What we are seeing with Libya is a system of international checks and balances.

[originalpckelly]

This is what should happen to any nation gone wrong. Instead of one country acting unilaterally, like the US did with Iraq, all nations (aside from the offending party of course) should protect the people of any given nation from the military of the given nation attacking straight up civilians. The world did nothing at some very important parts of history, one being the gassing of the Kurds in Iraq.

We just let that massacre, that genocide happen.

We also just let Darfur happen. The northern parts of the country were supporting the psycho Janjaweed militias with their airforce. People who use primitive tools to kill their food v. a fucking airforce. Seems fair to me, right?

But then again, Darfur probably doesn't have the oil resources of Libya.

The biggest problem, however, with enforcing a no-fly zone is not attacking planes, they contain individuals who are known combatants and have made a choice to participate in a war and would kill civilians.

The problem is attacking SAMs, because dictators don't give a shit about their people, they want to stay in power, and they will use human shields to make the attacking force look terrible in the eyes of the people in the dictators own nation, as well as in the whole world.

It doesn't matter what country takes part, if you have to attack SAMs, you are then opening the door to a whole new world of possibilities that includes killing people who are not in the military of the dictator.

If, however, you use stealth aircraft, like the F-22 or the F-35 (should they ever get that to an aircraft carrier near you) then you remove the biggest obstacle of a no-fly zone. You can have your planes cruise around, and attack jets of the opposing force and you'll only have the risk that the jets are in the enemy's city and drop on people. But it's a lot easier to see and avoid a flaming crash than it is to avoid a bomb. Plus, you can have rules of engagement that say to take the planes down over open areas, except for when it's just completely impossible to do so.

But there are nations in the areas surrounding Libya that are allies of the US and might allow us to base F-22s for the purpose of a no-fly zone. We could refuel them in air to extend their range.

It's a damn shame the F-35 isn't around yet, because it could really make a difference here. It would allow nations other than the US to do this.

Peace should always be the first option, and the people of Libya tried that. It's not like they took up arms on the first day of this, but Gaddafi wants to squash them like little bugs.

When peace fails, and people are attacked, en masse, it changes everything. The people of Libya have made their choice, they want to be free. At least part of Libya managed to free itself, and now it's fallen back into Gaddafi's hands. Even if you only support them in those areas, then it might make a difference. It might be too late, and who knows how many people will die now, because the UN takes so long to make a damn decision.

I guess I have to ask:
What if you lived in Libya, and you wanted to be free, you freed yourself, but the dictator of your fair land managed to reclaim your land? What if you were facing certain extermination for participating in a rebellion against a dictator?

And I will also note that we're not attacking Bob with a machine gun like we are with the Pakistan air strikes or the Afghan war. We're not trying to fight against some nebulous idea, we're fighting against a specific party, whose forces fall under the Geneva conventions completely, not a "war on terrorism".

It would be nice if we could have non-violence now, but it cannot happen without a shitload of people dying, far more than would die if we (not the US, but the entire world) take action.

[seabeyond]

1. did kosovo have the oil? nt

[originalpckelly]

2. Very true, but on the other hand...

what about Darfur?


"*LALALALALALA* Can't hear you screaming in pain as you are bombed to death *LALALALALALALA*"

That seemed to be the world's response.

And let me also state, this because a lot of the people in Libya are Arabs. In Darfur, the Arab league's member states were actually supplying the Janjaweed with weapons.

It's pretty fucked up.

[seabeyond]

3. It's pretty fucked up.

that is true.

[RZM]

5. I don't think there's a whole lot of valuable stuff in Darfur

But that didn't stop George Galloway from preemptively accusing the US of intervening in order to steal Sudan's resources - he said that if were to happen, that would be the real reason, thus exposing yet again what an asshat the guy is.

Darfur probably would have required more than a no-fly zone, in part because the situation also demanded massive amounts of humanitarian aid. That would have meant 'boots on the ground' and the first step probably would have been seizing Khartoum as a base of operations and most likely ousting the regime. That's probably a big reason that it never happened.

[soryang]

4. War propaganda

Just what we need now, another war, another unfunded liability. Think the people of Libya will be better off?

This looks like a Pentagon press release.

[RZM]

6. No it doesn't

It looks like a left-wing take on the situation, which seems pretty appropriate considering this is DU.

And I do think the people of Libya will be better off - certainly the rebels will, as international intervention will make the difference between success (survival) and defeat (death). Maybe Khadaffi's cronies won't fare as well, but I'm really not too concerned about them. They had their 2 generations in power . . . time for the rest of the population to be represented.

[global1]

7. If The UN Would Have Only Done This A Week Or Two Ago......

the anti-Ghaddafi forces would still be in control of many of the towns that they took control of. Because the UN took this time to ultimately make the right decision on this no-fly zone it gave Ghaddafi the opportunity to re-take the towns and in the process many of those anti forces were killed.

Ghaddafi - we've found out - is a big chicken. He backed off years ago when (I believe) someone in his family was killed after we stood up to him. He backed off again - during the Bush administration after Saddam was killed. Ghaddafi is just a bully and he needs to be treated like a bully.

I hope now that he gets the message this time and he steps down and leaves Libya to the people to be run democratically. However, I don't think he has any options to leave and go into exile anywhere. Who would take him?

Seems like his days are numbered now and he is a target.

[soryang]

8. That is all hype

First of all, Pakistani press has reported that the violence was stirred up by US and UK special forces. The live reports from the protesters who were calling for US military intervention on BBC sources sure sounded scripted to me. The facts, just as in Iraq, haven't beenT carefully examined. This is a propaganda campaign, reminiscient of Saddam's army allegedly ripping preemies from incubators. The death toll will be higher not lower. This is an ethnic conflict in Libya, and has nothing to do with democracy, it has to do with internecine rivalry and grudges. The death toll in Libya will be greater not less because of western intervention, the purpose of which is to renegotiate oil and natural gas leases and contracts and has nothing to do with human rights.

President Saleh in Yemen, our dictator ally there is killing his people today? Where is the western intervention? The Bahrain autocracy is killing its people, where is the UN resolution for war?

It's all about the oil. The US and UK have been looking for this opportunity to revert to naked imperialism in Libya for decades. It's armed aggression and no one knows the outcome. Perhaps Libya will be broken into more pieces, more subservient to Anglo American corporate exploitation. Divide and conquer the old imperial rubic rises from the ashes of the two lost and losing wars in Asia, Iraq and Afhganistan, while the globalists try to prove for the last and final fling, that yes dupes of America, war does pay, it really does, it's going to work this time.


Dharfur is about the oil, so you don't know whereof you speak. Hanging this new experiment in military aggression on the left is about the most ignorant misinformation I have heard yet. Keep trying. I was planning attacks on Libya before you were born.

[RZM]

9. Much of what you write here is paranoid conspiracy bunk

News flash: Ideology matters

Now . . . it's certainly not everything, as is demonstrated by the lack of forceful international action in Bahrain, Yemen, and wherever else, where given alliance structures/strategic interests, the balance of gains and losses to the powers that be are skewed toward the latter. But just because there is no intervention there does not mean that ideology is not a factor in the international response to Libya, where the regime's isolation means ideological approaches have room to breathe. Believe it or not, the evil corporations are not behind everything that happens in the world. I know it sounds crazy, but there actually are people in the Western world who care about democracy and human rights more than they do about oil profits. Some of those people actually hold elected office and even shape foreign policy!

Also, you haven't the slightest clue how old I am. Even if your random guess proves to be reasonably close, it's quite odd that you're bragging about 'planning attacks on Libya' in the same breath as you condemn the real thing.

[HEyHEY]

12. I find it hilarious that you belive pakistani news

So, you just go around looking to read anything that supports your own personal theories?

[HEyHEY]

10. Get bent you close minded mass-murder supporting bink

Did you see the fucking news yet? NO A SHOT HAS BEEN FIRED BY THE UN an d Gaddafi has already talked about a ceasefire. Why? Cause the civilized world told him we would not stand for it. That's all it took. And tools, like you, were all against making a simple show of strength cause you're too ignorant and racist to understand all the countries in the middle east are different.

[soryang]

13. Not a shot has been fired?

You couldn't be more wrong. Who armed the rebels? The US UK and their Egyptian flunkies. Who is killing Libyans now, US, UK and French. How many did we kill in Iraq? Over one million people.

Keep up your lying misinformation. You don't know anything.

[joshcryer]

11. I agree. If only the UN could act more often. But it will never be able to if people keep...

...illegitimizing it.

So Gaddafi goes to the ICC, everyone will be happy with it. But there are plenty of other tyrants that belong to the ICC (International Criminal Courts).

I hope one day that the ICC has Bush facing charges.