Who are Libya's rebels?

[TomClash]

I've never heard of the author or the website but it provides some insight on a segment of the rebels at least.

Who are Libya's rebels?

The undertones of the Libyan revolt are tinged with religious fundamentalism, rather than liberal democracy.

by Andy Stone
(centrist)
Saturday, March 19, 2011

As the commitment of French, British, Danish, Canadian and US military assets to Libya draws near, the fundamental question of the rebels' identity has not yet been seriously addressed. The international face of the revolt are former Qaddafi officials such as Abdul Jalil. It is, however, also clear that the conflict has been started and sustained by a mass uprising. (It is not a coup d'etat and most of the state apparatus has remained loyal.) Behind it all, who are the people on the ground, and what motivated them to revolt?

The facts are well documented, and at odds with wishful thinking. This is no Solidarnosc movement. The revolt was started in Benghazi on February 15-17th by the group called the National Conference of the Libyan Opposition. The protests had a clear fundamentalist religious motivation, and were convened to commemorate the 2006 Danish cartoons protests, which had been particularly violent in Benghazi.

The NCLO web site (Arabic) carries a document (Arabic; Google Cache; legible in automatic translation) dated February 15th (the day the protests began), which clearly spells out NCLO's objections to Qaddafi's rule. The main points of "Qaddafi: Islam's no. 1 enemy" are as follows:

Qaddafi has closed an Islamic university and a seminary, has forbidden some Islamist publications, and has thrown thousands of Islamist activists into jail.
Qaddafi has urged to put the Qur'an on the shelf, as no longer appropriate for this age.
Qaddafi has made fun of the Islamic veil, calling it a "rag" and a "tent".
Qaddafi has dared to say that Christians and Jews should be allowed to visit Mecca.
Qaddafi has rejected the Hadith and Sunnah, and said he follows the Qur'an alone.
(The last claim involves a curious episode. At one point, Qaddafi declared himself a follower of the "Qur'an alone" movement, which rejects orthodox Muslim punishments, like stoning for adultery, death penalty for homosexuals etc. This got him into some serious trouble. An international committee of scholars went to discuss the issue with Qaddafi. After being told that "if he did not repent and take back his statement, he would fall under the law of renegades and infidels <...> which would force true Muslims to kill him", Qaddafi "repented and took back his statement".)

http://www.nolanchart.com/article8465.html

[Catherina]

1. There's a dangerous school of thought there that the rebels whose women

can't even demonstrate along with them, in unisex demonstrations, who walk around in Burkas and full hijab in when it's 75-80 degrees in Libya, and waving a monarchy flag after waging an armed insurrection for years are some sort of nobel revolutionaries.

Must be because John McCain said so.

Rec'd

[thewiseguy]

5. You really have no shame do you?

Maybe this will open your eyes. I doubt it however.

As Libya's opposition fighters push west, doctors are uncovering more victims from the front line.

Several doctors say they have found Viagra tablets and condoms in the pockets of dead pro-Gaddafi fighters, alleging that they were using rape as a weapon of war.

They say they have been treating female rape survivors who were allied with pro-democracy forces.

Furthermore, 175 people, including doctors, have been reported missing from Ajdabiya, and many have now been found to have been killed.

Al Jazeera's Sue Turton reports from Ajdabiya.

http://english.aljazeera.net/video/africa/2011/03/201132845516144204.html

[JuniperLea]

7. It won't...

I finally had enough... that post put me over the edge and that person is on ignore now...

The pro-Gaddafi fighters are fueled by greed, much like every other corrupt "organization" and that causes a skewed moral compass, no question.

[defendandprotect]

14. Thank you -- evidently w/o Viagra they couldn't do enough damage to women -- ???

Rape has always been a tool of war --

many say that all war is really a war on women and children --




The Rightwing Koch Bros. Funded the DLC --

http://www.democrats.com/node/7789

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x498414

[Catherina]

10. What a surprise. 2 people on my ignore list who can't restrain themselves. Fail n/t

[thewiseguy]

13. Fail is for those who ignore people they disagree with on forums.

LOL. Why are you here again?

[defendandprotect]

Ignore is for people ....

who post disingenuous replies --

none of us have any problems dealing with debate, otherwise --

[JuniperLea]

21. +1

It's not the heated debate, it's the stupidity...

[Catherina]

23. Ignore is to avoid having to suffer replies lacking any substance or thought n/t

[TomClash]

16. I don't get it

First, I thought they meant me. Second, you did as much or more than anyone on this site to bring the Libyan situation to light than anyone. :shrug:

[JuniperLea]

22. There's a chance this can "look bad" for Obama...

Get it?

[TomClash]

24. Yeah I get that

Not what I was talking about.

[JuniperLea]

25. That's her motivation...

For that post.

Sorta like Newt... he was down with the no fly zone until there was a no fly zone.

[Catherina]

27. I committed the unforgivable sin of realizing after a while what a fairy tale the whole thing is.

This whole thing is a myth of epic proportions. My sin is having realized that and clearly stating so over two weeks ago.

[Distant Observer]

2. A Smear! Obviously. If there was any basis it would be in the MSM. Gaddafi = Evil Tyrant.

We know the truth. We are British, we are French, we are Americans!

[aquart]

4. Welcome to DU.

Supporters of self-enriching dictators have as much right to an opinion here as anyone else.

[sabrina 1]

9. For supporters of Qaddafi you have to look at our Government

particularly the Dept. Of Defense and the State Dept. And at the Governments of Britain, Spain, France, Canada all of whom were selling weapons, vying for huge contracts in Libya, hiring PR firms to 'improve Qaddafi's image around the world, inviting him to their countries where he was treated like royalty, up to February of this year.

All the while he was the West's favorite dictator, some of us were objecting, for years.

I'm fascinated by the sudden recognition that Qaddafi is a dictator since Feb/March of this year by people I never once saw raise an objection when he was photographed with Obama eg, last year, or when his son was entertained at the State Dept. by the SOS.

For those of us who supported the Libyan people from the beginning, but have serious reservations about who they are now relying on to help them create a democracy, you know, the ones who created 'democracy' in Iraq, it would be the height of hypocrisy and show a real lack of concern for the welfare of the people of Libya NOT to raise questions about the motivations of their newly transformed from warmingering invaders to humanitarian 'saviors'.

Qaddafi didn't change in Feb when he was doing everything he is now accused of. He is the same person who was wined and dined by the same people now claiming they suddenly developed a conscience regarding the Libyan people.

I fear for those people, who themselves have expressed fears, that their country will become another Iraq with an Iraq-style government. I agree with them, they have every reason to fear that.

Anyone who cares about Libyan civilians, will not be cheering for an invasion of their country by the exact same people who are currently killing civilians in AFghanistan on a daily basis.

What happens if this mission ends and NATO leaves? We know what would happen, which means they cannot leave.

I truly hope, for the sake of the people of Libya, that a miracle has happened and that the Western powers and their Global Oil Cartel buddies, have had a complete, miraculous change of heart and now truly do care about the people of Libya and that this miraculous transformation will extend to the people of Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan who have been begging them to stop slaughtering their loved ones.

If this miracle is real, there should be an end to the murderous drone attacks in Afghanistan and Pakistan right away.

[TomClash]

18. Brilliant

This post deserves its own thread.

[aquart]

3. A labeled "centrist"? LOL!

How much is Qaddafi paying that PR firm? Because this piece paints him as a saint we should be supporting.

Are you fucking serious?

[TomClash]

11. He's labeled "centrist" because of some test he took on the site

The piece concentrates mostly on the rebel forces in Eastern Libya. Few answers are given by the supporters of the war as to who the rebels are, including Juan Cole, who compares the rebels to the Lincoln Brigade, but tells us little about them. That is a curious omission.

For someone so fervently and reflexively supportive of anything Israel does to ask if I am "fucking serious" really is comical.

[Distant Observer]

19. The CHARGES make Gaddafi a Heretic leader worthy of fatwas of death

For the clerics of the Arabian Wahabi movement and its offspring the Senussi brotherhoods of Eastern Libya, Gaddafi's Liberal interpretations of the Quran and his unorthodox application to his theory of government called "jamahiriya"—or "government by the masses" is viewed as highly heretical.

This is nothing new to anyone who has followed politics in Africa to the slightest degree.

[The Magistrate]

26. Do You Know Anything About The Senussi, Sir?

From your comment above, particularly the claim they are an off-shoot of Wahhabism, it is difficult to conclude you do....

[Distant Observer]

29. Sir, I only lived among Muslims in Africa for a few years. Not an expert so I provide a link:

I hope this is a suitable authority:



http://senussi.askdefine.com/


The Senussi or Sanussi refers to a Muslim political-religious order in Libya and Sudan founded in Mecca in 1837 by the Grand Senussi, Sayyid Muhammad ibn Ali as-Senussi(1791–1859). Senussi was concerned with both the decline of Islamic thought and spirituality and the weakening of Muslim political integrity. He was influenced by the Wahhabi Movement, to which he added teachings from various Sufi orders.

[The Magistrate]

30. Then You Ought To Be Able To Do Considerably Better Than That, Sir

Roots are much closer to the Khadir, an odd little off-shoot of surprising antiquity. The nearest warrant for Wahabbi influence comes from the founders presence in Mecca, after study in several places, and his recourse to the 'back to the roots' concepts of Salafist thought, which, though often conflated with Wahabbism, is not only distinct from it but far older.

The development of the sect in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries in North Africa was wholly separate from developments in Arabia that led to the predominance of Wahabbism there. Nor has there been any close connection through the twentieth century.

The Senussi are certainly hostile to the West, though they adopted an 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' posture towards the English in regard to the Italians during the Second World War, but hostility to Western incursion on Islamic lands is hardly peculiar to Wahabbism, or the great bug-bear of al Queda.

[The Magistrate]

6. Funny Little Site, Sir: Full Of Gold-Bugs And Other Libertarian Loons

This is just more boiler-plate 'Obama BAD' swill; the man knows next to nothing about the topic he is engaging.

[TomClash]

12. I didn't see that anywhere

It didn't look like a loony site, but I certainly didn't study it thoroughly.

[The Magistrate]

15. Poke Around A Bit, Sir: Rum Fun

[CJvR]

8. You thought...

...it was only liberals that hated Gaddafi?

Hating Gaddafi is the one thing just about all Libyans can agree on.

[defendandprotect]

17. Who were the American rebels? Did we know all their names ... ?

[Distant Observer]

20. Who were the Conferate Leaders? How dare Lincoln oppose them. Too bad no planes in the sky

to pacify those evil Union forces who suppressed their fight for freedom.
:sarcasm:

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

28. The answer is probably more complicated than we hope

I'd guess that the only thing that almost unifies the rebels is that they want Qaddafi out and they want to defeat his army.

If that actually happens, due mostly to our intervention, then, after the celebratory gunfire into the air, the rebels will look around and say "now what?". And they'll proceed to split into warring factions, tribes, sects, etc. Unless we engage in a long, expensive program of rebuilding infrastructure and steering a favored few into leadership positions, the country will go "somalia" for some period. Until a strong tribal warlord unifies the country. Someone a whole lot like Qaddafi.

Whatever emerges, I would be surprised if it's a system that's any kinder and understanding than Qaddafi.

[The Magistrate]

31. Something To That, Sir

[Dash87]

32. These aren't freedom fighters. Gadaffi is a psychotic terrorist, but

we're pulling an Afghanistan all over again. We're arming our future enemies - nutty, misogynistic zealots. Why do we do this? Money and oil, of course.

I've been trying to say from the start that these rebels are not our friends.