O.K. Are we ready to call it what it is (Fascism) now?

[Skip_In_Boulder]

Madison, Wisconsin (CNN) -- Wisconsin's Republican-led state Senate passed Gov. Scott Walker's proposed restrictions on collective bargaining for public employees Wednesday, getting around a Democratic walkout by stripping financial provisions from the bill.

On Edit: Seems like there is still some misunderstanding.

14 POINTS OF FASCISM

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism

From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights

The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause

The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous” acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and “terrorists.” Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism

Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.

5. Rampant sexism

Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.

6. A controlled mass media

Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes’ excesses.

7. Obsession with national security

Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,” and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together

Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.

9. Power of corporations protected

Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of “have-not” citizens.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated

Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts

Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.

12. Obsession with crime and punishment

Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. “Normal” and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or “traitors” was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption

Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.

14. Fraudulent elections

Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.


NOTE: The above 14 Points was written in 2004 by Dr. Laurence Britt, a political scientist. Dr. Britt studied the fascist regimes of: Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile).

Does any of this sound familiar? As America sinks deeper and deeper into corporate greed will this country continue to be a democracy by the people and for the people or will it be ruled by the few? Will the trinity of money, power and greed over come one of the greatest countries in the world? Only we, the people, can keep it free. SPEAK OUT AND LET YOUR THOUGHTS BE KNOWN...ONLY BY SILENCE WILL WE BE DEFEATED!

http://www.ellensplace.net/fascism.html

[SDuderstadt]

1. Sorry...

it's horrible, but it's not fascism.

[fascisthunter]

4. not till it's too late

[elocs]

I agree. "Fascism" get tossed around pretty casually.

It's not good, but it's not fascism, but that is a great term to get people inflamed.

[SDuderstadt]

33. It's fucking unbelievable...n/t

[elocs]

39. I know. I think the same thing when people do not agree with me or my ideas.

How dare they!

[defendandprotect]

69. When corporations control both political parties you have fascism --

what you're just seen in Wisconsin was corporate dictated by corrupt elected

officials --

Corporatiosn now own our government and will do with it what they may --

that couldn't be clearer!

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[A wise Man]

149. Try this on for size if its not FACISM...

Definition: Fascism....A political philosophy,movement,or regime (as that of FASCIST) that exalts nation and race above the INDIVIDUAL and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible supression of opposition.

What has happened in Wisconsin is indeeed a Fascist government by the GOVERNOR and those that carry out his biddings.

[Webster Green]

11. It damn sure is.

Sorry, but it is the very definition of fascism.

[SDuderstadt]

15. Dude...

You have no idea what it is like to live in a fascist country.

Black and white overgeneralizations make our side look stupid in the same way the right calling Obama a socialist makes them look stupid.

[Skip_In_Boulder]

19. Not when you can back it with fact and history

See my updated O.P.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Betty Karlson]

108. It's not quite hyperbole.

The case could be made that your denial should be extraordinarilly extradited to Africa. Just because you say "it's not all that bad" doesn't make it so. Especially, I should add, in the eyes of the rest of the world.

[SDuderstadt]

110. Show me where I said...

"it's not all that bad". What I said was it's not fascism.

[Betty Karlson]

119. That's how I interpreted post # 1:

paraphrase = It's not all that bad as fascism.

[SDuderstadt]

121. That's called a...

"strawman argument", because I said no such thing.

You might want to look that up.

[Betty Karlson]

122. I dispute that accusation.

Perhaps you conflated fascism and nazism when making post #1?

[SDuderstadt]

123. You're getting colder

You might want to quit digging that hole.

[Betty Karlson]

124. Let's return to the actual argument then.

I don't feel that my paraphrasing of your post # 1 is the central issue here. If I made a mistake, so be it: my apologies.

That doesn't change the fact that * I * feel the situation has gone from bad to worse and could justifiably be called fascism. And you don't. And I haven't so far read any argument from you that disputes the OP's claim. except the rather vague "you never lived in a fascist country". Would you expand that argument? Could you explain what is the difference between life in the US and life in a fascist country?

[SDuderstadt]

125. Let's not

I shouldn't have to explain the difference between the US and a fascist country. If you believe that we're anything like Hitler's Germany, Mussolini's Italy or Franco's Spain, we really have nothing to talk about.

[Betty Karlson]

127. I believe that in a debate

this is called dodging the question. Which is your good right. And that's all I say about it.

[SDuderstadt]

129. I'm just not interested in continuing this with...

you, especially after you have already mischaracterized what I said in an earlier post.

It's pointless.

[Betty Karlson]

130. There's only two things left to do then:

agree to disagree, if only because we can't agree if paraphrasing is the central issue here or fascism in the USA

and

stop responding to one another

[BobbyBoring]

203. I see what you're saying

But, I've lived in the USA for 57 years. Granted, at this moment, we are not like the society's you mention but compared to 40 years ago, WE'RE REALLY FUCKING CLOSE!

[SDuderstadt]

210. Ummm, no...

we're not. We have significant, increasing problems, but we are nowhere near fascism.

[Webster Green]

27. I'm living in one right now.

But stay in denial if it makes you feel better.

You obviously don't know what the word actually means, so please stop trying to correct those of us that do.

[SDuderstadt]

32. I know precisely what I am talking about...

dude.

Do you really regard the Obama administration as a "fascist regime"?

[Skip_In_Boulder]

35. I think you are the only one that is talking about the Obama

administration. The rest of us here are talking about Republicanism.

[SDuderstadt]

38. No....

a number of people in this thread claim we live in a fascist country.

It's truly stupid.

[devilgrrl]

60. Uh dude...

just stop. :eyes:

[SDuderstadt]

61. You first....n/t

[emilyg]

68. Yes it is.

[immoderate]

74. The fascism started with the Vietnam War, solidified under Reagan.

The techniques are more refined.

--imm

[Webster Green]

36. It began before he entered office.

He hasn't done anything to take us in another direction, so yeah, I guess it is.

Hey Dude......why don't you run the same question by Bradley Manning?

[Fuzz]

65. It is because of this, I am sad.

[libodem]

31. Dooode

Wait. What? It's been happening since 'W'.

[tekisui]

155. There are degrees. And, we are in it getting worse.

[Skip_In_Boulder]

13. Tell me which points we are still missing?

14 POINTS OF FASCISM

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism

From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights

The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause

The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous” acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and “terrorists.” Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism

Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.

5. Rampant sexism

Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.

6. A controlled mass media

Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes’ excesses.

7. Obsession with national security

Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,” and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together

Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.

9. Power of corporations protected

Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of “have-not” citizens.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated

Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts

Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.

12. Obsession with crime and punishment

Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. “Normal” and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or “traitors” was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption

Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.

14. Fraudulent elections

Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.


NOTE: The above 14 Points was written in 2004 by Dr. Laurence Britt, a political scientist. Dr. Britt studied the fascist regimes of: Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile).

Does any of this sound familiar? As America sinks deeper and deeper into corporate greed will this country continue to be a democracy by the people and for the people or will it be ruled by the few? Will the trinity of money, power and greed over come one of the greatest countries in the world? Only we, the people, can keep it free. SPEAK OUT AND LET YOUR THOUGHTS BE KNOWN...ONLY BY SILENCE WILL WE BE DEFEATED!

http://www.ellensplace.net/fascism.html

[Better Believe It]

62. No. It's hardly fascism.

[mrmpa]

77. Ok, we won't call it fascism until the very end when all our

rights have been taken away. Then say oh sorry we were afraid to call it fascist. It's time to call a spade a spade. What is occurring is fascist. No ifs, ands or buts about it. What's happening are the steps toward a fascist state.

[girl gone mad]

100. FDR would disagree.

[SDuderstadt]

101. Oh, please n/t

[girl gone mad]

102. How much clearer could it be?

"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it comes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group." -Franklin D. Roosevelt

[SDuderstadt]

103. Really?

I seem to recall elections in '06 and '08 that disprove that.

[girl gone mad]

105. Which elections disprove corporate control of our government?

[SDuderstadt]

106. Do you honestly think....

corporations wanted Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the House or Obama as President????

[girl gone mad]

111. Corporations gave massive amounts of money to Obama.

The banks own him lock, stock and barrel.

Trillions gifted. Not one fraudster in jail. It's as plain as the nose on your face, assuming you have one.

[SDuderstadt]

113. Nevermind...n/t

[PATRICK]

144. Giving in to the

pressures of too many pigs with lipstick they "permit" and leverage a convenient political target to divert democracy and lead to deeper control- next time. Not only are we In the soup it is not hot enough for corporate tastes. Fear and resistance by curious compromised democratic US system will lead to classic dictatorship somewhere down the line, unless they pick another mentally diseased smiley face people can pretend about.

The first audition for Dems usually is before the electorate. For the GOP it most usually is before the corporate committee, but it is that second audition that moves the next servant of the pyramid into the line of succession. The media is as open about it as the talent pool is repellent.

They have already done or talked openly about doing ALL the things Hitler was about and most of our pols would have (literally)danced with the pre-war fascist no matter his early career, probably more enthusiastically and in greater numbers than his contemporaries.

But before we move to an era(that Reagan began inching toward) of rehabilitating the Nazis maybe we should recognize that all the usual slop over the brimming bucket of typical human infamy is present in America. That things might be worse in Haiti(thanks to us) or in Moreandmore Godaffy's Libya only define the race to the bottom for those who care to discern.

And panic induced stampede to the bottom, flags flying, red faces stupidly spewing, dumb billionaires chuckling it is.

When it gets bad enough that boards like DU will cease to be those with obstinate lack of vision of course will have no worry about having lost the argument or finally arrived at a classic-enough fascism. The main tar for WWII fascism was that they were the losers of the century for money monsters.

Who exactly has learned anything from that? Who has acted upon it?

[olegramps]

135. It is the use of fascist tactics to divide and conquer.

Aren't they using a form of demagoguery that could led to the establishment of a fascist state?

[SDuderstadt]

136. "divide and conquer" doesn't make...

something fascist.

Reflexively labeling something fascist is no more useful than the right reflexively labeling us "socialist".

[cleanhippie]

175. yes, it is. Its unfortunate that you cannot see it.

Did you actually read the link? I beg you to actually read it, all the way through, then if you still feel the same....

[SDuderstadt]

180. You wanna see what fascism is actually like?

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/index.htm

[cleanhippie]

183. You don't think the situation today closely mirrors the late 20's/early 30's in Germany?

The tactics are exactly the same. Sure, we are not at the same point Germany was in 1940, but FFS, we are following the SAME path...

[SDuderstadt]

194. By virtue of the Enabling Act...

Hitler was already the dictator of Germany by 1933, despite never having once won elective government office.

Duh.

[Name removed]

198. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fittosurvive]

188. You mean there is not a fascist behind every tree?

Seriously, as long as people are free to choose their representatives, they have the power to effect change.

[DJ13]

2. Everything fits, so yes it is

[dixiegrrrrl]

3. "Now"????

How about since 1980????
ok..2000, for sure.

[handmade34]

8. since 1980....

time to change direction

[defendandprotect]

70. Right wing political violence came into the open on 11/22/63 --

"The myth of a free press died with the assassination of Pres. John F. Kennedy" --

and I'd point out that they not only took our president they took our "people's

government" as well --

[Skip_In_Boulder]

9. Actually since the 1920's

But it is just coming into its own now. But the first step to solving a problem is to name it for what it is.

[defendandprotect]

71. New Deal was a turning point which has now been overturned -- only Social Security

and Medicare left now for them to knock over --

New Deal was one of the greatest stimulus packages ever invented because it

actually provided for economic democracy.

From the beginning, the elite have worked to buy government -- a complete take over.

[bobbolink]

143. Maybe "that is all there is " for the middle class, but we poor people stand to lose more.

Knowing that we are invisible, it isn''t surprising what is forgotten and left out.

[fascisthunter]

5. It's just about a finality.... but yes, we are seeing the reach for fascism

[dhill926]

6. yes.....

and my 83 old mother called it something worse.....hint....she was alive then......

[Lifelong Protester]

7. It is fascism, pure and simple

[lovuian]

186. Yep

thing is the idiots don't have the people ....their propaganda machine is BUSTED

[MedleyMisty]

10. There are no jackboots

or brown uniforms. Or swastikas. Also we speak English and not German.

Every detail has to be perfect. We have to totally and completely recreate early 1930s Germany, authentic to every last detail, before we're allowed to call it fascism.

Scratch that. Mid-1940s Germany. We have to be being rescued from a death camp before we can talk about fascism.

That's what I get from the people who deny it, anyway.

[SDuderstadt]

16. Hitler had labor leaders murdered...

you have no idea what it is like to live in a fascist counry.

[fascisthunter]

21. Hitler didn't need to murder labor leaders for it to be fascism

YOU don't know what it is like to live in a fascist country because you choose not to recognize it. Knock off the condescension. It's uncalled for.

[Skip_In_Boulder]

25. There it is again

If it doesn't match on each and every point then it must be something else. Dangerous thinking and this is how societies are overpowered before they can defend themselves.

[SDuderstadt]

30. Do you really regard the Obama administration as...

a "fascist regime"?

My undergraduate degree was in Comparative Political Systems. It's not like I'm a neophyte at this.

[Skip_In_Boulder]

34. No, it is what has taken over the Republican party over the

last 30 years. If your degree is in Political Systems then I assume that you have read about the rise of fascism in America in the 1920's, as a response of western capitalist to the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917. Fascism never did go away in America after WWII it just went on the back burner until the Regan revolution in 1980.

But no, Democrats are not a part of the rise of modern day fascism but they are sure piss poor as a resistance party against it.

[SDuderstadt]

37. Now you are moving the goalposts....

the name-calling in your previous post is pretty silly, too.

[Skip_In_Boulder]

41. Whatever.

[cleanhippie]

177. Now you are arguing for the sake of argument. Why so obtuse?

[olegramps]

140. I would label it an Oligarchy.

Control by the wealthy seems to be the case. When a mere 400 families have the same wealth as the bottom 50%, say 170 million or so, there is no need for a truly fascist state. You just provide the masses with illusion that they are living in a democracy with the control of the media. Its far closer to being an Orwellian state than Hitler's Germany that employed a reign of terror for control. It is actually in some ways more frightening because of the psychological control. When I listen to propaganda being spewed and those lapping it up many of them appear to be zombies. It is nearly impossible to have a constructive discussion with them since they just spew out the same line of bullshit.

In this aspect I think Obama is deluding himself when he thinks he can reason with the extreme right-wingers who dominate the Republican Party. When you compare Eisenhower's Party with todays Republican Party you would think that he was a communist for advocating for a strong middle class built on organized labor. I was a young boy when I met him when he vacationed in Colorado. He invited the local kids to fish at the ranch that he was staying at. It had been well stocked. He was one of the kindest men I ever met. I can't imagine him tolerating today's Republicans. I suppose the horror of war had a profound affect on him and he desired more for his fellow countrymen. It seems unreal that the income tax rates on the wealthy were still around 90% in order to pay off the war debt. I don't recall any widespread opposition. Todays billionaires would have a stroke.

[backscatter712]

48. I'd say we're about where Germany was in 1928-32 or so.

The Nazis hadn't assumed full power yet, a lot of Germans were laughing derisively at the Nazis and not taking them seriously, sort of the way we regard the Tea Party. People still thought Germany was recovering from the war and turning into a civilized, advanced democracy.

We're not at the point of 1945-era Nazi Germany that murdered millions of Jews and others in ovens, or even at 1933 Nazi Germany at the time of the Reichstag fire and the Enabling Act yet. But the Koch brothers, the Republicans and other authoritarian elements want to bring us there very badly - there's big money in it for them.

[Fuzz]

66. I certainly don't. More like an (omg) appeaser? ok, I said it.

[U4ikLefty]

115. Ask for a refund on your tuition

dude

[SDuderstadt]

116. Here's a better idea....

why don't you ask APSA whether either the GOP or the Tea Party is "fascist"?

[Luminous Animal]

86. Fascism does not equal murder. It is a political system to what people

bow down to whether there is murder or not.

Hitler, the fascist, outlawed unions well before he resorted to murdering them.

[SDuderstadt]

87. Pay attention

*** Use of violence or threats of violence to impose views on others (fascism and Nazism both employed street violence and state violence at different moments in their development).

http://remember.org/hist.root.what.html

[Luminous Animal]

93. Yes. At different moments of their development. Rush, Glen, Ann, and scores of others have not

threatened violence? (From you post... Use of violence or threats of violence.)

I am paying attention.

[SDuderstadt]

95. Rush, Glen and Ann are, in no way...

political leaders. Sorry.

[Luminous Animal]

96. Thank you for your opinion.

Sorry right back at you.

[SDuderstadt]

97. Why don't you read what Chip Berlet...

has to say? Perhaps you've heard of his book, "RW Populism in America".

[Luminous Animal]

98. Done. Chip Berlet and I agree... we are fighting fascism in the U.S.

Fascists particularly loathed the social theories of the French Revolution and its slogan: "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity."

*** Liberty from oppressive government intervention in the daily lives of its citizens, from illicit searches and seizures, from enforced religious values, from intimidation and arrest for dissenters; and liberty to cast a vote in a system in which the majority ruled but the minority retained certain inalienable rights.

*** Equality in the sense of civic equality, egalitarianism, the notion that while people differ, they all should stand equal in the eyes of the law.

*** Fraternity in the sense of the brotherhood of mankind. That all women and men, the old and the young, the infirm and the healthy, the rich and the poor, share a spark of humanity that must be cherished on a level above that of the law, and that binds us all together in a manner that continuously re-affirms and celebrates life.

This is what fascism as an ideology was reacting against_and its support came primarily from desperate people anxious and angry over their perception that their social and economic position was sinking and frustrated with the constant risk of chaos, uncertainty and inefficiency implicit in a modern democracy based on these principles. Fascism is the antithesis of democracy. We fought a war against it not half a century ago; millions perished as victims of fascism and champions of liberty.

http://remember.org/hist.root.what.html

[SDuderstadt]

99. Notice Berlet's use of the...

PAST tense.

I dount seriously that Berlet regards either the GOP or the Tea Party "fascist". Why don't you ask him?

Throwing "fascist" around casually doesn't make for a very effective strategy.

[Luminous Animal]

104. Yes. And he wrote that nearly 20 years ago. You keep using him as a source...

perhaps you should ask him.

Solely linking fascism to NAZI obscures history and the lessons that can be learned.

[SDuderstadt]

107. You're the one with the question

I'm already familiar with his work.

[Luminous Animal]

112. So you haven't yet disproved that his definition of fascism does not apply today.

[SDuderstadt]

114. Nothing I provide will convince you, so...

I'm not going to waste my time.

[cleanhippie]

179. It also seems that nothng will convince you......

until its too late. It may already be.

[SDuderstadt]

182. Serious question

If we are a "fascist" country, why do you still live here?

[cleanhippie]

184. ARe you seriously taking the tactic of the "why don't you leave if you don't like it here" crowd?

Seriously?


I have given my ENTIRE adult life in service of my country, and I will DAMNED if I give it up without a fight.

[SDuderstadt]

126. Read post # 122 n/t

[reggie the dog]

132. when cops put me in a cage for having flowers in my pocket

is that enough of a threat of violence?

[CreekDog]

146. I guess Beck's "I want to beat them with a shovel" was not violence

:eyes:

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

164. "You have no idea what it is like to live in a fascist country"

SDuderstadt, you have said this at least twice in this thread. From this I gather that you have direct experience of living in a fascist country. Which country, and when were you there? If you haven't had that experience, on what basis are you making your statement? It would be as valid as me, a Methodist, saying, "You have no idea of what it is like to live as a Catholic."

So again I ask: what is your direct experience of living in a fascist country?

[SDuderstadt]

166. Read William Shirer's "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" or..

Alan Bullock's, "Hitler: A Study in Tyranny".

When you've finished, please report back on how the United States is like Nazi Germany.

[Lars39]

171. You read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" and didn't see the parallels?

Massive myopia.

[SDuderstadt]

173. Dude...

do you honestly claim that the Weimar Republic had strong democratic traditions?

[Lars39]

176. I can see the lessons in that book went right over your head.

[SDuderstadt]

178. LOLOLOL...

I'll bet you've never even read it.

Too funny.

[Lars39]

197. Read it twice....just don't feel like arguing with the willfully ignorant.

:hi:

[SDuderstadt]

209. Oh, of course...

if I disagree with you, it could only be because I am "willfully ignorant".

How clumsy of me.

[Skip_In_Boulder]

18. LOL Really, there are just some people

who can't seem to think in larger conceptional terms. Or as they use to refer to it in law as "Being on all fours" which it very rarely is.

[bobbolink]

23. While I get your meaning, and agree with you, what you are describing isn't "fascism"

Mussolini coined the term "fascism" and what he was talking about is a government run by corporations.

We're definitely there.

[fascisthunter]

24. exactly

[Skip_In_Boulder]

43. Ding, Ding, Ding,

We have a winner.

[intheflow]

217. That exactly sums up the counter-argument.

Fascism can only exist in one time and place. It like Bible inerrancy. Once something happens once, it could never arise in another form or through another interpretation, ever.

:banghead:

[Chorophyll]

12. Yes. And too those who think that's too strong a term,

fascism creeps up slowly, over time. What Walker did in Wisconsin tonight shows complete contempt for democracy and the rule of law. If stuff like this goes down in all 50 states, it will be fascism indeed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. I have for years

and I have been told, but there are no jack booted thugs

[RandomThoughts]

20. They have used PR and people submissiveness.

And cultivated that trait by things like talking about 'civil' actions.

They always say be civil, since when it is broken and laws protect the wrong groups, or are only enforced selectively, then civil is the way to control.

They don't use the jack boot because they have not been pushed to choose to do that yet.


They will have to make a choice as they are broken up if they will choose to do that, some will, I would not chose that approach.

But the lack of them using the jack boot, is because they have used the soft boot propaganda. The whole concept of peaceful resistance is force them to use the jack boot against a passive resister, by a group in resistance not agreeing with what is wrong, so they can be seen for what they are. Or they will correct things, and also be seen for what they are.

For instance, walk into a criminal lair, and pick up what they should not have and correct things by moving that to the people that should have it in more balance, make them try and hit you, or try and fire you. Then get up and do it again.

And I consider the wrongful smear and trying to take my beer and travel money a Jack Boot. But I am unlacing that boot easily.

And I will have the beer and travel money and many experiences.

[bobbolink]

40. And the answer to that is.......

"You're thinking of totalitarianism, not fascism."

[Drew Richards]

17. Yes its the new fascism

Its called Corporate Fascism...or the Oligarchy of Republicanism Corporatism and Dominionism....

[Jamastiene]

22. It would be interesting to see the results of a recurring poll.

I'm not sure about all of the rules regarding polls, because I've only started a few polls, but if someone was to put up a monthly poll about the very question you just asked, it would be interesting to see the results over time.

In answer to your question from my end, yes, I'm ready to call it fascism. It is.

[Bonobo]

28. A reminder to knee-jerk naysayers. "Fascism" does not only refer to Nazi Germany. nt

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Webster Green]

45. Please define fascism for us.

Although it's already been done in this thread.

Which of the elements of fascism are missing here? :shrug:

[SDuderstadt]

46. Try Chip Berlet...

http://remember.org/hist.root.what.html

[Webster Green]

50. OK, I'll check it out.

Have to remain open-minded.

[demwing]

75. Here are Berlet's hallmarks of Fascism

Which of the below have Republicans not yet met?

*** Nationalism and super-patriotism with a sense of historic mission.

*** Aggressive militarism even to the extent of glorifying war as good for the national or individual spirit.

*** Use of violence or threats of violence to impose views on others (fascism and Nazism both employed street violence and state violence at different moments in their development).

*** Authoritarian reliance on a leader or elite not constitutionally responsible to an electorate.

*** Cult of personality around a charismatic leader.

*** Reaction against the values of Modernism, usually with emotional attacks against both liberalism and communism.

*** Exhortations for the homogeneous masses of common folk (Volkish in German, Populist in the U.S.) to join voluntarily in a heroic mission_often metaphysical and romanticized in character.

*** Dehumanization and scapegoating of the enemy_seeing the enemy as an inferior or subhuman force, perhaps involved in a conspiracy that justifies eradicating them.

*** The self image of being a superior form of social organization beyond socialism, capitalism and democracy.

*** Elements of national socialist ideological roots, for example, ostensible support for the industrial working class or farmers; but ultimately, the forging of an alliance with an elite sector of society.

*** Abandonment of any consistent ideology in a drive for state power.

[SDuderstadt]

76. Why don't you ask Chip Berlet?

In the meantime, number them chronologically, then make the argument for satifaction of 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10 and 11.

[demwing]

78. Make the argument for satisfaction of 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10 and 11.

Forgive me for eliminating all but the points you called out:

3. Use of violence or threats of violence to impose views on others (fascism and Nazism both employed street violence and state violence at different moments in their development).

Threats of violence have been rampant in the last election cycle. "Don't retreat, reload" and "2nd amendment remedies" come to mind.

4. Authoritarian reliance on a leader or elite not constitutionally responsible to an electorate.

Consider what just happened in Michigan, with the Governor claiming the power to overturn local elections in an "emergency." Also, consider Bush, and his lies to justify war.

5. Cult of personality around a charismatic leader.

Reagan. Palin.

7. Exhortations for the homogeneous masses of common folk (Volkish in German, Populist in the U.S.) to join voluntarily in a heroic mission_often metaphysical and romanticized in character.

Tea Party = "Take back our Country"

8. Dehumanization and scapegoating of the enemy_seeing the enemy as an inferior or subhuman force, perhaps involved in a conspiracy that justifies eradicating them.

Liberals, Muslims, Homosexuals, take your pick.

10. Elements of national socialist ideological roots, for example, ostensible support for the industrial working class or farmers; but ultimately, the forging of an alliance with an elite sector of society.

Faux Populist Tea Party, actually sponsored and directed by Corporate Elite.

11. Abandonment of any consistent ideology in a drive for state power.

Republicans run on "Creating Jobs" and "Reducing the Size of Government" then toss those wherever and whenever inconvenient in their drive to assume power.

[SDuderstadt]

79. Dude...

I give up. You are straining to prove those points. For example, the GOP is certainly not arrayed around Palin. Like I said, ask Chip Berlet.

Nevermind.

[demwing]

82. Fine, give up.

You set it out there, I answered it. The GOP may not be arrayed around Palin, but the Tea Party is, and these are the fuckers that are bringing Fascism to our door.

[SDuderstadt]

84. Dude...

Palin came in dead last in the Tea Party straw poll. I would not call them harmless, but they couldn't take over a county.

[demwing]

89. Don't believe it...

In 1922, the Nazi Party won a whopping 12 seats in Germany's Federal Govt. No one thought them a serious threat.

In comparison, the Tea Party Caucus in the House currently has 52 members, and the Senate has 4. Significantly better than the Nazi's first attempt.

[SDuderstadt]

92. Dude...

that does not
This is getting stupid.

[themadstork]

185. Sduder has been obnoxious and dismissive

but after doing a bit of outside reading it does appear he's right. I'm not going to make the positive case for it since defining fascism is hugely messy even for scholars, and I'm too much of an amsteur to do it convincingly. I will say, though, that what Mussolini meant when he spoke of the corporate state seems to be leading some astray. It's not quite what you'd expect.

At best you could characterize the TPers as fledgling wannabe fascists, but even then it's a stretch. TP ideology is despicable imo, but it's distinct enough that I don't think it's really fascist at all. Mainly it's plutocratic. It's racist, misogynist, and generally icky, but it's not statist, not really trans-class, and doesn't really crush dissent or aim for a single-party state. They're beligerently stupid, but, alas, duder may have been right when he said they were too stupid to be fascist. Better, imo, to call them plutocratic stooges who mistakenly think they're advocating some kind of populist libertarianism.

Not to say what's happening to our country doesn't suck. It's the rich using the non-rich to crush the non-rich. What people mean when they use the term 'banana republic' (very) loosely is closer to whst's happening here.

[themadstork]

193. Addendum

Also, the 14 "rules" above are indefensible bullcrap. Should go without saying.

[SDuderstadt]

215. Occupational hazard...

I tend to appear obnoxious and.dismissive when people start casually slinging terms like "fascist" around.

[demwing]

148. And by the way, you still haven't countered my answers

All you did was scoff at Palin. Fine, cut Palin, stick with Reagan.

Now what?

[CreekDog]

147. Dude!

is not an argument. :boring:

[demwing]

80. That being said, I agree that we do not live in a Fascist country

but what we are experiencing is a drive by Fascists, posing as Tea Party Republicans, to wrest power in America - and they are succeeding.

[SDuderstadt]

81. Dude...

I just "infiltrated" the Tea Party Patriot National Policy Summit. Trust me they are not that smart.

[demwing]

85. I didn't say they were smart, I said they were Fascists

or act like Fascists, and really--what's the damn difference?

No offense, but whom should I trust? You, or my own two eyes?

[SDuderstadt]

88. Dude...

I was there for a day and a half with them.

They are misguided, but they are hardly fascists.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Octafish]

163. You should start a journal, sduderstadt.

That would make it easy to follow your heroic exploit as an infiltrator.

[SDuderstadt]

165. I don't need a "journal", dude....

but, since you are apparently search-challenged, you can read my OP here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=504632

[Octafish]

170. You are so right, sduderstadt.

You don't need a journal. Nice post. Dude.

[cleanhippie]

199. .

[Oasis_]

51. OK

I'm not going to take the time to go through and refute all fourteen ridiculous assertions from the OP of what constitutes Fascism, the rather nebulous standard employed to define it, and that we're currently living under it. I'll address the first:

"From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia."

I proudly display an American flag in my front yard as well as having two Grandparents who honorably served in WWII, yet any mention of this or wilfull demonstration of pride in my country somehow equates to living under s Fascist regime? It somehow makes me a collaborator in and with the Fascist state?

Thankfully, these are the feelings and beliefs of the far, far left--who will never, ever come to power as they remain politically frozen out of the mainstream while continuing to occupy the fringe and whose political beliefs the vast Americans categorically reject.

Oasis

[Bonobo]

56. Hint: It is not ALL about you. nt

[Bonobo]

49. Simply asserting that in emotional tones does not add weight to your assertion. nt

[defendandprotect]

72. Fascism is authoritarian rule -- not the voice of the people --

our "people's govenrment" was taken from us long ago by right wing political violence --

and government is now in the hands of corporations and their elected officials who will

do with our government what they wish --

Fascism is nothing new in the world -- but it is underpinned by political violence and

we've had more than 50 years of that in America!

Including 9/11 - MIHOP!

[Shining Jack]

53. Or Spain or

Italy, you are correct.

[Bonobo]

55. Obviously if Fascism arrived with a big sign that said "fascism", it wouldn't work.

So it comes, in disguise, draped in an American flag and succeeds as a result (if it does) of the fact that so many are blinded by the historical comparisons. That is the danger.

Like any organism or idea, it must adapt to its environment to be successful.

Boiling frogs have no idea what hot water is and there will be no clear and obvious line when it becomes "fascism"

The point is that we are heading in that direction and to deny it is simply ignorant.

[Shining Jack]

57. The Boiling frog is a great analogy.

Also the "It would never happen here" is really dangerous.

[SDuderstadt]

59. The "boiling frog" is a...

myth.

http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp

[Bonobo]

64. Link.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/analogy

[Name removed]

67. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Luminous Animal]

109. While it is not a scientific fact specific to an actual boiling frog (or frogs).

It's proverbial lesson applied to human beings is well established.

[Shining Jack]

118. +1

[dixiegrrrrl]

134. "So it comes, in disguise..."

[yodermon]

42. "fascistic" or "soft facisim" or "has elements of proto-fascism"

but you daren't call it full-bore "fascism" yet, lest you spawn an argumentative sub-thread.

[backscatter712]

47. Close enough to fascism that we need to be fighting against it. n/t

[Blue_In_AK]

52. It's been fascism for a long time. n/t

[Vinee]

54. plutocracy - the tyranny of money. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer

[Shining Jack]

58. Yes.n/t

[upi402]

63. 8. Religion and ruling elite tied together

Yes, but I wasn't in denial - so your great OP is edifying.

[defendandprotect]

73. True -- coincidentally W began subsidizing the Vatican's "faith-based" organizations just when they

desperately needed money for their pedophile priest lawsuits!!

[opihimoimoi]

90. 36 yup

[Donald Ian Rankin]

94. Dr Britt's 14 points are nonsense.

They were not put together as a way of characterising fascism, they were put reverse engineered as a way of "proving" that America is fascist.

Most of these points are actually nothing whatsoever to do with Fascism.

[Skip_In_Boulder]

128. ROTFLMAO

Boy, some people you can paint a picture for and they still just don't get it.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

131. Your painting is vivid, but not realistic.

Some *actual* characteristics of fascism include

:- State control of the media
:- The impossibility of replacing the government by elections
:- The ability of the state to imprison and disappear anyone it chooses without having to go through any kind of process.
:- Bans on campaigning against or criticising the government.

America is not merely not fascist, it doesn't even remotely resemble a fascist country.

[truebrit71]

137. I'll attempt a rebuttal to your points..

:- State control of the media - Not currently by the 'State' per se, but by the corporations that support the idea of a 'State'
:- The impossibility of replacing the government by elections - We "replaced" the government in 2008 and yet here we are with former regime policies still in place.
:- The ability of the state to imprison and disappear anyone it chooses without having to go through any kind of process. - Obama just signed an XO allowing him to do just that, essentially codifying the policy that was already in place from his predecessor.
:- Bans on campaigning against or criticising the government - See Scott Walker, Wisconsin.

Based on the 14 points in the OP, and the points I mentioned I would say we are at that threshold. Again Fascism doesn't = Nazism, ie it is not required to have death camps and stormtroopers for it to be fascism. The US has in fact been the very definition of fascism by Mussolini's standards for quite some time. It was only truly apparent after the coup in November 1963.

[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

139. I disagree.

>:- State control of the media.
>Not currently by the 'State' per se, but by the corporations that support the idea of a 'State'
You're suggesting the media on balance supports Obama? Yes, none of the mainstream media organisations support abolishing the state; no, that's nothing to do with supporting the government. The US has a vigorously oppositional media.

>:- The impossibility of replacing the government by elections - We "replaced" the government in 2008 and yet here we are with >former regime policies still in place.
Not true; there are a) moderate policy differences and also b) complete change of personnel. Yes, not everything we disagree with has changed; that's at least partly and arguably largely because much of the electorate don't want it to. But "fascism" and "democracy where some things are agreed upon" are not similar - the big hallmark of fascism is not merely that the course doesn't change (not infrequently fascist leaders do change their policies in response to popular demand), but that the helmsman doesn't.


>:- The ability of the state to imprison and disappear anyone it chooses without having to go through any kind of process. - >Obama just signed an XO allowing him to do just that, essentially codifying the policy that was already in place from his predecessor.
I'm highly sceptical of this claim - what does this XO actually say? Pinochet disappeared about 3000 civilians without any legal process. Let me know when Obama has disappeared, say, 3.

>:- Bans on campaigning against or criticising the government
>See Scott Walker, Wisconsin.
You mean the guy who is currently the subject of massive, vigorous, protests and criticism?

[truebrit71]

141. I also disagree..

1) The US has a vigourously oppositional media against THIS president, and liberals/democrats in general. They are very supportive of the Republicans agenda, and that is why major corporations continue to concentrate ownership of all forms of media and champion those politicians that are 'de-regulators' and hold pro-corporate stances.

2) Much of the electorate DID vote for 'change' and essentially got none. I'd argue that the course hasn't changed at all (the rich and corporations still get rich and the middle class and poor continue to get fucked), and a change in helmsman hasn't made one wit of difference to the wars being waged or the imprisonment of those that haven't been charged.

3) Name anyone currently in Gitmo. They have effectively been 'disappeared', and who knows what other shenanigans have taken place at Bagram (sp) and other military bases around the ME and Europe. In Florida a young pregnant working mother of two was FORCED to bed rest by the state and FORCED to undergo a C-Section without her consent or effective redress. So it happens here too.

4) Scott Walker banned signs etc in Wisconsin. The fact that there are brave souls ignoring that dictatorial proclamtion doesn't negate the fact that the State has banned it.

[Shining Jack]

120. K&R n/t

[Octafish]

133. Killing millions for oil is NAZI.

The USA's gone way past fascist.

[grahamhgreen]

142. Yes! It's fascism! From dudes who are paid to troll this board an hijack threads to

disdain for human rights and the working class, to endless wars and the new WI bill that allows the dissolution of elected bodies and thier replacement by corporations, fascism has taken hold in this country.

[Skip_In_Boulder]

150. Don't forget the corporate takeover of M.I. that happened yesterday.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=606489&mesg_id=606571

[felix_numinous]

145. Breaking up families

by enticing people to be more loyal to religious or political ideologies, is one powerful way to break up a culture. By interfering with family loyalties, a domestic police force can turn against their own families. this can explain why the oppression of women are so high on their agenda--if women lose their influence over their own children by becoming second class citizens, then the whole culture's paradigm shifts to total oppression. It goes hand in hand!

If you look around the world in the most oppressive governments, the police members are those who have been taken away at an early age from their families.

[Waiting For Everyman]

153. The religious right has been doing this since the 1980s.

I fought them in court for 5 years to keep my kids out of their clutches. (My ex came home one day and announced that he was "born again", and they split up our family and our business because I was labeled "demonic" for not buying into it.)

Nobody believed me at the time, when I tried to say how dangerous they are. Everyone assumed I must be the one who was wrong - against a squeaky clean church, right? They were the most perverted bunch of people I ever encountered, and that is the norm for them it's not an exception.

The "church leaders" stood in my own driveway and told me to my face that they were going to hold my children hostage (their words) in case I decided to tell what I knew about them (which was a lot - because I tried to put up with my ex's beliefs for a few years before I hit my endpoint with them).

The local court was totally in the pocket of the church, and I'm sure that hasn't changed. Everyone was stunned that I beat them at the very end of the case (divorce and custody). I did it by laying out 20 pages of facts in the court record about the church that totally freaked out the judge. He was actually sputtering after he read it and then slammed down the file on his bench, and then lit into my ex and his counsel. Wish I had that moment on videotape.

[felix_numinous]

158. Wow what a story

you have to feel good about how you fought for your kids, and I hope they appreciate that, or will someday. I cannot imagine what it took to stand up in court alone against these people. Respect.

Solidarity starts with loyalty to our families, adopted or blood, and with our communities, blood and adopted, and nothing is more powerful than that--which is why billions of dollars go into destroying this. Solidarity is the glue that holds any society together, and they are trying to break it up.

[Waiting For Everyman]

162. Thanks, felix_numinous

All of that was to say that your post was very on-target, and so is your observation about family and community. Contrary to the RW's family persona, they wreck families all the time. And that is no accident. Now they're doing a pretty good job of destroying lots of communities too. But hopefully, the tide might be turning against them.

The kids are grown up and they're doing ok, but they would've done a lot better without the trauma. They had a lot to overcome - credit to them, they're doing it. It's an ongoing process though - almost like overcoming an addiction, or PTSD, etc.

[Nye Bevan]

151. A democratically elected legislature passes a law we don't like

at the behest of a democratically elected Governor.

And the people of WI are perfectly free to elect representatives who will overturn this, at the next election.

The protestors have not been murdered, intimidated or beaten up.

Not fascism.

[truebrit71]

152. Wow.

.

[fascisthunter]

156. you don't even understand what fascism is

your concept of the ideology is purely cliche.

[Nye Bevan]

157. Under true fascism we would not even be able to have this debate

If this was truly fascism, the offices of DU would have been paid a visit and shut down long ago.

[zappaman]

159. Good point! n/t

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fascisthunter]

207. oh... corporations and the right wing are working on that right now, aren't they

suits against DU... paid trolls... attacking net neutrality... reading emails... wiretapping americans. snap out of it

[Hassin Bin Sober]

161. And The Fed just reported they could find no "illegally foreclosed" homeowners.

:eyes:

[truebrit71]

219. That was a story that hasn't recevied nearly enough attention..proof positive that the fix is in..

..and we are well and truly screwed...

[cleanhippie]

181. wow, dude, that is NOT what happened yesterday.

and fascism does not require murder or assault.

[tekisui]

154. Yes it is.

[libmom74]

167. A good friend

of mine from work grew up in Germany. She was about 9 years old when Hitler came to power, her dad was politically against the Nazi's so she and her sisters were removed from the home and sent to foster homes and her dad was imprisoned. She and I talk a lot about what is going on in the US today and about the Republicans agenda and she has told me that it really scares her because of the racism, the hysterical tone, the hypernaitonalism and scapegoating, the attacks on labor and many other things remind her of the beginning of Hitler's reign.

[SDuderstadt]

168. How old is your friend??? n/t

[libmom74]

169. she is in her

seventies but she is very active, she does those half triathalons and works part time as a nursing assistant.

[SDuderstadt]

172. You realize that her timeframe is impossible...

right?

[hughee99]

174. Hitler died in 1945, 76 years ago. n/t

[libmom74]

187. 2011-1945 = 66 years ago

if someone was born in 1933 they would be 78 yrs old, so it is not impossible. But you don't have to believe me if you don't want to just keep covering your eyes and ears and saying what is happening in the US is not fascism it isn't exactly the same as Nazi Germany.

[anneboleyn]

190. We were saying that she would not have direct memories of Hitler's rise to power

Being *born* in 1945 (defeated) Germany is much different than being nine when Hitler came to power in 1933 and sent to live with foster families, etc. as you originally stated.

[SDuderstadt]

195. You said she claimed she was...

9 when Hitler began his rise to power. By 1933, Hitler was already the dictator of Germany. Using that as the "date", she would have had to be born in 1924, which means she'd be 87 today. That means she would have absolutely no memory of what Germany was like during Hitler's rise.

Duh.

[hughee99]

205. Yes, you got me there,

A little brain fart, i was doing the math while trying to figure in the 9 (rounded off by me to 10) year difference

[anneboleyn]

189. Hitler came to power in 1933. Your friend at work is 87?

You stated that she is in her seventies, but that she was nine when Hitler came to power in 1933. 2011-75=1936. This would mean that she was nine when Hitler committed suicide in the Bunker, and Germany surrendered. She would have far more vivid memories of the war itself than of the early to mid 1930s rise of Nazism, I would think.

[libmom74]

192. sorry I should have

said while Hitler was in power, Lord have mercy! the point I was trying to make was that from our discussions it is scary how many similarities there are between what happened in Nazi Germany and what is happening now in the US now with the right wing/tea party. next time I talk to her I will interrogate her and get exact dates, names and if possible social securuty numbers of all of the parties involved.okay?

[SDuderstadt]

196. Why, yes...

when I left the house today, I was interrogated by the Gestapo, then later beaten to a pulp by the S.A. When I finally arrived home, I found that my front door had been busted down and my entire family sent to Birkenau.

How could I be so blind?

[Nye Bevan]

200. LOL. You really only need to have read one good book about Nazi Germany to realize how stupid

this "we are living in a fascist regime" talk is.

[truebrit71]

218. Fascism doesn't ONLY = Nazi Germany...

...you do realize that, right?

[intheflow]

202. Give it time.

Bradley Manning is an American, allegedly being beaten and interrogated by our government. Peaceful anti-war protesters in Minneapolis have had their doors kicked in within the last six months. Keep your head in the sand, it will keep you feeling safe and and smug.

[Nye Bevan]

204. Got a credible link for Bradley Manning being beaten? I hadn't heard that.

Feel free not to reply to this post if you are just making shit up.

[intheflow]

206. Oh, I'm sorry.

There's no proof he's being beaten but Amnesty International is investigating the probability of his being tortured. Pardon me for mixing my torture technique definitions. :eyes:
http://blog.amnestyusa.org/waronterror/inhumane-treatment-of-wikileaks-soldier-bradley-manning/

Meanwhile... Ray McGovern was beaten at a Hillary Clinton event for staging a peaceful, silent anti-war protest less than a month ago. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x555160

Also, have you seen wall-to-wall coverage of the Wisconsin protests on CNN, as we did with the Egypt protests? Or even if a hundred Teabaggers show up on the National Mall? No? Welcome to the wonderful world of propaganda, Hitler's favorite tactic for controlling the masses.

[SDuderstadt]

212. Aha!

The "you'll see/be sorry" argument.

[anneboleyn]

211. My thoughts exactly.

I empathize, deeply, with American workers who are being denied their bargaining rights. But let's be honest about these things. I have read enough studies of Nazi Germany to know that parallelisms are not rational, or fair to the many millions of people who suffered and died under the unbelievable brutality of that regime.

[Bonobo]

213. The OP is about fascism, not "Nazi Germany". nt

[anneboleyn]

214. ?? We were responding to the post titled "a good friend," which is part of this thread

This post focused specifically on Nazi Germany.

[Bonobo]

216. Yes, I see that now. nt

[intheflow]

201. My mother-in-law also grew up in Germany during WWII.

She says the same thing. :(

[DeSwiss]

191. K&R

"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." ~John Maynard Keynes

"The crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career." ~Albert Einstein

"It's impossible for capitalism to survive, primarily because the system needs blood to suck... And as the peoples of the world free themselves, capitalism has less victims, less to suck, and it becomes weaker and weaker. It's only a matter of time, in my opinion, before it will collapse completely." ~Malcolm X

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le9y22XsXy4&feature=feedu">We-Must-Shift-The-Paradigm

[MrMickeysMom]

208. I was ready yesterday...

... but too late to rec.

Oh well, KnR anyway.