The Use of Solitary Confinement & Nudity

[Solly Mack]

2009

Hellhole

The United States holds tens of thousands of inmates in long-term solitary confinement. Is this torture?

by Atul Gawande


"A U.S. military study of almost a hundred and fifty naval aviators returned from imprisonment in Vietnam, many of whom were treated even worse than McCain, reported that they found social isolation to be as torturous and agonizing as any physical abuse they suffered.

And what happened to them was physical. EEG studies going back to the nineteen-sixties have shown diffuse slowing of brain waves in prisoners after a week or more of solitary confinement. In 1992, fifty-seven prisoners of war, released after an average of six months in detention camps in the former Yugoslavia, were examined using EEG-like tests. The recordings revealed brain abnormalities months afterward; the most severe were found in prisoners who had endured either head trauma sufficient to render them unconscious or, yes, solitary confinement. Without sustained social interaction, the human brain may become as impaired as one that has incurred a traumatic injury."

2011

International Rehabilitation Council for Torture Victims.

Long-term solitary confinement: a method of torture

Medical evidence has shown that long-term solitary confinement is a form of torture. Dr Joost J den Otter, Medical Director at the International Rehabilitation Council for Torture Victims (IRCT), adds that while there is no doubt about the damage caused by long periods of isolation, solitary confinement for a short period may also cause psychological harm.

A recent commentary published by the Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law about solitary confinement and mental illness in U.S. Prisons, the authors, Jeffrey L. Metzner and Jamie Fellner, support Dr den Otter’s judgment.


“Isolation can be psychologically harmful to any prisoner, with the nature and severity of the impact depending on the individual, the duration of confinement, and particular conditions (e.g., access to natural light, books, or radio). Psychological effects can include anxiety, depression, anger, cognitive disturbances, perceptual distortions, obsessive thoughts, paranoia, and psychosis”.


In August 2010, Physicians for Human Rights published a report (Experiments in Torture) which added to the growing body of evidence that solitary confinement causes psychological harm consistent with torture. In an interview with ‘Life’s Little Mysteries’, Dr Scott Allen, one of the authors of the paper, said that solitary confinement “can lead to anxiety, depression, certainly disorientation, it can even lead to thought disorders including psychotic thoughts.” He added "The consequences can be significant."

2004

Red Cross:Guantanamo Tactics 'Tantamount to Torture'

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has accused the U.S. military of using tactics "tantamount to torture" on prisoners at the U.S. Navy base in Guantanamo Bay, The New York Times reported on Tuesday.

The Times said the Red Cross investigators had found a system devised to break the will of prisoners through "humiliating acts, solitary confinement, temperature extremes, use of forced positions."

"The construction of such a system, whose stated purpose is the production of intelligence, cannot be considered other than an intentional system of cruel, unusual and degrading treatment and a form of torture," the Times quoted the report as saying.


MORE

2009

Current Conditions at Guantanamo Bay

Solitary Confinement

The majority of men held in Guantanamo Bay are held in maximum security facilities, Camp 5 and Camp 6 as well as Camp Echo. The small cells are made from steel and concrete. Food is delivered through a metal slot in the door. If the men yell loud enough, they can speak with each other, but to do so risks punishment. Weeks can go by without the men seeing sunlight. The everyday reality for these men is sensory deprivation, environmental manipulation and sleep deprivation, not to mention the daily psychological and physical torment. Toothbrushes, blankets, soap and deodorant are considered privileges, so can be taken away as a form of punishment. ‘Recreation’ for ‘compliant detainees’ consists of two to four hours outside the cell, sometimes in the middle of the night so the men do not see sunlight or have any contact with any living thing. In Camp 6, ‘recreation’ time is spent in a pen surrounded by two storey high concrete walls with wire across the top.

“I am in my tomb.”

Abdelli Feghoul, camp 6 who was cleared for release in 2006

The psychological effects of solitary confinement can include hallucinations, extreme anxiety, hostility, confusion and concentration problems. The physical effects include muscular atrophy, weight loss and impaired eyesight.

FULL REPORT

Open Letter: The Solitary Confinement of PFC Bradley Manning

As an organization of psychologists and other mental health professionals, PsySR is aware that solitary confinement can have severely deleterious effects on the psychological well-being of those subjected to it.

As expressed by Dr. Craig Haney, a psychologist and expert in the assessment of institutional environments, "Empirical research on solitary and supermax-like confinement has consistently and unequivocally documented the harmful consequences of living in these kinds of environments . . . Evidence of these negative psychological effects comes from personal accounts, descriptive studies, and systematic research on solitary and supermax-type confinement, conducted over a period of four decades, by researchers from several different continents who had diverse backgrounds and a wide range of professional expertise... irect studies of prison isolation have documented an extremely broad range of harmful psychological reactions. These effects include increases in the following potentially damaging symptoms and problematic behaviors: negative attitudes and affect, insomnia, anxiety, panic, withdrawal, hypersensitivity, ruminations, cognitive dysfunction, hallucinations, loss of control, irritability, aggression, and rage, paranoia, hopelessness, lethargy, depression, a sense of impending emotional breakdown, self-mutilation, * and suicidal ideation and behavior" (pp. 130-131, references removed).

Dr. Haney concludes, "To summarize, there is not a single published study of solitary or supermax-like confinement in which non-voluntary confinement lasting for longer than 10 days where participants were unable to terminate their isolation at will that failed to result in negative psychological effects" (p. 132).

( * So is the United States government setting up the circumstances to induce "suicidal ideation" and then claiming Manning is being subjected (stripped naked) to degrading and humiliating treatment for his own protection?)


CIA's Combined Use of Interrogation Techniques

20th hijacker was tortured, judge says

The top Bush administration official in charge of deciding whether to bring Guantanamo Bay prisoners to trial has concluded that the U.S. military tortured a Saudi citizen who allegedly planned to participate in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, interrogating him with techniques that included sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, nudity and prolonged exposure to cold, leaving him in a life-threatening condition.

"We tortured (Mohammed al-) Qahtani," said Susan Crawford, in her first interview since being named convening authority of military commissions by Defense Secretary Robert Gates in February 2007. "His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case" for prosecution.

U.N. to investigate treatment of Bradley Manning

Article

Article

Prohibitions against cruel and unusual punishment; torture and other degrading and humiliating treatment.

Common Article 3

Convention Against Torture

8th Amendment

Article 55, UCMJ

U.S. State Department: Country Reports on Human Rights Practices list "lengthy pretrial and sometimes incommunicado detention" as a human rights abuse. (It also list "Security services detained individuals without formal charges and held them indefinitely without court convictions.)

The Reports also list, under "Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment" -

"Reported techniques included beatings with fists, sticks, and rifle butts; kicking; scalding with hot water; excessively tight handcuffs; prolonged blindfolding and suspension by the wrists or ankles; denial of water or access to toilets; burning with cigarettes; stripping naked; denial of food and prompt access to medical help; threats of sexual abuse; and death threats. Sleep deprivation and solitary confinement were other forms of abuse reported in PSO prisons."

The report for 2010 is due out any minute now.

[myrna minx]

1. Thanks Solly - This is appalling and not what I voted for. K&R n/t

[Solly Mack]

2. You're welcome, myrna minx.

:hi:

[myrna minx]

12. A kick for Bradley Manning.

:hi:

[Solly Mack]

13. Thanks, again.

:)

:hi:

I hope people read it all. It explains how the combination of tactics are used to weaken the resistance of detainees/prisoners. To wear them down...so much so they can suffer actual physical changes in their brain.

There's a lot more as well.

[Bandit]

3. But Obama said we don't torture people...

I don't think he understands what the word means...He certainly is not holding the Bush* Cabal accountable for obvious torture so he either agrees with such activities or is ignorant. for a ten dimensional chess player to be ignorant is sort of unheard of..

[Solly Mack]

7. The UN special rapporteur on torture reminded Obama (again)

that the U.S. needs to investigate the Bush administration's crimes.

UN expert urges 'serious' US probe of torture

[rgbecker]

4. This is all we need to know now about the Manning issue.

The guy has been charged with a non violent crime and should be released on bail until his trial. Your enlightening post about solitary confinement is much apreciated and adds much to think about for even those who think the guy is guilty of treason, that is, if they are at all reasonable.

[Solly Mack]

8. It wouldn't matter what he was being charged with -

he has the right to due process and all the protections that allows. I know you didn't say otherwise, I'm just making a statement - your post got me to thinking along other lines.


Thank you!!

[Mojeoux]

15. Now the Naked thing......Thought Manning's Treatment was already heinous

Cruel and freaky unusual.

[Solly Mack]

21. They say they take his clothes away to protect him...to prevent

"self injury"...yet they allow him 2 blankets at night.

(Because he couldn't possibly hang himself with blankets...if they're really worried about self injury, that is)

"Pfc. Bradley E. Manning, the Army intelligence analyst accused of leaking government files to WikiLeaks, will be stripped of his clothing every night as a “precautionary measure” to prevent him from injuring himself, an official at the Marine brig at Quantico, Va., said on Friday.

Lieutenant Villiard, who says Private Manning is permitted to have two blankets at night..."

[Bonhomme Richard]

5. To make matter worse. Those guards leave the military and become....

Cops.
A friend of mine that was in the military said that if a guy couldn't do anything right they made him an MP.

[Solly Mack]

9. Quite a few ex-military go into law enforcement and some into

corrections. That much is true.

[RufusTFirefly]

6. I love how leaders who don't hesitate to leaven their speeches with mentions of God...

... miraculously shift into legalese when defending their morally indefensible positions on torture.

[Solly Mack]

10. I've noticed that too...from some.

God this, God that, moral this, moral that, good v. evil.....until they've been caught at something. Course, then you hear about how God forgives....so it's OK to do whatever. (apparently)...besides, my lawyer told me so.

[Solly Mack]

11. .-. . .- -..

[Solly Mack]

72. .

[Luminous Animal]

14. Thank you for putting this together. Great post on a terrible subject.

[Solly Mack]

19. You're welcome,Luminous Animal

[Octafish]

16. Bush the Younger's minions destroyed Padilla's mind.

Very few stood up to be counted then, same as today.

Had they, things might be very different.

Outstanding post, Solly Mack. Thank you.

[Solly Mack]

17. I thought about Jose Padilla while getting the thread ready.

There's so much more I could have added.

You're welcome, Octafish.

[DeSwiss]

18. K&R

People of conscience need to.....

[Solly Mack]

22. Thank you,DeSwiss

[bemildred]

20. K&R. nt

[Solly Mack]

23. Thank you, bemildred. n/t

I lied.

:hi:

[Agony]

24. and Stop putting bags over peoples heads... I'm sick of seeing US act like barbarians...

When did it become passé to be civilized?

:mad: :grr: :nuke:

Thanks for your time putting that post together, Solly. I will spend some time reading the stuff I haven't seen yet that you linked to...

Cheers
Agony

[Solly Mack]

26. Some info on hooding

from 2002

"U.S. under fire for treatment of detainees: critics abroad cite inhumane conditions, ambiguous legal status of prisoners - Nation - Afghanistan prisoners of war


Amnesty International spokesman Alistair Hodgett said hooding prisoners during detention violates principles set down by the U.N. General Assembly that prisoners should not be deprived of their natural senses. Hooding is of concern, said Hodgett, because mistreated prisoners who are hooded or blindfolded cannot identify those who abused them."




from 2003

"Hooding is a form of sensory deprivation. It is disorientating, frightening and possibly dangerous for those subject to it (particularly when their hands are also tied). Hooding also serves to dehumanise the person subjected to it, possibly leading to rougher treatment at the hands of his captors. Indeed, television footage of British troops escorting hooded suspects did not show them acting with much solicitude. Hooding has often been used as a "softening up" technique prior to interrogation. The fact that it is being practised by British troops does not give one confidence as to their behaviour once the cameras stop rolling and interrogation starts.

In adopting the practice, the British army seems to be following the Americans, who were photographed hooding al-Qaeda suspects in Afghanistan. US interrogation techniques have been extensively condemned. The Washington Post has reported that al-Qaeda suspects detained at Bagram air base, in Afghanistan, have been subjected to treatment that clearly amounts to torture under international law.

The last time British security forces hooded suspects was as one of the so-called "five techniques" used in Northern Ireland in the early 1970s. The four other techniques were wall-standing, subjection to white noise, and deprivation of sleep and of food and drink. These "five techniques" were found by the European court of human rights to constitute inhuman treatment, in breach of the UK's obligations under the European convention on human rights. British forces' present conduct similarly risks being in breach of our international obligations.

British troops are in occupation of southern Iraq; accordingly they have obligations towards Iraqi civilians under the fourth Geneva convention. They are also obliged to treat members of the Iraqi armed forces in accordance with the third Geneva convention. Both provide that persons in the power of occupying forces must be treated humanely. Hooding detainees may well violate these obligations."



UN Convention Against Torture review of the US practices Page 8, Line 52 - where it is asked how the US reconciles the use of hooding (and other methods) with its treaty obligation, Article 16, CAT.



You're welcome!

[Zax2me]

25. Thanks for getting all this together

K&R!

[Solly Mack]

27. You're welcome!

[leftstreet]

28. K&R

Thank you for putting this together and posting it here

At first, I just didn't want to read it

:cry:


But I'm glad I did

:grr:

[Solly Mack]

29. Thanks, leftstreet

It's a disturbing read.

[defendandprotect]

30. US has political prisoners and we're torturing them --

[Solly Mack]

42. I think every allegation should be investigated. I always think that, of course.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=617422&mesg_id=623187

[Dystopian]

31. KandR.

Thank you.


peace~

[Solly Mack]

34. Thank you,Dystopian

and to you (peace)

[Luminous Animal]

32. Kick. I remember just a few short years ago when torture was unacceptable.

I guess Rush Limbaugh was right. Torture is just like a frat house prank.

[Ichingcarpenter]

33. Thank you Solly..... Now how can anyone defend this shit?

I'm pissed a DUers that buy the bar of soap
and wash this shit that the Obama administration does.

[Solly Mack]

37. I think the U.S. government has lost the right to say "Take us at our word"

and we lost that right because of Bush and we cemented that loss with a lack of prosecutions under Obama.

You don't get to torture people and pretend it didn't happen or claim those who did the torturing had a good reason for committing war crimes/crimes against humanity.

There is no putting it all behind us with an election. There is no putting it all behind us by decreeing it is all in the past.

It just doesn't work that way.

I know an argument can be made that the U.S. government lost that right a long time ago - but what just boggles the mind is this - the Bush years weren't something that occurred in the long ago past and it is now too late to prosecute the guilty. The Bush years are still very much with us and it's not too late to prosecute. It's not too late to do something about it.

And I think the mindset nurtured under Bush is still very much with us. The idea that labeling everything just one more fight in the "war on terror" justifies any action as long as government declares something in the interests of national security. Whether "national security" is used as an excuse for spying on Americans, sending people off to a 3rd country for interrogation, withholding evidence in a trial, detaining people indefinitely - and how we treat certain military prisoners. (American prisons themselves are a study in abusive tactics)

America is still hiding behind - and operating under - the lies and narrative created by the Bush administration.

A narrative rife with abuse and the potential for abuse.


We can't just sit back and pretend an allegation of abuse can be scoffed at or shrugged off - or claim the treatment justified. When we do, we invite more abuse...and much worse.

[Bragi]

35. Thanks for this

America's horrific and perverse prison system is routinely torturous, inhumane and needs to be exposed.

I wish Michael Moore would take it on as a documentary project.

[Solly Mack]

40. You're welcome, Bragi.

[EFerrari]

36. Looks like March 20 is being organized as Internat'l Support Bradley Manning Day.

2011-03-11: International Bradley Manning Support Day
Submitted by x7o on Sat, 03/12/2011 - 07:27

March 20th, 2011 is International Bradley Manning Support Day. It will see coordinated rallies all over the world in support of Manning, the alleged whistleblower incarcerated under cruel and inhumane conditions in a marine brig in Quantico, Virginia.

Since Manning was arrested 10 months ago, and began to endure solitary confinement, international support and advocacy of his cause has grown. This has intensified in the last few months, when the full import of the Wikileaks releases - which Manning is accused of having leaked - began to dawn on the international citizenry.

The official policy towards Manning, however, has not alleviated, but intensified. In the last month, Manning was subjected to even more unusual treatment in Quantico, and an array of new charges opened up the possibility of a death sentence.

The United States government has not been persuaded of the gravity of its transgressions against Manning. It is therefore necessary to escalate the campaign for Manning, globally, and show that our support is unswerving, through articulate, peaceful and resolute demonstration.

Please visit our Bradley Manning Action page, at http://wlcentral.org/bradley-manning, and in particular, consult the Offline Action Calendar, to see if there is already an International Bradley Manning Support Day Rally near you. If there is not, consider organizing one yourself. If you do, make sure to publicize your efforts by contacting WL Central, by contacting the Bradley Manning Support Network, by tweeting @popularch, and on this facebook page.

http://wlcentral.org/node/1461

Hot links at link

[Solly Mack]

39. Thanks, EFerrari!

[tekisui]

38. knr! Great post.

[Solly Mack]

41. Thank you, tekisui

[OnyxCollie]

43. K&R. nt

[Solly Mack]

44. Thank you, OnyxCollie

[chill_wind]

45. K & R. Thanks Solly. And never let it be forgotten that Yoo and Bybee

got their complete get out of jail free card at last from the Obama/Holder DOJ-- and live and work freely among us now, deprived of nothing or a right to do it again. There were no criminal penalties.
No penalties of any kind. Not even ones of professional misconduct.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/20/us/politics/20justice.html

[Solly Mack]

46. Thank you,chill_wind and you're welcome.

Oh...I'm not forgetting and I don't mind bringing it up that America's war criminals are still free. In fact, I'm going to bring up until they're imprisoned...and if they're never imprisoned, I'm gonna be thorn about that too.

[chill_wind]

47. Me too, Solly. And I forgot to add the Holder DOJ free pass

for the CIA destruction of the 92 torture tapes.


Tue Nov. 9, 2010
http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/11/no-charges-torture-tape-destruction

And unlike Bradley Manning, our government decided they too, and the actors in the tapes, should never see the inside of a prison cell, much less solitary confinement, sensory deprivation and nudity

Thank you again for the thread. The despicable and raging disconnect of what our government says about who we are -- and what our government actually does-- continues on in full display for the world.

[Solly Mack]

49. Manning should say he leaked the documents in "good faith"

Won't work for him, of course.

Thank you, chill_wind.

[chill_wind]

50. Good faith- and simply "bad judgment"! It worked for those f*@kers, afterall.

(Final OPR) Yoo & Bybee-Lawyers Behind 'Torture Memos'-Will Not Face Disbarment/Criminal Punishment
Feb 2010
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4276168

But David Margolis, the career official in charge of overseeing the Office of Professional Responsibility, overruled that finding, Shapiro says. Now the report concludes the two men "exercised poor judgment." As a result, Bybee and Yoo do not face criminal charges or disbarment.

Bad judgment in the sense that he didn't fully appreciate a realization that under our govt in America, it would have been more forgivable and better rewarded to be committing war crimes than exposing them.

[Solly Mack]

51. Exactly. Maybe he can say his lawyer told him it was OK.

That works too. (for some)

[EFerrari]

52. No kidding.

lol

[chill_wind]

55. Or maybe we could at least say "This is a time for reflection and not retribution."

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE April 16, 2009

Statement of President Barack Obama on Release of OLC Memos

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Statement-of-President-Barack-Obama-on-Release-of-OLC-Memos/

Bradley Manning is experiencing and facing further retribution in the extreme.

Unlike war criminals of all ranks and stations.

[EFerrari]

56. "Turn the page" works, also "look forward, not back".

:)

[Solly Mack]

57. Unless you're Indonesia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcZEpDN5ThI. The 1 minute, 30 seconds mark

This is an interview with Obama on CNN Espanol

April 15, 2009

Q Spanish judge Baltasar Garzón is considering a lawsuit filed by attorneys representing six Spaniards who were at one point held at Guantanamo. And that lawsuit wants to go after President Bush's legal team. What is your reaction to that?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, you know, obviously I've been very clear that Guantanamo is to be closed, that some of the practices of enhanced interrogation techniques I think ran counter to American values and American traditions. So I've put an end to these policies.

I'm a strong believer that it's important to look forward and not backwards, and to remind ourselves that we do have very real security threats out there.

So I have not had direct conversations with the Spanish government about these issues. My team has been in communications with them. I think that we are moving a process forward here in the United States to understand what happened, but also to focus on how we make sure that the manner in which we operate currently is consistent with our values and our traditions.

And so my sense is, is that this will be worked out over time.


Which takes us back to Wikileaks: Spain's investigation into torture/abuse by US officials.

A "confidential" April 17, 2009, cable sent from the US embassy in Madrid to the State Department

[EFerrari]

60. The administration is looking forward by re-funding Kopassus in Indonesia.

US Lifts Ban on Training Indonesian Special Forces Unit

The Obama administration has lifted a twelve-year-old ban on the training of the notorious Indonesian military unit known as Kopassus. Defense Secretary Robert Gates made the announcement in Jarkata after meeting with Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono. Gates said the lifting of the ban does not "signal any lessening of the importance we place on human rights and accountability." But the move has been condemned by many human rights groups. John Miller is the national coordinator of the East Timor & Indonesia Action Network.

John Miller: "Kopassus is Indonesia’s notorious special forces. Any of the major events of the last thirty, forty, fifty years in Indonesia—human rights violations by the Indonesian military from Suharto’s seizure of power in 1965 to the invasion and occupation of East Timor to ongoing conflict in West Papua—Kopassus troops have been among the leading human rights violators."

John Miller went on to say resumed US training of Kopassus would violate the Leahy Law, which prohibits military assistance to units with unresolved human rights violations.

John Miller: "The Bush administration, which had raised the issue of training Kopassus a few years ago, even their State Department said it would violate the Leahy Law. What has change in the last two years is not clear to us."

from these 7/23/2010 headlines http://www.democracynow.org/2010/7/23/headlines#4

[Solly Mack]

63. Thanks for adding that.

and to think he said Indonesia should be looking backward to past abuses as the only way to go forward....(the youtube link)


I guess that's just what happened ...in a manner of speaking.

[chill_wind]

61. Yes.

What we've got right here are the appearances of a very bipartisan style retribution, you bet.

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/2010/12/02/wikileaks-cables-reveal-obama-administration-tried-to-thwart-torture-prosecutions/

[Solly Mack]

64. Note the timeline from the interview with CNN Espanol and the mentioned cable

April, 15/April, 17 - 2009.

[chill_wind]

67. And... notice the timeframe last month between Spain's announcement

to proceed

2/25
http://jurist.org/paperchase/2011/02/spain-court-allows-guantanamo-torture-investigation-to-continue.php

and DOJ suddenly but quietly drops direct defense of Rumsfeld et al like a scorching hot potato.

2/22
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49998.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x589928

[Solly Mack]

68. LOL! Thank you!!!!

[nashville_brook]

48. damn, i'm bookmarking this

[xchrom]

53. Recommend

[Solly Mack]

58. Thank you, xchrom

[hulka38]

54. Thanks for your work and time on this.

K&R

[Solly Mack]

59. You're welcome.

[ReggieVeggie]

62. where are the cheerleaders?

I guess they're getting their links together

[Autumn]

65. My God, what have we become that this is allowed.

I wish I could recommend this a million times. Thank you.

[Solly Mack]

66. and we can't forget that our entire prison system allows for

solitary confinement.

It's a problem no matter how you look at it. One that needs to be addressed.

I know some people think that if you're found guilty of some crime then you get what you deserve but that kind of thinking gets you Bush and Cheney and Yoo and Bybee and Rove and Gonzales and Mukasey and Rumsfeld and Gates and Haynes and Addington and Cambone and Hadley and Rice and Ashcroft and Powell and Abu Ghraib and GTMO and Camp Cropper and black sites and Tenet and Goss and Negroponte and Hayden and CIA torture manuals so on and so forth.

Manning hasn't been convicted of anything. Allegations of abuse have been made - given the government's history and the DOD's history, those allegations must be investigated and not simply brushed aside.

Assurances aren't good enough. Internal investigations aren't good enough. Been there, done that - and government and its agencies lied.

[amyrose2712]

69. Infuriating! I don't know if I could be more disappointed. nt

[amyrose2712]

70. Thank you for posting this.

[Solly Mack]

71. You're welcome.

and Thank you!