Libyan Revolution Day 39 (dedicated to the women of the revolution)

[joshcryer]

Links to sites with updates: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/live-blog-libya-march-28">AJE Live Blog March 28 (today) http://blogs.aljazeera.net/twitter-dashboard">AJE Twitter Dashboard http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418">BBC Live Blog http://live.reuters.com/Event/Middle_East_Protests">Reuters Live Blog http://feb17.info/">feb17.info http://www.livestream.com/libya17feb?utm_source=lsplayer&utm_medium=embed&utm_campaign=footerlinks">Libya Alhurra (live video webcast from Benghazi) http://www.libyafeb17.com/">libyafeb17.com

Twitter links: http://twitter.com/#!/aymanm">Ayman Mohyeldin, with AJE http://twitter.com/#!/bencnn">Ben Wedeman, with CNN http://twitter.com/#!/tripolitanian">tripolitanian, a Libyan from Tripoli http://twitter.com/#!/BaghdadBrian">Brian Conley, reporter in Libya http://twitter.com/#!/freelibyanyouth">FreeLibyanYouth, Libyan advocate http://twitter.com/#!/LibyaFeb17_com">LibyaFeb17.com twitter account http://twitter.com/#!/ChangeInLibya">ChangeInLibya, Libyan advocate

Useful links: http://audioboo.fm/feb17voices">feb17voices http://www.google.com/search?q=time+in+libya">Current time in Libya http://www.islamicfinder.org/cityPrayerNew.php?country=libya">Prayer times in Libya

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x748891">Day 38 here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixwx_B38678">Marching On in Libya, for the revolutionaries!

Young women protest in Benghazi


I would like to thank Turborama for http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x594751">putting most of this together, please see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x594751">his post in editorial subforum with many more pictures.

http://www.thenational.ae/news/worldwide/africa/the-women-fighting-organising-feeding-and-healing-libya-s-revolution?pageCount=0">The women fighting, organising, feeding and healing Libya’s revolution
Bugaighis, a mother of three, is just one of a group of women who have been at the vanguard of Benghazi's uprising. Away from the front lines where the east's men are battling to hold off pro-Qaddafi forces, women work side-by-side with men to keep the rebels fighting, society and the economy functioning and the uprising visible.

Day jobs have been shed, replaced by a spirit of volunteerism that has led to ad hoc committees and fledgling democratic institutions. Some, like Bugaighis, are members of the organisational institutions centred in the courthouse. She is joined by her sister Iman Bugaighis, a professor-turned-spokeswoman for the rebels, and by Salwa el Deghali, the women's representative on the council. But, as was the case in Egypt and Tunisia, women were involved in the protests from the start, and Libyan women across all classes and levels of education are now playing a role from providing food to keeping up numbers in the streets, regardless of the outcome of the rebellion.

The uprising of which Bugaighis was part began with calls for protests on February 17, leading to the pro-democracy Libyans being dubbed the "February 17 rebels". But it sparked two days earlier when Fathi Terbil, a fellow lawyer, was arrested. He is representing the families of the victims of the massacre in Abu Salim, a notorious Tripoli prison where human rights organisations say some 1,200 people, mainly political prisoners, were killed after they rose up in 1996 - yet many of the wives and mothers weren't told of the deaths until 2009.

This, says Bugaighis, was the final straw. "For 42 years we have not been able to say what we want," she says. But small fires - fuelled by Benghazi's lawyers, many of them women - were burning long before. In September last year, Bugaighis and others took to the streets when the head of the legal union - a Qaddafi appointment - failed to step down long after the end of his term.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SaSjAzz_6E">The women of Benghazi - video
With their husbands, sons and brothers at the frontlines, the women of Benghazi are busy supporting them with meals and supplies, preparing thousands of sandwiches and warm meals daily.

Hoda Abdel Hamid reports from Benghazi, where the uprising began.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrvFOFYql9k">Libya - 09 Mar 2011, Women in Benghazi March Against Gaddafi Regime, 09/03/2011
Historic demonstration led by women against the Gaddafi regime started from Jamal street in Benghazi, an uninterrupted flow of demonstrators passing in front of the courthouse. Recorded live at 16:50 on 09/03/2011

Note: this final video is by Mohammed Nabbous, who was killed. He's memorialized at the bottom of every one of these posts and will continue to be. "Allah Akbar, Allah Akbar, it's just flowing, and flowing, it's not stopping!"

Again: I would like to thank Turborama for http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x594751">putting most of this together, please see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x594751">his post in editorial subforum with many more pictures. Please see his post!

Video of the convoy sent to take Benghazi, taken from a dead soliders cell phone (shows how massive the operation was): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwWwOeZqz6M

Sky News went with Gaddafi minders to find a "civilian town bombed" only they were never shown any such thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O5KJavfiQo

TNC presser talking about various details of the revolution (thanks to Waiting for Everyone): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=730234&mesg_id=731532


Videos to bring the Libyan Revolution into context:

The Battle of Benghazi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0vChMDuNd0

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyaPnMnpCAA

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMzwQvcx62s

Tea of Freedom Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD5tu5bJWKc



Latest indiscriminate shelling in Misurata: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wop3C4zrPXI


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x677397">Text of the resolution.

How will a no fly zone work? AJE reports: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWEwehTtK2k

Canada: http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110317/cf-libya-canada/20110317/?hub=WinnipegHome">Canada to send six CF-18s for Libya 'no-fly' mission Norway: http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFOSN00509220110318">Norway to join military intervention in Libya Belgium: http://www.lesoir.be/actualite/monde/2011-03-18/la-belgique-prete-a-une-operation-militaire-en-libye-828970.php">Belgium ready for a military operation in Libya Qatar and the UAE: http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/776/?SID=e80884adc09a37d26904578a9b5978cb">Run-up for Western world’s next military commitment ... with unusual support Denmark: http://www.cphpost.dk/news/international/89-international/51229-denmark-ready-for-action-against-gaddafi.html">Denmark ready for action against Gaddafi France: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/19/world/africa/19libya.html?src=twrhp">Following U.N. Vote, France Vows Libya Action ‘Soon’ Italy: http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFLDE72G2HE20110317">Italy to make bases available for Libya no-fly zone-source United Kingdom: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12770467">Libya: UK forces prepare after UN no-fly zone vote United States: http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/nations-draw-up-plans-for-no-fly-zone-over-libya-1.2765122">Nations draw up plans for no-fly zone over Libya Jordan: http://www.smh.com.au/world/military-strikes-on-libya-within-hours-20110318-1bzii.html?from=smh_sb">Military strikes on Libya 'within hours' Spain: http://english.cri.cn/6966/2011/03/19/2801s627320.htm">Spain Expected to Join NATO No-fly Zone Enforcement over Libya

"One month ago (Western countries) were sooo nice, so nice like pussycats," Saif says in a contemptuous sing-song tone."Now they want to be really aggressive like tigers. (But) soon they will come back, and cut oil deals, contracts. We know this game." - http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2058389,00.html">Saif Gaddafi

(Yeah, Saif, as if you weren't "cutting oil deals, contracts" with western states. Who are the 'tigers' now? Bombing your own people.)

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-10-0">March 10 7:28pm Saif al Islam Gaddafi says "the time has come for full-scale military action" against Libyan rebels. He goes on to say that Libyan forces loyal to his family "will never surrender, even if western powers intervene".

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/02/25/world/middleeast/map-of-how-the-protests-unfolded-in-libya.html">Click here for updated map

Military Installations



Oil Map



http://bit.ly/fe3P">Google Earth DL here to see positions of army and patrolling route of mercenaries

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=212059469427545728757.00049c4df2474b6543347&ll=31.203405,30.058594&spn=96.173452,183.867188&z=3">MAP of Protests across the Middle East

Mohammed Nabbous, killed by Gaddafi's forces while trying to report on the massacre in Benghazi

"I'm not afraid to die, I'm afraid to lose the battle" -Mohammed Nabbous, a month ago when all this began

I'm struggling to come up with something to say about this man. I was not aware of the Libyan uprising until I saw Mo's first report, begging for help, posted here on DU. I was stricken. Here was a man giving everything he had to explain a situation that clearly terrified him, I would not call him a coward in that moment, but you could see the fear in his eyes, and desperation in his voice. For 30 days Nabbous would spend many hours covering the uprising in Benghazi. For many nights I would go to sleep with the webcast of Benghazi live on my computer screen, looking to it occasionally to be sure it was still 'there.' Mo treated the chat room as if we were his friends, and in some way, we were. I never signed up to LiveStream to thank him for all his work and it seems somewhat shallow to do so now, given that I was a lurker for so long. Ever since I took over posting these threads "Libya Alhurra" has been linked as a source of information. It wasn't until last night, when I posted, and twitter posted on Mo's adventures out into Benghazi to try to determine the truth of the situation, that Mo's webchannel became a hit, over 2000 people were watching him stream live. This was curious to him because he'd done many reports like this in the past but he appeared somewhat bemused that the view count exploded as it did. Last night Mo became a star. This is a man who first started out with a webcast replete with fear and desperation finally overcoming that aspect of himself and losing that fear, to become someone who was a fighter for the resistance just as much as those who held the guns. Reporting on the front lines of Benghazi became his final act, and for that he should never, ever be forgotten. I'm so sorry Mo that I never got to know you better.

Mo's first report, which many of you may remember, begging for help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38EXALI60hg

Mo's last report, a fallen hero trying to spread the word to the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecu_iWLn-rg

Mo leaves behind a wife who is with child, she had http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/23/a_bright_voice_from_libyas_darkness">this to say about the No Fly Zone and R2P UN resolution:

We started this in a pure way, but he turned it bloody. Thousands of our men, women, and children have died. We just wanted our freedom, that's all we wanted, we didn't want power. Before, we could not do a single thing if it was not the way he wanted it. All we wanted was freedom. All we wanted was to be free. We have paid with our blood, with our families, with our men, and we're not going to give up. We are still going to do that no matter what it takes, but we need help. We want to do this ourselves, but we don't have the weapons, the technology, the things we need. I don't want anyone to say that Libya got liberated by anybody else. If NATO didn't start moving when they did, I assure you, I assure you, half of Benghazi if not more would have been killed. If they stop helping us, we are going to be all killed because he has no mercy anymore.

[joshcryer]

1. Current time in Libya, 12:22am Monday, March 28

[joshcryer]

43. Corrected link to Libya Live Blog:

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-28

[bobbolink]

2. Thanks for that photo of the women! Young, old...all beautiful.

Once again, I got to be the first rec. Hurrah for my team!

But more, Hurray for Team Cryer/Niner! :applause:

[pinboy3niner]

3. K&R

:hi:

[joshcryer]

4. Obama labors to answer Libya critics

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110327/pl_afp/libyaconflictus_20110327194518">Obama labors to answer Libya critics
"It was not a vital national interest to the United States, but it was an interest," Gates told ABC's "This Week" program.

"There was another piece of this though, that certainly was a consideration. You've had revolutions on both the east and the west of Libya," he said, noting that refugees fleeing Libya could overwhelm Tunisia and Egypt.

"So you had a potentially significantly destabilizing event taking place in Libya that put at risk potentially the revolutions in both Tunisia and Egypt."

"Egypt is central to the future of the Middle East," Gates added.

[Tx4obama]

5. March 27 map

Edited to change link to the Libya crisis in maps: Day by day http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12860014

[bobbolink]

7. So the revolutionaries are definitely close to Sirte now. Any news, predicitions how well they

are prepared?

I haven't heard anything about the coalition "softening up" Sirte.....?

[CJvR]

33. Very poorly.

There was mentioned the figure of 20.000 man for the garrison size. There is a big airbase south of the city, that at least will have been bombed. Even if most of that force went to Bengazi a few battalions can hold the city forever against an irregular opponent backed by airpower unwilling to bomb it.

Ultimately if the loyalist's morale hold and civilians stay calm the rebels are not going to go anywhere any time soon.

[pinboy3niner]

6. Mother of Eman al-Obeidi says she is 'very proud' of her daughter

AJE reports:

More on the brave woman who broke into the hotel in Tripoli to tell her story. Her mother reportedly told journalists that the woman was offered money and a house to change her story.






http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-28

[pinboy3niner]

8. CNN: Thousands march in support of Eman al-Obeidi in Benghazi

CNN just got video in and aired it.

I'll try to post a link when they post the vid on their website.

[pinboy3niner]

25. CNN VIDEO of Benghazi rally for EMAN AL-OBEIDI:

Scroll and click on the video title:

Benghazi rally supports Libyan woman (1:33)
http://edition.cnn.com/video/

[joshcryer]

31. Holy shit! Women and men MARCHING TOGETHER! Freedom bitches!

[joshcryer]

9. Mother of Libyan woman in rape-claim case says she is ‘very proud’ of her daughter

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/libyan-woman-offers-glimpse-into-workings-of-gaddafi-government/2011/03/26/AFNppLkB_story.html">Mother of Libyan woman in rape-claim case says she is ‘very proud’ of her daughter
“They said they will give her a new house and a lot of money and anything she wanted,” Modeer said, adding that Ahmed had relayed the message to her daughter by phone but that Obaidi had refused.

“She said, ‘I will die rather than change my words,’ ” Modeer said.

But government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim said that he had talked to Obaidi by telephone and that it turned out she knew her assailants. He described her as a divorced mother who earned an income “having parties with men” and said the rape occurred after the men she was with tried to force her to drink whiskey and beat her up.

One of them was the son of a high-ranking government official, Ibrahim said, but otherwise there were no political implications to what he called a “criminal” case.

[bobbolink]

10. Is any of this story reaching USian media?

[Tx4obama]

13. CNN was talking about it a little while ago. n/t

[strategery blunder]

14. The article linked from the AJE live blog is to the Washington Post

Also, a CNN camera was smashed as journalists tried to protect her from the government minders, so CNN is probably reporting the story as well (probably, I do not have cable to be 100% certain of that).

[bobbolink]

19. Thanks, Tx4Obama just mentioned CNN, so your guess was right. I will probably be able to see that

later.

Glad to hear the Washington Post is getting it, but... it needs to be BROADLY told! This one could be huge!

Seriously, I don't think a lot of people are interested in hearing all the facts like this... they just want to condemn the effort and stop at that. :(

I have been thinking how incredable this woman is, and whether I would have the courage to do the same.

[strategery blunder]

23. I've been following these threads, lurking

They take a heavy investment of time to read, let alone keep updated. Big kudos to joshcryer, niner, and everyone else who has contributed :hi:

Sadly, there are a lot of DUers who would rather have kneejerk reactions than spend 2-3 hours a day reading these threads to keep updated. My default position is always going to be anti-war, but when Gaddafi amassed tanks and heavy artillery outside Benghazi, vowed on state television to purge the city house to house with no mercy, and then began indiscriminately shelling the city, there really were no options left. Other than looking the other way as a lunatic dictator started killing hundreds of thousands of his own people, of course. Though I do not like war (and opposed the Iraq war from the beginning), I still must evaluate the facts of each individual case.

How soon do those who do not keep track of these news threads forget that night. Alternatively, "Gaddafi has been anti-US in the past, therefore he must be good!"

[bobbolink]

26. Warm welcome to these daily threads! I have no knowledge to impart on these threads, but it has

become my refuge.

I can tell you that NONE of us came to this position easily! I have protested war, nuclear weapos and injustice all my adult life. If you had told me 5 years ago that this would have been my stand on this, I would have asked you to just put me out of my misery right then.

This is agonizing!

As I keep saying... living history is so different because we don't know the outcome. We can't flip to the back of the book. We can't know right now if this was truly the best idea... but all we have to go on says that it is.

If we're wrong, we will admit it. Unlike those who take great delight now in calling us "war mongers".

"How soon do those who do not keep track of these news threads forget that night."

What I see is not forgetting.. it is nothing except DENIAL.

Kinda like what we have jeered at the RW for years now.

Just sad. Tragic.

I think there is going to be a jump in human mental and emotional evolution that will come from this. I hope to hell that is right.

Welcome, and please make yourself known here... this is a good bunch of people. :toast:

[joshcryer]

28. Gaddafi's crimes are only beginning to surface.

If he disappeared all of those people who rose up in Az Zawiya and the working class parts of Tripoli, the numbers are going to shock the world.

[defendandprotect]

108. Wonder if he has been as inclined to keep "records/docs" as Mubarak + officials were?

[Iterate]

37. If it keeps up much longer,

Skinner & Co. may want to spin off part of DU as a news aggregation service. In fact, it's surprising how many searches point right back to these threads.

You made me realize that others in DU, upset as they may be, are the ones watching over all of the other 1000 topics and events, and without them it wouldn't be possible to spend as much time here. Then we'd all be hopelessly overwhelmed.

Thanks to all of DU!

[bobbolink]

42. Searches point here? wow...really?

Cryer/Niner Daily Investigator.

I love the way you turn everything on its head. 1000 DU threads babysitters. :rofl:

[pinboy3niner]

20. CNN reports: LIBYAN GOVT SAYS EMAN AL-OBEIDI HAS BEEN RELEASED

See Post #17.

[joshcryer]

11. The BBC's Ben Brown in Ras Lanuf says: "It's been a remarkable day for the rebels."

1703: The BBC's Ben Brown in Ras Lanuf says: "It's been a remarkable day for the rebels. After seizing Ajdabiya, they have advanced westwards alsong the coastal highway at breakneck speed. Town after town as fallen to them - Brega, Ugayla, Ras Lanuf and Bin Jawad. It has been hard at times for us to keep up with them. The rebels are in a state of high excitement, exhilarated. They can hardly believe the progress they have made. They have been firing their guns into the air in celebration, blaring their horns, screeching their tires and doing wheel-spins. But the truth is that they never would have made this breakthrough if it had not been for the devastating coalition air strikes outside Ajdabiya on Thursday and Friday. They destroyed dozens of Col Gaddafi's tanks, armoured vehicles and artillery pieces. The rebels claim that on Monday they could be in Sirte - Col Gaddafi's birthplace and heartland. Yet, the closer they advance towards Tripoli, the more of a fight the regime is likely to put up. Today may have been the easy part."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418

[tabatha]

12. Libya crisis: Five brothers who tell the human side of Gaddafi's war

The doctors at Benghazi's Al Hawari hospital have no real idea how to prepare Ali Senusi for the news that awaits him when he is finally brought out of sedation in Bed No 2 of the intensive care unit.

First, the 26-year-old Libyan will be told that he has lost his left leg, the result of an emergency amputation after it was shredded by a shell during Colonel Gaddafi's siege of the nearby town of Ajdabiyah.

Then, depending on how he copes, will come the rest of the story, which will put his own plight into grim perspective.

Lying over in Bed 8, he will learn, is his brother Abdelbaset, 19, who has lost not one leg but two.

Up on floor three, meanwhile, is his brother, Illafy, 23, who has lost an arm.

Finally, he will be told about his other brothers Ezzat, 33, and Saif, 29, who rest not in hospital beds but in a morgue.

The fate of the five Senussi brothers gives a snapshot of the appalling human cost now being paid as Colonel Gaddafi continues to turn the cities in Libya's rebel-held east into urban battlegrounds.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8408393/Libya-crisis-Five-brothers-who-tell-the-human-side-of-Gaddafis-war.html

[bobbolink]

21. ...........

:cry:

Thanks, Tabatha. Excellently written story... good find.

[tabatha]

22. Unbelievably sad.

I pray every day (well, wish) that it is all over sooner than later. And that the result is good.

And now, I am off again for a while.

[bobbolink]

24. Yes, I pray for them... that they are strong, and keep their values intact, etc.

I know I'm supposed to pray for my enemies, too, but I just can't bring myself to pray for the G family.

My bad.

[tabatha]

92. wrong reply

deleted

[defendandprotect]

111. Ajdabiyah -- the toll must be monstrous there --

I've lost track a bit of these cities taken and retaken again -- but

certain Ajdabiyah is notable!

How sad the fate of these brothers -- !!

If the protesters succeed in toppling Gaddafi and bringing him to some kind of justice

and recovering their nation, they will have done so because so many Libyans have risked

so much -- given so much -- to free their nation from Gaddafi.

[bobbolink]

143. There is no real justice for those atrocities, but if its true he's been shot....

Then there might at least be the trial that we didn't get with *!

There really is nothing they can do to him that in any way balances the scales.

[Tx4obama]

15. GRAPHIC VIDEO: a home that was bombed in Libya

0:17am

Video sent in to Al Jazeera showing a home that was bombed in Libya. Details are unclear, but images are disturbing.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-28#update-20386

WARNING VERY GRAPHIC VIDEO!

[defendandprotect]

112. "Bombed" -- what a simple word -- with such complicated results ... torn bodies, babies gone --

[highplainsdem]

16. K&R

[pinboy3niner]

17. CNN: Libyan govt says it has released Eman al-Obeidi

The Libyan woman who stormed into the Tripoli hotel Saturday to tell foreign reporters that government troops raped her has been released, government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim told reporters at a news conference Sunday.


http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/27/libya.woman.attack.cnn/index.html#

[kenny blankenship]

27. I will believe she's been released when she is free to speak to reporters

and to let them know where she is and how she is. So far I have seen no indication that she has been able to tell the world herself that she has been released. She may be out of prison but still under threat if she speaks or appears.

[joshcryer]

30. Same.

[tabatha]

18. And thanks for the awesome jobs by Turborama, and Cryer/Niner

with some awesome posts by others, too.

These threads really represent an excellent part of DU.

The posts are substantive, timely, relevant and sincere, much like the broadcasts of Mo.

[defendandprotect]

114. LIBYA HURRA !!!

[druidity33]

29. K&R. nt.

[pinboy3niner]

32. Libya: Nato agrees to strike at Gaddafi's forces on the ground

Source: The Guardian

Libya: Nato agrees to strike at Gaddafi's forces on the ground


Allies agree to hand over complete control of military campaign but Germany and Turkey still have reservations


Ian Traynor in Brussels and Julian Borger guardian.co.uk, Sunday 27 March 2011 20.39 BST


Nato agreed to take over the air campaign against ground targets in Libya, putting the alliance in command of all operations and supplanting the coalition of the US, France and Britain that has attacked Muammar Gaddafi's forces for the past week.

The 28 ambassadors of Nato's policy-making North Atlantic council met in Brussels to agree the rules of engagement for the air campaign aimed at protecting civilians against Gaddafi's onslaught, with Turkey and Germany keen to narrow the scope of the operations and France bristling at any constraints on its more gung-ho approach.

The decision means that Nato will take charge of all three aspects of the Libya campaign – enforcing a no-fly zone and arms embargo as well as prosecuting the air campaign on ground targets. The decision, capping a week of squabbling over Nato's role, came in advance of a conference in Londonon Tuesday bringing together more than 40 foreign ministers and international organisations aimed at plotting Libya's future.

"Nato allies have decided to take on the whole military operation in Libya," said Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Nato's secretary general. "Nothing more, nothing less. This is a very significant step."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/27/libya-nato-strike-gaddafi-forces

[bobbolink]

36. So the war is now Turkey and Germany vs. France. Have they decided on a shape for the table yet?

:eyes:

[pinboy3niner]

34. I'm taking a break, Josh

I know, I'm such a SLACKER!1!!

But I REALLY need to go to the store. Coffee supplies are dwindling, fast--and I've been rinsing and re-using my last filter for two days! :(

Oh, yeah...I probably ought to get some FOOD, too. :)

Back later... :hi:

[MedleyMisty]

35. *hugs*

Take care of yourself. And yeah - get some food! :)

[joshcryer]

40. Enjoy pinboy3niner, I just came back, news is so slow around this time.

I almost envy you for being around when the news is getting good. :D :hi:

[Turborama]

38. K&R & Thanks a lot for the shout-out & thank you to anyone who rec'd that OP

Can you do me a fave, though?

The second BBC vid needs retitling to...

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 2

;-)

I am going to watch them now.

Thanks again for all the hard work you, pinboy and all the other contributors to these threads are putting in to help keep DU as up to date as humanly possible with what's happening in Libya.

:hi:

[joshcryer]

41. Doh, editing time expired, I wonder how I overlooked that, at least the links work.

And the shoutout is well deserved, your actions in LBN are heroic to say the least.

[Bluerthanblue]

39. K&R

great links!

thank you!

[joshcryer]

44. Collage of images from Libya, with the World Cup official song (Waving Flag):

Libya : We are Libya We are with you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHirtBE08Tg

Beautiful.

[MedleyMisty]

51. Sent the link to ChangeLibya on Twitter

Got a retweet. :) Oh man - I'm about to cry.

Saw someone wearing a shirt from the LibyaGear site in there. :) Linking it again for any new readers - http://www.libyagear.com/online-store.php

Submitted the Marchin' On video to BoingBoing and Digg, trying to get it more views. Here's the link, for anyone reading the thread who hasn't seen it yet - it's beautiful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixwx_B38678

One more music video - a Libyan rap song named Calling Tripoli. In Arabic with English subtitles - http://alive.in/libya/2011/03/23/song-tripoli-is-calling-english-subtitles/

[joshcryer]

52. Ha! I saw that retweet live (was watching ChangeInLibya)! :)

Very cool, didn't know that was you.

[joshcryer]

45. bencnn tweets:

http://twitter.com/#!/bencnn

[joshcryer]

46. Syria is not immune. Nowhere is. Not in the Arab world. Not ANYWHERE. Dictators & tyrants will learn

@bencnn
benwedeman
Syria is not immune. Nowhere is. Not in the Arab world. Not ANYWHERE. Dictators and tyrants will learn the lesson the hard way. #Jan25
25 Mar via web

http://twitter.com/#!/bencnn/status/51311200432160768

[joshcryer]

47. I lived in Syria for six years. Wonderful people. Beautiful country. Repressive regime.

@bencnn
benwedeman
I lived in Syria (Damascus and Aleppo) for six years. Wonderful people. Beautiful country. Repressive regime. #Syria #Jan25
25 Mar via we

http://twitter.com/#!/bencnn/status/51312171694563329

[joshcryer]

48. CNN's team in Tripoli just heard at least 4 loud explosions followed by ant-aircraft fire

@SalmaCNN
Salma Abdelaziz
CNN's team in Tripoli just heard at least 4 loud explosions followed by ant-aircraft fire in the city.
2 minutes ago

http://twitter.com/#!/SalmaCNN/status/52169214085169152

[Swede]

49. K&R

nt

[joshcryer]

50. Saif al-Islam Gaddafi seeking immunity (wants to run a "new democracy")

http://aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=24660">Saif al-Islam Gaddafi seeking immunity
sources have informed Asharq Al-Awsat that Libyan leader Colonel Gaddafi is seeking to convince the coalition forces to accept a deal that is being secretly discussed between Gaddafi delegates and a number of Arab and American parties. This deal would see Gaddafi stepping down from power, only to be replaced by his son Saif al-Islam, with a deadline being put in place for a peaceful transition of power.

A well-informed Libyan source told Asharq Al-Awsat that Saif al-Islam Gaddafi has held a number of secret meetings with officials in the French and British governments, discussing the idea of his replacing his father for a transitional period of between 2 – 3 years, in return for a comprehensive ceasefire and negotiating with the anti-Gaddafi rebels.

The sources also revealed that Saif al-Islam Gaddafi is pushing for assurances that Colonel Gaddafi and his family will be granted immunity from prosecution, and will not be legally punished in any manner.

The sources revealed that Saif al-Islam Gaddafi's plan would see him take over control of Libya from his father during a transitional period during which Libya would transform from a revolutionary state to a democratic state that enjoys public and economic freedoms.

Wow. No words.

[joshcryer]

53. Been mulling this. The revolutionaries should accept if shared power is done.

If Gaddafi is willing to step down and Saif is willing to share power with a member of the revolutionary group in order to usher in a new democratic constitution and referendum, it should be done.

However, I don't think Saif would go for that.

[Tx4obama]

56. No way! Here's a link below with a video regarding the Gaddafis

It covers the orders that Saadi Gaddahi gave in Benghazi.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x567185

ALL of the Gaddifis need to go - and go now!

[pinboy3niner]

58. +100

They ALL must go. :toast:


:hi:

[joshcryer]

60. I have that linked in the thread! I have seen it!

I think I may have had a lapse in judgment. The coming march on Sirte is really worrying me. Before there were talks of safe passage, but Gaddafi appears to have it locked down now (and he has no problem using his own people as hostages).

[bobbolink]

I couldn't imagine that scenario either.. in fact, I posted NO! NO! NO! but it didn't "take".

However, when it comes to the revolution in Libya, I'm not the brightest bulb, so I am willing to hear what Josh says.

I'm glad to know someone else had the same reaction.

[joshcryer]

62. I think it was a lapse in judgment, not thinking it through fully.

[Tx4obama]

64. It is understandable. You've been working hard here on DU, & probably not getting enough rest n/t

[joshcryer]

68. 4-5 hours during the week days, I got a lot of sleep this weekend (sorry pinboy3niner!)

[pinboy3niner]

73. No sweat, Josh

Besides having now turned dozing at my desk into something of an art form (my 'catnips,' as you call them, lol!), I actually had 2 pretty good sleep periods recently. I don't begrudge you at all what little sleep you're able to get. Besides, we need you in good shape to do the OP's. (And you're doing an absolutely wonderful job!) :toast:

I just popped in for a few posts--haven't been to the store yet, so I'm heading out in a few. After a long, hot shower, I feel like a new man! :)

:hi:

[pinboy3niner]

57. The council would never go for that

As much as they want the bloodshed to end, they would never accept Saif anywhere NEAR the new Libyan government. Remember also that he has connections in the military--if not directly, then through the connections of his brothers. He would be a constant danger.

[joshcryer]

59. True enough. I'm getting tired of this.

I should strengthen my resolve.

[bobbolink]

63. I admire your peacefulness and sense of fair play, Josh. this is new territory for all of us.

I think that I may have a different reaction, because as a woman who was victim of domestic violence, I know a bit about the tricks of bullies and perps.

[joshcryer]

I live in the ghetto and have been "had" before.

Once had someone steal a pack of smokes because he asked if I had a spare one and I pulled my pack out, he bolted with it. Hasn't stopped me from continuing to hand out spares whenever asked, though. Take people at their word. But yeah, Saif should not be taken at his word as a "reformer" and I was really lame to suggest it could work.

[MedleyMisty]

70. You are not lame!

You're a good person, looking for a way out of this and to stop the killing and violence. Nothing wrong with that.

Not sure if this is really the official NTC site, but it looks like it may be. And here's a statement from them where they demand that the ICC put out warrants for the entire Gaddafi family - http://ntclibya.org/english/statement-regarding-eman-al-obaidi/

We urge the Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Mr. Luis Moreno-Ocampo, to immediately issue international arrest warrants against Gaddafi, his family, and all associates who are guilty of War Crimes. The world has now witnessed incontrovertible evidence of the level of brutality committed by Gaddafi and his security apparatus across the Libyan country, sufficient for the International Criminal Court now to act to save innocent civilians.

We promise no respite for Gaddafi, his thugs and mercenaries, who for 42 years have systematically terrorised, kidnapped, raped, tortured, and killed the innocent children, women and men of Libya.

Dr. Ali Abdul Aziz Al Isawi,
Foreign Secretary
Interim National Council – Libya

Yeah - I don't think the Libyans are going to accept anything less than death or the ICC for any of the Gaddafis.

[bobbolink]

77. Josh, its OK, in fact it is preferable, to have a soft heart.

We in this society are so enamored by "tough", and that isn't what makes for peace.

You have somehow resisted letting your heart get hardened, and that is a blessing.

You aren't in a position to control whether any of the Gs has any power in the future, so your unhardened heart isn't going to do any harm there. ^_^

I hope you can be easy on yourself. Just like with this current struggle, we can't know it all, and only in hindsight will we know whether this no fly zone was the right thing to do. In that same way, you can't possibly see all angles at the same time. Just can't be done.

I don't care what the rest of them say, You Are OK!! :rofl:

[defendandprotect]

117. No !!! Good Heavens --- NO!!

[kenny blankenship]

54. I was just wondering about him.

I thought it was clever of "Dad" to have his son delivering most of his bloodiest threats. It forecloses on Junior's ability to put himself forward as an acceptable leader to Libyans in revolt and to the international community. Many a King has been deposed by his son. Now they want to put Saif forward while the old ogre still lives - how would that be a better govt? He'd still obey his father's wishes and take the ogre's advice.

[joshcryer]

55. He loves to paint himself as a reformer, there were a lot of sickening Amanpour interviews...

...where he 'lamented' not reforming sooner and so on. Of course it's all lies and hypocrisy, he's not a reformer and never intended to reform, merely manipulate the public. Which is why I couldn't go for this unless there was a power sharing done until the transition was complete and the people of Libya could vote for someone they truly believe had their interests at heart.

[joshcryer]

61. Libyan govt insists coalition air strikes injuring & killing civilians, they hv shown us no evidence

@NicRobertsonCNN
Nic Robertson
For the record, Libyan govt insists coalition air strikes injuring & killing civilians. For the record, they hv shown us no evidence of this
20 minutes ago

http://twitter.com/#!/NicRobertsonCNN/status/52180141182418944

[bobbolink]

65. Yeah, well, tell that to the DU majority, Nic!

:(

[kenny blankenship]

71. They'll get it right eventually.

Coalition airstrikes have been hitting quite a lot of Gaddafy's military infrastructure, to degrade his ability to resupply forces in the field. Most of these attacks we're hearing nothing or very little about,-other than the occasional correspondent standing in front of some dimly swaying palms, saying "Oooh I just heard several distant thuds of bombs detonating, and then the antiaircraft guns started up again". The coalition doesn't release much information about what they're hitting. As the list of intact military facilities and storehouses dwindles, the chances of any particular one of them getting hit on a given day increases. Sooner or later, Gaddafy is going to cram some civilians into one of these places, either some idiot volunteers or else captives - perhaps political prisoners detained during the demonstrations- and it will get hit by bombs.

[joshcryer]

72. That's what I'm expecting, too. I think he has a lot of people holed up somewhere.

Either they will be placed in bombing sites or they will be used as hostages in some other way. When this thing is over I think naysayers are finally going to recognize what a tyrant Gaddafi was.

[bobbolink]

75. Very astute. I wasn't thinnking that far ahead. Well, actually, I'm not that diabolical so it

wouldn't occur to me. You have obviously followed his actions, and know what he is capable of.

Just sick. That's what makes it so believable. Its sick.

[kenny blankenship]

82. The Gaddafy regime invited its supporters to park themselves in front of his Bab Al-Azziza residence

I don't know if they are still doing that but I suspect not. Supposedly the supporters got the word that the west was launching missile attacks for real, and they ran off. But next time, Col. Gaddafy could take measures to brace his supporters' courage - like locking the doors on them in some site that's likely to be bombed. I don't doubt he is capable of such an act, the question for him would be operational - how to select victims that won't be missed (prisons? orphanages?) and who will look civilian, and how to select a site among those that remain that he could argue was sheltering civilians. That would be his game changer.

[bobbolink]

84. I dare you to OP this on GD. ^_^

This is quickly approaching something worse than even a movie.

"how to select victims that won't be missed (prisons? orphanages?) "

Crucial. Maybe this is partly why revolutionaries have been locating and emptying prisons???

Although it couldn't be political prisoners, as they ARE missed!

[pinboy3niner]

66. Air raids hit Gadhafi stronghold of Sirte in Libya

Source: AP

Air raids hit Gadhafi stronghold of Sirte in Libya

AP foreign, Sunday March 27 2011

Ryan Lucas


RAS LANOUF, Libya (AP) — International air raids targeted Moammar Gadhafi's hometown of Sirte for the first time Sunday night as rebels quickly closed in on the regime stronghold, a formidable obstacle that must be overcome for government opponents to reach the capital Tripoli.

A heavy bombardment of Tripoli also began after nightfall, with at least nine loud explosions and anti-aircraft fire heard, an Associated Press reporter in the city said.

Earlier in the day, rebels regained two key oil complexes along the coastal highway that runs from the opposition-held eastern half of the country toward Sirte and beyond that, to the capital. Moving quickly westward, the advance retraced their steps in the first rebel march toward the capital. But this time, the world's most powerful air forces have eased the way by pounding Gadhafi's military assets for the past week.

Sirte is strategically located about halfway between the rebel-held east and the Gadhafi-controlled west along the Mediterranean coast. It is a bastion of support for Gadhafi that will be difficult for the rebels to overrun and the entrances to the city have reportedly been mined. If the rebels could somehow overcome Sirte, momentum for a march on the capital would skyrocket.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9567284

[joshcryer]

67. Women of Libya shout: WE ARE ALL EMAN! (in Arabic but you can understand that part)

&ArticleGuid

[joshcryer]

69. Inside Gaddafi's brutal prison: Ghaith Abdul-Ahad's Libyan ordeal

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/25/inside-gaddafis-brutal-prison?CMP=twt_gu">Inside Gaddafi's brutal prison: Ghaith Abdul-Ahad's Libyan ordeal
We ran into Gaddafi's troops on the outskirts of Zawiya, less than a mile beyond the last signs of rebel activity: a destroyed checkpoint, a bullet-ridden building and five burnt-out cars.

The soldiers were blocking the main highway to the coast with pickup trucks and armoured vehicles, so our driver took to the desert, skirting the roadblock in a wide arc before cutting back to the road. He was edgy after that, spooked even by the sight of a distant abandoned car parked in the middle of the road.

We – the Brazilian journalist Andrei Netto and I, travelling in the company of rebels from western Libya – would not be able reach Zawiya that night as planned. Instead we made for Sabratha, 12 miles to the west.

It was clear that Sabratha had been reclaimed by Gaddafi loyalists. The police and intelligence service buildings were charred, but they had new green flags of the regime flying above them.

[MedleyMisty]

76. Al Qaeda is indeed the world's Keyser Soze

One guard in particular – a tall man with rimless spectacles whose civilian clothes implied rank – spoke the most. "All the people we are capturing are al-Qaida infiltrators," he said at one point. "Al-Qaida are beheading civilians, burning them and eating their hearts."

I will never believe another word I hear about Al Qaeda. It's all propaganda. For all the world's dictators. Screw them.

[bobbolink]

78. Gives a whole new meaning to the term "Eat Your Heart Out".

They must have a lot of fun thinking up this shit.

Hey, JOSH! I think we know who is REALLY drinking the hallucinogenic Nescafe! ^_^

Take it away, Josh! :hi:

[joshcryer]

74. Libyan govt spokesman says #Eman released but no one here will believe it until we see her

@NicRobertsonCNN
Nic Robertson
Just to be clear: Libyan govt spokesman says #Eman Al Obeidi was released but no one here will believe it until we are allowed to see her.
1 minute ago

http://twitter.com/#!/NicRobertsonCNN/status/52192156907077634

[Lithos]

79. Rumors are that Sirte has been liberated

If confirmed to be true, major, major victory for the rebels.

L-

[bobbolink]

80. !!! Where is the rumor from? Perspiring minds need to know. ^_^

Thanks!

[Lithos]

81. Twitterverse

There are reports from Libyans (both there and expats) who are hearing those comments come out of Benghazi. Supposedly the point of origination for the announcement from Benghazi was a Facebook post (arabic) from someone directly associated with the FF.

On Edit: Reuters is now quoting a Rebel spokesman as saying Sirte has been liberated.

On Edit: AJE is also saying the same thing.

L-

[Cerridwen]

85. AJE and Reuters reporting the same via "rebel" spokesman (edit 3)

democraticiran
Aljazeera English now confirms SIRTE WAS LIBERATED TONIGHT
#Libya


SultanAlQassemi
Breaking BBC Arabic: Libyan opposition spokesman says that town of Sirt has fallen in the hands of the opposition.
#Libya

democraticiran
Radio France now confirms SIRTE liberated
#Libya


Libya_United
OH ! AJA announce it now ...
#Benghazi
celebrating entrance of
#Sirte
.
#Feb17
#Libya


democraticiran
live stream AJE
http://is.gd/2...
SIRTE update +++
#Libya

[Yosarian71]

87. The flight in the afternoon makes sense

They were probably family of regime members. Gadhafi regime is on the ropes now if this is true. They should be very focused on cutting a deal in the next few days. Without Sirte, the chances of a stalemate go way down and the writing is on the wall.

I expect the rats to abandon ship in the next few days. The Gadhafi family and the top officials can buy their safety. Those that followed orders will not be as lucky if they don't switch sides soon.

[joshcryer]

90. If Sirte fell that means Misrata can be liberated, and Tripoli will rejoice.

Believe me, there are going to be thousands in Tripoli who come out to welcome the revolutionaries, I promise! There was a serious crackdown by Gaddafi.

However, the rebels are well known for spinning tall tells of their victories so I'm waiting for a solid confirm on this, could come any minute now of course.

[Yosarian71]

124. Revolutionaries should skip Misrata

Send the main thrust of their troops straight through the hills to Tripoli. Don't get bogged down in vicious street fighting 200 miles away from the prize. I would expect that the rebels approaching Tripoli would cause widespread uprisings among the surrounding cities and potential inspire an uprising in Tripoli before too many of the youth of that city are imprisoned. Misrata can survive a few days longer.

I am going to guess that the rebel "army" right now is probably about 500 to 1,000 men in cars with guns racing up the coastline. Not exactly an overwhelming military force, but I imagine as they continue to succeed and approach Tripoli their ranks will grow. The rebels need to send whatever military they have in the east up the coast ASAP, especially if Sirte has fallen.

[joshcryer]

127. Street fights are easily dealt with, it only took three days to purge Benghazi.

It's all about sheer numbers, there aren't as many shooters as there are revolutionaries.

Misrata is a pivotal point, it may have its electricity and water turned off, but it is home to 300-500k Libyans, a good, very large portion of which are hungry and eager to get revenge on Gaddafi's forces. That should be nurtured and used, not abandoned. By showing that they are a force of liberation and not a force of violence they can win even more hearts and minds.

[joshcryer]

88. Still waiting for a solid confirm, but this is looking good.

[bobbolink]

93. Reutes and Aljazeera aren't confirmation??

What reporting is needed?

Please...I'm half-way to a celebration here... ^_^

[joshcryer]

95. Well, look at Ajdabiya, reporters were saying "rebels claim" until they actually got there.

Then the reporters went from "rebels claim" to "I can definitely say that this is the case."

But yes it's extraordinarily good news. What the rebels don't want however is a Benghazi-style trap where snipers hid in homes and sprung loose to shoot them as they walk about freely.

[bobbolink]

98. You're right, of course. I was just ready to celebrate. ^_^

I'm still naive enough to think that when Reuters and Aljazeera report it, it is confirmed.

See? I'm not the brightest bulb on this block.. :(

I have hope, anyway.... LIbya Hurra!

[joshcryer]

102. It's looking increasingly likely but yeah.

:hug:

[Lithos]

115. Seeing more indirect confirmation

But yeah, most of it is based on the original single announcement.

L-

[Cerridwen]

119. Common reaction of survivors of abuse and/or brainwashing.

No longer trust anyone much less themselves. US citizenry respond to ANY news as lies. Have not moved on to trust themselves while confirming information; no longer know how, if they ever did know how to trust; but verify.

"We" do not trust those reporting "from the ground" if they are not "experts" and/or "trusted authority" figures.

It is part of the "Bush Legacy."

People learned their gov't lied and the media aided and abetted those lies. Entire lifetime of trust destroyed. The 5 Stages of Grief collide with surviving abuse.

Vast swaths of US citizens woke up to the fact that what was ridiculed and joked about and denied as the "vast right-wing conspiracy" was in fact, a vast right-wing conspiracy.

Every "sacred" truth is now called into question.

"If only I'd known" they say. "If only someone would have told me." Ahhhh, if only they'd listened rather than ridiculed.

[joshcryer]

123. It's more that I know the revolutionaries are known to lie and exaggerate.

They're kids, poor kids, at that.

Bin Jawad was the final run for them and they "took it," and lost it, simultaneously. They wound up running back to Benghazi. Their whole initial "push" was little more than youth driving across the countryside unimpeeded.

[Cerridwen]

132. It wasn't a personal attack nor was it aimed at you, Josh.

It was an observation of why we, in the US, are so distrusting at this time in our history.

I get that a whole bunch of young men pumped up on adrenaline are going "victory" happy. I also know which people on twitter I've seen consistently report information that takes hours, days, and on a few occasions, weeks to confirm, but they are confirmed eventually.

It may be that there is still some clean-up to do in Sirte; much like Misurata. In the interim, it's a great psychological "victory" as it's gaddifi's home town. Watch LY state TV for their response. Confirmation can take days to come out.

We've had a couple of gaddifi apologists/supporters at DU. Let 'em stew in this for a while.

[joshcryer]

134. Oh, oh, absolutely, I wasn't meaning to contest your post. It does ring true.

But here in this context I do have to keep fact checking because these kids are kinda crazy buggers and yeah.

Does not mean I don't support them 100%! I'm liable to exaggerate, myself. "Dang, I just ate 10 pizzas!" (10 slices of pizza!)

[Cerridwen]

135. :) I figured. I just wanted to make sure you knew.

Tensions are high and text on a screen is hard to decipher.

:hi:

[joshcryer]

86. Yeah, I saw that, was going to wait for some confirmations, because Sirte is reportedly...

...heavily guarded with troops.

[MedleyMisty]

89. I'm waiting for confirmation too

Like one of the Libyans said - "I hope that rebel guy isn't trolling the world."

If it is true - I'm still worried that it's a trap.

[Yosarian71]

100. I am curious about the "tactical retreat"

Mercenary/conscript armies do not make tactical retreats in the face of overwhelmingly superior forces. They dissolve. Retreats are one of the most difficult military maneuvers to execute, and are very difficult to reverse. Gadhafi's troops that survived Ajdabiya will know that the moment they reorganize they will get annihilated again. I would be surprised and impressed if Gadhafi's military was actually able to reconstitute any meaningful regular military units in Sirte after what happened in Benghazi and Ajdabiya. Unless there were units already stationed there, I don't think there is an eastern military left.

I would welcome the input of anyone with military experience on this topic.

[joshcryer]

105. I am actually quite surprised that the allies struck Sirte.

I suppose they're being a bit more free with "protect civilians" than I imagined before. This will be argued about for years to come.

[Yosarian71]

116. History is written by the winners

Momentum is building against Gadhafi. The coalition and revolutionaries had to make it clear to Sirte that they would have two choices. Air attacks were the right move. Join the revolution or face devastating air attacks against which they have no defense and would destroy their city. Hundreds of thousands of lives are at stake. No one will debate the methods, within reason, once this murderous tyrant is gone.

It appears the regime folks learned the locals' decision this afternoon and bolted.

[bobbolink]

120. You are posting some really compelling thoughts... i'm learning a lot.

Being solidly anti-war all my adult life, I know noting about strategery.

I can't pull up the quote now, but what you are saying rings true.... the coalition hung back from bombing before, and it was a mistake.. the slaughter was worse.

Thanks for adding your thoughts.... much appreciated!

[Yosarian71]

133. I am 99% anti-war

Wars are tragic, serve little foreign policy purpose and are morally repugnant. But every now and then, history forces our hand. This is one of those times. I am sure it has been discussed elsewhere on this site, but we were able to throw almost 100 years worth of Middle East policy in the toilet when a central Tunisian fruit merchant lit himself on fire right before Christmas. The first half of 2011 will dramatically change the face of this region, and the way the rest of the world interacts with it, potentially for the next 100+ years.

The neocon's goal for the asinine Iraq War was to bring democracy, capitalism and rule of law to the Middle East. It was the height of stupidity to think that a western power could easily impose those things on a Middle Eastern nation. Then came Muhammed Bouazizzi, and now there is an opportunity to go down that road. It is scary, fraught with danger, and will be very messy. But it is absolutely in the interest of the West to do what it can, within reason, to make it happen.

Libya presents the West with the opportunity to help a widespread, popular uprising remove one of the most inhuman dictators of the last 100 years. And the West can do this without risking ground troops. The slaughter was worse because the West held back, but it also seems that the Revolution was not ready to ask for help until it finally asked for help.

[bobbolink]

136. I completely agree with you. My instincts say this is the stepoff into a new era.

That sounds over-the-top, but it is how it feels to me.

Josh got me to thinking about it that way with his discussions of the Responsibility to Protect resolution. That could definitely change how we see things, and how we deal with them.

If this revolution is successful, and it is because of that resolution, I can't help but think that will usher in new discussions about *how* to intervene to protect. There could well be new and more innovative and less invasive ways to go about it, when countries come together and work this out.

[joshcryer]

121. Note of course Sirte never really took sides in this.

They did negotiate for safe passage before the rebels were pushed back by Gaddafi's tanks.

Because they know that they're the "hometown" of Gaddafi they don't want to caught in the crossfire.

[CJvR]

145. It is not a...

...tactical retreat. That means the units retreat in good order with their weapons and units and command intact readdy to resume operations on more favorable ground. The Gaddafi loyalists seems to have totally imploded if they didn't even try to make a stand at Sirte. There are no more units, any weapons heavier than handguns have been thrown away and the chain of command has totally dissolved.

[MedleyMisty]

83. Just to reiterate that this is a global revolution

and that perhaps we should show some solidarity with the Libyans - a tweet I saw about Syria tonight.

explicithandlz

I've seen people eating out of the garbage cans in Damascus, while members of the ruling, lone Government party became billionaires #Syria
18 minutes ago via Twitter for iPad

The tweets from the Libyans about this being the bottom 99% of Libya rising up against the top 1% were from a few days ago, but I will gladly put in the time to go find them again if needed to prove it.

[joshcryer]

91. Air raids hit Gadhafi stronghold of Sirte in Libya

http://www.metronews.ca/ottawa/world/article/814987--libyan-rebels-sweep-west-through-key-oil-centres--page0">Air raids hit Gadhafi stronghold of Sirte in Libya
RAS LANOUF, Libya - International air raids targeted Moammar Gadhafi's hometown of Sirte for the first time Sunday night as rebels quickly closed in on the regime stronghold, a formidable obstacle that must be overcome for government opponents to reach the capital Tripoli.

A heavy bombardment of Tripoli also began after nightfall, with at least nine loud explosions and anti-aircraft fire heard, an Associated Press reporter in the city said.

Earlier in the day, rebels regained two key oil complexes along the coastal highway that runs from the opposition-held eastern half of the country toward Sirte and beyond that, to the capital. Moving quickly westward, the advance retraced their steps in the first rebel march toward the capital. But this time, the world's most powerful air forces have eased the way by pounding Gadhafi's military assets for the past week.

Sirte is strategically located about halfway between the rebel-held east and the Gadhafi-controlled west along the Mediterranean coast. It is a bastion of support for Gadhafi that will be difficult for the rebels to overrun and the entrances to the city have reportedly been mined. If the rebels could somehow overcome Sirte, momentum for a march on the capital would skyrocket.

[tabatha]

96. Sirte has fallen - Reuters

Libyan rebels claim Gadhafi's hometown of Sirte has fallen - Reuters; NBC News in Benghazi reports celebratory gunfire.

http://www.breakingnews.com/

Hope it is true.

[Yosarian71]

104. It will be interesting to see what this actually means

Will Sirte join the revolution? Will they sit it out? Can they be trusted? I have no idea about the tribal politics.

[joshcryer]

106. A key thing is that Sirte was negotiating with the revolutionaries before they started losing ground

...due of course to Gaddafi's tanks and machinery.

Something tells me a negotiation happened here.

If true I predicted it.

[tabatha]

94. Has panic set in?

Translated: Libya State TV guest says Jinn and dead “saints” are fighting for Gaddafi
Posted on March 27, 2011 by admin

Alright, this is absolutely crazy. A “respected” Libyan State TV guest named Yusuf Shakeer explains how the Jinn/Djinn and the dead saints have joined the ranks of Gaddafi and are fighting for him. I have not come across anyone who has translated any of this guy’s crazy speeches before but I took the time to do so to illustrate what is really being shown on Libyan TV. I leave you with the video and translation below. The translation begins from 19 seconds in:

http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/03/translated-libya-tv-guest-says-jinn-and-saints-fight-for-gaddafi/

[joshcryer]

97. "they will swallow the Japanese nuclear radiation" W.T.F.

[defendandprotect]

99. Thank you for the acknowledgment of the women of Libya -- !!!

Lovely -- :)

[joshcryer]

101. It was too long of a time coming, to be honest, they were degraded and slandered here...

...and finally I found an article that supported them. I was actually planning to do this but Turborama beat me, so I used a bit of his material to make the OP easier on me.

[defendandprotect]

103. Well done -- by both of you -- !!

[tabatha]

110. Second that.

[inna]

107. yes to the revolution, no to the intervention

[MedleyMisty]

109. What else would you have proposed?

I am asking that honestly, not to be all rhetorical and mean. It's just - looking at it I can't see any other way that the revolution could succeed, so if you could think of a realistic way, with the world's current society and current tools, for the Libyans to win without us helping I would be glad to hear it. Taking into account the fact that the Libyans themselves are perfectly fine with the intervention.

I find it amusing that most of the Arabic people I follow on Twitter are okay with the intervention and get really annoyed with the self-righteous Americans who say that the Libyans should have to live and die by the American left's ideals.

[inna]

113. utterly ridiculous to suggest that MIC is pro-revolution

not trying to be mean, either - i simply know the history of prior American "interventions".

[joshcryer]

118. Yeah, and installing states really has worked out well for us in the Arab world.

Sickening. :puke:

[bobbolink]

122. "Generals are always fighting the last war." So, also, are observers, obviously.

If Sirte has indeed landed in the hands of the revolutionaries, this is great news, and nothing is going to detract from that.

[joshcryer]

125. Especially because it sends a big signal, it could not happen without internal support.

The Gaddafi troops that were "reported" in Sirte may well have been for the media only. That's why 20 trucks left Sirte. The Sirte leaders simply did not want anything to do with Gaddafi's bullshit and sent them riding.

[MedleyMisty]

131. I know the history too

I also know that this was not an American idea, that we were one of the last countries to be brought into the talks about it. I have been keeping up with the Libyan revolution since it started over a month ago, and have watched events develop.

I think it's useful to keep the past in mind and to be cautious, but I don't think the past should blind us to the current reality. Which is that the Libyans wanted the no fly zone, that the impetus for the UN resolution came from France, not the US, and that it was a French professor, who does not share Sarkozy's politics and who says that Sarkozy knows he doesn't vote for him, who went to Benghazi and talked to the national transitional government and then recommended the intervention to Sarkozy. His motivation seems to have been saving the good guys, not oil or profit.

I read Susan Rice's statement that her motivation was preventing another atrocity like Rwanda. I read about General Ham getting emotional and talking about legitimate targets not being hit for fear of hitting civilians.

I think there are a lot of motivations here, that there are people who are doing it for good reasons and that there are other people who do want to take advantage of it for their own profit - if they can.

I don't really care though - what matters to me is the Libyan people, who wanted the NFZ. The NTC asked for it. The Libyans on Twitter spread around a petition for it, which got 1.1 million signatures. They have repeatedly said that they wanted it, that they are grateful for it. They have also said that if anyone tries to impose a puppet government they will fight like hell, and I believe them. You don't go through this much trauma to win your freedom and then give it up.

I notice you did not suggest a way that the Libyans could have won against Gaddafi's superior weaponry and the mercenaries that he flew in without help. You do realize that they are so poorly armed that there's a video of a man taking a plastic gun to the frontlines, and a story about a young man who was extremely surprised that he took down a Gaddafi airplane on his first use of an anti-aircraft gun?

To paraphrase Rumsfeld - you have to live in the world you have, not the one you want. And use the tools of the world you have to create the world you want.

I would prefer to not spend so much on our military. I would prefer to not have the biggest military in the world. But the facts are that we do, and that therefore our hardware was useful here. I like to think that this is one time when it's being used for good.

I also like to think that this is a global revolution. And it is absolutely necessary that the Libyans win, that the revolutionary momentum is kept up.

The world is changing. Very quickly. I do not think that old paradigms and old habits of thought apply anymore.

But that's just me. I guess we'll see who's right. :)

[joshcryer]

137. Beautiful post MedleyMisty. Thanks.

[bobbolink]

140. Bookmarked for words that need to be savored.

I went out of the thread and came back without the view all, so I could get just your post to bookmark.

That is one of the most cogent posts on this whole situation that I have read!

:applause:

:hug: :grouphug:

[defendandprotect]

126. Because of the arming of Gaddafi by UK, France, Russia -- and in the end USA ...

also had a contract with Gaddafi for weapons --

Gaddafi had the means to destroy these cities and their citizens involved in the

uprisings --

Seems just to me that these nations redeemed themselves in this NFZ operation --

as long as they depart when the weapons are destroyed --

[bobbolink]

128. Maybe part of the "making amends" step?

You bring up an important point... redemption.

Hadn't thought of it that way before... good point!

[defendandprotect]

138. Came to check before saying "good night" --

Trust this will all keep moving in the right direction --

Know we have the same wish that they will succeed -- and same fears!

:)

[joshcryer]

139. defendandprotect, your nickname has always been so spot on.

And so has your support. :hug:

[pinboy3niner]

141. I'll second Josh

Victory for the revolution is in sight. Many challenges ahead, but this will be a new beginning for Libya.

Thankyou for all your support, d&p! :hug:

[bobbolink]

142. Its about all of us. We ARE all in this together. It just that, sadly, so many don't see that yet.

This is the spirit that Madison was missing.

Maybe they can come to understand that this is a truly GLOBAL action now!

[tabatha]

129. no intervention, no revolution

[joshcryer]

130. Day 39 part 2 here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x756140

[tabatha]

144. deleted.