The charter school principal on 60 minutes made excuses for public schools outscoring his school.

[madfloridian]

I have a couple of things to say about the 60 minutes segment.

I heard the head of that charter school make excuses for why the public schools in the area were outscoring his school in many cases. He said they could not be expected to get everything done in one year.

Oh, really? That kind of excuse is not permitted now of teachers in public schools. They have to teach and make no excuses. And the students had better score well or dire things happen.

It is zero tolerance now for public school children and teachers.

Here is that part of the interview:

But is the model working? When the fifth graders took the New York State math and reading exams, the results were disappointing. On average, other schools in the district scored better than TEP.

"Some people watching this might be thinking, 'Hey, they're paying teachers $125,000 a year. They've attracted the best and the brightest. These results don't really add up,'" Couric pointed out.

"We don't have a magic wand. We're not gonna take kids who are scoring below grade level and bring them up in a year," Vanderhoek said.

"You're the head of the school, the principal. Why do you get to keep your job?" Couric asked.

"Ultimately to build an excellent organization is going to take time. And if that doesn't happen let's say four years from now, then I shouldn't keep my job," Vanderhoek said.

I can just imagine a public school teacher talking like that....saying give me four years.

So stop making excuses, Mr. Vanderhoek.

Also, Joel Klein, who treated the NYC teachers so badly....absolutely positively lied flat out and said all teachers had to do to get tenure was to show up. Lie.

He went on to tell Katie Couric that if you had a pulse you got tenure. What an insulting little man. He also lied about getting rid of teachers on tenure. Tenure is job security, and a teacher can be fired for just cause. It is propaganda that is spread by education "reformers" that teachers on tenure will die before they can be fired. Ridiculous.

Joel Klein is the one who ignored the developers of the NYC rating system for teachers.

Consultants who designed NYC's teacher rating system warned against using to judge performance.

Such a hearing will undoubtedly reveal that the very consultants who designed Klein's rating system warned it should not be used to judge teacher performance. Their support of the "value added model," those consultants said in an Aug. 29, 2008, report, was "limited to the technical quality of the work" and to its potential to assist "in teaching and learning."

They specifically refused to endorse "any particular use (of the method) for accountability, promotion or tenure" of teachers.

"Test scores," they warned, "capture only one dimension of teacher effectiveness, and . . . are not intended as a summary measure of teacher performance."

I have one another bone to pick with the segment. Here is the video.

I had certain little things I did with my classes to get their attention and keep them on focus. But it was randomly done, and it seemed natural not stilted. It was done with a rhythm, but not an artificial one. That clap once, clap twice, stomp twice, clap, ready....is not a natural thing.

Children are very smart when it comes to sincerity. Those repetitive movements seemed a little strained, and they lacked any real world feel.

As to the 90 hour weeks the teacher spoke about...that is not necessary to be a good teacher. I put in hours after school all the time, most teachers do. But a lot of it can be done on the phone and by personal contact with the parents.

This segment made me realize that the movement to break teachers' tenure in this country is deadly serious, and it has huge money and power behind it.

I found a quote from Diane Ravitch which expresses one of the main reasons it is so easy to get rid of teachers' job security....because right now nobody else has it. They don't want teachers to have it either.

NYC Educator has the Ravitch quote at the link:

Quoteworthy

"As for pension and health-care envy, it is a sad thing when working Americans complain that someone else has benefits, instead of agreeing that everyone should have coverage for their health and old age. It reminds me of an old Soviet joke where a peasant says, "My neighbor has a cow and I have none, I want his cow to die." We should not join in this race to the bottom."

[snappyturtle]

1. I saw this segment of 60 Minutes. I fear what is happening not only

to our teachers but to the education process over-all. It is the latter that is the real target. imho

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Iris]

44. It is very frigthening.

Some people have a huge interest in keeping the masses ignorant.

[RainDog]

2. it's clearly just an attempt to undermine yet another part of the common good

and allow corporate control over a vital aspect of democracy.

what a joke that corporate assholes continually excuse themselves (bail me out!) but expect everyone else to perform like automatons.

makes me want to puke.

another example of elite entitlement they do not deserve, but continue to receive.

[madfloridian]

10. And they are so obvious about it.

:hi:

[bertman]

3. Rec. While we're on the subject, here's a link to a commentary that

is from a former teacher with a different take on this issue. It's by Randy Turner and is titled The Failure of American Teachers.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/randy-turner/public-school-teachers-fail_b_835174.html

[madfloridian]

4. Interesting indeed.

"Public schoolteachers have failed miserably by producing the most incompetent, mean-spirited legislators in U.S. history."

Amen to that.

[Iris]

46. well-written and makes all the right points.

[Blacksheep214]

5. I watched this mess.

I called bullshit on the test excuse.

Same with the ability to terminate for cause.

I immediately thought that teachers were being sold out.

Katie Couric couldn't do a hardball interview during a baseball game. 60 Minutes did this charter school story with Edison schools some years ago. How are they doing I wonder?

[madfloridian]

7. Edison is spreading overseas....doing the same old stuff.

And making millions doing it.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

71. Edison failed miserably & their contract was not renewed in my community & they made out like bandit...

[Hannah Bell]

6. kr

[Iwillnevergiveup]

8. "60 Minutes" is getting to be as bad as "Meet the Press"

If that teacher who worked 80-90 hours a week was earning $125,000 a year, she was UNDERPAID!

K&R

[madfloridian]

9. Agreed on that.

And it is not necessary.

[Kolesar]

26. 60 Minutes is a great show

They cover material that even NPR is overlooking

[Electric Monk]

11. My mom was a public school teacher for 30 years. I love your post.

nt

[madfloridian]

54. It's kind of sad to see the attacks on public schools now.

They are escalating. It's hard to watch. Thanks for the nice words.

[Sancho]

12. hmmmm...$125,000

SS and insurance and things usually cost about 35%. The repukes often include those as part of the package. If added to 125,000; a teacher in that school costs over $150,000!! And all they get is attention clapping with a self-selected population...regardless of the pedagogy issues, that's about three times average salaries with benefits, and that isn't great teaching.

I can not believe that got to 60 minutes..and Katie was a ditz, The test scores will suck in four years too...

[Ken Murray]

13. Why on earth should k-12 teachers have tenure

Tenure means lifetime job security, generally meaning that one must commit such egregious acts, that they cannot be fired.

Why should they have lifetime protection from firing, for lousy job performance?

Why have a system that cares so little about children? THEY are the ones who suffer.

If a person doesn't want to do an excellent job, then get out of the way, and let those who do get a chance!

[truth2power]

15. Are you lost? n/t

[strategery blunder]

16. Tenure is basically the right to a hearing

To fire a tenured teacher, all a district usually needs to do is hold a hearing as to whether cause exists to fire said teacher. If it's an administrative bureaucracy buttkissing district (hint: administrators are NOT all saints) where the administrators cannot or will not hear the evidence impartially, then all said hearing usually does is rubberstamp the firing. If a firing cannot be justified on the merits, all administrators need to do is fudge some paperwork to fabricate something.

All too often, "lousy job performance" equals "You flunked my kid!" It matters not if the kid in question actually earned the F. I wonder when teachers will finally get to do something about lousy parents? I know I went through a few quarters of less-than-ideal learning environments as a kid.

Oh, and as for tenure equating to ironclad, lifetime job security, I suggest you have a look at madfloridian's journal, and all of the posts contained therein that concern replacing experienced, effective, lifetime teachers with cheap TFA temps.

I'm not a teacher, but I can read and post to this board, so I thank a teacher. I am sure I will learn from the teachers who post here even more details about the mirage that is tenure, and the administrative sandtraps that surround it. :)

[joeglow3]

29. I so badly want to believe you.

Logically, that makes sense. However, if true, how can a school district like New York, with 55,000 teachers, honestly make the claim that only SEVEN teachers in 3 years are underperforming? Your explanation makes it seem like teachers are being canned daily for bull shit reasons. That appears to not be the case in many districts. Frankly, I think this shit is the reason we are seeing such a backlash against teachers. Clearly there are more than 2.3 underperforming teachers a year out of 55,000. Lets be honest and admit that while we have the best system available and more needs to be done to support it, there are also some items that need to change.

[madfloridian]

32. Why don't you do some research of your own on how many teachers Klein/Bloomberg fired?

You might be surprised.

What you heard on 60 minutes is pure and simple propaganda.

[joeglow3]

39. Are those cuts for underperforming?

Everything I can find say they are for "budget reasons." Additionally, those appear to be based on seniority and NOT for underperforming.

However, I did find a 2010 NY Times article stating that out of 55,000, THREE were fired for underperforming through 2 years. Granted, 10 others agreed to resign or retire. However, NO profession or company/city/school has 99.9891% of their staff performing at an acceptable level.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/24/education/24teachers.html

[madfloridian]

42. I am so glad you straightened it out in your mind.

They are lying when they say teachers get tenure easily, and they are lying when they say a teacher on tenure can not be fired.

It is hard to get tenure and takes several years....3 in Florida and often longer. By that time one should blame the administrators.

They have clouded the issue so much with the lies of the education reformers that it is hard to say with certainty what the reasons are for all the layoffs and threatened layoffs.

The fact that TFA and TNTP teachers are often replacing these fired/laid off teachers should give you a clue.

[joeglow3]

48. That STILL begs the question

Why so few teachers in New York fired for underperforming?

I agree that it is bullshit that this is even an issue. However, it is being brought up because of crap like this. Honestly, out of 1,000 employees in ANY profession, I would generously expect at least 1 to be fired for not performing. This says 55 out of 55,000 should be canned every year (not 6).

[madfloridian]

52. Good grief! They made a non-issue a big effing deal and you fell big time.

Why should it be an issue? Don't you see what they are doing? They are taking a non-issue, playing it up, and doing a great job of fooling you.

Teachers on yearly contracts expect it, continuing contracts don't UNLESS for just cause. If there is just cause, tenured teachers can be and are fired.

But they have made it to tenure in K-12 on the basis of competence. Why should they be fired without cause?

I am saying good bye to you because you are not paying attention to our answers to you.

[joeglow3]

53. goodbye nt.

[MedicalAdmin]

83. Joe - let me ask you a question that goes to the heart of your misunderstanding

Who has the authority to hire and fire those NYC teachers? THAT is who is responsible. If you are doing suck ass work at your job Joe, is it your responsibility to fire yourself? Is it the unions job?

Every teacher contract has very clear ways in it to terminate that contract and it's not hard. Please understand that anyone who says that teachers cannot be fired is lying to you. But don't take my word on it, ask to see the standard teachers contract in your area - it's a public document. Read it and understand the lie. Their lie is turning you into their stooge Joe. You're better than that. Don't be part of the lie.

[Iris]

47. And do those company employees who underperform get fired as a matter of course?

Judging from the utter lack of any kind of decent customer service or simply service that I deal with in EVERY business transaction I do, I kind of doubt it.

[joeglow3]

57. While that is anecdotal, I cannot dispute it.

However, in the companies I have worked for, there have been a number of people fired. And to the credit of the companies, they spent 2 or 3 years letting the person know they were behind and worked with them, to no avail.

[Iris]

58. I would hope, tenure or not, you would at least grant teachers the same opportunity.

[Nevernose]

78. I can't speak for NY City

"Underperforming."However, in my neck of the woods, teachers are often let go for cause. The cause, however, is rarely. "Underperforming." In fact, I'm not even sure what this means.

Most teachers are first found to be ineffective in some specific area, such as classroom management or lesson planning. Then an opportunity to improve is given, and usually help is given -- either from the administration or from other teachers.

Most improve. I've had directives from my supervisor about areas that need improvement, and I'm an excellent teacher.

Some do not, either through sheer stubborness or through incompetence. These are given hearings and sanctions, and if they still don't improve, they're let go. Others are on an unofficial watch list; they do the bare minimum and so can't be disciplined, so they are micromanaged until they quit or screw up. And everyone screws up eventually.

"Tenure" and union contracts mostly serve to protect us from poor administrators: the ones who look for faults for no reason or the ones who want to fire people based on their gender or the ones who just don't know their asses from a hole in the ground.

And that's where a major part of the problem is: administration. Too many of them weren't good teachers or wanted to control things out of some dark psychological compulsion, plus they happened to be diplomatic enough to get a promotion. East Texas is infamous for giving football coaches admin jobs, for instance. Some of them are in it for the money, which is comparable to the private sector except with less oversight. If you want to see a failing school, you don't even have to look at the test scores...just look at their assistant principals. Most admin I've dealt with wouldn't know a good teacher from a bad one if their lives depended on it (though maybe it's different at the elementary level).

Nobody hates bad teachers worse than other teachers. We love kids; our own kids go to these schools. Most of us would love to provide a list of the shitty teachers we've encountered, but we also know it wouldn't do any good, because it's not the contract protecting them, it's incompetant principals.

[kmlisle]

81. Opposing Facts

If this is true then how can it also be true that 50% of new teachers are gone by the end of 5 years? we seem to have opposing facts! One way to understand this is what I see at my school every year: from 2 to 6 new teachers leave by the end of the first semester. And more leave every year after that. Sometimes they are asked to leave and sometimes they choose leave for other reasons like money and the stress of high stakes testing environments and better opportunities.

If we really want to support poor children and help them to learn we need to do more to support poor families. Finland, always held up as an example for their world class test scores, has 2.8% of their children living in poverty. We have 28%. If we really want better scores we need to be sure our children have health care, dental care (how much would your child learn with a toothache?), healthy food and exercise. They also need to participate in the arts. These things are being cut from our public schools due to lack of money and because they are "not on the test". I was especially offended by the idea that public school teachers do not care about their students. Again we have opposing facts: if they are so uncaring why do they spend thousands of dollars from their own pockets to feed, cloth and provide school supplies and books for the children in their classes. I see this happening every day at my school. These "uncaring" teachers are buying food for kids to take home in the backpack program our school has so kids can eat on weekends, they are giving out school supplies, snacks, prizes and treats, they are spending their own money to buy curricular materials and they also spend their time after school tutoring children who need extra help. And we welcome and do everything we can to help every child who comes through our door, no lottery required! When will that story get on TV?

[blackspade]

24. You apparently profoundly misunderstand tenure

[thanks_imjustlurking]

28. "There's no contract, we're at will." "We have a lot of trust."

And I supposed corporate CEO's are still negotiating their golden parachutes. The way teachers are treated reminds me of _The Giving Tree_, which I loathe - great way to raise a self-centered, thoughtless kid. I'm sure the CEO's are snickering behind their hands at the kind of BS some of us will buy.

Oh, and - that stomp, stomp, clap. Ugh. I guarantee I would have been kicked out of that school (as a student) as a disruptor. Of course, if you want to raise little robots, it works great.

[madfloridian]

31. lol, like I said...the powerful rich Propaganda Machine worked well.

:rofl:

You are a wee bit obvious.

[adigal]

33. Because my political views, or one crazy parent

can get me fired if I don't have tenure. Or a parent can pressure the principal, who could pressure me, to pass their child who didn't do any work all year, or they will fire me if I don't have tenure. THAT is why we have tenure.

[ljm2002]

34. Tenure for elementary and high school teachers...

...is not the same as tenure for college professors.

Tenure for college professors is intended to protect academic freedom, and yes it is very hard to fire a professor once they have achieved tenure.

Tenure for elementary and high school teachers protects their rights, i.e. they have a right to a hearing if there is a dispute. It is not at all what you have described.

You may be sincere in your emotional outburst, but you really ought to inform yourself first. You are playing right into the hands of those who would have us fighting against each other for scraps, rather than fighting for each other's right to have more than scraps.

[LibertyLover]

45. You must be joking -

of course teachers with tenure can be fired. My geometry teacher in sophomore year of high school had tenure, but he was also seriously whacked. That year small, easily concealable tape recorders became easily and cheaply available. Students in one of his other classes were so upset by his nastiness and picking on a few students that they got together, bought one and taped hours of his class. Then they brought it to the father of one of the girls he picked on the most and played it for him. She had complained to her parents about this teacher and they had passed it off as 'oh she doesn't want to do the class work'. When the father heard the tape however he did a 180 and complained to the school board. They listened to the tape, interviewed students - I had to tell the story of how he treated me when I had a massive nose bleed - and then interviewed the teacher. He denied it all and was confronted with the audio tape and student reports. He was given a choice - resign or be fired. He refused to resign and so was fired. For the last 4 weeks of school we had a substitute.

[Casandia]

17. This is a GREAT post

I am so disgusted with what's going on right now. Sending this link to everyone I know. Thanks!

[madfloridian]

38. Kind words, and thanks.

I am retired, but I am talking to more and more teachers who are still teaching. They feel like they have been kicked in the gut.

[Starry Messenger]

18. k&r

[LWolf]

19. I didn't see it.

Thanks for sharing it.

[TBF]

20. K&R nt

[L. Coyote]

21. The real problem some Republicans have with the education system is

teachers are educated liberals.

[annabanana]

22. "Educated = Liberals". . yup. When people become educated, they

are much more likely to value the truth, empirical evidence, scientific theory etc etc..

[Iris]

82. Not all of them. In fact, I think in K-12, you can find a lot of conservatives

But the truth still has a liberal bias! :)

[blackspade]

23. K&R in support of teachers!

This reform movement is morally bankrupt.

[madfloridian]

60. Amen to that.

The reform movement is a lie being spread by money and power.

[Kolesar]

25. Such attitude!

Don't you ever change. :toast:

[Jefferson23]

27. Considering Ravitch's position years ago and who she worked

for..her change of opinion; this alone should have brought a great deal of
honest brokering by the MSM on the subject. Sadly, we know this is not the case.

In NYC and the tri-state area, the teachers union has been running ads, and Bloomberg is after
the firefighters and police unions too.

Schmucks, the lot of them. Don't hold your breath waiting for him to tax the wealthy for increased revenue.

Mayor Bloomberg gets hit with numerous biting union newspaper and TV ads in budget proposal debate
BY ADAM LISBERG AND RICH SCHAPIRO
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
Sunday, February 20, 2011
The battle over Mayor Bloomberg's proposed budget has exploded into a very public - and ugly - ad war.

In recent days, New York's most powerful unions have unleashed a barrage of biting newspaper ads and TV commercials ripping Hizzoner's deep cuts.

The most common targets: Bloomberg's proposal to lay off thousands of teachers and his plan to slash the $12,000 annual pension supplement for cops and firefighters.

"Bloomberg's Lies," shouts one full-page newspaper ad taken out by the police and fire unions. It features a cartoon of Bloomberg as Pinocchio with a long branch as a nose - and a list of "Lies" connected to his position on the $12,000 Variable Supplement Fund, a yearly bonus to the retirees.

A similar ad - paid for by the Police-Fire Superior Officers' Alliance - appeared in papers the same day.

"The public has been bombarded by City Hall with misinformation regarding the VSF and we felt that setting the record straight was paramount," said Michael Palladino, president of the Detectives Endowment Association.

The teachers union launched a million-dollar TV ad campaign blasting the mayor for cutting teachers rather than supporting the millionaire's tax.

Bloomberg in a commercial from the United Federation of Teachers called 'Blizzard' - slamming all his proposed budget cuts. (UFT via YouTube)

"Our schools are short of money, yet he refuses to ask millionaires to pay their fair share," a voice intones as an image of a toy snow globe appears - an apparent reference to Bloomberg's highly criticized handling of the December snowstorms.

The teachers union declared war on City Hall after Bloomberg vowed to scrap the last-in, first-out state law that requires teachers be laid off based on seniority rather than merit during a budget crisis.

"We want to get the truth out there," said UFT President Michael Mulgrew.

Bloomberg has the backing of advocacy group Education Reform Now - headed by former Chancellor Joel Klein - which released a TV commercial hailing the mayor's plan. The spot features three teachers saying the best instructors should be kept whether they've worked "for two years or 22 years."

On his radio show Friday, Bloomberg addressed the unions' concerns. "The problem is, when they ask for more, we - government representing the people - give them things that we can't afford. And saying 'no' is very difficult, but you've got to do that," he said.

The union-vs.-government battle is not confined to New York. In recent days, allies of the labor movement and public workers have rallied in several states like Wisconsin to protest sweeping budget cuts.

With Rachel Monahan

[e-mail]

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-02-20/local/28634901_1_mayor-bloomberg-teachers-union-ad-war

[russspeakeasy]

30. The whole interview was as big a crock of shit as the curveball

interview. Both were contrived, both were transparently
bullshit.

[Plucketeer]

35. The wife and I

watched this last night. She's a 30+ year veteran of the teaching profession, AND an officer in our schools teachers union. I will make sure she sees this thread tonight.
My wife busts her ass for what she gets paid, but it's the ignorance of little Johnny's mom and dad that set the attitude against what teachers deal with. In this day and age it's SO MUCH MORE than just presenting the material she's teaching. Hah! Her DREAM would be to ONLY have to teach - teaching obedient, respectful and engage students. The reality of her days are a never-ending battle to stop texting, having the class interrupted by ringing phones, and thwarting I-pod games. Since there's NO avenues or REAL (dire consequences for actions) discipline, she's forced to walk a delicate balance of civility and decorum in the face of disrespect to defiance. We won't even talk about the kids that come in and put their head down for a nap! And these are 10th & 12th graders.
With a truly MINESCULE number who want to succeed and DO the homework and STUDY to make the grade, most of them only panic about two days before the semester's over and their faced with having to do the classes over again. And she's gonna be "graded" on these kids "performance"??? Shit, many of them can't be bothered to put their name on the stuff they turn in.
And then, of course, to Arne and Obama's notion - every kid has two PERFECT parents to back their darling up. No matter if their darling is disruptive, disengaged or doped out...... HIS failings are HER fault. After all, she has said kid in her room for 45 minutes, five days a week (when they don't cut class) - she should be called into question!
Last open house night - wife was there from 6 to 9 (tiume she might otherwise have been able to rest a spell). NINE adults showed up to talk and see the classroom - this against the tally of one hundred and sixty-five kids that spend time in that classroom thru the course of her day.

Just this past week, there was a senior put on suspension for leaving campus at lunch time and then coming back late or not at all - repeatedly. The kid's dad showed up to argue that they were making an example of his son (trust me - they were not). Finally, the staff had to summon local police to escort the irate dad off campus. And said dad IS A LOCAL COP!!! So tell me again about how teachers have way too F'n cushy. Maybe those who say this, can't see the forest for their tea bags.

[madfloridian]

37. Give your wife my best.

I am glad I retired, and I don't think I could do it anymore. The disrespect has grown since Obama took office, and that breaks my heart. Did he intend it so? I don't know, but it is the reality.

[Plucketeer]

43. Thanks.

She has to do two more years to retire (with full retirement pay). I worry EACH DAY, that she's not going to make it - thru the day, thru two years.

I am gonna say that Obama wouldn't "intend" what's happened, but I strongly believe he's got THE WRONG guy in the ED seat!

[Sniper]

50. End of rope

I don't know how much longer I can stay. I'm facing yet another pay cut and everything is getting more expensive, plus the disrespect (from politicians, not children) has shot my morale to hell. I don't where I can take my M.Ed and ten years of experience. Starbucks?

[Plucketeer]

77. We understand!

My wife was lead negotiator at the bargaining table for three years. I begged her to let someone else have that position last year. Not that she was doing a bad job of it, but I couldn't stand to see the weight of that task taking the toll on her that it was. It would've been different if they'd had a chance to bargain for gain, but as it was, they were only trying to keep wages and health care from slipping any faster than could be helped! Presiding over THAT can bleaken anyone's days.

[peace frog]

66. I work with a former high school teacher

who left the profession after she was peed on. The student was miffed that she had the temerity to ask for his assignment and he didn't have it, so while her back was turned he whipped it out, took aim and let it fly. She resigned the next day, and eventually came to work in the community college system. I couldn't believe what I was hearing when she told me, but calmly assured me it is very common for K-12 teachers to be thus insulted and assaulted. Disgusting and unacceptable.

[Bozita]

36. "My neighbor has a cow and I have none, I want his cow to die."

Just might be the motto of the Scott Walker Fan Club.

[madfloridian]

40. The leadership of this school is most interesting.

http://www.tepcharter.org/leadership.php

Among them are a partner of The New Teacher Project which was founded by Michelle Rhee.

Also among the leadership is "one of the nation's leading advocates for private solutions to welfare dependency, ex-offender reentry initiatives and for meeting the needs of underserved, marginalized populations. Since founding America Works in 1984, Mr. Cove has worked to link private-sector investment and employment with welfare reform."

Interesting.

[boomerbust]

41. Watched it

Rave reviews for the charter school through the whole piece until the very end. Public school kids tested better. Ha Ha that was funny.

[Iris]

49. Every discussion of charter schools ends this way. Yet they are all the rage.

[perdita9]

51. I'm going to be very politically incorrect

If you were a teacher, which class would you want to take?

A. 25 Asian American kids
B 15 inner city Puertorican children

This isn't all about the teacher, a lot of it has to do with the students. One semester every year I teacher Honor's Biology and I always joke to my boss that he should pay me less because those students are easy: they show up on time, do their homework, study, ask questions, etc.

Trying to motivate a student who doesn't care can be nearly impossible.

[soleiri]

55. easy, I'd take the 15 students.

The ethnicity doesn't matter.
With 15 students I can look at the needs of the individual students.
As the number of students increase, the individual student becomes less of a focus.

It's interesting that private schools ( with higher income parents) mostly have smaller class sizes,
yet the deformers are advocating large class sizes for poor and/or minority students in public and charter schools.

The method of teaching (group think, clap, clap, stomp, stomp, are you with me?) that is advocated for low income children seems to be an authoritarian style of learning, which will produce obedience, which is exactly what the corporatists want.

[Starry Messenger]

56. The 15 kids, in a heartbeat.

Maybe the so-called "unmotivated" kids would be motivated with a teacher who had lavish amounts of time to spend with them. Kids begin to not care when they don't feel cared for. Early intervention and small classes with at-risk kids would def. give a teacher a leg up in the classroom.

[Sniper]

61. Easy.

I made my choice. My classes are small (12-20) and made up of kids with a multitude of issues from PTSD to English acquisition. I've also taught much larger classes in Asia. I'm not concerned about the student population so much as I am about administrative support and parent involvement. Without those things, you're screwed before you begin, IMO.

[Scuba]

59. Before I will consider any arguments from Charter School....

...advocates, I want to know how many special ed kids they accept.

Are they taking the little girl with spina bifida?

The little boy with cerebral palsy?

Cognitavely disabled kids?

Learning disabled kids?


If not, shut the fuck up.



(edited for spelling)

[Rage for Order]

62. Are public school teachers willing to say "give me 4 years..."

"And if there is not noticeable improvement then we shouldn't keep our jobs"? And then stick to their promise, come what may?

[soleiri]

63. Do public school teachers

get to decide the curriculum or decide who is allowed in the classroom/school?

And frankly, I don't believe that he will willingly give up control of the school, unless of course he gets a better offer.
Maybe by then Cathie Black will retire and he will fail up to NY city Chancellor of public schools.

[Rage for Order]

65. You can't answer a question with a question

That's called deflecting. And anyway, we spend more money per pupil than almost every other country in the world, and have done so for several decades, yet our education system keeps lagging farther and farther behind other developed countries. How many more years (decades?) should we allow the current system to continue before we demand better results?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_spe_per_sec_sch_stu-spending-per-secondary-school-student

Rank Countries Amount
# 1 Switzerland: $9,348.00 per student
# 2 Austria: $8,163.00 per student
# 3 United States: $7,764.00 per student
# 4 Norway: $7,343.00 per student
# 5 Denmark: $7,200.00 per student
# 6 France: $6,605.00 per student
# 7 Italy: $6,458.00 per student
# 8 Germany: $6,209.00 per student
# 9 Japan: $5,890.00 per student
# 10 Australia: $5,830.00 per student
# 11 Sweden: $5,648.00 per student
# 12 Netherlands: $5,304.00 per student
# 13 United Kingdom: $5,230.00 per student
# 14 Israel: $5,115.00 per student
# 15 Portugal: $4,636.00 per student
# 16 Spain: $4,274.00 per student
# 17 Ireland: $3,934.00 per student
# 18 Greece: $3,287.00 per student
# 19 Czech Republic: $3,182.00 per student
# 20 Hungary: $2,140.00 per student
# 21 Thailand: $1,177.00 per student
Weighted average: $5,463.67 per student

[AnotherMother4Peace]

75. NCLB skews class test scores: sp.ed. & 2nd language students scores are factored in - so no child is

left behind which is asinine, and is done for no other reason than to set the students and teachers up for failure. No more no less.

The scores are totally false.

[soleiri]

84. okay, I'll try to answer

But first, I want to know how you measure teacher effectiveness? (another deflection!)

Personally, I wouldn't look at my students standardized test scores and quit if they were low.

but you asked, "Are public school teachers willing to say 'give me 4 years...''
Considering how many teachers quit in the first few years, I'd imagine a few of them felt that way.

[madfloridian]

76. They are not given that option. It's becoming produce now or you're gone.

How dare that principal ask for 4 years when he knows public teachers are being assaulted nonstop.

[Blacksheep214]

64. From No Child Left Behind

to I can afford to school mine, screw you!

This country has gone to hell!

[Blacksheep214]

67. One more thing

American kids could give a rats ass about education. The white ones don't care, the minority ones get crummy opportunities and the Asians got it right.

It's the way we are. Sad, innit?

[Alcibiades]

79. I wouldn't be so blithe about Asian students, either

Within three generations, they become just like the rest of American kids.

[dballance]

68. It CAN be done in a year!!!

My former partner was the principal at the poverty K-6 school at the bottom of his district. The students had over 70% free and reduced lunches. Some got breakfast as well. If you don't understand what that statistic means it means these kids are DIRT POOR. If there is a mom and dad in the home they don't have time to sit down and read with the kids. In fact, most of the homes probably don't even have books - maybe a Bible but that's not what I'd use to teach reading.

The school got a grant to help them improve reading. They took action and hired reading coaches. They tested all the kids and implemented "walk to reading" which is where the kids leave their normal classroom and go to reading in another class with kids who are on the same reading level.

Their scores went from most kids failing to read at their grade level to most kids reading at their grade level within a YEAR. Now they're working on math skills by adding math coaches and programs.

It can be done when the teachers and the staff are there because it's their passion and not because it's a cushy $125,000/yr job.

[KoKo]

69. It's AWFUL...they MARCH FORWARD with THEIR AGENDA...like we Dems aren't Out Here!

How can this BE? I've been working and voting for Dems my whole life... I don't want to say how old I am...but it's GENERATIONS!

How could we have failed this badly! I raised my daughter to understand all of this: Union Movement, Women's and Workers Rights. She LOVED Mr. ROGERS!...She was theatrical in plays like "Hair" and "Godspell." I can't get her to understand YET...but, I'm working on it.

WE MUST OVERCOME THIS! I think we will....but it will be very difficult. I feel we were let down all along the way. THIS "NEW MOVEMENT" must not let us be "let down" or "Divert US" from what we hoped to achieve all these years ago. That we MOVE BACKWARD...NOT FORWARD is the result of the Political Parties we have Affiliated Ourselves with ALL THESE YEARS.

TIME FOR: Something ELSE......... :cry: (as a lifelong Dem...betrayed)

[WCGreen]

70. I liked the approah, but it was taken to the extreme....

70-80 hours of work. Get rid of all the support staff.

silly.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

72. This was an infomercial with many false & uncontested claims - 60 Minutes FAILED with this one.

[jimlup]

73. Has anyone seen "A Race to Nowhere?"

I highly recommend it. It seems to me that it fits this situation well. It doesn't matter how hard you "drive" the teachers, you lose creativity. These idiots just think they can fix what's broken with more pressure on the teachers be it from ultra-teachers paid $140K but forced to work in a draconian feudal system of "perform according to them" or die.

Administrators are idiots! I know that there are bad teachers but, the problem that these shit head administrators have is they have no clue how to identify the right ones. And everything that they try to do will backfire because it will only stress the system more.

[a2liberal]

74. K&R (n/t)

[Alcibiades]

80. Why is he getting so much attention?

In part because of the agenda to axe public education, to be sure, but also because it's in New York. Something can happen in Missouri, and the national media will never notice, but if something happens in New York, it's news the next day. Why? Because the national media are lazy.