How sad is this? Obama APPROVES of Manning torture

[Bragi]

From this morning:

Tapper: The State Department Spokesman PJ Crowley said the treatment of Bradley Manning by the Pentagon is “ridiculous and counterproductive and stupid,” and I’m wondering if you agree with that. Thank you sir.

Obama: With respect to Private Manning, I have actually asked the Pentagon whether or not the procedures that have been taken in terms of his confinement are appropriate and are meeting our basic standards. They assure me that they are. I can’t go into details about some of their concerns, but some of this has to do with Private Manning’s safety as well.

Tapper: Do you disagree with PJ Crowley?

Obama: I think I gave you an answer to the substantive issue.

Video here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x561857

[JokerAllstar]

1. It's very sad

[villager]

9. It is -- that all that "hope" and "change" have come to this...

n/t

[Mojeoux]

176. The NAKED Thing?

That is BS

There is a mean streak in the Military and the DOJ and all the spies agencies, and the treatment of Bradley Manning has proved their vindictive Agenda.

These rotten forces of power could not have any influence on the next election do they?
:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[DJ13]

2. Chains you can believe in

[tblue]

25. And bereave in.

I really could just cry.

[Gold Metal Flake]

3. Obama's own words unrecced.

Interesting.

[Inuca]

18. Actually

it's the OP's interpretation/spinning of Obama's words that are being unrecommended. By me at least.

[EFerrari]

24. There is no other construction one can put on it.

He had an opportunity to express opposition and he did not. What conclusion do you draw?

[tblue]

27. Please tell us which of his words you would recommend.

Love to hear it. Really.

[pacalo]

187. No spin. It's there on video.

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

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[Rex]

4. Jesus Obama you are a Harvard law professor!

You trust the Pentagon...nm. Pointless.

[Renew Deal]

5. He's saying that Manning is suicidal and that's why they he doesn't always have sheets

and clothes.

[Bragi]

7. You should read up on the subject

The suicide watch scam is easily-disproven total bullshit.

[Renew Deal]

15. That's not my point

That's what this means. "but some of this has to do with Private Manning’s safety as well."

[roguevalley]

146. 'some of this'. not all of it? He's so sad. what a sad man.

if its not about his safety then what? Torture is just another day in the office for our guy. keeping innocent people in dog kennels for the rest of their lives is just business as usual. sad beyond belief.

[Rex]

39. Anyone that knows how the game is played, knows they are torturing Manning.

They set up the conditions for him to get depressed and then striped him of his humanity (clothing) to make him suicidal, then say he is suicidal. Wash, rinse, repeat until he kills himself or dies from depression and/or pneumonia.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Stripping Manning of his clothes will certainly cheer him up and banish any suicidal tendencies.

Donchya just love military logic?

[bobbolink]

86. Yup, it is the demonstration of sanity at work.

Kinda like... "You are homeless because you don't have money for a place to live. We don't feel like spending money to make sure everyone has a decent place to live. You are depressed because you don't have a place to live, so we are going to lock you up to protect you. Yes, we have lots of money to lock you up, but none to provide an actual place to live."

The mental health logic is impeccable.

[treestar]

201. Well if you do not agree with that, it's a different thing

If you have expertise on handling this sort of issue, shouldn't you be working for change in that area?

Or do you really have no idea what you are talking about?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

207. Actually, I do have experience in the area.

10 years worth of it.

You?

[treestar]

216. then what is to be done to prevent suicides?

Give facts, we can't just agree with you due to your claiming expertise on the internets.

Why would the federal government not know about preventing prison suicides, where random posters on the internets do?

What are they doing wrong and what is the proper way to deal with it?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

218. How about they consult psychiatrists about his mental health rather than brig guards?

And, if he is truly a suicide risk, treat him for mental illness rather than torture and humiliate him. And, if he is found not to be mentally ill and not a danger to society return him to duty until trial.

I have worked with suicidal people and never considered locking them in a room alone, forcing them to strip, or make them stand at attention while being perused by brig guards.

Call me a bleeding heart that thinks dehumanizing people is not good for their mental health.

[truebrit71]

14. ..although not a single doctor has actually said that...

...which makes it rather curious...

[Renew Deal]

16. And you know this how???

:shrug:

[truebrit71]

56. Please see link. Last paragraph.."found he was not a danger to himself"...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/11/stripped-naked-bradley-manning-prison

[xphile]

111. In fact the doctors say the opposite.

This "suicide watch" is merely an excuse to find ways to further humiliate him. Meanwhile, a soldier who was convicted of killing civilians in Afghanistan and taking body parts as trophies was sentenced to a mere 60 days hard labor. And Manning has been locked up and not yet convicted for how long now?

This is getting ridiculous. And I can't believe the people making excuses for Obama's lame ass response. (Not that I'm saying you're doing that. I'm just consolidating my answers into on post.)

[EFerrari]

22. There is no doctor's report that Manning is suicidal.

In fact, the record shows doctors consistently saying he is not suicidal.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4765563&mesg_id=4765614

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

64. Bullshit. There is zero excuse to mistreat Manning. nt

[Renew Deal]

92. Those are different issues.

One issues is whether he is actually suicidal or if this is some sort of punishment.
The other issue is whether the measures taken for his "safety" are reasonable.

[EFerrari]

104. There is no doctor's report that desinates him as suicidal.

In fact, the record consistently shows otherwise.

And that makes the second question moot.

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

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[EFerrari]

136. Here's a link for you. And yours goes nowhere.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4765563&mesg_id=4765614

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treestar]

202. Is that required under the law?

And my same question that has still gone unanswered: if Manning were released from this "torture" but then did kill himself, there would be no blame assigned to the government or the President, is that correct?

[EFerrari]

209. Only doctors can diagnose and prescribe.

And yes, Manning's welfare is the responsibility of the agency holding him in custody, you bet.

[dogday]

213. Is he on any medication? That would be an indicating

factor of his mental health, and I don't remember seeing or hearing that he is taking any medication whatsoever. What DR. would say a patient is suicidal and not prescribe anti-depressants for him? In fact when discussing his situation on the news, the pentegon rep never mentioned that any DR. put him on suicide watch, only that he was put on suicide watch. Also they never mentioned Dr.s at all

[treestar]

215. So you will be blaming the government no matter what

If he kills himself, it's their fault for not preventing it. If they take steps to prevent it, then they are "torturing" him.

[chill_wind]

131. "That page has gone AWOL." n/t

[gkhouston]

117. Well alrighty then. As long as we can find a doctor to say someone's not

suicidal, we can treat them like shit. Release the hounds!

[robinlynne]

172. the problem is, the prison psychologist disagrees. officially.

[pacalo]

188. The psychiatrist who evaluated Bradley said he was *not* suicidal.

And the doctor spoke against the treatment to which Bradley is being subjected.

[JackRiddler]

220. And you're saying no matter how bad the bullshit, you follow a leader and a team, not principles.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. A pathetic justification of the violation of human rights for whistleblower who revealed war crimes.

[JoePhilly]

8. I read the PJ Crowly quote aover and over, and the word "torture"

does not appear in it.

DO you have an actual quote in which Obama "approves" torture for Manning?

[Bragi]

13. Go inform yourself

I've no more time or patience for nitpicky crap about whether mentally breaking a person down constitutes torture.

[EFerrari]

31. The UN Special Rapporteur for TORTURE is investigating Manning's detention.

Do you mean to say the president is unaware of that fact?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/23/un-treatment-leaks-bradley-manning

I find it hard to believe that Obama knows less about this situation than I do.

[Bluerthanblue]

129. I'm sure he is aware of it- And I'm pretty sure

that he wouldn't have made the comment he did if he believed that the UN would find it to be deemed torture.

I don't approve of the way Mr. Manning is being detained- but then I don't approve of quite abit of what is established "Military" procedure. Mr. Manning joined up and remained in the military by choice. And when he did that, he was made aware that his 'rights'- unfortunately aren't the same as an average citizen. I'm not saying that's moral- OR 'just'.- but all soldiers know that they don't have the same freedom or in some cases the same protections as a civilians. They operate under the UCMJ.


What about the other soldiers who are being detained in military prisons? Don't deserve the same amount of empathy and compassion as is being shown Mr. Manning?

I can't defend the way he is being treated. I do find the selective outrage discouraging.

[EFerrari]

140. I agree that this issue is much bigger than this one case. n/t

[JoePhilly]

158. Did you read the sub-title of the article you reference .... ??

"Office of rapporteur on torture confirms it is looking into complaint made by Manning supporter"

This is your proof?

[truebrit71]

142. He "approves" of how he is being handled which by UN definition is torture...

...do I have to physically connect the dots for you, or can you get there yourself?

[JoePhilly]

160. What specifically has the UN said. Be specific.

A poster above provided a link which proved nothing.

What links do you have?

[pacalo]

189. OMG. If this weren't such a serious & sad chapter of our country's decline, I'd find that

statement comical.

[MannyGoldstein]

10. What don't you understand? It's not torture.

Obama has said that we don't torture.
Obama has said we're following procedures re: Manning.
Thus, it is proved that Manning is not being tortured.
QED

[somone]

17. America never tortures

[Turborama]

44. "Freedom Tickles"

I've never seen that poster or heard that phrase before. Very good dark humor.

[coalition_unwilling]

163. Torture is as American as cherry pie (with apologies to H. Rap Brown) - n/t

[gratuitous]

28. Indeed, none dare call it torture

For if it prosper, it isn't torture. Or some such bullshit sophistry. Damn, I'm so old, I remember when the United States used to fight against this sort of thing. I guess if they finally drive Manning insane, they can parade him around as the inevitable product of his guilty conscience.

I wonder if they'll charge the Manning family for the means of his execution?

[pacalo]

190. That's what the boy king said, too.

[treestar]

203. You're using a definition for it that includes that, we understand

We understand you think what is done to Manning is "torture." You are a suicide prevention expert.

But if the sheets and clothes are restored and Manning does in fact kill himself with them, then, in that situation, you would not blame the government, correct?

[somone]

12. His 'basic standards' are what now?

[Bragi]

21. Probably same as Bush --

The Bush definition was that it's only torture if it results in permanent organ damage.

So as long as you don't consider the brain an organ 9which it is), then destroying someone's mental capacity isn't torture.

[cali]

19. it's disgusting.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dionysus]

51. are you saying obama's a murdering terrorist?

[phleshdef]

23. Suggesting that its torture is an insult to anyone thats actually been tortured.

I am 100% against bogus suicide "worries" being used to humiliate him, if thats whats actually happening. But lets not abuse the word torture and thus cause it to lose all meaning.

[Bragi]

26. Nope, it is torture and unconscionable /nt

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

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[krawhitham]

90. Solitary confinement is torture?

are you kidding me?


When we start pulling out his finger nails and water boarding him then bitch


Funny how every single major human rights organization has protested Manning's treatment, but they did do much of anything for the people Bush tortured

[EFerrari]

96. There's a definition in 104 and a long article on this question

in #107.

You bet your sweet bippie it is.

[krawhitham]

112. 107 has no link

this is 107

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=615722&mesg_id=616526

no link


but it does not matter

Solitary confinement is not torture, period. There has been studies that go both ways. When a person who has experienced both says it is not torture I believe him not a damn study

[truebrit71]

128. 104. Solitary confinement IS torture. Period. Per the UN.

"... any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."

Next?

[EFerrari]

139. Here you go:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande

[phleshdef]

108. Yes, according to this crowd, anything the prisoner doesn't like is torture.

According to their insane logic, we shouldn't even lock people up because they might not like it!

[krawhitham]

113. +1

[truebrit71]

127. Go to the link in #104 and look at the actual definition of torture.

Here, I'll cut and paste the relevant bit for you..This is from the United Nations definition of torture......(bolding mine)

"... any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."

Read it and get back to me on the "logic" you think is insane.

Thanks!

[phleshdef]

177. Yes. I've read it. It changes not a single thing.

Manning isn't enduring anything that prisoners in this country have had to endure for ages. Its not "severe". Severe is much worse than that. Manning is a criminal and is being subjected to the kind of discomforts that criminals are typically subjected to when they have been caught, especially when its military related. He is not being tortured. Being stripped naked and deprived of social time is not severe physical or mental punishment. You THINK it is because your sense of what constitutes "severe" is warped.

[EFerrari]

33. As I posted above, the UN Special Rapporteur for Torture is investigating

Manning's detention. There is no abuse of the word going on here.

[JoePhilly]

162. As I responded above ... the subtitle of your article ....

"Office of rapporteur on torture confirms it is looking into complaint made by Manning supporter"

Looking into a complaint is NOT a finding of anything.

Some one makes a complaint, you'd investigate it. But what you would not do is use the investigation to conclude guilt.

[dorkulon]

34. Solitary confinement is torture.

The fact that we do it all the time doesn't make it less so.

[ej510]

40. It meant cause mental trauma. Isolation is torture. There is a reason people who enjoy their friends

and family and spend time with social groups live longer than isolated people.

[EFerrari]

43. Solitary confinement can cause permanent brain damage. nt

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

138. You know where the link is and you have the google.

[krawhitham]

116. reading this thread can cause permanent brain damage

[Bragi]

170. And the brain is an organ? Which is being damaged, right?

The Bush administration defined torture as the interrogation techniques that result in permanent organ damage, right?

Obama has now endorsed interroration techniques that harm someone's psyche, mental, and neurological (brain functioning) health.

So Obama is now endoring techniques that are torture under the Bush definition. Right?

If I'm wrong on this, I am hopeful someone will point out my error.

[phleshdef]

47. There is a legal definition of torture and solitary confinement does not fit it.

You don't GET to change that definition. So sorry.

[EFerrari]

48. It most certainly does. Every single human rights organization has also

protested the United States' widespread use of solitary confinement, too.

YOU don't get to change the definition.

[phleshdef]

75. Human rights organizations rightfully protest a lot of things that aren't torture.

Being locked in a room all by yourself definately sucks. Its also definately not torture. If Bush had been doing nothing but locking up terrorists in solitary confinement, then we wouldn't even be having this torture conversation.

[EFerrari]

79. Being "locked in a room all by yourself" can give you brain damage.

Isolation, sensory deprivation, sleep disruption, forced nudity, all torture techniques.

[phleshdef]

91. Show me some brain scans that scientifically prove that. I call bullshit.

Brain damage is caused by cutting off oxygen to the brain or blunt trauma or cancer. Its not caused by hating your life. Severe depression maybe. Brain damage, utter bullshit.

[EFerrari]

102. I put the link for you in #107.

Have fun.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bragi]

171. You are qualified to analyse brain scans? /nt

[phleshdef]

178. Its painfully obvious that I would want said scans to come with a qualified opinion...

...pretending that I meant my own analysis of the scans would mean anything doesn't help you win any arguments, it just makes you look desperate.

[Bluerthanblue]

154. we also practice Capitol Punishment- which most civilized nations

do not- yet many Democrats support it.

America isn't without it's problems and inconsistencies. We allow prison rape- I've read several times on this site where people have gleefully posted that when "so-and so" gets to prison, they'll get what they deserve.

We are a pretty cruel society in many ways. Even right here on DU. I think this might be part of the need to demonize others- even the President. We all- myself very much included- have things to work on and resolve about the way we live versus the way we expect others to.

That being said, we use solitary confinement all the time here in the US. And worse. Mr.Manning has supporters and a following, many people being treated far worse than this have no one. Our outrage should be broad and without respect to how much we identify or support the person being mistreated. imo

(don't mean to dump on you- EFerrari, but I find you to be pretty honest, even when we disagree.)

[defendandprotect]

169. +1000% -- thank you - K/R for your post --

[bobbolink]

179. "Our outrage should be broad and without respect to how much we identify or support the person being

mistreated."

Those are the most important words I have read on this subject.

THANK you!

[_ed_]

211. How does it feel to be defending torture?

I always wondered what it was like to be a Bush robot defending torture from 2000-2008.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

52. That's like saying punching someone in the face is not assault

because some people are beaten up with lead pipes.

[phleshdef]

101. No, its more like your argument is saying we shouldn't even imprison people...

...because its not a pleasant experience, therefore it MUST be torture.

[woo me with science]

63. Sounds like the arguments for waterboarding. nt

[phleshdef]

97. No, waterboarding is definately torture.

[ReggieVeggie]

183. says an unrepentant, devout Obama supporter

if Bush were doing this you'd be livid

[pacalo]

191. Torture isn't limited to physical harm; his mental state is deteriorating.

Besides taking his clothes away & having him stand for hours in front of the guard, he's being subjected to a cruel "push me-pull me" game with the guards, the commander who met with him.

[treestar]

204. +1000000000000000000

And there is never any admission that the person calling it that is an expert on suicide or would leave off blaming the government if any prisoner did kill themselves.

[_ed_]

206. When Bush/Cheney used forced nudity

in Abu Gharib, did you complain? I hope not -- you'd be a massive hypocrite.

So Obama worship goes all the way to defending torture? Sorry, I'm off this boat. I used to criticize Bush robots who refused to criticize their dear Leader. Obama robots are no better. Think for yourself.

[_ed_]

212. John McCain said that solitary was the worst aspect

of his torture.

Out of curiousity, what would it take for you to criticize Obama. I'm beginning to realize that many Obama supporters were just like Bush supporters: they'll defend him reflexively no matter what he does.

[Tatiana]

29. I think I am ready for Senator Kerry and others to start publicly disagreeing with Obama. n/t

[politicasista]

37. Yep. He needs to stay true to himself

but he may be cautious because of possible backlash from Obama's staunchest supporters out there. :shrug:

[defendandprotect]

54. Disagree fine -- but if you're thinking a challenger for 2012, forget Kerry ... please!!

[Tatiana]

81. Not at all. I am speaking just with respect to this issue of torture. n/t

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

168. Well, good for Kerry if he spoke out against it --

I rechecked the article quickly but didn't see any mention of Kerry -

maybe I need a nap!

[zorahopkins]

30. Tears In My Eyes

This has me in tears.

I feel so bad.......

[EFerrari]

35. The Obama's just hosted an event on the prevention of bullying yesterday.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/10/obama.bullying/index.html?eref=rss_mostpopular

Talk about unclear on the concept.

[chill_wind]

78. You got that right. n/t

[EFerrari]

120. You know, I don't understand why no gay rights group

has stepped up to the plate for Manning. Wikileaks supporters have, human rights orgs have. If this is to get to any serious level, gay rights orgs have to.

I emailed Get Equal today -- they seem to be the least risk adverse among them all.

[Vinca]

36. This is incredibly sad. No wonder there's no prosecution of Bush for torture.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

38. Maybe the President will write the Pentagon a sternly worded letter asking them to "fill

him in on what's going on...... if it's not too much trouble of course".

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

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[lamp_shade]

42. Good answer, Mr. President. Stupid question Tapper you idiot.

[EFerrari]

46. Why is the question stupid? Because it is embarrassing

to have to acknowledge you are being investigated for torture or what?

[Robb]

59. It's a stupid question for two reasons: first, it's stupid to ask "Do you agree with PJ, yes or no?"

...Because PJ's statement was http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2011/03/11/pj-crowley-at-center-for-civic-media-almost-25-as-popular-as-castro/">characteristically nuanced:

“I spent 26 years in the air force. What is happening to Manning is ridiculous, counterproductive and stupid, and I don’t know why the DoD is doing it. Nevertheless, Manning is in the right place.”

The question put to the President asked him first to agree or disagree with a portion of PJ's statement, already misquoted -- PJ talked about "what is happening," not Manning's "treatment." PJ might well have been referring to the charges themselves.

Second, PJ goes on to say "Manning is in the right place." Rather a notion at odds with the idea that PJ thinks Manning's "treatment" is the problem.

[EFerrari]

62. No, Crawly was talking about Manning's treatment.

More than one witness has already attested to that. Here's one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x613109

There was no quoting here.

[Robb]

68. I gave you a link to the direct quote. The same link FDL used to gin this story up.

You should read it.

[EFerrari]

70. FDL didn't have to "gin" anything up. There are multiple sources

from witnesses with the same take.

[Robb]

71. There's a direct quote. The whole thing taped and transcribed.

Sorry, that's what he said. You can dance around whatever you think he meant, but what he said is pretty clear -- and in character.

[EFerrari]

74. Yes, he was clear and in character and that is reflected in

the multiple reports from witnesses, including the journalists at the event who asked him if his remarks were for the record.

[truebrit71]

66. "Manning is in the right place" does not equal "Manning's treatment is right"...

Jeebus, talk about nuanced...

It was a very simple question, a fellow govt employee has said 'x', do you agree with that?

Then we all got was a bullshit tap-dance full of plausible denial.

[Robb]

69. So is there a 4-star health spa at Quantico as well?

You think that's what PJ meant? :D

[truebrit71]

73. He's behind bars because he's accused of a crime = fine. He's being tortured = not fine.

Very, very simple.

I don't approve of torture, and I sure as hell won't be an apologist for those that do. You are free to do as you please..

[Robb]

76. Oh, please. So is PJ a torture "apologist," or

...does the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs have no idea how military prisoners are treated?

[truebrit71]

89. No, that would be Obama.

..and apparently the President of the United States has no idea how they are treated because he had to ask....

[Robb]

94. Now *there's* a dodge. (nt)

[truebrit71]

99. Hey I'm not the one on here saying the the President's answer was great..

...and that he answered the "substance" of the question really well, which he clearly did not..

You believe whatever you want, but as far as I'm concerned President 'Indefinite Detention' just said he was okay with Manning's treatment which is the textbook definition of torture.

[Robb]

106. This habit of misleading and unflattering paraphrasing isn't helpful to a real conversation.

I guess "you believe what you want" back at you. :shrug:

[truebrit71]

115. Just taking your previous points from this and another thread..

...and putting them together... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=615320&mesg_id=615320

You would rather get pedantic about the phrasing of PJ's statement, than pay attention to the fact that President Obama is fine and dandy with the way Manning is being treated.

THAT is the issue here, NOT arguing over "what the definition of 'is' is" type of linguistic parsing you are playing at...

[CommonSensePLZ]

82. He's accused of a crime to keep the people who actually

Commit and order them out of trouble.

"Snitches get stitches"

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

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[politicasista]

65. Bingo. Where is their outrage at the system sending minorities

that are wrongfully accused in this country that are in prison? :shrug:


They all have to tread lightly on this issue.

[EFerrari]

114. I didn't know it until I started reading up on solitary confinement

but prisoner and human rights orgs all around the world have protested the US use of solitary and for some time now but the "liberal media" hasn't reported that.

[politicasista]

121. It seems like the media has been silent when it comes to minorities being

mistreated in prison, but are all up in arms about Manning and screaming about prison reform now that there is a black president, but didn't demand the same accountability when Bush I and II and Clinton held the office.

[EFerrari]

135. Actually, the corporate media has done squat for Brad Manning

but you're right, they never miss an opportunity to slam Obama.

If most Americans really knew what our prisons were like or how minorities are routed to them, I don't think they would even believe it.

[politicasista]

149. True n/t

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

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[lamp_shade]

161. Sorry, dear xphile, but the question was stupid.

[JackRiddler]

221. Rah, rah, sis-boom-bah, gooooooooooooo TEAM!!!

[defendandprotect]

49. How pitiful ... so we have a president who can't think for himself ... !!

And relies on the Pentagon to tell him what's real and what's not?


:nuke:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

53. Consulting the Pentagon about Manning is like consulting Tony Soprano about gun safety.

[chill_wind]

77. [phone]

[Oilwellian]

119. Glenn Greenwald just tweeted:

Perhaps there haven't been any Wall Street prosecutions because Obama asked Jamie Dimon if there was any fraud & he assured him there wasn't.

[EFerrari]

137. Ouch.

[politicasista]

166. Would love for him to say that mess to his face

He won't because he can hide behind the internet and blogposts rather than say it to Obama out loud. The President looks like the real adult here, he has to deal with more on a daily basis than Greenwald ever will.

[hifiguy]

174. I do like Glenn Greenwald.

I surely do.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

50. Is it just me or is the weaseling and non-answering worse than the opinion itself?

(Whatever it is.)

[defendandprotect]

55. +1000% -- "weaseling and non-answering" -- embarrassing denial of torture -- !!

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

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[Poboy]

58. "We don't torture"- GWB/BHO

[blindpig]

60. The head of empire has great responsibilities..

the necessities of empire are what they are.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. CYA being foremost.

[Cali_Democrat]

72. Sickening. n/t

[DutchLiberal]

80. Why is anyone surprised by this? Obama can hold anybody for an indefinite period of time...

Remember? "Indefinite detention"? And he also has the power to single-handedly appoint anybody an "enemy combatant" (and have them assassinated). He inherited these unconstitutional powers from Bush. DU was screaming murder back then. Now, it's getting defended.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

85. But..but...Obama gives pretty speeches about Human Rights and Transparent Government.

Not to mention he has a cute doggie.

[truebrit71]

93. ...and walking picket lines...and single payer health care...

...you know, really, REALLY pretty speeches..

[bobbolink]

98. And a sexy wife.

Who has some curious notion that shaving her eyebrows is.... attractive?

I'll take the cute doggie.

[Glassunion]

181. +10fucking000 if I spoke my mind I would be banned.

This fucking bullshit drove me mad back then. It feels worse now.

New boss... Same as the old boss.

[DutchLiberal]

193. If you hold Obama to the same standard as Bush on DU, you'll get mocked...

They belittle you and trivialize the importance of those unconstitutional powers Obama now holds. They'll say you're only 'bashing' Obama because his policies haven't been 'perfect'. And if you suggest not re-electing Obama, they'll try to scare you with 'president Palin'...

[Glassunion]

199. I simply hold all politicians to the same standard.

[Agony]

194. +++

[Freddie Stubbs]

83. No, he disagrees with the contention that Manning if being tortured

[RufusTFirefly]

84. TORTURE: Here is the United Nations definition.

From "Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment,
New York, 10 December 1984"
(The ellipses are theirs, not mine.)

"Torture" is defined as:

"... any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."

Link

[EFerrari]

88. Thanks. n/t

[Robb]

100. That last sentence makes the rest meaningless.

"Inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions" is big enough to drive a truck through.

[EFerrari]

110. Not really. Being handcuffed to and from a hearing can be painful,

for example, but it is only incidental to being taken safely to and from a court room.

[pacalo]

192. Thank you.

[chill_wind]

87. He's only a risk to himself for eight hrs at night, you see. He's magically ok

the other 16 hrs. Apparently the C.I.C isn't real curious about that.

[1776Forever]

95. Time Mag. Today: WikiLeakers and Whistle-Blowers: Obama's Hard Line

WikiLeakers and Whistle-Blowers: Obama's Hard Line
By Mark Benjamin Friday, Mar. 11, 2011


Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2058340,00.html#ixzz1GKBZLRukhttp://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2058340,00.html

[mochajava666]

107. Manning is being tortured. Obama should be held accountable

Torture is a crime against humanity only approved of by evil people.

Just because he is a Democrat doesn't mean he should have immunity.

[Bluebear]

118. You weren't paying attention, Obama never said he wouldn't condone torture.

:sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

144. I emailed Get Equal about Manning this morning

and someone got right back to me.

I love those guys. Maybe someone will decide to do something.

[AngryOldDem]

122. "They assure me they are."

And it's pretty clear he really doesn't want to know more than that.

[truebrit71]

124. "Plausible deniability' = "I was assured everything was fine"...

...I'm still shaking my head at that statement...

Can't believe the guy we elected thinks the same way as the war criminal he replaced..

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

134. The "Good German" defense. "I knew nothing."

[brentspeak]

123. Kind of like yesterday when the Fed said they couldn't find any improperly made bank foreclosures

"We investigated ourselves and determined that we are innocent."

[truebrit71]

125. We are well and truly through the looking glass...

...so much for "change" I guess..

[chill_wind]

130. Totally insane. I wonder how many DUers saw that thread also. n/t

[EFerrari]

132. They also rigged the definition. @ssholes. n/t

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

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[truebrit71]

152. So much for protecting and defending the Constitution then right?

...whether Manning did or didn't do what makes him a POS in your eyes, doesn't mean you TORTURE HIM IN THE MEANTIME...Remember when the republicans were the bad guys because they did this sort of shit to Iraqis? Now it's happening to Americans and because it's a Dem in the WH it's okay?

Fuck that shit...

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

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[frylock]

167. sold out his friends..

his murderous fucking friends that killed children. why do you hate children?

[SlipperySlope]

150. Isn't that delightful?

[me b zola]

151. Not only sad, criminal

What is just plain sad is that all of us would have been very loud in our commendation of bush* if it had happened on his watch, but there are the hard core few here who will justify this because they will never admit that Pres Obama is wrong. Sad indeed.

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

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[me b zola]

157. Again, as has already been posted in this thread

a) Manning was said by a physician who examined him not to be suicidal

b) what is being done to Manning is beyond "normal" suicide watch/precautions

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

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[Bluerthanblue]

164. thanks for posting this-

:hi:

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

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[FiveGoodMen]

165. If it's bad, he's for it.

Anyone who hasn't figure that out by now, probably never will.

[Lorien]

185. He's not trying as hard to hide that anymore

probably thanks to Citizens united.

[hifiguy]

173. Can anyone say that this is a surprise

after the last two years? Honestly, can you?

[sabrina 1]

175. So, he isn't even hiding it. He admits Manning is being tortured.

I have actually asked the Pentagon whether or not the procedures that have been taken in terms of his confinement are appropriate and are meeting our basic standards. They assure me that they are

So, he admits that Manning is being tortured! Of course he uses wording that people can take the other way, but the world knows what 'our basic standards are' regarding torture.

The cat is out of the bag, he should stop the ridiculous thinking that anyone with a brain cell functioning, won't know what that means.

He KNOWS Manning is being tortured, he just said so and he, Constitutional Lawyer that he claims to be, is okay with that.

How can they sleep at night?

[rsmith6621]

180. Did You Know That Obama is a Republican....

Spelled with a D!!!!!

[Glassunion]

182. I'm fuming. This shit was supposed to stop. FUCKING PERIOD.

Solitary... Talk to an ex-con or perhaps a Vietnam vet who was exposed to extended periods of solitary. Ask them plain and simple if it was torture.

I work with an Vietnam vet. He was in held in solitary confinement for two years. He opened up to me one day over a few beers. What he did to escape that torture I will not repeat. I'm a full grown man. I cried when he told me. I cried like a baby.

[Imagevision]

184. After George W. Bush's stint Obama thought to himself, hey! I can do that...hire me - hire me...!

[pacalo]

186. To justfy evil, claim "top security". Learned that from the boy king.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

195. Torture is torture.

We are as bad as THOSE PEOPLE are, and we can never take the high road again and not look like a bunch of idiots. Thank you Bush for making our country look like assholes. It's no wonder they hate us. our government makes us all look like hypocrites.
Duckie

[noamnety]

196. Okay, so his stance on torturing US soldiers is wrong.

But did you hear they're making homebrew beer at the white house now. How cool is that?

[Poboy]

197. Thread recommended, Obama unrecommended.

[Enthusiast]

198. Among other wrong stuff.

Where are those crumbs, Obama?

[treestar]

200. Torture is not an agreed upon definition

AS it is part of law enforcement, and if you think that's torture, you should be working to get Congress to pass a law disallowing it.

[EFerrari]

208. Yes, there is an agreed upon definition of torture and it is posted to this thread. n/t

[treestar]

217. Du doesn't get to decide that

And if Manning's treatment is torture, and it is stopped, and he kills himself, then DU does not get to complain.

[sarcasmo]

205. No surprise here.

[Enrique]

210. this should score him some points with the RW n/t

[dogday]

214. Has not anyone heard of the word "shorts"? Can't we at least

give the guy a pair of shorts? How could he kill himself with a pair of shorts? Not that I believe he is even suicidal, what is wrong with a pair of shorts or underwear? Why completely naked I keep asking myself and then I think of the abu ghraib and the videos.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

219. That would require they recongnize him as human rather than mereley an enemy of the state.