On Libya: "Killing a dictator’s innocent grandchildren really showcases our moral superiority."

[Better Believe It]

US Assassinates Saif Qaddafi and Three Qaddafi Grandsons
by bmaz
April 30, 2011

That is some “no fly zone” that is being enforced; apparently civilians, women and children (Saif Qaddafi’s wife and children) on the ground are considered legitimate targets. Mr. Obama and his White House have spoken out of both sides of their mouths as to whether “regime change” was their goal. Defense Secretary Gates has admitted that Libya did not pose any “actual or imminent threat” to the US. Mr. Obama has refused to characterize the Libyan intervention as a war even though it obviously is. The US is, just as obviously, the lead actor despite the faux NATO patina and gloss put on the pig.

Quite frankly it is hard to find any legal basis under either UN or US authorizations for the action that has been consummated today. Section 4 of UNSCR 1973 does authorize a broad range of force to ”protect civilians and civilian populated areas”; however, it is hard to see the moral, ethical or legal justification for today’s acts in that. It seems all the more tenuous coming directly on the heels of Qaddafi’s plea for a ceasefire.

As Jeremy Scahill stated,

Killing a dictator’s innocent grandchildren really showcases our moral superiority.

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2011/04/30/us-assassinates-saif-qaddafi-and-three-qaddafi-grandsons/

[meow mix]

1. maybe his family should stay away from a sadist-murderer.

instead of supporting it, but then they couldn't indoctrinate kids into savagery

[plumbob]

4. Good advice. So how DO I leave Texas and escape Rick Perry?

And how do Wisconsonites leave their savage governor? And Michigan? Florida?

And how do all of us leave the US, led by a cabal of sadist-murderers without a break for at least the last 30 years? Where do we go for the land of milk and honey?

[Ship of Fools]

28. until perry knocks on your door with gun in hand, no analogy here

[plumbob]

34. My mother in law is in a nursing home. She'll be on the street by fall

after he closes half the nursing homes in Texas.

I'm a teacher. 100,000 Texas teachers will have no jobs come fall, thanks to his budget cuts.

I live in west Texas, the home of the new nuclear waste dump owned by Dallas billionaire Harold Simmons, invited by Perry. It sits right on top of our drinking water.

Any of this count, or am I just a whiner?

[Ship of Fools]

38. it counts, no question

and no, you're not whining. i just believe that war, right or wrong, has collateral damage.

btw, i'm a teacher. i have relatives in trouble. any of this count, or are we in agreement?

[plumbob]

46. War, right or wrong, has collateral damage. Correct.

That's why I haven't been for a war since WWII.

And yes, your situation counts. Sucks, tho. They told me when I was a younger to work hard and everything would be okay.

[polly7]

6. With the uprising and violence, do you know his family was able to

leave their residence? I don't. That's beside the point anyway ....... when we believe it's ok to kill innocents anywhere for whatever reason, we've lost any claim we're there for humanitarian purposes. There are ways to support a people rising against dictatorship, killing innocents and children is not one of them.

I'd say bombs are savagery, no matter who they come from.

[plumbob]

10. Well said. All evil bastards justify the killing of innocents with

oops - my bad!

or

We didn't MEAN to do that!

or

They do it, too!

Fuck all that. If the answer is killing kids, the question was totally fucked up to begin.

The so-called rebels started a new central bank this week - that might tip who they actually are. Ever hear of any revolution starting a new central bank and sending out a press release just weeks into the fighting with no end in sight?

[bobbolink]

74. I'm guessing it's OK with you now that an innocent woman was killed along with OBL?

BTW, NATO is saying there is no evidence the son OR children were killed.

Remember me saying something like that, and you coming after me? Remember that?

That's a report from NATO. You may want to mention something about that.

[mike_c]

8. yup, it's all their fault....

Blame the victims, THAT'S the ticket!

[Better Believe It]

11. Good point! And obviously the grandkids were leading the military operations against the rebels.

[Terra Alta]

12. so it's the kids' fault because they wouldn't run away?

this "blame the victim" mentality is disgusting.

[malaise]

40. FFS

stop defending Western slaughter of innocents.

[Forkboy]

52. ....

:eyes:

[seabeyond]

2. did they purposely target the grandchildren? if so, you have a point. nt

[Name removed]

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[HereSince1628]

7. I suspect that they DID consider collateral damage

Which makes the whole thing even more troubling for me. Cost-benefit analysis in human lives is a very ugly business.

[seabeyond]

14. yes? they said, hey, the three grandkids in there, we are aiming for you? what bullshit. nt

[Name removed]

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[seabeyond]

26. no, they did not say that. are you seriously so factually oblivious? nt

[Hannah Bell]

48. they knew his family was there. but the thought the bombs would magically fly around them.

[Name removed]

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[seabeyond]

69. offended, not so much. challenging "out there" statements, ya. nt

[Trajan]

41. This comment is simply beyond what is fair ...

I am against war and hate and hurt, but your statement is only your own opinion - It is not a fact ...

You have no idea if someone actually did or did not "consider or care about collateral damage" ....

You have no factual basis for saying this, other than your own desire for it to be true ...

You need to pull this one back .... It is a Strawman fallacy, at best ....

[Name removed]

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[Trajan]

60. Yeah .. it is ...

What it is NOT is factual ....

[Name removed]

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[blueamy66]

75. Why don't we put the blame where it belongs?

With the asshole that kept his family with him, when he knew that something like this could happen.

[Terra Alta]

16. they targeted his son's house

knowing his son had young children who would likely be at home. There is no excuse for what was done.

[Ship of Fools]

29. thank you

[bullwinkle428]

3. It was really effective in removing him from power, when we

first attempted it - 25 years ago.

[UnseenUndergrad]

9. Guys...

Has it ever occurred to anyone here that this thing may be a giant propaganda push by the regime? Perhaps something to increase dissatisfaction among the populace of the NATO participants, take pressure off military deployments and gin up anger among the loyalist population?

First, conflicting reports over Saif's real status. Second, no names or ages (let alone pictures) of the children allegedly killed. I don;t know about any of you, but I feel like we're being played.

[Better Believe It]

13. So it never happened and the pictures of the bombing were photoshoped?

I haven't seen the NATO/Obama administration denials of the bombing.

Perhaps you can provide the links.

[UnseenUndergrad]

20. I never said it never happened.

All I'm saying is that we should be aware that this is a state television apparatus reporting in the middle of a civil war; in this situation, it would be natural to expect attempts to use propaganda to maximum effect. Every government in history had done so... why not this one?

And NATO has confirmed the bombings, I WAS aware of that. I just don't think we should be taking everything that comes out of Libyan State TV as truth without recognizing that it is the mouth-piece of an autocratic regime on a war footing. If Saif and his children were killed, it is a tragedy. Children should not pay for the depredations of their elders... but let's be aware of the internal situation in analyzing all of this.

If you would like links confirming the bombings, I'd be more than happy to search for them.

[Better Believe It]

25. OK But I think based upon past bombings that it's likely this happened.

Until we have seen evidence to the contrary we have no reason to doubt this bombing and who was killed as a result of it.

[Hannah Bell]

49. guys -- ever think the reports of massive atrocities in libya might be a propaganda push

for the international bankster regime pushing for regime change?

[Faryn Balyncd]

17. K and R

[L. Coyote]

18. Killing a dictator’s innocent grandchildren really showcases WAR CRIMES!

Huge Do'h. This is a war crime, punishable by death.

[RC]

23. And the last Administration is still walking around loose.

[Enrique]

27. that's what American Exceptionalism is for

war crimes are for unexceptional countries.

[chill_wind]

73. For real. n/t

[Starry Messenger]

19. k&r

[Enrique]

21. is anyone mentioning the eerie Reagan parallel?

we killed a young child of this same dictator 35 years ago. And as I recall, that dictator killed some people in retaliation for that.

[UnseenUndergrad]

24. Ah, yes.

I've heard tell that she was actually posthumously adopted by Gadaffi... but right now I'm a bit foggy on exactly which attack was the reprisal. Could someone jog my memory?

[somone]

22. Recommended

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

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[Joe the Revelator]

32. What was the lie??

[Brianboru]

66. No Fly Zone.

Seems to be some mission creep.

[cliffordu]

31. Not to worry that there's no proof this just happened,

but you go ahead and hate away.

Business as usual

[thewiseguy]

33. Believing whatever Ghaddafi and their state TV says showcases our stupidity

[MedleyMisty]

35. Reposting my comment from another thread on this

Gaddafi lies. Don't swallow his propaganda. Wait for confirmation.

And of course the American media is very good at reporting propaganda, so they report it as if it's absolute fact. Which I think is part of why so many Americans seem to be getting their news from Libyan state TV - actually it's just that American media passes along whatever's on Libyan state TV without questioning it. Because that's how our media operates - reporting whatever governments say as if it's the absolute truth. Hey, that's easier and requires less energy than investigating anything or talking to multiple sources or anything silly like that.

You should come read the daily Libyan Revolution threads - we have plenty of links to news sources from all over the world. Not a lot of American ones, though. Because American corporate media sucks.

[ProSense]

36. So there has been confirmation?

The Gaddafi government reports something and a poster at FDL fills in the blanks?

"That is some “no fly zone” that is being enforced; apparently civilians, women and children (Saif Qaddafi’s wife and children) "

He was married, and these were his alleged children?

The Gaddafi government's report said they were Saif's "nieces and nephews"

<...>

"The leader himself is in good health, he wasn't harmed," the spokesman said, adding that Gaddafi's wife was also unharmed but other people in the house were injured.

"This was a direct operation to assassinate the leader of this country. This is not permitted by international law. It is not permitted by any moral code or principle.

"What we have now is the law of the jungle," Ibrahim told a news conference.

"We think now it is clear to everyone that what is happening in Libya has nothing to do with the protection of civilians."

Ibrahim would not give the names of the three children, who he claimed were killed, except to say they were nieces and nephews of Saif al-Arab and that they were younger than 12. He said they are not releasing the names yet to protect the privacy of the family.

link

[Turborama]

37. The 'news' of the deaths has come directly from Gaddafi's propaganda machine & has not been verified

Yet Jeremy Scahill is going with it regardless?

Wow, I thought he had more journalistic integrity than that.

[Better Believe It]

42. Right. And the place was never bombed. Just propaganda.

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

44. You and propaganda are inseparable. Everyone here knows this.

[Name removed]

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[Turborama]

45. I didn't say that. Read what I wrote again. n/t

[Name removed]

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[Turborama]

70. It wasn't an article by him, someone used his tweet. Here's evidence from him that he made a guess..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=999793&mesg_id=1001425

[Canuckistanian]

65. Is there definitive proof that Ghaddaffi's relatives were in there?

Given that the only "proof" is a Ghaddafi spokesman, that's a big pill to swallow.

I'll wait for independent verification that they were actually there.

[Turborama]

71. No, there isn't. A lot of people, including the mainstream media, are swallowing it whole, though.

[Name removed]

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[Turborama]

63. It was a tweet. Hardly proof that he knows anything about this other than what he tweeted.

I've seen his twitter account. Judging by what's in there he didn't know more than you, me or anyone else when he posted them.



THE ONE QUOTED IN THE OP...

From: http://twitter.com/#!/jeremyscahill/statuses/64468723670593536



AND ONE HE RETWEETED 1 HOUR LATER...

From: http://twitter.com/#!/jeremyscahill/statuses/64478547871399936

[Taitertots]

57. Because the Western corporate controlled propaganda machine has a history of accuracy

:sarcasm:

And after a life time of being openly lied to, you still run to them for confirmation.

[Turborama]

72. I'm not running to anyone for confirmation. I just won't believe it until there's verifiable proof.

The Western corporate media are swallowing this story whole, by the way.

As did Jeremy Scahil, judging by his tweets: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=999793&mesg_id=1001425

And Firedog Lake, with their article in the OP entitled: "US Assassinates Saif Qaddafi and Three Qaddafi Grandsons"

[WatsonT]

39. But this is a good war

sorry, kinetic action.

We had to do it to save the oil . . . people from the oppression of Saddam . . . Gaddafi.

Whatever, don't overthink. Obama said it was good so it is.

[Name removed]

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[peace4ever]

47. If they were piloting planes against the 'no-fly-zone' put in place by the UN

then we would have a legal leg to stand on.

[emilyg]

50. knr

[hulka38]

51. Can't/won't support this. nt

[David__77]

53. North Atlantic Terrorist Organization...

We must oppose this immoral and unjust war.

[Capitalocracy]

59. Now, I'd just like to point something out here...

it's not just dictators' grandchildren we're killing. We kill plenty of regular old folks' grandchildren as well in these wars.

And I'm not even against intervening with a no-fly zone and preventing the murder of civilians and protesters. But of course we have to fuck it all up.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. “What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless

“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.” - Mohandas K. Gandhi

[Freddie Stubbs]

67. If Qaddafi really cared about his grandchildren, he would have moved to a safer place

[Better Believe It]

68. And where would that be? Do you know of some locations NATO bombs can't reach in Libya.

I'm listening.