Are we headed for a civil war in this country?

[Thunderstruck]

The way I see it, there are two diametrically opposing ideologies attempting to dominate the socio-political paradigm in America. On one side we have those who believe they need to bring their guns to an Atlanta pro-union rally while simultaneously attempting to characterize protesters in WI as "union thugs". On the other side are us progressives/liberals who just want fairness and equality and justice for all Americans.

For some time now I have been feeling that it is not possible for these opposing ideas of how life in these United States should be conducted to co-exist, are untenable, and will eventually lead to a violent confrontation. Given recent events in WI and elsewhere, and considering the ravings of the likes of Jeff Cox, Indiana deputy attorney general, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4744426#4744694">openly calling for the murder of liberals, are we closing in on the day when we see violent armed conflict between progressives and conservatives in the United States?

[MineralMan]

1. No. (nt)

[RedCloud]

103. And in any event the "union" won that civil war.

[Poboy]

2. Inevitably, if this shit keeps going. Still have a few years left though.

Things have to get worse, and given our willingness to keep taking it, they most assuridly will.

[Lisa D]

3. No. n/t

[Thunderstruck]

15. Well, my brother-in-law was this close to getting violent with me in a car

rolling down the highway simply because I am a union member.

So, you think we'll continue to live this way forever, with the conservatives ready to use violence at the drop of a hat?

[Initech]

68. Honestly, I'm scared shitless that this is the right-wing pundits' end game.

I'm really waiting for Limbaugh and all the rest of those fucking assholes to just say "it's time". :scared:

[Maru Kitteh]

79. A heated argument with your BIL does not equal civil war. He's probably way less brave with

people he doesn't know.

When exactly was this country NOT full of people who disagreed vehemently?

[MedicalAdmin]

94. No. In one generation the USA will be a theocratic fascist state

If you're lucky you'll die quick in the camps. Or maybe escape to Canada or Mexico on the underground railroad.

But civil war? Nope. Apathy? Yup.

[Deep13]

4. We're in what can be described as a civil cold war. nt

[RKP5637]

13. That's a good description IMO. n/t

[HereSince1628]

35. We are dancing on a flashpoint IMHO.

I agree that it's just policy at the moment, and the wounds don't bleed
That of course doesn't mean it isn't harming and even ending lives.

The assault by the Americans for Progress and it's kulaks in redstate governance has over-reached, if it doesn't contract there will be "all hell to pay." I don't want that, but then I didn't ask that the activist rich, like the Kochs and the Bradleys tear unions apart with no compassion for families.

The Koch's idea of a thousand points of light is something like the fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo.

[LaurenG]

5. I used to think it was inevitable when little George was in office

and it never happened. I can only say I hope not.

[Earth_First]

6. No.

Is it going to get very verbal and stalemate a lot of progress and leave us worse off, maybe.

[Tippy]

7. I fear you may be right......

[leftstreet]

8. No

As hard as the media try, the Teabaggers don't represent shit.

We're heading toward a Working class / Ruling class conflict. That's why the M$M keep trying to turn us against each other

[bdamomma]

19. working class vs ruling class, that is correct.

and I hope the working class win.

[Thunderstruck]

23. But haven't they turned us against each other? My BIL used to be friends. Now

he'd just as soon come to fisticuffs with me as discuss anything.

[leftstreet]

27. When gas is $15 a gallon, you'll be holding hands & singing kumbaya

Trust me

:hi:

[CanonRay]

31. No, they'll claim it was the liberal, environmentalist unions fault

and half the idiots in this country will believe them.

[barbiegeek]

50. @ $15/gal gas, hopefully they'll cancel cable & not see Fox

[Kennah]

63. Not true

You'll be saying, "Walk you little shit. I ain't gonna carry your ass to the store and back."

[Davis_X_Machina]

9. No.

Think of what it took to kick off the last one.

[SDuderstadt]

10. Nope n/t

[SidDithers]

11. No...nt

Sid

[villager]

12. Maybe. Perhaps we can learn from the Egyptians how to dislodge our elites through mass resistance

...instead of violence. Though given the American lust for things both violent and weapon-like, that could be a dubious prospect...

[NNN0LHI]

24. You want to be living under a military junta like the Egyptians currently are?

You are joking aren't ya?

Don

[villager]

56. So the alternative for them was to... do nothing? Go back home?

You're a champ at putting words in people's mouths, btw...

[NNN0LHI]

66. Holy shit you weren't joking

Tell me all your thoughts on banana fungus.

Don

[villager]

69. Holy shit, you really are that presumptuous and unclear-on-the-concept

though I'm sure you could put words the mouths of banana fungus, too. And scarcely be stopped by the fact they had no mouths!

And hey -- you didn't (of course) answer the question! So you're pro-Mubarak, right?

[Edweird]

14. No. We are, however, apparently going to suffer a deluge of hyperbole.

[Thunderstruck]

18. Hyperbole? So, you think we can continue this way indefinately? And, at what

point does hyperbole like Jeff Cox's go to before a shot is fired that is heard around the world?

[Edweird]

32. Nobody that understands what 'civil war' actually means wants it.

The signs you see about 'watering the tree of liberty' are all about intimidation. There are likely a few numbskulls that really do (think they) want civil war, but will rightly get their shit slapped down with the quickness if they try anything for real. There are enough veterans on both sides to inject a little reality into that particulary idiotic pipe dream. Both sides are armed - don't buy the propaganda that only RW'ers have guns. This means an instant stalemate - worst case scenario.

I find the fingernail-biting fearmogering over some asshat's tweet to be hyperbole of the worst sort. Get his dumb ass fired for it and move on.

The Federal Government has no qualms whatsoever about killing anyone that points a gun at them.

[Thunderstruck]

45. Why do you find it necessary to insult me by calling me a "fingernail-biting

fear-monger"? I stated a sound reason for wondering if a civil war is possible in this country and I wanted to know how others were feeling so I asked the question.

And who said anything about pointing a gun at the federal government? I'm talking about regular people with differing views getting violent in defense of those views. I know no less that 3 rethug/cons that are ready to kick my ass because I'm a liberal and defend liberal views and causes. Remember those town hall meetings on healthcare? What if the spark that lights the fires had happened there? What if it happened at a rally where a teabagger is hauling around a gun at a political campaign rally and decides to use it?

I respect your opinion that it's not going to happen and I respect your reasons why you believe it can't happen. As such, I expect you to treat me with respect instead of insulting me for exploring a possibility that could become by the violent action by the likes of stupid neanderthal teabaggers and conservatives who are ready to incite violence by showing up armed to union rallies in Atlanta or call for the use of live ammunition on liberals. You don't seem to understand that those people want us DEAD!

[Maru Kitteh]

80. You did not cite a sound reason. You do repeatedly talk about your asshole brother-in-law.

You two were BFF's and now you're not.

Anecdote is not evidence and it sure as hell ain't a civil war.

[Edweird]

100. Sorry, but I don't scare easily. Some dickhead RW'er wants me dead?LOL Then he can take a number

and wait his turn. The line forms to my right - single file in numerically ascending order. This whole "ZOMG they said something mean! It's teh civil warz!!111!!" nonsense is ridiculous. Seriously. I can't tell yet whether you are actually afraid or are trying to propagate - not that it really matters....

How did things work out for Jared Loughner? Timothy McVeigh? Randy Weaver? Eric Rudolph? Jim Adkisson?

Their stories aren't exactly 'inspiring' if you know what I mean.
Eric Rudolph plea bargained his way out of the death penalty.
Jared Loughner WILL be killed - due process takes time.
The rest are dead.
If some teabagger starts unloading his weapon in a crowd he WILL be killed. In case you hadn't noticed most Americans aren't big on the whole 'martyrdom' thing. It's a tough sell. I'm not worried.

[xchrom]

16. if -- and i say IF -- this recession were to double dip -- you might see some interesting things. nt

[quinnox]

17. At this point, I wouldn't mind if USA were split in two

One country for the liberals and Democrats, and one for the republicans and conservatives. This is getting so ridicuous the way the republicans act, its as if they are an alien species.

[Poboy]

21. Me either. I'd have to move, but lets get this shit over with.

[NoPasaran]

37. I would think we'd have dibs on the cool places, like New Orleans

I'd conceded Branson to the wingers, though.

[Kievan Rus]

58. I agree it would be great, as long as as the Teabagger country didn't have nukes...

because the Teabagger half would be stupid enough to actually use them.

[RSillsbee]

84. Who gets Colorado ? NT

[Skip_In_Boulder]

20. It has seemed to me for several years now that Republicans would

certainly like to see things go that way. I think there whole game plan is a controlled collapse of society.

[Tiggeroshii]

22. Nah-uh

[Imagevision]

25. No, it would prevent the rich & famous from getting their milk bread and butter delivered...

[foxfeet]

33. Let them eat santorum and smegma. n/t

[onehandle]

26. The Corporate Confederacy is going around the war and getting idiots just to vote them a win. nt

[d_r]

28. no

[DirkGently]

29. We are in a civil war. We need to resolve it without (more) bloodshed.

[readmoreoften]

30. Yes, but not likely within the next 12-24 months.

[madrchsod]

34. no.....

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Yes, cold civil wars move hot sooner or later

unless there is a mjor change in the dynamic,. We might be seeing it... but I cannot be sure of it yet.

[steve2470]

40. sincere question, what would be the main issue ?

In 1861, as we know, it was slavery.

Now, I cannot identify one issue that is THAT divisive. Yes, abortion is one of those "non-negotiable" issues but is it enough to provoke a civil war over ? I don't think so but I could be wrong, easily.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Two issues. The Abortion matter is how you divide the rubes

but yuo are seeing at play right now on the ground in Madison. It is about the rights of labor, and that is as large and big as ... slavery and cheap labor.

Cheap labor has been the axis of American history, that and race, which is tied to cheap labor.

No it is not freedom, liberty and all that... it is cheap labor. One side wants to abolish the 20th cnetury, the other wants to preserve some of it. And yes, it is that big,

[steve2470]

47. If the RW continues to grind us into the ground, then yes, I think that will be the issue

Time will tell. I hope Wisconsin is the turning point to a new progressive era.

[Thunderstruck]

51. I'm talking about ideology, not any specific issue. They HATE liberals and

they want us DEAD because of the things we believe in. We believe in equality for everyone, even if it's two men wanting to get married. They HATE that. HATE IT! And that's just one thing about liberals they hate.

Sooner or later something has to give.

[kevinbgoode]

76. Look...they hate EVERYBODY but their own reflection in the mirror.

Who is going to support them? Do you think anyone in another country would send them a slice of pizza? Or water? Hell, their own corporate masters would desert them in a heartbeat if they became too much of a financial drain. All they have is their delusions, their fear of 80 percent of the rest of their fellow citizens, and their obsession with having a "war" on everything. Frankly, I think a growing number of people are just sick and tired of listening to them run their mouths constantly glorifying themselves and blaming everyone else for their personal issues.

They declared war on the rest of America - and I mean ALL the rest of America - long ago. And then they declared war on the rest of the world as well. Their entire motivation is the "freedom" to fear without criticism. Yes - when they are unreasonable and raise their voice to a screaming level, they APPEAR scary. . .but they've also played that card so many times that more and more people are just rolling their eyes. Hell, even in online discussion forums, I find myself laughing at their attempts to push buttons - the key really is to stop letting them think every outrageous and stupid thing they say has any merit or power to affect others.

[Uzybone]

38. No

[Bragi]

39. I see violence, then chaos, then fascism

[murielm99]

41. No.

I worried about that, or an open coup, during the Nixon years. I think the system worked then, and it is working now.

We have the right to assemble and to bargain collectively. We have the right to oust the lawmakers who are not doing what they should be doing.

We have been through these fights before. We will lose a few, but in the long run, we will win.

[jpak]

42. Please give us a link to the gun-toters at the pro-union rally

I will post it the gun forum

[Thunderstruck]

49. Here you go:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x489026

[jpak]

52. Thank you

Yikes

:scared:

[Marblehead]

44. it will become unavoidable

once the middle class is gone

[Scurrilous]

46. No. n/t

[deutsey]

48. I don't know about a civil war, but I can see some ugly unrest like at the end

of the 19th century and early 20th if all this austerity/redistribution-of-wealth bullshit continues.

[Rabblevox]

53. Only if General Dynamics, Monsanto, et al see a profit in it. nt

[tomg]

92. And we have a winner.

You have it. And welcome to DU.

[Arkana]

54. No, I'd hope not.

The last one was terrible enough.

[cordelia]

55. No. n/t

[hack89]

57. No nt.

[Dash87]

59. Wolverines!!!

:)

[w8liftinglady]

60. unfortunately,this time- everyone lives amongst each other

The "horrible union" mantra has been well-scripted.
In Texas... where MANY senior family members belonged to unions at some time... they are incredibly anti-union
there will be civil disobedience,possibly.
In Texas, they will blame liberals,moslems,and gays.

[RagAss]

61. As long as it's over before Football season starts.

[bluestate10]

62. No.

What will happen first is that people of like political views will move to where their view is stronger. Northern conservatives will move south and southern and interior western liberals and moderates will move north and to the west coast. Then the states would then be ready to separate. I like the chances of the states that end up moderate and liberal having better living standard than the conservative states. Civil war will take place in the conservative states once the citizens there see how bad their standard of living will be without money from successful states.

[oldhippie]

64. I hope so .....

It's time to fish or cut bait. We have two Americas. Let's settle it.

[Kennah]

65. Strauss and Howe

Thom Hartmann scares the living shit outta me whenever he talks about William Strauss and Neil Howe, authors of "Generations" and "The Fourth Turning".

Their theory is that the repetition of four generational types, dating back to the War of the Roses, leads to crisis, depression and war every 80 years.

We are unfortunately due in the next 10 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss_and_Howe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss-Howe_generational_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourth_Turning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generations_%28book%29#List_of_Generations
http://www.conversationswithgreatminds.com

[BrotherLove]

67. 70,000 protesters, 3,000 Tea Baggers is the ratio, ever hear of General Custer? :-)

[guitar man]

78. LOL!!

Right on! :rofl:

[lonestarnot]

70. No, but they've stolen all the treasury and food could go to 80% of household budgets so we may have

to eat one another. Would you war over that?

[old mark]

71. If that is what it takes....nt

[nolabear]

72. No. If we're lucky, a civil discourse. But I think it's a long road to anywhere.

[fishwax]

73. no.

not that it could never happen again, but I don't think current circumstances make it likely at the moment ...

[Common Sense Party]

74. No, no matter how much some may wish for it. n/t

[Thunderstruck]

102. Show me EXACTLY where I indicated that I "wish for it". Also, show

me in the rules where it says you can make a comment about the poster rather than the message.

[WCGreen]

75. With race riots in several major cities, the KKK running wild in the south...

Several college campuses in turmoil, two assignations of popular populist political figures and people taking to the streets all over the country didn't tip us into Civil War so I think we are long way fro Civil War...

[ClassWarrior]

77. Why are there names I don't recognize suddenly all over GD calling for war? Hmmm?...

NGU.

[Maru Kitteh]

81. I'll take "things that make you go" for $500 Alex! n/t

[Rabblevox]

82. well, here's at least 1 newbie saying hell no to war of any variety...

I was a soldier. I've shot at people and been shot at. I was one of the lucky ones who got out with nothing more than nightmares and alcoholism.

I was a slow learner, but it finally came to me as a deep life-lesson that violence almost always turns on the perpetrator eventually.

I say no to physical violence (except in defense of yourself or others...I'm not a pacifist)

I say no to the idea that political solutions can be found through threats, intimidation, or guns.

I say no to the fiction that the real divide is between the "left" and the "right". (it's between Owners and Workers, kids)

I say YES to trying to fix our nation, as broken and fucked-up as it is. Because even as broken and fucked-up as it is, it was built on a radical and unique idea. That ordinary people should be in charge or their own lives, and that ordinary people could work together to find common solutions to common problems.

The task is overwhelming. We might very well fail. But civil war is not...cannot be a viable option.

[TxVietVet]

96. Rabblevox, a great post.

Those that preach violence with threats and intimidation usually will end when the violence turns on them.

I personally think until we get the money out of our election system, we are doomed to keep repeating this pattern until something gives. I believe that the conservanazis will finally decide that they are the power and will express their power with physical assaults which will end up with deaths.
Until we can change this climate of hate-filled attacks that are on our airwaves, it won't get better.

Until those with money and common sense come along and put a stop to this, we have to live through it.

I don't believe in using violence, but if attacked, one needs to respond to protect oneself and others.

[MedicalAdmin]

98. Right about everything except this.

Teh USA is not unique in being run by and for the common people. 235 years ago yes. Now? No. And we are hardly the best at it any more.

[tpsbmam]

99. Wow, excellent post, Rabblevox!

I love hearing from those who've been in the trenches, so to speak, who add a dose of reality. Excellent points. I count on liberals to get heated, get riled up, assert their rights, but to ultimately be able to step back and be rational. It's people like you who help the "step back" part happen.



:yourock: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[TBF]

90. Yes I noticed that as well. nt

[Thunderstruck]

101. Show me EXACTLY where I called for war. So, this is how someone is

treated on this forum for simply asking a question?

I will think long and hard before I post another OP on this website. You're making me out to be some kind of warmonger and YOU ARE WRONG.

Also, where in your comment are you addressing the content of the post and not the poster?

[RSillsbee]

83. An American civil war wouldn't happen in a vacuum

I promise you some body would step in and try to take over before we got too far into it

[musicblind]

85. We are in a Cold Civil War now...

We have been in a Cold Civil War for some time.

Let us all hope, and pray, that does it does not turn into a full blown Civil War.

If we can just wait long enough the conservatives will eventually die off. That is how progress has usually worked in the past. It is sad to have to wait, but better than fighting a war that kills families and neighbors.

[quaker bill]

86. No

When the revolution does come, it will not resemble a civil war. There will be a point, like during the great depression, that while not everyone will get it, the vast majority will get it, and the ballot box will be the instrument of revolt. It is however entirely likely that some will get hurt in the process. Had it started in 2004, the change could have been managed at a reasonable pace. Had it started in 2008 the change would have been a challenge but workable. It will now be at least 2012 or 2014 before we get going on it, so the change will be much more abrupt and discomforting.

The path we are on is unsustainable, this lack of sustainability is already manifest in ballooning deficits, maldistribution of wealth, and the related cuts to social services. The end of this path is inevitable and always has been since we started down this road in 1980. The only question has ever been just how heavily gutted this society will be when we call a halt to it. I think we are approaching the point, but don't seem quite there yet.

[Dogtown]

87. Possibly

There will *certainly* be more incidences of violence. Let's hope the clashes remain isolated.

[AlinPA]

88. Not in the sense that there will be a revolution like the US civil war, but party vs party or

left vs right could get violent with a "shooting" war between the two. Those republicans are crazy and if things don't go their way they could move to real violence.

[TBF]

89. Those two "ideologies" are a smokescreen for capital robbing us blind -

if we fight the party vs. party war nothing will change. Gotta go after the real problem ...

[justiceischeap]

91. I think yes but not in the typical fashion that you're thinking of

There's no reason to have a traditional war-like civil war. What with the Patriot Act and eroding our rights, the elite are slowly taking over. I also don't think it'll come down to right vs. left but rich vs. everyone else. I can see in my lifetime a theocracy in place in the US if people continue to be as apathetic as they are about their rights and politics. You can see from the posts on this board how the republicans are "attacking" social change, women, LGBT community any and all types of programs that usually support Dem voters. I don't think that's an accident and in a way, if you can "kill" off future Dems by not allowing them health care, then you're winning the "war," aren't you?

I really don't see anyone rising up violently in this nation until the class wars affect the majority of Repubs too.

[TxVietVet]

93. I think we'll see a few more incidents like Arizona

with conservanazis and teabaggin' kkkluckers. They'll bring their guns to intimidate a rally that they don't support and finally use them. Then, just maybe, either the M$M or the rest of the country will wake up and see how the rethugliklans and their brownshirts operate, expose it for it's hatred and there will be change for the better. Other than that, o'liely, druggie limpballs, hannity, caribou barbie and the rest of the conservanazi hate machine may call for all out civil war before it finally ends with the destruction of our democracy.

The rich and powerful are trying everything they can to silence protests against them. The protest in Wisconsin is against them. It is ground zero for the rethugliklans to stop the Unions which actively support the Democrats. It's not about money. It's all about power. Nothing about democracy. Power and money.

I know lots of gunnut conservanazis in Wisconsin and those dumbasses will be the first to bring a gun to intimidate and kill. Talking politics with them is a good way to start a fight. But, many of them are just true-believing reich wingnuts. No balls, just bu$hit.


I don't see this ending on a good note. I could be very wrong. That's just my opinion.

[tammywammy]

95. No n/t

[EstimatedProphet]

97. I think yes. Here's why:

It won't come from our side, so all the talk on this board about how We The People will rise up and overthrow the corporations is not going to happen. What I am afraid will happen is that the crazystupid on the right, who keep getting more and more enraged at the lies Fox and the rightwing propaganda outlets keep pumping them, are going to reach a boil-over point. At some point someone with influence and no scruples (maybe even Beck) will go all in, and put out the message that it's time to kill all the liberals NOW. And the crazystupid will go off, because that's what they're waiting for.

If you don't think this is coming, I would remind you of how much the number of hate groups has risen in just the last couple of years in this country. I would remind you of Shawna Ford, Jared Loughner, David Adkisson, Tim McVeigh. These people decided to go off on their own - imagine what would happen if their leaders told them to go off in unison. Also, there are reports that the anti-government paramilitary organizations are having problems keeping their members in line, because they are getting impatient with not attacking.

So, an official civil war? No. Coming violence? It's just a matter of time.

[vim876]

104. War? Not likely.

Secession? Maybe.

If our last civil war was any indication, it'd require half of the country to leave and the other half to be upset about it. I'm not seeing that second part happening. Have a great time, Jesusland, and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.