NHKWorld TV: Fukushima #3 lights are on in control room.

[godai]

I'm summarizing what I heard at 1pm eastern. The first powerup of reactor #3 was successful at about 10:30 pm Tuesday. Lights are on. Attempts to turn on the cooling pumps will be made on Wednesday.

So, seems to be one small good news step.

[n2doc]

1. ...and they are all red n/t

[Junkdrawer]

2. Lick of paint, some curtains, a potted plant and you'd never know....

there was an accident...

[Botany]

3. And it is all good right now because the lights are on?

The building on the left in the foreground is Fukushimima Daiichi #3

[Rex]

16. Holyshit!

Haven't seen a close up of it before.

[Maru Kitteh]

4. progress and good news are good things, except to those who *need* this to be the end

of the world so they can go about setting their hair on fire.

It's a tragedy, and it will continue to be a serious problem for the people of Japan. It just rubs me backwards when some people around here need it to be more than that.

[Junkdrawer]

6. Rubs me the wrong way when the people of Japan (and the world) are lied to....

at the peril of their health in order to save an industry.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x713927

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x565830

[Botany]

7. some people around here need it to be more than that.

:grr:

No DUer worth his or her salt doesn't want this thing to be over .... take that to the bank.

[Octafish]

5. And the plutonium?

How the MOX situation?
Some say the containment's not breached.
Others say it's probably cracked, at least a little.
I'm not into the DLC or triangulation:
Here's one area I don't want to be anywhere in the middle.

[godai]

8. That's reactor 3. Could be that MOX concerns is the reason for going with #3 first.

Overall, this is a very bad situation but maybe not hopeless. #2 and #3 seem to be the biggest problems. That's more than enough for major concern but also why electrification is an important step, starting with #3.

[Hannah Bell]

9. you can't report any progress. because things are still bad, you see,

so progress doesn't matter.

besides, everyone knows that tepco/the japanese lie about everything. unless they're reporting something bad, in which case they tell the truth. but if they report good news, they're lying. economic blogs & the daily mail are much more trustworthy sources. tyler durden is reporting 70 gazillion becquerels of radiation in tokyo today!@!!!!!!!eat kelp!!!!! drink miso!!!!take iodine!!!!!!look at my graphic of radiation clouds!!!!!!see this picture of destroyed reactor for the 100th time!!!!!!!no other evidence necessary!!!!!!

[Junkdrawer]

11. It is,in fact, a destroyed reactor....

perhaps we can start building some common ground.

[Hannah Bell]

12. the *reactor* #3 has been destroyed? i hadn't heard that.

[Junkdrawer]

13. You're right. There may be some large parts intact in that mess....

The intact parts are hereby to be referred to as "The Reactor" and any other collection of destroyed parts are hereby to be referred to as "merely the reactor building".

Got it. Important to keep terminology straight.

[godai]

15. Yes, the most important parts are not destroyed.

Seems that way or else no one could get near the reactor at any time.

[Junkdrawer]

18. FYI, the official TEPCO status of the Reactor Containment Vessel is "Unknown."

http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news_images/pdf/ENGNEWS01_1300796691P.pdf

[godai]

19. Yes, agreed that it's a bad situation but I still have hope.

Getting the pumps working is key. Even if they don't work tomorrow, replacements are on the way. I'm not sure how 'good' the situation can get but it seems most experts don't expect a reactor explosion, like Chernobyl.

[Hannah Bell]

22. fyi "unknown" is not synonymous with "destroyed". if the reactor itself were

"destroyed" radiation levels would be several magnitudes higher than is presently being reported.

or so i've read.

[Statistical]

24. As a comparison radiation levels at Chernobyl with core exposed were 300Sv/hr.

300 Sv/hr = 300,000 mSv/hr = 300,000,000 uSv/hr

Radiation levels in Japan vary but are in the magnitude of 5,00 to 2,000 uSv/hr near plant 3. Roughly 1/150,000th of Chernobyl.

A destroyed reactor isn't something that you can "miss". Your statement was accurate, the reactor is not destroyed.
The exact status and level of damage is unknown but so far primary containment is holding.

If primary containment wasn't holding the first "clue" would have been the fact that every single living thing in the vicinity of the core would have been dead in less than 30 minutes.

[Junkdrawer]

25. I'm not so sure about that. Now, TEPCO said the vessel is holding pressure...

so, unless they're bold face lying (always a possibility), the vessel is (was??) still somewhat intact.

But at Chernobyl there was a direct route to the environment - burning graphite. Here the lava-like pool of metal could burn through the vessel and then sit at the bottom of the heap slowly releasing radioactivity for years. Unless there's a steam explosion, I see no comparable Chernobyl-like route.

[Statistical]

26. For radioactive material maybe but not for radiation.

If the core was exposed regardless of the dispersal of radioactive material or lack there of the radiation (energy) at the site would be thousands if not hundreds of thousands of times higher that what has been detected.

Radioactive material isn't radiation. Radiation is energy and exposed core would be radiating an almost unimaginable amount of energy.

The burning graphite or steam explosion at Chernobyl didn't increase the radiation (which is energy), nor did it increase the amount of radioactive material (which is a constant based on the size of the core and material in it). They simply facilitated a method for dispersal over very large area. Without burning graphite the damage done by Chernobyl would have been dispersed over a smaller area but the radiation levels in the reactor building would still have been as intense.

An exposed core burning or not would be immediately obvious. It isn't something you wonder about, or think might be happening.
300 Sv/hr is kinda hard to comprehend but it works out to 82mSv per SECOND!. Lethal dose in a matter of minutes.

Saying the RPV *might* be intact is like saying that yesterday the Earth might not have been hit by a 14km wide asteroid. There is no mights about it.

[Junkdrawer]

27. The same rods (unmelted) sit in cooling pools. So water is enough shielding.....

to block the radiation. Perhaps that's why they're trying to douse #3 in water. And why readings around the plant go slightly down after each dousing.

[Statistical]

28. 20ft (or more) of water is an effective radiation shield however under your doomsday scenario of

a molten core burned out of containment there would be no 20 ft of water on top of it. A sprinkling of water wouldn't do anything to reduce radiation levels. It takes 7 inches of water to cut radiation in half. So without a large amount of water between the source and the detector the reading would be thousands of times higher. I mean think about that. We aren't quibbling about +-10% or even doubling, or even 10x we are talking about literally 150,000x as high.

Detectable radiation would literally be off the scale, sadly that is exactly what happened at Chernobyl. The radiation was so intense that it caused many detectors to simply fail. Of the detectors that survived they all maxed out at 36mSv per hour (or less) so while operators knew radiation was "high" (at least > 3.6mSv /hr) they had no idea it was a thousands of times higher. The operators later testified (before most of them died days later) they had no idea the reactor was "gone". They attempted for hours to pump cooling water into a reactor that was no longer there. Later when a large scale detector finally arrived they dismissed the readings of 300+ Sv/hr as impossible because it was such an insanely large number. Denial no doubt but it would be like checking your bank account and seeing not thousands of dollars or even millions but billions of dollars.

[Junkdrawer]

29. But at #4, there's a debate among experts as to whether the rods were completely exposed......

According to your logic, it would be impossible because the radiation would be 1000 times higher.

[Statistical]

30. Exposed but still inside the RPV which is a huge radiation shield.

You were indicating the reactor is destroyed. That is a fallacy. Just some disaster porn scenarios for you to fantasize to.

[Junkdrawer]

31. In Number 4? No we're talking about rods exposed in the EMPTY cooling pools....

surrounded by the remnants of a building "severely damaged" (their words) in a hydrogen explosion.

[Statistical]

34. Activity of spent fuel is a tiny fraction of that in reactor core.

Tiny tiny fraction.





However even the spent fuel which much much much less activity showed a significant rise in detectable radiation when water was lost and then a significant drop when partially restored. The activity in spent fuel is a tiny fraction of that in the core so those radiation spikes and falls that occurred with spent fuel it would have been magnitudes higher if containment of the core was lost.

Thanks for proving the point.

BTW you can estimate activity out to 100 days since shutdown.

[godai]

35. Many thanks for your informative posts.

You seem to have knowledge of nuclear reactors beyond anyone else on DU.

What are your thoughts on pumping salt water as opposed to fresh water? Can salt water be pumped into a reactor safely? Csn an intact reactor survive without cooling water circulating?

[Statistical]

36. Can reactor survive without cooling? Not for years.

Decay heat will reduce over time but it will take a months before reactor can survive without active forced cooling. Eventually the reactor will be cool enough that it will "only" require standing water to keep it cool. That water will slowly boil off but the rate will be manageable (like cooling ponds #5 & #6). Continually forced cooling will no longer be necessary (and given the damaged state of the reactors no longer wise). You simply need to replace the water that is lost by periodically adding water to the core. Still it will take years before the reactor requires no water at all (can be air cooled). I know that sounds bad but time is an ally. The thermal output of the reactor will continually go down. As long as they can keep situation stabilized it will get increasingly easier to manage the heat.

As far as saltwater, it is NOT a good idea. It presents a whole host of problems but at the time they had no choice. Reactor at the point of shutdown had roughly 15x as much thermal output as is does now. Without ANY cooling it would have melted containment in a matter of hours. I have no idea what the long term effects of salt will be to the inside of the reactor. Obviously the reactors are total economic losses so long term viability of the reactors doesn't matter. What matters is to what extent will the salt corrosion reduce future cooling. Honestly I don't know. That is why salt water is not used inside the reactor. Actually even "normal water" isn't used. The water inside a reactor is distilled to remove any impurities for this exact reason. I think it may end up being a race against time. Salt corrosion will reduce the ability to cool the reactor BUT thermal output of the reactor is also naturally decaying. If heat output falls faster than cooling potential then saltwater gamble paid off, even the reduced cooling will be able to keep temps stable. If cooling potential falls faster than decay heat .... well that would be bad.

[Junkdrawer]

37. Your second graph shows a flat line for MOX up to ten years out....

and it's my understanding that there was a full-core removal of 4 within the last few months.

[Statistical]

38. I don't believe #4 has MOX fuel. My understanding is only 3 reactors in Japan are aproved for MOX.

At this plant I believe only the #3 reactor has MOX fuel and that fuel was recently loaded for the first time.

The problem with #4 spent fuel pond is the amount of fuel in it and the relatively young age of the fuel (younger fuel = higher thermal output). Normally reactors refuel 1/3 of the fuel during each fueling outage (once ever 18-24 months). So at most you have 1/3 of a cores worth of "young fuel". The next youngest batch is at least 19 months old, the next batch 37 months, etc. The #4 reactor was having maintenance done on the reactor core so obviously ALL the fuel was removed and like you said it was a short time ago. That is a lot of fuel and relatively hot (even though still significantly cooler than fuel in the reactor cores).



If this chart is right #4 spent fuel pond has over 2x the thermal output of any other pond in the plant. That will make stabilizing the temps in the #4 pond difficult. 1.6 million kCal per hour will boil off about ~700 gallons an hour (if my conversion is correct).

On edit: Looks like it was August 2010 when MOX fuel was first loaded in #3 reactor.
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/newsarticle.aspx?id=28211&terms=mox%20fukushima

[Statistical]

23. The reactor at a minimum is the component which is intact.

If it wasn't then radiation levels would be similar to Chernobyl (i.e. couple thousand times higher).

So yes the reactor itself is intact. Many of the ancillary, emergency, cooling, and control systems are destroyed as it the reactor building, secondary containment, and possibly the spent fuel pond, however the reactor is intact. Other components may also be intact too. Hopefully with power we will learn more about what still works.

So if you are honest in your attempt to "start somewhere" we can agree the reactor is intact.

[godai]

14. That was posted yesterday, so it must be true.

Someone posted "Reactor #3 completely destroyed!", adding the exclamation point for some strange reason. No link, however.

[dkofos]

10. I'm sure the whole plant is a glow.

[flamingdem]

17. Read this article about what they are NOT telling you about the reactors

http://www.counterpunch.org/takashi03222011.html

[godai]

20. Very informative...

The Japanese expert did point out the importance of getting the pumps working. But he also pointed out the hazards of seawater, which is what they have to use, unless they get a fresh water connection repaired.

I think officials in Japan need to soft sell the current radioactivity situation, to avoid panic. I don't think what they are saying are lies, just spin on how the levels are relatively 'safe'. There's some truth in that but no radioactivity is certainly preferred.

[Junkdrawer]

21. This paragraph resonates with me (long story why)...

Hirose: Yes, there’s a little bit of hope there. But what’s worrisome is that a nuclear reactor is not like what the schematic pictures show (shows a graphic picture of a reactor, like those used on TV). This is just a cartoon. Here’s what it looks like underneath a reactor container (shows a photograph). This is the butt end of the reactor. Take a look. It’s a forest of switch levers and wires and pipes. On television these pseudo-scholars come on and give us simple explanations, but they know nothing, those college professors. Only the engineers know. This is where water has been poured in. This maze of pipes is enough to make you dizzy. Its structure is too wildly complex for us to understand. For a week now they have been pouring water through there. And it’s salt water, right? You pour salt water on a hot kiln and what do you think happens? You get salt. The salt will get into all these valves and cause them to freeze. They won’t move. This will be happening everywhere. So I can’t believe that it’s just a simple matter of you reconnecting the electricity and the water will begin to circulate. I think any engineer with a little imagination can understand this. You take a system as unbelievably complex as this and then actually dump water on it from a helicopter – maybe they have some idea of how this could work, but I can’t understand it.

[flamingdem]

33. Yes, that's the kicker, they seem to be living on hope

with no reason to expect to fix things.

No one can stay there working long enough to fix it either.

[Teaser]

32. Oh geez, Cockpunch again?

I'm sorry but people don't go to Cockpunch for news, they go their for Alexander Cockburn's dose of angry.

[marions ghost]

40. Are you saying

Hirose Takashi is wrong in what he says in the interview?

[Old Troop]

39. Those aren't lights; they're the technicians.