for awhile, more than a little bit nervous that he might return, perhaps with a weapon, but he didn't. My question is, exactly what right do you have in a situation like this to assert your right to be secure in your space? He's right, I didn't own the tree or the space. But I think there are very few people on this Earth that would be okay with somebody just rolling up on them out of the blue and getting inches away from them and talking to a tree when they could just as easily have done so in a way that did not completely violate their space. If we had come to blows, what type of defense could I have used in court?

There are a lot of homeless people in this community, and while most of them are harmless, there is a certain percentage of them that are mentally unstable and can be dangerous. I don't know for certain if this individual was homeless, he was well dressed and clean cut, and seemed rather well groomed. But I do think he was mentally unstable, and I certainly did not feel safe with him hovering over me like that.

Anyways, any advice would be appreciated.

[ksoze]

1. Need my three minutes reading this back

[snooper2]

2. It took you THREE MINUTES to read that!

LOL

[Downtown Hound]

3. Whatever. Next!

[womanofthehills]

224. OMG! Your story sounds like Edward Albee's play "The Zoo Story"

Where psycho Jerry comes up to Peter and demands he get off HIS bench and Peter hangs around.


How do you expect a mentally ill person to behave?? Surprise - they act MENTALLY ILL. You are expecting a mentally ill guy to act rationally.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

4. I would never have engaged. I would have gotten up and left immediately.

[elleng]

146. Yes.

[3catwoman3]

186. Me, too.

I would have left immediately. I am about as non-confrontational a person as one might hope to find.

[womanofthehills]

225. The majority of people would leave - why confront a mentally ill person

[XRubicon]

303. Same here, leave the area and report him to campus security

[Duppers]

317. Yes again. Never engage them.

[snooper2]

5. I would have advised him I had just recently wiped a bunch of snot on the tree where his hand is

Then go from there

[Downtown Hound]

6. He might have liked it.

[NCTraveler]

36. Is what happened as described that far off? Nt

[Downtown Hound]

71. Yes, it is. n/t

[Codeine]

7. Whackadoodles are gonna wackadoodle, dude.

I just walk away. Best not to engage with crazy.

[Iris]

227. This is going to become a mantra for me! N/t

[hlthe2b]

8. I follow instincts... something doesn't seem right I don't engage, but catch my watch and

make the requisite "I'm late" excuse and leave. That is ESPECIALLY true if an individual gets uncomfortably close.

I have let people that I'm uncomfortable with pat my dog if they are intent on doing so (my current doggy girl seems oblivious to any "bad" people), but if they say or do so in a less than appropriate manner, I'm out of there.

I don't ignore homeless people or those who I think might have issues, but I am careful as to those with whom I really engage. I've always found a nod, smile and determined walk away usually works. I also don't carry money with me so I can honestly tell them I don't have anything to give.

That said, my conscience would never let me NOT help someone in an emergent situation and especially to get a warm shelter in storms or cold snaps. That was more an issue when I lived in Central Denver than where i am now.

[NCTraveler]

9. Please take this the way it is intended.

I'm not attacking.

Change your mind-set if this is how it truly went down. Mental illness, drugs, malnutrition.... They are real and Americans are suffering. Anger is often associated with it.

Without knowing the individuals story, have some compassion. Hold your punitive thoughts back and think bigger picture. I'm not saying you lack compassion. I'm saying your first response, as is with the majority in a situation like this, was geared toward being more punitive. There really is a good chance that this guys mind, without help, is pure hell for him.

I'm truly sorry you had to go through this. If something isn't done there is a chance this guy will hurt someone or be hurt more. Police are more often than not a negative force for the individual in these situations. You still have to protect yourself accordingly.

[Downtown Hound]

10. No, my first instinct is to defend myself and protect my safety

And when somebody comes up out of nowhere and acts threateningly, I will let them know it is not okay with me. I'm all for helping the mentally ill. But I'm even more for making sure I go home unharmed every day.

[NCTraveler]

11. "But I'm even more for making sure I go home unharmed every day."

Continuing a conversation with someone who wants to talk to a tree is a bad way to go about that. The whole "defend" myself is more often than not simply an outlet for male aggression.

You could not have been defending yourself by conversing in any way. Simply not possible. Defense of body is not what happened here in any way.

Sorry you see it another way.

[Downtown Hound]

13. LOL.

No, I was sitting there peacefully studying. How you interpret that as male aggression I don't know. But my choices at that point are either leave and potentially turn my back on somebody who is dangerous or do nothing and allow myself to be harassed? Telling somebody when they are acting aggressively towards you to stop is not being aggressive, and suggesting that it is is just another form of victim blaming. I had every right to be there and to be allowed to do what I was doing without being harassed. So I'm sorry, but I do resent your insinuation that I am not allowed to stand up for myself or my personal space, and that if I do, I'm being the aggressive one. Would you say the same thing to a woman that told a stalker off? I doubt it. You'd probably be praising her courage. But because I'm a man, and a fairly large one at that, I don't have a right to tell someone that they are bothering me and I want them to stop? Because if I do, I'm just indulging in male aggression?

Bullshit.

[NCTraveler]

25. "How you interpret that as male aggression I don't know."

You continued an argument with someone wanting to talk to a tree. That's how.

Sorry you didn't take this as intended. Continuing hostile conversations with someone wanting to talk to a tree is not in your best interest.

[Downtown Hound]

27. As I already mentioned

At one point I was actually willing to drop it and let it go. It was him that started it up again. And no, I'm not just going to sit there and pretend that this person isn't over there yelling at me to suit your ideals of how I'm supposed to allow myself to be harassed when I'm minding my own business.

[NCTraveler]

30. "It was him that started it up again."

Of course, he wanted to talk to his tree.

" And no, I'm not just going to sit there and pretend that this person isn't over there yelling at me to suit your ideals of how I'm supposed to allow myself to be harassed when I'm minding my own business."

Sounds like a big success. Great job with the guy wanting to talk to his tree.

[Downtown Hound]

54. You mean the guy that could have easily talked to his tree

in countless other ways other than hovering over me and getting in my face while I'm peacefully reading a book? LOL. Way to make him out to be the victim here.

[treestar]

86. If he is that crazy, then he might think he has to talk to his tree

on that side - maybe that is his tree's good ear.

[Downtown Hound]

90. So let me see if I get this straight

I'm supposed to just let this guy come out of nowhere and behave in a threatening manner towards me because I should have the good insight to think that the tree he wants to talk to can only be heard from the exact spot I happen to be sitting? Man, if only I could stretch like this when I go running.

At this point, you're starting to sound more absurd than he did.

[hunter]

109. Yes, you are. You are the sane person.

I replied below.

[Downtown Hound]

112. Bullshit. n/t

[treestar]

115. Bullshit you are the sane person?

[treestar]

116. It's not my opinion, but a possible opinion of his

He sound off his rocker and able to use the insanity defense.

[Downtown Hound]

123. Even if he was, that doesn't make me guilty of anything

Just makes him avoid the same punishment that you or I would get.

[DemSoc]

278. LOL! nt

[kcr]

154. Right, the way rational people who want to talk to their trees do it. Of course!

Come on.

[Downtown Hound]

158. You weren't there.

The guy might have been unstable, but he wasb' t so crazy as to not know what he was doing. Why do you think he went right for me and addressed me before he did anything to the tree? He was cogent enough to understand what he was doing.

[kcr]

160. What does the fact I wasn't there have to do with it?

Is this some little-known land where people regularly talk to their trees so this wouldn't seem strange to locals such as yourself?

[Downtown Hound]

161. It has a lot to do with it.

You couldn't read the guys energy or his demeanor. He wasn't just innocently talking to a tree. He was looking to start something.

[kcr]

163. Well, maybe you should keep your story straight, because right there in the beginning of your story,

You say this: "I had a rather unpleasant experience yesterday with someone who clearly wasn't quite right in the head" It seems obvious that it was clear to you in the beginning that something wasn't right with him. Did you forget you mentioned that?

[Downtown Hound]

164. I came to that conclusion after the fact

Not when he initially approached me. I thought I made it perfectly clear that he was behaving aggressively, given that I have now mentioned so over a dozen times.

[kcr]

167. You came to that conclusion after the fact. But you mention it first thing.

Which of course one would do when writing about a person who just wanted to talk to their tree. But sure. You didn't realize he wasn't right in the head till after the fact. And after everyone rightfully pointed out you should have just walked away.

[Downtown Hound]

172. I mention it first thing because I have had the benefit of 24

Hours of hindsight. It's quite simple actually and you're making my words out to be something they're not.

[spooky3]

207. As Judge Judy tells people in road rage etc. situations

things like: "if you thought that driver was a nut, why did you stop? If you were really concerned about your safety, you should have gotten away from him."

This is a discussion board. You asked people for their opinions. You've gotten some great inputs from DUers who are trying to reason with you. Did you really think that you would get a groundswell of support for taking a risky position for no real gain?

Why don't you try imagining for a second that you weren't tall and strong? If you were the average-sized woman, do you think you would have continued to sit there and discuss whose right it was to sit there? What if the guy were substantially larger than you?

Life unfortunately is not fair. Sometimes you have to give in, or walk away, or compromise, or give up something, when maybe you shouldn't have had to, because that is the smarter thing to do. You were in a public park, not your private property. You know it was wiser, even if annoying, to just go find another place to be--as many women have to do to avoid confrontations that they did not ask for and shouldn't have to deal with.

You're lucky you weren't hurt.

[Downtown Hound]

212. Sorry, but I've always found Judge Judy

To be an annoying twit.

[pnwmom]

125. How would he know that this guy wasn't just jerking his chain?

He finally concluded that the man was mentally disturbed, but he couldn't know that at the outset.

[womanofthehills]

232. Maybe, because the guys first 2 sentences were: "What's Up" & "I'm talking to my tree"

That would be a BIG RED FLAG to me.

[pnwmom]

280. If a man says "what's up"? It's a sign he's unhinged?

And "I'm talking to my tree" could be a sign that the man is an asshole who thinks he's funny.

[NCTraveler]

242. He wanted to talk to his tree...

And was a stranger. Jerking chains or not that should be a clue.

[womanofthehills]

229. Wow! Ever hear of not taking something personally

You seem to think you can have a normal conversation with a crazy person. Crazy people might now even be aware of personal space - hello, it's called psychosis!

[Downtown Hound]

282. I wasn't trying to have a normal conversation with him

I wasn't trying to talk to him at all. I was trying to read my book and wanted to be left in peace.

[pnwmom]

87. If it had been me, and a guy said that to me, I wouldn't have known he was mentally ill.

He could have just been acting aggressively -- trying to get a reaction from me. Or maybe that could be some guy's idea of being funny. In either case, I would have just left . . . but I would have been upset that I had to do so, and as upset as the OP about having had someone invade my "space."

[womanofthehills]

233. So you would be upset that you as a women could not sit under a tree in an area frequented

by transients and the homeless. Not the place I would want to read a book.

[pnwmom]

237. As a parent and a former student, I would be upset that a community college student

couldn't sit under a tree reading a book on her OWN campus without being harassed. That's pretty sad.

[Downtown Hound]

274. Thank you once again.

[Downtown Hound]

273. It's the front yard of a very popular, nationally ranked junior college and people do it

all the time. And I live very close to there. If you want to hide in your house and never go out that's your business. But I refuse to be a prisoner in my own neighborhood.

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7212080-181/santa-rosa-junior-college-named

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Rosa_Junior_College

[Downtown Hound]

283. Oh and this is what it actually looks like

The tree in question is not the one pictured here, it's more off to the left and I couldn't find a picture of it. But it is very similar. Students hang out there all the time. But thanks once again for making it my fault because I actually believe I have a right to be somewhere other than hiding in my home living in fear.

[pnwmom]

300. Thanks for posting this picture. Unfortunately, the people who need to see it

probably won't.

[NCTraveler]

244. I would have just left

[NCTraveler]

253. Exactly.

Starting to sink in, I see. Escalating a confrontation with someone wanting to talk to a tree can be accurately described as just that.

[Downtown Hound]

255. Complete misrepresentation of what happened also noted. n/t

[NCTraveler]

257. I am using this as a guide.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210086913

It’s spelled out clearly.

The trend is clear in your replies. Serious unwarranted aggression. Even going as far as to call me a coward.

Happy Friday.

[Downtown Hound]

261. Not unwarranted aggression

A valid response to an unwelcome intrusion.

[pnwmom]

84. How could the OP know the person was mentally ill from the outset?

This is the kind of thing that happens to women FREQUENTLY -- by men who are and are not mentally disturbed. What are we supposed to do? Have compassion?

The kind of feelings the OP described are what women go through every time some strange and unwelcome man comes in and invades their personal space.

[Voltaire2]

135. "talking to trees".

That would be a general clue that this was either a truly unhinged person or a person pretending to be truly unhinged. Either way.

[pnwmom]

136. Sane men crack "jokes" and make stupid remarks to women every day.

If a man said that to me, in that situation, I wouldn't know whether he was crazy or just being an asshole who thought he was funny.

[Voltaire2]

139. the op described a person who he believed to be "unhinged" or something like that

so sure if the situation were a different situation you might have a point.

But as I posted earlier, when an encounter with a random stranger (or indeed with anyone) escalates into a confrontation, your best move, no matter how big or small you or the other person is, is to remove yourself from the vicinity of that person. The potential for injury in conflict escalation, particularly in this country where 300 million+ guns are on the loose, is enormous.

[Downtown Hound]

144. Maybe it's safer

But that doesn't mean that one is required to do it. Sometimes you just gotta stand up and assert your rights. You can't go through life always letting people push you around, even if it is the safer route.

[Voltaire2]

145. Sure go for it.

Draw that line in the sand.

[Downtown Hound]

149. I did.

[pnwmom]

147. That was a CONCLUSION he made after several minutes of interaction. He couldn't have known

that at the onset.

It is unfortunate, I think, that so many people here are engaging in blaming-the-victim; instead of validating the OP's uncomfortable, even helpless feelings -- despite his size. But the same thing often happens to women. The default position seems to be to blame the victim -- whether male or female -- whenever men act aggressively.

And what happens when you move away and the person follows you? How do you know that if the OP moved to another tree, the crazy person wouldn't have said that tree belonged to him, too? And the grass under their feet?

Being followed after moving away has happened to me more than once. The solution to aggressive men isn't as simple as you think.

[Voltaire2]

203. you win. Beat up crazy people. Best to do it pro-actively.

[Downtown Hound]

205. Nah, you win.

Next time and from his day forth, I will never stand up for myself or my right to be free and secure in my space from unwanted intrusion again. I will ALWAYS cower and leave when harassed or intimidated. I will never do anything that could be considered aggressive, even when I'm just minding my own business and somebody decides to just get all up in my grill when they could just as easily do their thing just a few feet away. Nope. You've shown me the way, and the way is to cower and ALWAYS give and surrender what's yours because to do anything else is just dick waving macho bullshit.

Thanks for setting me straight.

[pnwmom]

206. You win. Don't listen. Twist what people say and put words into their mouths.

Great way to prove your point.

[NCTraveler]

243. He wanted to talk to his tree.

First clue.

[moonscape]

301. When someone is crazy, I don't engage at all. When he said

"I'm talking to my tree" I would have said, "Ah, enjoy" and got up and left.

[NCTraveler]

302. Thats kind of the beginning and end with me.

“I’m talking to my tree.”

I’m walking away immediately.

[CrispyQ]

12. Betting your a man, cuz invasion of space happens to women all the time.

And we frequently don't have the advantage of size to intimidate our tormentors. My advice: Avoid being confrontational with people you don't know. Learn to walk away. Not every fight is worth it.

[Downtown Hound]

16. And it's not okay when it happens to women either

But assume for a minute you did have the advantage of size to intimidate your harassers, would you just walk away every time? Or would you stand up to them and let them know it's not okay? You shouldn't have to live in fear.

[CrispyQ]

23. Asserting your rights no matter what is a macho thing.

But, hey, have at it.

[Downtown Hound]

24. Okay. Next time I hear of someone being harassed on the street

I'll just tell them they have no right to assert their right to be left alone in peace because to do so is just macho bullshit, and the only thing they're allowed to do is either leave or do nothing and take it. Thanks. I got it.

[CrispyQ]

26. You're being confrontational now.

See ya!

[Downtown Hound]

29. Bye!

[pnwmom]

94. Right. We shouldn't have to live in fear. I was sitting in the grass in a park once,

reading a book under a tree. A guy came by and sat a couple feet away and started trying to engage me in conversation. My antennae went up -- he was wearing a full-sized backpack. He was asking personal questions, and I was answering as shortly as possible. Finally he asked where I lived. I said, "over there," -- and gestured to the block behind us -- where more than a thousand students lived in three six- or eight-story apartment buildings. Finally he got the message and left.

Thinking about it, one reason I stayed there is because other people were in the vicinity. If I'd have left, how did I know he wouldn't just follow me? I was as safe remaining in place as anywhere else.

Another time, a few years later, I was in downtown Seattle, standing just outside the doorway of a store, waiting for my husband to come with our car. A couple guys walked up to me and one of them got right in my face and started saying something to me in a language I didn't understand. Without thinking, I looked right at him and said: "Just. Go. Away." And he did.

Thinking back on that, if it were my daughter? I'd tell her to go the hell back inside the store!

[Downtown Hound]

101. Well, lucky you didn't post about that on DU

Because everybody would have told you that he had a right to be there and how you dare you behave that way towards him and you're just engaging in macho bullshit and you're probably going to get in trouble with the cops one day for being so aggressive.

[pnwmom]

106. Yeah, some of these responses have been disappointing. n/t

[Ms. Toad]

176. Actually - some of us life with this every day of our lives.

Who have learned - most of us starting at around 11 - that having the right not to have our physical space invaded doesn't make it wise to insist that those rights at any particular place or time.

Your expectation that this relatively minor invasion of your space will be met with righteous indignation by the female half of the population - women who live with that level of invasion or worse on a daily basis - is a product of the privilege associated with your gender. Spend some time with women exploring how invasive this particular encounter actually was, in the grand scale of things. It might help you understand the reaction in this thread.

I would expect a similar response if I expressed outrage at being pulled over and asked to step out of the car (for no apparent reason) to a community that is half black (many of whom have been pulled over repeatedly for DWB).

[Downtown Hound]

181. And if a woman posted a story like this about how she stood up

For herself in a situation like this, 10 bucks says most you would be telling her she rocks and is an inspirational badass. Especially in this Me Too era. Yes, I do believe that.

[Ms. Toad]

194. Most women wouldn't post about it.

If we did, there would be almost nothing in GD but threads complaining of men invading our personal space.

Only someone who doesn't experience this kind of invasion of personal space on a regular basis would believe someone merely standing too close was significant enough to merit a thread expressing outrage, seeking support for decking (or otherwise defending against) the offender.

That is not to say it was appropriate behavior on his part. But I'd have been dead of a heart attack years ago if I responded with similar agitation every time someone invaded my personal space.

[Downtown Hound]

196. Sorry, but the few times in my life that

This has happened to women I know they made quite a big deal about it. So you can sit there and tell me this kind of thing happens every day to you, but I'm just not going to believe it, sorry. I don't deny that this happens more frequently to women than to men, but don't act like every woman would just take this in stride and not think twice about it because that's bullshit.

[Ms. Toad]

204. I didn't say they would take it in stride

What I am saying is that it is not the level of personal space invasion that rises to the level of expecting sympathy and outrage. You seriously need to read through the #MeToo threads on twitter, talk to - no listen to - women. Part of your problem in this thread is that you aren't listening - you're batting back at women who are telling you that what you experienced is merely the background noise we live with on a daily basis.

I'm not surprised that you are only aware of a "few times" when it happened to women you know.

First, women don't report - to anyone - as a general rule. Why bother - it doesn't' change anything. The #MeToo movement is the first time in my 60+ years of living that there has been a vehicle for women to share their experiences in a way that did not automatically trigger knee jerk defensive responses (from men) and self-protective responses (from women - counter-intuitively some of the most challenging doctors I dealt with in the ER as a rape crisis advocate were women, who - for psychological reasons - needed to find a way to believe that they couldn't be raped because they would never act as this particular rape survivor had). In the early days of the #MeToo movement, for the first time, men heard from women in a way they were actually able to hear, the every day experience of women.

Second - from your reactions in this thread, you would not be someone I would share stories of inappropriate conduct with. You are extremely dismissive of women who are trying to tell you that this is what we experience all the time. Women tend to be pretty perceptive about who will be supportive - and who won't, and avoid sharing with people who will make surviving harder. So it doesn't surprise me to know that your female friends have not confided in you in any significant number.

As for whether you believe me - let me suggest that implying I'm a liar is entirely consistent with you not knowing many women this has happened to. Your friends are probably not interested in having it implied that they are liars.

It happens too frequently for me to remember each incident distinctly and, as I said, if I worked myself up to the level of agitation you have, I'd have been dead of a heart attack - probably before I was out of my teens.

I have been sexually assaulted in ways that are distinct enough that remember (with less than a minute's thought) a dozen times - including rape, twice. If I took time going through my memory banks, I'm sure there are even more.

The last time I had an experience similar to yours was December. During December I can also distinctly remember 5 incidents of inappropriate familiarity that included not only invasion of space, but also physical touching. It would be extremely rare for me to distinctly remember an invasion of space that did not also involve physical touching even in the month after it happened, because I don't have space in my memory to track all of that.

I can only distinctly remember the December events because that was that was the last full month and I have an easy frame of reference. But, rest assured, December was not out-of-the-ordinary.

[Downtown Hound]

214. I'm not dismissive of women

I'm dismissive of you. There are women in this thread who agree with me.

[Ms. Toad]

239. I'm hardly the only one in this thread.

I immediately reacted to what you wrote, but didn't post until I scrolled through the post - I wondered how many posts I'd have to read before others made the same observation.

Not long. Before I made my first post, I had scrolled past at least three saying essentially the same thing - followed by your dismissal of them.

I see precisely one woman agreeing with you - and even she says it happens to women all of the time. You have dismissed every other woman in this thread who disagrees with you. So - yes, you are dismissive of women (generally) on this issue - unless they happen to agree with you - and - most of us in this thread disagree with you.

[Downtown Hound]

251. Between you and me

I'm actually the one who thinks women should not have to deal with this all the time and have a right to stand up for themselves. You seem to think they should just take it and move on.

So I actually think it's you who's being dismissive of women, not me.

[pnwmom]

310. I agree that women face situations like this all the time. HOWEVER

I think it is a good thing that a large man got a taste of this and came away with an understanding he probably didn't have before of how unnerving these situations can be.

But when, instead of suppressing his vulnerable and stressed feelings -- like men in our culture are taught to do -- he expressed them, people responded by telling him to toughen up.

Yes, women frequently face situations like this, and with lots of men -- not just crazy men. And we often don't know whether we're dealing with a crazy man or a man trying to hit on us or a man who's just being an asshole.

So now at least one man "gets it" on a visceral level because he was put in this position for a few unnerving minutes. Knowing how it feels, he'd be less likely to be tempted to invade a woman's space. It's hard for me to understand how that's a bad thing.

[Ms. Toad]

314. Actually, he doesn't get it.

He is outraged at a relatively minor intrusion into his space - and dismissive of the vast majority of women in this thread who are trying to educate him about the reality of women's lives. He almost literally called me a liar

He STILL thinks it is relatively rare for women - because the very few woman who have personally told him about their space being invaded made a big deal out of it. In his mind that it is relatively rare, this rare kind of incident was really bad, and the only appropriate response is macho bluster (and anyone who doesn't respond that way is a coward (he expressly said that). AND, he is using your comments to dismiss my lived experiences, and the experiences of other women in this thread, who are trying to give him a wake-up call.

No. I'm not going to feel sorry for a not-so-little boy who ONCE experiences something which I experience on a regular basis (I counted 6 incidents in December, alone) - and who expects others (including those of us who experience that kind of interaction on a very regular basis) to be outraged on his behalf.

I might feel differently if his conduct in this thread demonstrated ANY understanding. But it doesn't - it is all bluster and anger that we're not outraged on his behalf.

In my opinion, it is like a white person attending a mixed race meeting and sucking all of the air out of the room by demanding people be outraged at the police who pulled him over for no apparent reason - as if it wasn't a regular experience for the minority members in attendance. And then calling them cowards for suggesting that perhaps the safest response was to comply, keep your hands in plain sight on the steering wheel, and move slowly - rather than getting in the officer's face.

[womanofthehills]

231. I would never sit under a tree in an area frequented by homeless & transients

and expect none would interact with me. Oh, the shock of it all!!!

[Downtown Hound]

249. I would never dress in sexually provocative clothing

and expect men not to harass or assault me. Oh the shock of it all!

This is a college in a neighborhood that I lived in for years and pay money to attend. I am not going to hide in my home and be afraid to go outside. But thank you for making us all feel like we should live like prisoners because we don't want to offend your tender little sensibilities about aggressive self defense.

[BoneyardDem]

272. Just like I wouldn't wander through neighborhoods....

where people think they own the street/turf. Is it turns out, if I was in the situation of the student, when the transient wanted to talk to their tree, I would have assume some sort of gang turf. It aggravates the hell outta me when gangs thing they *own* public property...as if they paid and built it...and bully, threaten, steal from, drive off, man handle, beat, injure*trespassers*, but that's another thread.

[pnwmom]

308. Did you see the picture of his campus? It absolutely doesn't look like gang turf.

It looks like a typical American college campus, complete with grass and trees and beautiful buildings.

[pnwmom]

307. Did you see the photo of his campus? Students OFTEN sit on the grass and read between classes.

But he also said this guy didn't look homeless or transient, that he was well-dressed.

[spooky3]

210. +1 Sorry I didn't see your post before I said something similar.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

14. What the fuck is this shit right here.

[Downtown Hound]

18. Me asking a question.

[unblock]

15. not a lawyer, but my understanding is that the threat of violence has to be real.

merely being close to the other guy isn't enough.
merely acting weird isn't enough.
merely being bigger than the other guy isn't enough (i know in this case you were the bigger guy, just saying such things don't matter).


from what you describe, he didn't act violently toward you and he didn't threaten you.
he may have made you uncomfortable, and maybe did things to make you wary that he might *become* violent, but he wasn't violent yet.

i believe you have no case to make him leave nor do you have a case to react with violence.

[Downtown Hound]

17. So basically, I could just go up to a woman and stand inches away from her

totally get in her space, make her feel threatened, and she couldn't do anything about it if I didn't actually threaten violence. I don't think that's true.

[unblock]

19. a lot is packed into that "make her feel threatened".

if you actually threatened her, then sure, she could fight back.

if you merely got right next to her and started talking to the tree she was sitting against, then no.

[Downtown Hound]

20. He didn't just start talking to the tree

He walked right over to where I was, put his hand on the tree, hovered over me and looked right down at me. He only started talking to the tree when I asked him what he wanted. I don't think there are very many women who wouldn't feel threatened by that.

[unblock]

34. you were right to be wary. i'm not disputing that.

i'm just saying that i don't think what you describe is enough to justify reacting with violence.

if he said he's going to hurt you, sure.

if he made a fist and pulled it back, sure.

if he made physical contact in any way, sure.


but what you describe isn't enough, imho.

i'd say the same thing if you were a woman and/or smaller than the other guy.

[Downtown Hound]

37. And if you tell someone to leave you alone and they don't, what then?

Are you just supposed to allow the harassment to continue? Sorry, but I believe you have a right to be left in peace, and if someone won't do that, you are within your rights to force them to stop.

[unblock]

108. good luck staying out of prison with that attitude.

there are a lot of questions around what actions constitute "harassment" or "a threat".

yes, if someone is threatening you or harassing you, then you have the right to take some actions, some of which may be physical, though it's not a license to beat the crap out of someone or kill them.

but there are legal standards, and a lot of action that people consider "harassment" or "threatening" aren't enough to meet those legal standard. legally they might be considered merely really annoying.

generally speaking, people have the right to be assholes.


if you did move and the guy approached you again and again came within inches in your new location, you'd have a much better case.

you're on much firmer ground if you resort to violence only after exhausting non-violent solutions.

[Downtown Hound]

119. I've done just fine so far.

[Lee-Lee]

246. No, you are not within your rights to force them at that point

You can use force in self defense when presented with an assault on you that uses force or is attempting to use force.

Someone getting real close and talking in a way that makes you uncomfortable is not that.

In every state if you used force based on your description of events you are the attacker and the one that would face charges.

[Downtown Hound]

252. And maybe that's why Stand Your Ground laws exist

Now, for the record, I don't agree with most of them and think they make it way too easy to use deadly force. But we live in a society, which has clearly been reflected in this thread, where the overwhelming onus of responsibility for avoiding conflict is placed on the victim. Somebody harassed you while you're reading a book? Get up and walk away. Getting bullied in school? Walk away ( never mind that you're going to have to deal with your bully again tomorrow and he's only going to be more encouraged now that he's seen you retreat). Live in an area where there's homeless people and transients? Stay inside and never come out, and if you do, you're just asking for trouble and you've brought in on yourself. Got raped or groped? You shouldn't have been wearing that slutty dress.

Have you ever considered that maybe the reason why people feel compelled to pass laws like Stand Your Ground, which goes too far in my opinion, is precisely because we have taken away the right of people to defend themselves and their dignity and right to feel safe and place all the responsibility for avoiding conflict on the victim and never the aggressor?

[Lee-Lee]

258. No, its not

Read my longer explanation lower down in this thread.

Stand your ground laws don’t allow use for force against someone who hasn’t used force against you or isn’t an imminent threat of doing so.

I’m in the least restrictive of “Stand Your Ground” states in your scenario as you described you would not be warranted in using force against this person.

I teach self defense. I teach concealed carry. I teach it in Stand Your Ground states.

At no point in that interaction you described is there anything that justifies the use of any kind of force against that person. Period. End of story. Not legally and not morally.

You suffered no harm aside from being made a little uncomfortable.

Your best option was to simply disengage from the person and leave the situation.

You seem to be determined to argue you should be allowed to initiate the use of physical force against this person just for making you uncomfortable. That’s not how it works, and that is not how it should ever work.

You are confusing actual defense of yourself from bodily harm and defense of your “dignity”. You can and absolutely defend your self from actual physical harm if that is a threat. You absolutely do not have the right to use force against someone because they slighted you or assaulted your “dignity” but are not a threat of actual physical harm.

You need to understand the very clear line that exists there.

If you were a student in one of my concealed carry classes arguing you should be able to use any kind of physical force against a person in an interaction like this I would refund your class fee, remove you from the class and advise you to seek some competent mental health treatment for your anger and agresssion issues, because I would never sign a certification with my name on it stating a person with your mentality was trained and ready to handle the responsibility of having a conclead weapon.

[Downtown Hound]

263. That's nice

I don't take your class and have no desire to carry a gun, but I find it ironic that you think I'm the dangerous one and not the people you help every day walk around armed. And I already responded to your post below.

[Lee-Lee]

293. I carry precisely because there are people like you who want to assault people without cause

You are here trying your best to argue you would be justified in using physical force against a person who did not use force against you in any way and just made you feel uneasy.

You are arguing against everyone who is telling you that it would be both legally and morally wrong, continuing to try and justify the idea of “coming to blows”, to use your term, with someone who did not harm you.

Your willingness to physically attack someone only for making you uncomfortable of saying things you don’t like demonstrates anger issues and a willingness to resort to physical violence where it is totally not called for.

People like you, who would find tit justified to assault people only for saying things you don’t like or standing too close to you, are the exact reason people like me donchoose to possess the means to defend ourselves.

Look back- both of us are saying what is the right reaction to your scenario. My response is all about not using violence and simply removing yourself from the problem scenario before it becomes a bigger problem. You are continually looking for justification to escleate it and become violent.

[pnwmom]

111. And that is a problem. Men think they can get away with something like that

and the victim will almost always be blamed.

[Downtown Hound]

124. Bingo!

And most of the people here are reinforcing that.

[unblock]

201. There certainly is a range of behaviors that fall short of justifying violence

And yet are well within the asshole category.

And the difference between what actually happens and what can be demonstrated in court definitely adds an unfortunate dimension.

[Mariana]

305. It's a no-win situation for women.

Often men who do that to women become angry, like the man in this story did, when the woman "stands up for herself". Angry men are more dangerous, so many women will quite reasonably try to avoid making a strange man angry.

It sounds like this is the very first time something remotely like this has ever happened to the OP. I don't think he can even imagine what it's like to be a 13 year old girl who's experiencing something like this for the first time. I don't think he understands how frightening it can be, when she asks the man politely to leave her alone and he gets angry and threatening, and how such an encounter might affect her behavior in such situations for the rest of her life.

I'm very glad the OP was able to get out of the situation without anyone getting hurt.

[pnwmom]

306. From my back-and-forths with the OP, I think he does understand

how intimidating this would be to a girl or woman.

More so than some of the people who are disparaging him for expressing his discomfort. The men who think they should not have uncomfortable feelings, who suppress their own anxious feelings in a situation like this, are less likely to be empathic toward women -- not more.

[Mariana]

319. It's hard to tell.

He's spent so much time in this thread misrepresenting other people's posts, erecting strawmen to knock down, and insulting those who disagree with him that it's hard to tell how empathetic he may or may not be in real life.

[Voltaire2]

51. Well you could do that. You would be a creep.

But unless there was a restraining order against you covering this person, you would not be breaking any laws.

Walking away from this person would have been the obvious right choice.

[Downtown Hound]

52. Yes, I would be a creep.

However, the law is not so clear on the fact that no laws are being broken.

"Personal space is an approximate area surrounding an individual in which other people should not physically violate in order for them to feel comfortable and secure. It is the zone around individuals which they regard as psychologically theirs. The amount of personal space required for any given person is subjective. It also depends on how well you know the other person. The more intimate the relationship, the less personal space is involved.

The law does not recognize a specific crime or civil action based on violation of personal space per se. However, the law does recognize various actions based on assault, harassment and unwelcome touching."

https://definitions.uslegal.com/p/personal-space/

[Voltaire2]

61. Fine have it your way. Pick fights with random disturbed

people and congratulate yourself on how righteous you are.

The first rule of self defense is conflict avoidance.

[Downtown Hound]

64. Me standing up for my space is NOT picking a fight.

Just more victim blaming horseshit. Now going over to someone while they're reading a book and getting right up in their grill, that's picking a fight.

[jberryhill]

83. If your behavior there was anything like your behavior here, then...

[Downtown Hound]

91. And how is my behavior here so terrible?

Apparently you really seem to have a problem with people defending themselves. You want me to roll over when I'm being harassed on the street and you want me to roll over when I'm being harassed on DU. LOL.

Not going to happen in either case. Sorry to break it to you.

[jberryhill]

184. Suggestion

Decide for yourself if your behavior was terrible or not. Delegating the job of being your conscience to other people will typically be disappointing and frustrating.

[Downtown Hound]

188. I feel just fine about it, thanks.

[jberryhill]

192. Then, good!

All is well.

[womanofthehills]

234. You seem to not get it that mentally ill people don't behave like normal people

[Downtown Hound]

268. On the contrary

I'm all too aware they behave like normal people. Which is why everybody here telling me I should have instantly recognized he was mentally ill and moved is rather silly to me. Mentally ill people don't wear an identification tag. I still don't know what exactly was going on with him. All I know is he got way too close for my comfort when he could have easily gone just a few feet away and I wouldn't have had a problem with him.

What I do know about mental illness is that somebody can snap and be dangerous in an instant, so when I'm reading a book peacefully by myself and somebody comes right up on me, it sets all kinds of alarm bells off. Especially because yes, there are a fair share of dangerously unstable, mentally ill people wandering around in the neighborhood where I live. And as such, I very reasonably have my guard up when somebody encroaches on my personal space like that.

[smirkymonkey]

89. Thank YOU!

Sheesh!

Some things are perfectly simple.

[jberryhill]

185. But picking fights with random disturbed people is what DU is FOR!

[Downtown Hound]

190. So explain to me how I picked a fight with him

When he came up to me?

[jberryhill]

82. It's important to distinguish between a "legal question" and a "fact question"

Legally, if a reasonable person would have felt threatened, there may be assault.

HOWEVER, whether a hypothetical reasonable person would have felt threatened is not a "legal question". At law, that is a fact question. That is a question about the particular facts here, which neither you, and certainly not the OP, can answer. That is the sort of question that goes to a jury.

[unblock]

95. agreed. the legal question would be what are the conditions necessary to constitute assault

or harassment or whatever; and the fact question would be do the facts satisfy those conditions.

the legal question in this case might be, if the poster hit the crazy guy and got charged with battery, what are the conditions needed to support a legal defense of self-defense.

if the answer to that question boils down to "would a reasonable person in that situation feel threatened", then the fact question would become in this particular case, would a reasonable person feel threatened.


of course, there might also be a civil case out from all this, and even if he's not guilty of battery, he still might have to pay medical bills.

it may be important that damages could have been greatly mitigated by simply walking away.

[True Dough]

105. I believe you have it right

The person who initiates the physical confrontation is more likely to be charged. If the other fellow threw a punch or kicked the OP, then the OP would have had the right to defend himself and could still have pressed charges of assault.

[Floyd R. Turbo]

21. Did you ever think that you were invading the trees personal space?

Seriously, I’d pack up my stuff and walk away!

[Downtown Hound]

22. LOL. He did say it was his tree...

[jberryhill]

58. The tree was assaulted

[Kirk Lover]

28. The guy sounds unbalanced...if that's the case...they win and I just walk away....n/t

[Mosby]

31. I think your question was a good one.

I'm curious myself about personal space.

[Downtown Hound]

33. Thank you!

Someone who actually understands that we have a right to go out in public and not be harassed! I didn't think one would be so hard to find on DU. Boy was I wrong!

[treestar]

32. He's crazy, so just walk away

Granted you have the right to be there, but crazy does not understand that. And I would say the same to a woman.

[unblock]

35. this is the good practical answer. even if one does have the legal right to stay, why?

the sane person has the ability to completely diffuse the situation. even if the law gave him the right to react with violence, he should exercise his right to simply walk away.

[Downtown Hound]

39. And let's just pretend for a minute, that I don't believe I have to walk away

I was there first. i was minding my own business. I did not go up to this individual and harass him. You seem to think that I am obligated to just retreat when somebody harasses me. I say bullshit. I am allowed to go out in public and be left alone. I told this person to leave me alone. In this case they did, but if they chose not to, I don't see that I am under obligation to just cede my space to somebody who can't respect my boundaries. I have a right to be there, and I have a right to assert myself then I fell threatened. And I am under no obligation to just roll over and let somebody harass me and run away because it fits with your world view. Sorry.

[unblock]

48. you're trying to assert a private property right to public space.

one of the wonderful things about private property is *exactly* what you describe, the right to be left alone in peace, minding your own business.

being in a public space is very different. it's community space, you do not have a private property interest in it.

you asked a legitimate question, of course someone else has no right to force you out of where you're sitting or standing, even if it's in a public space. but he didn't do that.


note, in this particular subthread, i'm wasn't talking about legal rights, like we were discussing elsewhere. here, i was talking about the wisdom to simply walk away even if there was a legal justification for getting violent.

just because you might have a right to do something doesn't mean it's a good idea to do exercise it. all kinds of bad things can happen once you get violent, even if you're perfectly justified in doing so. not the least of which is that what a judge and jury sees may not line up with what you saw. if you beat the guy to a bloody pulp, you might have a tough time convincing others that he was "in your space".

[Downtown Hound]

53. Even in the public sphere you still have some rights

Now in a crowded room or street, obviously you can't make a reasonable claim to personal space because there are no other options. But in this case, that was not so.

https://definitions.uslegal.com/p/personal-space/

[unblock]

97. some rights, yes; just not the same rights.

[Downtown Hound]

104. You still have the right to respond to behavior that anybody could see was

intimidating and a violation of your personal space. Going out in public does not take away that right.

[treestar]

118. Videotape him and then call the police

Because people have no right to commit a crime does not mean they will not do it.

What if he raised an ax and was about to strike you? You are not going to continue to sit there due to your right to sit there, I would hope.

[Downtown Hound]

121. You wnet from chasitising me for aggressively telling him to back off

ton wondering if I would just sit there if he pulled an axe on me. Um, how did that happen?

And to answer your question, no, I wouldn't just let him hack me with an axe over my right to sit there. But I would have thought that was obvious by my mere verbal protests of his harassment, and action which most people here seem to think was way over the top and wrong.

[treestar]

122. I re-read your opus

And it seems you did win - he went off into the sunset while you remained there.

[Downtown Hound]

127. Yes I did.

But what I was wondering is at what point are you legally allowed to defend your space when threatened. I so far have not received a satisfactory answer. every body is more interested in making me the bad guy even though I was just trying to get some studying done.

[pnwmom]

137. Well, not everybody.

[Downtown Hound]

138. Thank you!

[marybourg]

38. Please don't ever consider

moving to, or even visiting NewYork City, and definitely never ride a subway.

[Downtown Hound]

40. I've been to New York several times and rode the subway, thanks.

[marybourg]

134. Then you should be able to deduce the answer to your question.

And, by the way, the answer in N.Y. is that you're required to withdraw from the scene, if possible, even if violence is used against you. Unlike in FL

[Downtown Hound]

140. So if somebody came up to you and demanded your seat on the subway

You're legally required to give it to him? Somehow I doubt it.

[Voltaire2]

151. No if the unhinged person invades your space on the subway you move.

Or you stand your ground 'cause you're a righteous idiot. It's a choice actual new yorkers make a lot, and having grown up there, the best choice is "move". There is nothing at all important about the seat. Nothing.

[Downtown Hound]

155. Let yourself get bullied

And always give in and never stand up for yourself. Got it. Have you ever considered that the reason there's so many bullies in the world is because too many people do that?

[marybourg]

209. What you're required to do is what I said.

And if you use violence in a situation like that you have no defense. Except in your own home, you're required to back away from a confrontation.

People with ideas like yours caused some states to take a different tack, passing laws called "stand your ground". You may remember that from a Fl case. That's never been the norm in this country, and still isn't, but some red, macho states have such laws. So, your feelings aren't unique, but they'e not going to be popular here.

[pnwmom]

215. The OP hasn't said a word about shooting anyone. n/t

[marybourg]

217. And neither did I.

"Violence" encompasses actions far short of shooting.

[pnwmom]

218. You mentioned "stand your ground" laws. They give people the right to use deadly force,

such as guns, in reaction to fear of great bodily injury. The OP wasn't talking about using deadly force.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/states-that-have-stand-your-ground-laws.html

[marybourg]

220. The "stand your ground" laws were a

response to objections like the OP's to laws requiring people to "back off". Of course, noone is around to actually make you back off, but the gist of it is that you don't get to use a defense like " he started it", if you are brought up on charges for using violence. In "stand your ground" states, you can do just what the OP wants to do. And have a defense in court for whatever may ensue.

[Downtown Hound]

222. Stand your ground may be what I'm talking about

From a philosophical perspective. But I do not support the laws as they are now. Standing you ground in this instance is not the same thing as shooting somebody because they cut you off on the freeway.

[marybourg]

238. Well, you can stand your ground as long as you like,

but the only time it matters is when things get violent. And you can't always control when and if violence starts. So the question is: is it better to back off, or to stand your ground? Most people seem to feel it's better to back off and save a life, maybe even your own. People with a macho bent may refuse to do that, and in some states they have the law on their side. But that may cost a life. So which way would you really want to behave? And which law would you prefer in your state? Same law for everybody in the state, and you're expected to know the law before trouble starts, and act accordingly.

[Downtown Hound]

254. As I've already stated

It probably is the safer thing to back off, although it is no guarantee that it will work and you won't be followed. It was the safer thing for slaves to never revolt and just serve their masters. It was the safer thing to not rebel against England in the Revolution. It was the safer thing for Rosa Parks to just give up her seat to the white man.

Sometimes it isn't about always playing it safe. Sometimes it's about taking a stand. And taking a stand can be risky. But if no one ever took the risk, we would never have any progress, now would we?

[matt819]

41. Small point, perhaps

Why the gratuitous insult of the homeless?

Also, sometimes shit like this happens. That’s life. Walk away. Life’s too short.

[Downtown Hound]

47. Gratuitous insult of the homeless?

Where did I do that? I've been homeless in my life. The last thing I would ever do is insult them as a group.

[matt819]

57. Lets see

Maybe it was this:
There are a lot of homeless people in this community, and while most of them are harmless, there is a certain percentage of them that are mentally unstable and can be dangerous. I don't know for certain if this individual was homeless.

Pretty offensive generalization. Akin to trump characterizing Mexicans as criminals and rapists and maybe some are good people.

[Downtown Hound]

62. Oh bullshit

Hardly a generalization. It's a fact. Some of them ARE dangerous. And if you don't believe me, you're more than welcome to come to my community and walk around downtown late at night when the homeless are out and the businesses are closed. Your odds are in fact quite good that you will get harassed or maybe even assaulted or robbed. It happens fairly often around here, even in the daytime.

[LuckyCharms]

42. Not a lawyer, but I would think that since it did not appear to be

a violent act (more harassment than anything), you would probably at least have the duty to walk away. In my opinion, that is what you should have done. I know it is your right to be there, etc., but we have to pick the hills we want to die on, so to speak, many times in our lives. This is just one of those times.

[LuckyCharms]

43. Also...never yell what is your problem at someone...

unless you actually want a fight for some reason. Because it usually leads to that.

[DLevine]

44. Getting into an argument with a mentally ill stranger is never a good idea.

Just move on. Be glad you don't suffer from his illness.

[nolabear]

45. Um, hes disturbed. That should have been clear.

You don’t argue with disturbed, and you don’t rage against it. Neither does you any good.

[Lurks Often]

46. I'm not aware of a legal definition of "personal space"

and based on your description of the events above and depending on the state you live in, if a fight had broken out, it is very likely you would have been arrested and charged as well. I would not be optimistic about your chances in front of a jury, especially if there were witnesses who saw and more importantly, heard the conversation.

Assuming a competent DA:
-You failed to walk away or call the police, which the DA would tell the jury that you weren't really scared of him
-Your description of the conversation, especially at the beginning certainly didn't deescalate the issue and a good DA could even make the argument that you were escalating the situation.
-Since this was public property (or at least not your property) you had no legal right to ask him to leave and he had every right to be there.
-We'll presume, for the sake of discussion, that he was really mentally ill. That gives him the defense of diminished capacity and it makes you, the larger of the two people, look even more at fault.

In short, next time, walk away.

[Downtown Hound]

50. "You failed to walk away or call the police"

Maybe because I didn't feel I had to walk away. And by the time the police would have gotten there, it would have been too late for them to do anything.

"Your description of the conversation, especially at the beginning certainly didn't deescalate the issue and a good DA could even make the argument that you were escalating the situation." By this rationale, any attempt to assert your right to space and safety could be viewed as an escalation. To which I say, bullshit. Just more victim blaming.

"Since this was public property (or at least not your property) you had no legal right to ask him to leave and he had every right to be there." Really? So it would be okay with you if I just came up to you while your minding your own business and got literally inches away from you and behaved in an aggressive manner. And you would just let me do it because I have a right to be there? How about if I did it to your wife? Or your kids? Would your respect my right to do it then? Would you have a problem with me if I hovered over your wife and was literally inches away from her and acting aggressively or strangely? Or would you simply say, "Sorry honey. It's public property and he he has a right to be here?"

"We'll presume, for the sake of discussion, that he was really mentally ill. That gives him the defense of diminished capacity and it makes you, the larger of the two people, look even more at fault." At fault for what? I told him to leave me alone. Exactly what does that make me at fault for?

[matt819]

59. To answer your last question

Common sense.

[Downtown Hound]

66. Not really an answer but whatever.

[Lurks Often]

81. I didn't expect you to like or agree with my answer

And if you keep your current attitude and mindset, I expect you are going to have unpleasant encounters with law enforcement.

[Downtown Hound]

93. And why is that?

Because I told a person that was harassing me to leave me alone? That's going to invite negative response form law enforcement? I've managed to live 41 years, and the only negative interactions I've ever had with law enforcement were when I was protesting the illegal actions of my government.

But maybe you think I should roll over and let my government do what they want as well.

[Lurks Often]

107. Have fun!

[Mosby]

67. violating someones personal space is "simple assault"

Depending on the state he had no obligation to "walk away". (stand your ground laws).

So your pretty much wrong about everything.

https://tort.laws.com/intentional-interference/with-a-person/with-a-person-assault

[Lurks Often]

79. Maybe, maybe not

but my way means not getting arrested, not going to jail and not having to hire an expensive trial attorney.

As to simple assault, you'll need to prove intent, which is going to be hard with someone mentally ill (or behaving that way)

The same applies to stand your ground laws

The defense attorney is going have to prove that the mentally ill man would cause the reasonable person to be in fear of harm.

And I've not come across a court case where "Stand Your Ground" was used in a case NOT involving a reasonable fear of death or grave bodily harm, neither of which was present in the situation as described.

[tammywammy]

85. From your link, simple assault still requires physical contact

If no physical contact occurs between the plaintiff and defendant in a simple assault claim, there can be no judgment for the plaintiff, even if the court deems the defendant's conduct inappropriate. Charges of harassment or obscenity are options for plaintiffs who feel violated but were not physically contacted by the offender.

The OP’s story has no physical contact.

[Mosby]

289. assault apprehension of imminent harm

The link doesn't go into enough detail, but by definition assault does not necessarily include contact, that's battery.

[Meowmee]

49. Your best option

Is to leave immediately. Don’t engage crazy people. If you think they’re really dangerous alert the authorities. Another good piece of advice: if trouble doesn’t come looking for you don’t go looking for trouble.

[jberryhill]

55. What state?

No question like this can be answered unless you identify the state in question, since state laws on what might be various types of "menacing" or assault can differ wildly.

[Downtown Hound]

56. California

[jberryhill]

63. Unlawful assembly - both of you

CA Penal code 407

Whenever two or more persons assemble together to do an unlawful act, or do a lawful act in a violent, boisterous, or tumultuous manner, such assembly is an unlawful assembly.

(Amended by Stats. 1969, Ch. 365.)

You were both lawfully there to enjoy public property, but became boisterous and tumultuous.

Your best move is to turn yourself in now, so that your co-conspirator doesn't do it first and rat you out.

Now, scoot.

[Downtown Hound]

65. LOL!

[jberryhill]

72. I'm not joking

Things like "unlawful assembly" and "disturbing the peace" are catch-alls which enable the police to say, "Will you two guys knock it off?"

[Downtown Hound]

75. Really? LOL once again! Even harder this time!

"Whenever two or more persons assemble together to do an unlawful act, or do a lawful act in a violent, boisterous, or tumultuous manner, such assembly is an unlawful assembly."

And how does someone sitting under a tree in the front yard of an institution of higher learning studying his material and minding his own business fall under this category?

[jberryhill]

77. You were both lawfully there and became boisterous and tumultuous

[Downtown Hound]

78. Yes I did

When I felt justifiably threatened by his aggressive behavior and after I asked him to leave and he refused. And there is NOTHING illegal or wrong about that.

[jberryhill]

80. The first two words of your OP subject are "a question"

I gather you were not intending to ask a question, as much as propose an answer.

[Downtown Hound]

92. I asked a questionn, and everyone immediately accused me of being the aggressor

And since I don't agree with that assessment, I will defend myself against those accusations as well.

[jberryhill]

183. Hey, I'm talking to my subthread here, man

[Downtown Hound]

200. Well, I better just leave and let you have at it then

Lest I get lynched in the DU court of public opinion for having the nerve to defend myself.

[pnwmom]

113. Verbally confronting him is "boisterous and tumultuous"? Would the same standard

apply to a woman if a man arrived to hover over her, stare at her, and refused to move away?

[jberryhill]

182. In the real world...

...if a cop is called over to two guys having a dick-waving contest in a public place, the cop will tell them both to move along their separate ways or else.

...if a cop is called over to a man and a woman, and the woman is claiming that she has been accosted in some way, there will be different results.

True story: Years ago, I was on a commuter train heading home one night and needed to switch trains at a large station in Philly. It's winter, and I'm wearing a long black coat. As I'm reaching the end of the car, there is some sort of commotion going on in the middle of the car and I hear a woman loudly shouting to a conductor, "That man just pulled out his penis!" The conductor says, "Which one?" and she points at some guy a couple of feet behind me, but her pointing aim was not that good, and a concerned citizen thought she was pointing at me. The concerned citizen grabs me, and she shouts, "Not that one, THAT one" more carefully indicating the man in question. The other guy was taken into custody.

Hoo boy, for a moment there, having a train car full of people with daggers in their eyes at me was an experience I will never forget. No sirree. I didn't know if I was going to make it out of there alive.

[Downtown Hound]

187. So now asking to be left alone to study in peace

Is a dick waving contest. Sure. Why not?

[jberryhill]

189. At the time you would have attracted the attention of the constabulary, yes

The world is an unjust place.

[Downtown Hound]

193. And I would have just told them that

I was sitting there minding my own business when this guy decided to totally come and get in my space, and when I asked him to go someplace else, he got very beligerant with me.

It has the added virtue of being exactly what happened.

[pnwmom]

208. Well, that is quite a story!

It must have been an unnerving experience. Glad it was over so quickly.

[LAS14]

60. This isn't a good example to discuss invasion of space.

It's an interesting topic, but he was obviously disturbed enough that your attempt at engagement was inappropriate.

[Downtown Hound]

69. Why was it inappropriate?

Because I didn't just roll over and walk away like apparently all of you would have done. Excuse me if I don't just let myself be bullied or intimidated like apparently all of you would.

[LAS14]

98. Because this person was obviously disturbed.

[Downtown Hound]

166. All the more reason to let him know

I won't tolerate his aggression. What? You think every disturbed person is a cute little puppy who just needs love and understanding? Some of them are dangerous. Some of them are threatening. Some of them only understand firmness or forcefulness. Sorry to be the one to tell you Santa Claus isn't real here. But welcome to the real world.

[LAS14]

276. I think good people make allowances for people with mental difficulties. Do...

... you consider yourself a good person?

[Downtown Hound]

281. Making allowances for people with mental difficulties does not mean

taking your guard down when you are faced with a potential threat. I did not know who this person was. All I knew was that they came up to me and got way too close and behaved in a threatening and intrusive manner. And all I did was ask him to move someplace else, which he could have done.

So yes, I consider myself a good person, given that I wasn't the one who initiated this negative contact. I also find your question to be overly simplistic and highly loaded.

[LAS14]

284. Why didn't you just leave, instead of challenging him to let you have your way? It sounds...

... like you don't understand the concept of mental difficulties.

[Downtown Hound]

285. Because I don't have to leave

It's as simple as that. I have a right to be there. I told him he could easily talk to his tree in a way that was not directly in my face. And you are choosing to ignore the inherenet aggression he displayed and trying to make him out to be some poor misunderstood victim.

That is complete bullshit. He walked right up to me when he didn't have to. He got in my face when he didn't have to. He got way to close when he didn't have to. And he refused to leave when I asked him to and became very aggressive. So no, I don't feel I have to just retreat from that. And if you think that makes me a bad person, go ahead, I really don't care. I think you're more than a little foolish and naive. I am not going to just back down when intruded on just because it makes you feel better.

[pnwmom]

74. He couldn't have known from the OUTSET, before he started talking to him,

that the person was "disturbed." That was revealed over the course of their interaction.

[LAS14]

99. Early on. He shouldn't have pursued it. Ignore him or move.

[pnwmom]

103. Not that early on. If it happened to me, as a woman, I wouldn't even have known

with the tree remark. Was he insane or was he just trying to make a joke -- or be an asshole?

[kcr]

159. Are women somehow not capable of discerning signs of mental illness?

What does your being a woman have to do with it? I'm a woman and based on the OP's description, I'd guess the man had mental problems.

[pnwmom]

165. You weren't there from the beginning. You read a passage that BEGAN with the writers

CONCLUSION that the tree lover was unhinged -- so your whole view of the encounter was colored by that conclusion.

Yes, by the end, that was clear. But I have heard MANY jokes that might sound crazy if you took the person seriously. When the person is a stranger, it might not be immediately clear whether they really believe the crazy thing or if they're just jerking your chain or trying to be funny.

[kcr]

170. His CONCLUSION right at the very beginning you mean?

I'm sorry. I think it's the safe bet to assume a person is crazy if they want to talk to their tree. You lose nothing by walking away. How is that the incorrect action? How is staying and arguing, whether you're a man or a woman possibly the smart option? Especially if you're a woman since you brought that up? I'm trying and I'm just not getting your angle at all, here. So what if you don't know for sure? Who cares? Just walk away.

[pnwmom]

175. Sane men say crazier things than that to women every day, in a clumsy attempt

to connect with them.

And sane men also FOLLOW women who walk away. It has happened to many of us, including me, if not to you. On the other hand, I once told an obnoxious stranger who was in my face to "Just. Go. Away." And he did. There isn't a one size fits all solution to being harassed. (I know I was lucky and probably wouldn't tell my daughter to do the same thing. But sometimes we just react from the gut.)

I give the OP credit for acknowledging his uncomfortable feelings and not suppressing them -- as many men would do, in a misguided effort to be manly. Men who suppress their consciousness of helpless and uneasy feelings are the least likely to react empathically to women who express those feelings. The OP now understands -- unlike some people here.

[kcr]

177. The difference being they're sane.

Your attempt at turning the OP into #MeToo is pathetic. Just stop.

[pnwmom]

213. I knew nothing about the man I told to go away. I certainly didn't know he was sane

and he could have had a knife or a gun. He walked up to me with another man, got right in my face, and started saying things in a language I didn't speak. In retrospect, I am surprised that I reacted the way I did -- and am grateful it worked out okay. On the other hand, there have been times I walked away and was followed -- so I know that response doesn't always work either.

You can't tell by looking at someone whether they're sane (the OP mentioned that the tree hugger was well-dressed). And you can't tell till you know them whether the crazy things they're saying are really crazy or they're just joking or trying to get a rise out of you.

I think people are being too hard on the OP for expressing normal and conflicted things about a stressful, confusing situation.

[Downtown Hound]

198. Are you not capable of understanding that mental illness does

Not mean one is not dangerous, and in fact, someone with mental illness is actually more likely to be dangerous? I would have thought most people knew that. Apparently not.

[kcr]

223. Actually, mentally ill people aren't more likely to be dangerous

https://www.mentalhealth.gov/basics/mental-health-myths-facts

[Downtown Hound]

256. LOL. come walk around the streets here

Late at night, and then get back to me on that one.

[Downtown Hound]

110. Okay, let's try an experiment

Next time you go out and take a seat somewhere in public, let's have someone just come right up to you and get in your face, literally inches away from you, hover over you in a threatening manner, and let's see how long you can ignore it for.

And as for moving, why do I have to move? I am under no obligation to move just because somebody decides to harass me. I guess that uppity Rosa Parks should have just moved and gone to the back of the bus too. Boy she had an attitude, didn't she? She got what was coming to her.

[treestar]

120. You aren't making a point about civil rights for a minority

denied them. This was about how she was not legally allowed to sit there - no intimidation necessary.

[Downtown Hound]

130. Guess what? Neither was she.

She was just tired of being pushed around and felt she has a right to be there. It was what happened afterwards that turned it into a point about civil rights for a minority.

The bottom line is she felt she didn't have to move. And neither did I.

[treestar]

219. I wonder if you will end up as famous as she

for this brave stand.

[Downtown Hound]

228. Doubt it.

Last edited Fri Jan 12, 2018, 12:07 PM - Edit history (1)

But I wasn't really going for fame. I just wanted to study in peace. To be fair though, I don't think Rosa Parks was seeking fame either.

[pnwmom]

68. Welcome to every woman's world.

And how unsafe and uncomfortable we can feel, even though the men doing this to us are considered mentally stable.

[Downtown Hound]

70. And it's wrong

Even more wrong when everybody steps up and tells you that your only option is to walk away and let your harasser do whatever they want or you are the aggressor.

[pnwmom]

73. I agree. That kind of response, as reasonable as it seems to be on the surface,

has a blame the victim quality.

Good for you for speaking up. I would have been afraid to.

[Downtown Hound]

76. Thank you.

[Sailor65x1]

88. I wish could find the thread

But there was a discussion recently about the meaning of "Snowflake."

[Downtown Hound]

96. And why is that?

I'm not the one who let's people just intimidate him into surrendering his space over aggressive harassment. That applies to most of the people responding here, but not me.

[pnwmom]

100. Do you say that when women complain about men getting in their space? The OP's story

sounded like something that happens to women frequently.

Maybe some men just need to learn how to behave.

[Sailor65x1]

126. No, I sure don't, Not ever.

But the OP isn't a woman; the OP is a man, at least nominally. And the OP purports to be a 6'4" former boxer. The strong have a responsibility to protect others, not act like frightened children and then post long missives about it.

But I agree with you that men should always know how to behave; and this wasn't it.

[pnwmom]

131. I think some of the men who are responding dismissively are the same kind of men who

do this to women and think they (themselves) are being cute or funny. They're not.

And I applaud the OP for acknowledging the negative feelings he experienced. Many men would have suppressed those feelings of helplessness and just tried to "tough it out." I don't think that helps them be more empathic toward women. In the long run, suppressing the knowledge of their own uncomfortable and helpless feelings makes them LESS empathic toward women.

[Downtown Hound]

133. And again, because I'm a strong man

then that means I can't stand up for myself when I'm threatened? That means I can't tell somebody when what they are doing is making me feel uncomfortable or fearful? That means I am just supposed to allow somebody to behave in an aggressive and intimidating manner towards me? That means I am always supposed to just let somebody push me out of a space when I am doing no wrong?

Sorry but no, it doesn't. I have as much right to be free of harassment as anybody else. I have as much right to feel secure in my space as anybody else. And I have as much right to stand up for myself as anybody else. And if you don't like it, too bad.

[hunter]

102. Politely and firmly excuse yourself and let him talk to his tree.

What's the problem? You can't argue with crazy.

I seem to attract people like this, probably because they recognize me as a kindred spirit of sorts.

I'm fortunate I guess, psych meds work for me, mostly, and I don't tend to be obnoxious even at my worst, well except maybe to people who care about me, people who are trying to change me. I don't like change. At my very worst, Hunter-off-his-meds rock bottom, I want to be invisible. I'm very good at that.

Your tree-speaking guy may or may not be dangerous, but stand-your-ground nonsense is not going to make anything better for either one of you.

[pnwmom]

114. What if the person wasn't crazy? What if the OP was a woman and a guy walked up,

loomed over her, staring at her. And when she asked him to go away, he said it was his tree. He might not have been crazy. He might have thought he was funny, or he might have just been being an asshole.

And guess what? If she walked away, he might have followed her. And said it was his grass.

Women confront this kind of behavior from men frequently. Are we always supposed to slink away? I'd probably tell my daughter to just leave, but people here shouldn't be so dismissive of the OP's feeling in this situation. It is unnerving and upsetting when men behave aggressively like this. And it isn't always clear -- in the moment -- what the best response would be.

[hunter]

129. How about "assertively?"

I'll edit if that's better.

[hunter]

143. Well, if you were my great grandmas, you'd kill him.

My great grandmas were Wild West, zero tolerance for bad men. They could call their friends the sheriff-coroners to clean up the mess and file the proper paperwork.

I'm a pacifist by necessity, not by any natural inclination.

I've told some of my PTSD stories here on DU, but not the worst.

Sometimes a guy talking to his tree is just a guy talking to his tree, and there's nothing dishonorable about leaving him to it.

[Downtown Hound]

153. You act like I went up to him and intruded

on what he was doing. It was the other way around.

[hunter]

191. I've felt that way about cops at times.

And the hell of it is you can't just walk away from cops when they get in your face, even when they are wrong. Plus, they have guns.

Maybe it's just me, maybe that I've never lived a sheltered life, but obnoxious guys talking to trees are not extraordinary in my world.

I'm posting this from the library downtown and there are a few people around me here because the library is someplace to be. Everyone deserves a place to be, even those dysfunctional in our ordinary society.

There's a lot about our nation that's broken. Even if you could call the "authorities" in this story, seek some remedy in the courts, this guy might at best do his 72 hours and be released right back onto the street again because there's no place for him to be.

How do we solve that problem?

I doubt that more jails or prisons are the answer. The U.S.A. has more jails and prisons than any civilized nation, and clearly, by your own experience, it's not working.

[Downtown Hound]

195. This wasn't the police.

So your point is more than a little moot there.

[Downtown Hound]

141. Why is it nonsense to believe that you have a right to

Not be pushed around, by crazy or sane?

[LuckyCharms]

173. You can push back in whatever situation you want to.

But, is it worth it?

Is it?

Are you going to assert your "right to be there" every time someone looks at you sideways?

It's your choice, I guess. But for myself, I prefer to walk away without conflict.

So if you continued to push back against the guy...would you have won the tree territory?

I learned something a long time ago. If you are in a public place, no matter how big you are, how right you are, or how well you can fight/handle conflict...there is most likely someone within 100 feet of you that is tougher and "righter". And he is probably 5'2" and out of shape, but he has a knife in his pocket, and he is crazy enough to use it. Or, he gets a lucky punch in on you and you fall and crack your head wide open and die on the spot.

But at least you were "right".

[Downtown Hound]

211. Well, no one ever said life was safe

Or that standing up for yourself wasn't risky. But if no one ever did it, we'd all still be monkeys cowering to the one with the biggest stick. I guess you could say that I like to think there's a better way. But I know we'll never get there if never take a risk.

[peacebuzzard]

117. I think your space invader had an emotional/behavioral disability

I am glad your encounter did not escalate.

[underpants]

128. Marking to check responses

[Bayard]

132. A couple of thoughts

If you're 6'4", this could be about a smaller guy feeding his ego. My ex was also at that height, and it happened to him.

Speaking of the ex, we were grabbing a bite to eat before a movie when we lived in Cincinnati. I think it was a Frische's, Jerry's, some place like that. Back in the day when my hair was still long, and I had it in a braid down my back. There was a family with young kids sitting in a booth next to ours. One of the kids kept yanking on my hair. Of course, I turned around with some dirty looks. The mom, in skin tight dress, a ton of makeup, and bouffant hair, got up and squatted down next to me. She said something to the effect of--don't mess with my kids, or I'll beat the hell out of you. And she wouldn't leave.

Now, should we have gotten up and left our dinners? The place was packed, no manager in sight. I finally told the highly embarrassed husband to put his dog on a leash. He said--she does this. Before I could retort to that, she went back to her table.

Years later, I'd put it down to a big inferiority complex, made crazy by a batch of kids, seeing insult where there was none in the beginning. And probably some unbalance.

[MineralMan]

142. Simple. Walk off.

No point in doing anything else. That is all.

[Downtown Hound]

150. Go through life letting yourself get bullied and intimidated

Got it.

[Voltaire2]

152. yes that is exactly what we are all telling you

I see you've finally understood.

[Downtown Hound]

162. Sure seems like it.

[MineralMan]

157. Dude...what was gained?

Waste of time was what you described, along with useless conflict. You weren't bullied or intimidated. You were interrupted and annoyed. Why waste your time?

Weird guy. Let him talks to "his tree." Stand up and walk off. You accomplished nothing. You proved nothing. You just wasted some time.

[Downtown Hound]

169. Yes, I was bullied and intimidated

Sorry, but making a beeline right towards me, hovering over me, getting mere inches away from my face, and looking down at me is a form of intimidation. I know you like to think you would feel differently if it happened to you, but rest assured. You wouldn't.

[pnwmom]

168. Not so simple. I have walked off and then been followed. Many women have.

Now what?

[MineralMan]

260. In that case, I'd walk toward a group of people or an open business.

I would also take out my cell phone and dial 911 to report being followed by a suspicious person. I would not, however, confront that person if such a thing occurred. I'd be getting myself to a safer location.

I understand what you're saying completely. However, in the particular incident described. My solution would have worked for that man quite well, I'm sure.

[pnwmom]

279. But the OP did nothing worse than verbally engage with a person whom he didn't even know

was "unhinged" (he was well dressed and looked as sane as anyone) till that person's responses escalated.

Like I said, the tree-claim could have just been a smart aleck remark by a sane person trying to get his attention. Why are so many people scolding the OP instead of simply acknowledging that that must have been a stressful situation, especially unfortunate right on his own college campus where he SHOULD be able to read a book. And that, no, there is no simple solution to the problem of protecting one's "personal space," as unnerving as that situation must have been.

[Turbineguy]

156. Some people have a mission in life.

His seems to be making the rest of us seem just a tiny bit less crazy.

[Texasgal]

171. I'm confused

Why post this thread and ask for advice and then become argumentative when you get advice you don't agree with? This is a message board. You asked for advice... deal.

[Downtown Hound]

174. I am dealing

This actually wasn't the advice I was looking for. I was asking for legal clarification, not everybody's personal opinion that I should have just let this man intimidate me out of a space that I was working in and not bothering anybody. I asked what are the laws for defending your space if you feel threatened or harassed. Some people have given some answers along those lines, but no one has yet addressed this point in a satisfactory manner.

[Texasgal]

178. Sorry...but your last sentence

in your OP says: "any advice would be appreciated"

[Downtown Hound]

179. Law advice.

Is that better?

[Texasgal]

180. Google would have framed

your argument better.

[Downtown Hound]

197. Well I'll ask Google next time

Can't be any dumber than most of the responses here.

[spooky3]

216. +1

[WillowTree]

199. Just reading through this thread, it's apparent.......

.......that you had your mind made up that you were 100% in the right before you ever started typing and just wanted everyone to agree with you. A little getting over yourself might be in order. Maybe not. That's just the impression that's clearly coming through to me when you get sometimes defensive, sometimes patronizing and sometimes a little belligerent but rarely, if ever, receptive with just about anyone who didn't tell you what you want to hear.

[Downtown Hound]

202. Um, no.

I was asking about the legality of defending one's space. It's everyone else that turned this into a refrremdum on how I should have just walked away and allowed the poor oppressed man to talk to his tree, which, by the way, I was more than willing to do if he had just done it not right in front of my face when I was trying to study.

[WillowTree]

221. Whatever.

You may have interpreted his mere presence to be threatening, but considering that he just approached you, albeit in closer proximity than you would have liked, and started talking that's pretty much projection on your part. From what you said, he wasn't armed, he didn't actually touch you in any way and he didn't actually threaten you. So unless you can point to some law or ordinance that defines what your territorial "personal space" which cannot be invaded is, you wouldn't have any legal recourse in this situation. Therefore, you didn't have any more right to be where you were than he did and your reasonable choices would probably have been to decline to engage and either find another nice tree (preferred and least likely to result in escalation) or just ignore him.

[Downtown Hound]

226. So the fact that he didn't touch me makes it okay?

As I've now said to several people, next time you're quietly sitting there minding your own business and doing your own thing, let's see how you handle it if a strange man comes and gets right in your face and hovers over you. Somehow I doubt you'll be saying yourself, "Well, he has a right to be there. He's not touching me. He maybe be only inches away from me and doing something he could easily do just a few feet away in a manner that doesn't invade my privacy or my space, but hey, I'll value his right to be right up in my face as long as he's not touching me because I care more about that than I do my own safety or the potential threat this man poses to it.

I know, I know, you'd get up and move. Fine. Go ahead. As for me, I actually think I shouldn' t have to move just because this guy can't do his thing a few feet away from me. Call me crazy or the biggest asshole in the world. But yes, I actually do think I have the right to claim a very small space around me for my personal safety when I'm out in the world as long as its reasonable, and it was in this case. So no, I'm not a pushover who's just going give that up to the first person who comes along and can't respect that.

And at the end of the day, all I did was ask him what he wanted and asked him to go someplace else that wasn't in my space. You all are acting like I beat up on Sling Blade who was just well meaning but didn't understand. That's not what happened here, and if you want me to respect and hear what you are trying to say, then you need to respect and hear what I'm saying instead of making me out to be some horrible bully hyped up on machismo. If you can't do that, then I'm afraid I don't give a shit about what you have to say because you're not really capable of forming a reasonable opinion. No one seems to want to hear the fact that I felt threatened. No one seems to want to hear the fact that it was not me who started this. No one seems to want to hear about how I should not have to just get up and leave because somebody else can't respect my space.
Sorry. But until I hear some acknowledgement on that front I'm really not interested in what anybody has to say on the matter unless it relates to legal issues, which is what I was going for in the first place.
Do you understand that now? Good.

[WillowTree]

235. Brush up on your reading comprehension there, Bucko.

I didn't say anything like that. Not even close.

But, as you so self-righteously pointed out in your previous post to me, you were just asking about the legality of it all, and I'm saying that, based solely on what you yourself described, the guy didn't do anything illegal.

[Downtown Hound]

264. Legal definition of personal space

https://definitions.uslegal.com/p/personal-space/

[WillowTree]

266. And, from that link.......

"The law does not recognize a specific crime or civil action based on violation of personal space per se."

And, while you seem to have felt threatened by this noticeably smaller person who, according to your own description of the event, said nothing at all threatening, again, since you're ONLY interested in the legality of the situation, he did nothing illegal, no matter how much you want to believe he did.

[Downtown Hound]

271. What the definiton implies is that

any action that resulted from this, his intrusion into my personal space must be taken into account as a violation. Not necessarily a legal violation that can be spelled out in the letter of the law with its own penal code, but a psychological one that must be taken into account and reviewed on a case by case basis in accordance with whatever actions followed.

[WillowTree]

275. Fine. Next time call a cop.

Tell her/him how you feel threatened by this little guy/nutcase who talks to trees and ask them to call in a shrink to evaluate the situation. Make sure that they all know that no actual "actions followed", but you just want this guy to stop talking to YOUR side of the tree. Should make for good entertainment for everyone else in the area.

[Downtown Hound]

286. Call a cop.

Sure. And what to do about this individual in the 30 or so minutes until a cop shows up I don't know. But apparently you want me to just sit there and let him be right in my face until then and just ignore him. But whatever I do, according to you I have absolutely no right to stand up for myself or my space. I must call on others to do so for me and just endure it until they arrive.

[WillowTree]

295. As has been pointed out to you countless times by me and a host of others......

.......basically, your rational choices are to either stay where you are and ignore him or walk away. You, on the other hand, apparently want someone to tell you that, under the circumstances you describe, you'd be within your rights to get all confrontational with him in order for you to "stand up for [your]self or [your] space". I suppose that's another option, but one that shows little maturity and has lots of potential for things to get out of control quickly, since you don't really know who or what you're dealing with.

[XRubicon]

318. Hello Mr Lapierre

[XRubicon]

312. OP has a stench of stand your ground advocacy too.

[hardluck]

230. It sucks when two unhinged people want the same tree...

[womanofthehills]

236. Well said.....

[Ms. Toad]

240. That about says it all. n/t

[jberryhill]

241. ..snort..

[demmiblue]

248. !

[Downtown Hound]

259. So I'm unhinged because I feel I have a right be left alone in peace

While I'm studying and wouldn't just get up and cede my territory like all of you cowards would do? Lol.

[LAS14]

287. :-) K & R

[Lee-Lee]

245. Actual self defense laws vary by state

First, based on your description of events there was no cause for self defense, as there was no violent act directed to you nor any threat of an imminent violent act. And no, acting weird in a public space is not a threat of violence. Even if he said “I’m gonna kick your ass” it would not count, it would take some action like presenting a weapon or raised fists.

Absent any actual violent act directed at you if it had “come to blows” you would have been the aggressor in the exchange and you could, and should, be charged with assault.

Now had he hit you or otherwise been violent toward you what you can do depends on the state. States are broadly divided into two classes- Duty to Retreat and Stand Your Ground.

If you were in a Duty To Retreat state and this guy came up to you in a public space, acted weird, got close and then hit you you would be legally required to take every possible opportunity to Retreat, run away, end the conflict before you in any way struck him back or otherwise used physical means of self defense. So based on your description in a DTR state you would legally have to run away, if it “came to blows” your actions would be as illegal as his.

In a Stand Your Ground stage if he assaulted you first or showed indication of imminent assault with a fist swung at your or a weapon presented then you have the legal option of choosing to Retreat or choosing to defend yourself with appropriate force in response only until the threat is gone. This is important that you realize the “only until the threat is gone” part. Once again it varies by state but typically if you continue to use force after a person attempts to leave or says they give up or otherwise attempts to end their aggressive action to you then the roles swap and you become the attacker.

Here is an example, let’s say I am out with friends and a guy approached me and hit on me. I say I’m not interested. He grabs me and tries to drag me away from my friends. I swiftly kick him in the nuts and he drops to the floor in pain screaming “ok, ok I don’t want a bitch like you”. At that moment the threat or danger to me is ended. If I then was to punch him in the face several times while he was down that would cross the line from self defense to aggression and now he can be legally charged for the initial assault on me and my self defense was warranted but I can be charged with assault on him by continuing to use force after the danger to me was passed and he can now legally defend himself with force.

And no, there is no legal definition of “personal space”, so getting close to you is not illegal and doesn’t violate any laws or give you any legal grounds to react.

[Downtown Hound]

262. There actually is a legal definition of personal space

It's just subjective and subject to a case by case review. Hence why I started this thread.

https://definitions.uslegal.com/p/personal-space/

[Lee-Lee]

267. No there isnt- Can you cite the law?

Your link goes to a generic legal advice website that is little more than an ad farm. It isn’t quoting actual law or legal definitions.

For there to be a legal definition it has to be defined in actual statute. I can’t find any such thing.

Please quote the actual state with links to the law for that definition.

[Downtown Hound]

270. I didn't say law

I said definition. And the definition is used to apply to other laws.

[Lee-Lee]

291. You said legal definition- that means a law

A legal definition is a definition set by law.

For example assault has a legal definition.

Firearm has a legal definition.

Rape has a legal definition.

In any state you can go into the law and find those terms explicitly defined.

There is no legal definition for “personal space” as you wrongly claimed.

[LanternWaste]

247. I would avoid arguing with anyone who talks to a tree.

I would avoid arguing with anyone who talks to a tree.

And as my life is most certainly not as horrible as the tree whisperer's, it would not be a sacrifice on my part simply to move somewhere else, though I realize false pride my tell us differently.

I don't apply as consistently or as forcibly the vaguer and more broad social mores onto someone I suspect has emotional or mental issues.

It's something I'd infer as an unfortunate consequence of America's unique brand of treating and counselling both poverty and mental illness.

Get frustrated at the reason, not the victims.

On edit: my mistake. I thought you were sincerely looking for additional perspectives, but on reading the entire thread, it seems you're simply looking for validation of your actions and are dismissing any opinion which doesn't stroke your bias. Good luck!

[still_one]

265. ...................................

[WillowTree]

269. And, more recently, chairs............

[Retrograde]

297. Chairs that used to be trees!

It's the circle of life! or something.

[WillowTree]

298. I was going to say all in the same family, but.......

.......the circle of life works at least as well.

[deek]

277. Class assignment

When I was in college, our psych or soc professor assigned such a "personal space invasion" experiment for us to report.

[LAS14]

288. Huh! You may just hit the nail on the head. :-)

[treestar]

290. Assuming you don't want to tell us what state you are in

We can use my state's code, based on the Model Penal Code, which is the case for most states, the closest you can come seems to be:

§ 602 Menacing; unclassified misdemeanor.

(a)?A person is guilty of menacing when by some movement of body or any instrument the person intentionally places another person in fear of imminent physical injury.


§ 1311 Harassment; class A misdemeanor.

(a)?A person is guilty of harassment when, with intent to harass, annoy or alarm another person:

(1)?That person insults, taunts or challenges another person or engages in any other course of alarming or distressing conduct which serves no legitimate purpose and is in a manner which the person knows is likely to provoke a violent or disorderly response or cause a reasonable person to suffer fear, alarm, or distress;

Defenses

§ 401 Mental illness or psychiatric disorder.

(a)?In any prosecution for an offense, it is an affirmative defense that, at the time of the conduct charged, as a result of mental illness or serious mental disorder, the accused lacked substantial capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness of the accused's conduct. If the defendant prevails in establishing the affirmative defense provided in this subsection, the trier of fact shall return a verdict of "not guilty by reason of insanity."

(b)?Where the trier of fact determines that, at the time of the conduct charged, a defendant suffered from a mental illness or serious mental disorder which substantially disturbed such person's thinking, feeling or behavior and/or that such mental illness or serious mental disorder left such person with insufficient willpower to choose whether the person would do the act or refrain from doing it, although physically capable, the trier of fact shall return a verdict of "guilty, but mentally ill."

(c)?It shall not be a defense under this section if the alleged insanity or mental illness was proximately caused by the voluntary ingestion, inhalation or injection of intoxicating liquor, any drug or other mentally debilitating substance, or any combination thereof, unless such substance was prescribed for the defendant by a licensed health-care practitioner and was used in accordance with the directions of such prescription. As used in this chapter, the terms "insanity" or "mental illness" do not include an abnormality manifested only by repeated criminal or other antisocial conduct.

[WillowTree]

296. I think he said California.

[treestar]

320. Harder to research, but I found this

(a) Any person who (1) unlawfully fights within any building or upon the grounds of any school, community college, university, or state university or challenges another person within any building or upon the grounds to fight, or (2) maliciously and willfully disturbs another person within any of these buildings or upon the grounds by loud and unreasonable noise, or (3) uses offensive words within any of these buildings or upon the grounds which are inherently likely to provoke an immediate violent reaction is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine not exceeding four hundred dollars ($400) or by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not more than 90 days, or both.

[aikoaiko]

292. "The right to swing [his] arms in any direction ends where your nose begins."

to paraphrase John Stuart Mills

[LanternWaste]

294. This thread is a Moon-Bombing/I-don't-drink-with-you level of epic absurdity.

This thread is a Moon-Bombing/I-don't-drink-with-you level of epic absurdity. I salute your performance art, sir.

Almost certainly this line will go down in DU History: "He wasn't just innocently talking to a tree...."

[treestar]

299. Agreed. Add to cornflakes, Olive Garden and the door buzzard

[WillowTree]

321. OMG........I'd forgotten about the door buzzard!! Thanks for the revived laugh!

[Phentex]

304. Yep. I'm going to add corn nuts in school lunches as my contribution to this thread...

That teacher could really tell a tale.

[Ms. Toad]

309. In reference to?

[Demsrule86]

313. You should have just been pleasant and left...

never antagonize a person who may be mentally ill.

[Takket]

315. my two cents........

i think after he claimed he was talking to the tree i would have given him a minute and then just gotten up and left. i'm very introverted and shy and really don't like having anyone that close to me either. even people i know!