Help me out with something I've seen circulating on FB, please.

[Orrex]

I'm reluctant to link to the story itself, because I don't want to send traffic its way, but the headline is "What Happens When A Russiagate Skeptic Debates A Professional Russiagater," if you'd care to Google it.

The story purports to reveal the weakness of the theory that Russia meddled in the 2016 elections. I don't know the people involved in the debate itself, so I can't speak to to their credibility or their potential biases.

Without going point-by-point, which I'm not qualified to do, the strongest argument in favor of the legitimacy of the Russia investigation is the aggressiveness with which Republicans are trying to undermine and derail it. If they had any pretense of credibility, they'd give it as least as much effort as the devoted the Benghazi farce, but we know that's not going to happen. Since Republicans love nothing more than throwing tax dollars in the shitter, I see no reason why they wouldn't want the Mueller investigation to proceed, unless they're actually afraid of the results.

So what is your take on the "debate?" Sounds like bullshit to me, and I haven't engaged anyone about it on social media, but it feels like something that we'll see more and more as we go along.

[Demsrule86]

1. complete bullshit...all intel agencies say Russian meddled...I trust Obama.

Not these Russia lovers...got to be careful ...some on the left have a soft spot for Russian...don't know why as it is fascist not communist or socialist.

[Sophia4]

2. Mueller is investigating.

He will find out whether the facts support indictments or not.

Mueller is a Republican.

We don't know all the facts, the documents, the case, the law that he is considering. All the theories about Russia did this or Russia did not do this are just imagining, wishing, hoping, denying -- emotional outbursts.

We have to hope that Mueller will be given the time to thoroughly investigate and then allow the American people to review his findings and the evidence and decide for ourselves.

There are at least two, but not limited to two, central questions in the Mueller investigation. 1) Did the Russian government or Russian individuals interfere in our 2016 election and if so, how? 2) Did anyone in the Trump campaign or the Trump family assist or collaborate or conspire in Russian interference in the 2016 election?

Those are not the only questions to which we need answers.

If the answer to question number one is positive, a yes, then we need to know how we can prevent interference by Russians or Russia or any other country in our elections. We can't know that unless we find out what they did and how they did it.

If the answer to question number two is positive, then Congress needs to respond in some way by enacting legislation or perhaps amending our Constitution to deal with potential future situations of this sort.

The Mueller investigation needs to proceed whether you think that Russia interfered or not because this controversy will not go away. Those who believe that Russia interfered will never be convinced it did not unless the Mueller investigation presents the evidence showing that Russia did not interfere. That would lead to a very serious division in our country that would not be easily mended.

If Russia did not interfere, then that will heal a lot of pain and suffering and perhaps save our country.

The future of our country depends upon our knowing the facts and the truth about what happened with regard to potential Russian interference in our election.

That's why, whether you think that the Trump campaign somehow was assisted by Russian interference or not, it is essential to the future of our country and the trust we place in our nation and very basic unity in our country that the Mueller investigation continue and the Russia interference issue be resolved.

[SWBTATTReg]

4. Amen! Future interference must be stopped

[Mister Ed]

9. Perfect. No reasonable person, regardless of their political orientation, could disagree with this.

If it would be okay with you, I'm recommending that DU'ers should copy this text and send it to any of their friends or family who have taken up the hue and cry that Mueller's investigation must be halted. Those who reject this message will be neither reasoning persons nor patriots.

[Sophia4]

10. Fine with me if people copy what I wrote.

If Mueller is not allowed to continue his investigation and issue a report, the country will be seriously divided over this issue for generations to come.

It is important for the peace and security of our nation that Mueller complete his work as well as he can.

[SWBTATTReg]

3. I agree w/ you, they are trying to undermine and derail this efforts for

seemingly no reason. However, as we all know, there is a cause and reason for everything that happens in the universe...we may not see it immediately, but there is something there...something overwhelming, something that is earthshaking...something that is uttering driving these gop guys nuts...

(1) could be power, absolute power corrupts...I don't think this is it, the hysteria that's here is beyond a simple power grab;

(2) could be interference (Russian, Chinese, etc.)...I assumed that in the past, there probably has been some attempts of interference made, but had minor impact. With the advent of FB and other electronic means to access the population more easier, these attempts have probably more impact, although I would think most intelligent people take FB rants and raves w/ a grain of salt (just like Rush L. radio

(3) no, I think DT is in more shit than we realize? Perhaps DT had not girls in his hotel room, but boys? or both? Perhaps DT is in more cahoots w/ the Russian mob than suspected? After all, he's right in the middle of NYC (a very popular Russian mob go to spot), as well as his prior Russian interactions to which he's denied numerous times...

Just my opinion, but I think option 3 is most likely it. DT has shown that he's got no compass of morality, so (1) he's done an act(s) of immoral behavior (which the kgb probably has copies of), and/or the kgb probably has 100s of millions of dollars in forgivable loans (not declared as income by DT when it should have been)

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

5. I think it's clear that they meddled. What's unclear, ...

... is the amount of influence they had.

Just before the Nov election James Comey announce that the FBI was investigating a new batch of "Hillary" emails. That announcement probably did more damage than all the Russians combined.

But, it's a good topic for debate over a bottle of vodka.

Cheers.

[Orrex]

6. Thank you, all.

Your responses are very helpful (and encouraging).

[NCTraveler]

7. Republicans were in bed with them. Directly.

As were a number of top ranking Trump officials. That is known. Fact.

Considering their clearly deep ties, and the FACT that republicans directly reached out to Russian operatives, the investigation is clearly necessary.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-alleged-russian-hacker-teamed-up-with-florida-gop-operative-1495724787

There is so much that we now know. Show a list of Trumps creditors and the picture will become much more clear.

[Orrex]

8. Thank you!

DU is of tremendous value for formulating arguments and rebuttals, given the intelligence and passion of its members.

It's hard for any one of us to debunk all of the bullshit we encounter daily, but as a group we can pack quite a rhetorical punch!

[NCTraveler]

11. We really can. Across so many platforms.

[Ilsa]

12. Excellent thread. My guess is that the story you've seen on FB is Russian fiction.

It's a narrative they are trying to help get a foothold to discredit Mueller when the big indictments come down. The russian trolls and hackers have been at this game for years now on social media.

[mercuryblues]

13. I would say the indictments

and guilty pleas lends an air of legitimacy to the investigation.

[0rganism]

14. seems like goal conflation

"the strongest argument in favor of the legitimacy of the Russia investigation"
ok, proceed
"is the aggressiveness with which Republicans are trying to undermine and derail it."
FULL STOP RIGHT THERE
that is simply not the case, as "the Russia investigation" (at least as i understand it) regards the attempts by the Russian government and its agents to sabotage American democracy. "the aggressiveness with which Republicans are trying to undermine and derail it" reflects only the degree of GOP complicity (which by now certainly appears considerable), not the Russian meddling itself, nor the legitimacy/necessity of Mueller's investigation which was granted broad scope to examine the pathways of Russian interference, wherever they might lead.

what this kind of message attempts to do is separate the investigation from its original national security roots which are ostensibly difficult to attack as PR, and replant it as a solely partisan affair where it can be attacked from a variety of positions for PR as we see now. such activity is a combination of "Strawman" and "Moving the Goalposts" arguments, which tend to be quite successful despite their fallacious nature.

just my .02