Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

[FourScore]

Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus
AP
By JIM VERTUNO, Associated Press Jim Vertuno, Associated Press – Sun Feb 20, 2:24 pm ET

Texas is preparing to give college students and professors the right to carry guns on campus, adding momentum to a national campaign to open this part of society to firearms.

More than half the members of the Texas House have signed on as co-authors of a measure directing universities to allow concealed handguns. The Senate passed a similar bill in 2009 and is expected to do so again. Republican Gov. Rick Perry, who sometimes packs a pistol when he jogs, has said he's in favor of the idea.

Texas has become a prime battleground for the issue because of its gun culture and its size, with 38 public universities and more than 500,000 students. It would become the second state, following Utah, to pass such a broad-based law. Colorado gives colleges the option and several have allowed handguns.

Supporters of the legislation argue that gun violence on campuses, such as the mass shootings at Virginia Tech in 2007 and Northern Illinois in 2008, show that the best defense against a gunman is students who can shoot back...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110220/ap_on_re_us/us_guns_on_campus_5

[MadMaddie]

1. Texas the home to one of the first Sniper shootings on a campus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

What could possibly go wrong with students with mental issues having guns on campus?

[social_critic]

2. I think this opens up a business opportunity for the country's economy

Think about it, this could be good for the country's economy. First you got to get handguns for the student body. Then you got the bullets, and the safety glasses, holsters...and then there's the shooting range business (they do need to learn to shoot). But the real BIG business line will be bullet proof vests and helmets. Because some of those handguns could be magnums, the vests will have to be military style, Kevlar with ceramic plates, weigh about 25 lbs.

So this generates additional business for gyms, because students are going to have to get in shape to carry vest, helmet, bullets, and gun - plus the backpack with books and computer.

And then there's the trauma business line - all those students who do manage to get shot because they didn't buy the proper defensive gear or draw fast enough will need trauma care. And then there's the casket market, and the cremation services. And the cards for the bereaved.

I think the opportunities are endless. This could be bigger than Iraq for the economy.

And then there's the evolutionary issue. Because students who learn to dodge bullets or draw fastest will be the ones who survive, the professional class in America will have much faster reflexes. And this has to be good for something in the future. If we get invaded by space aliens, we're gonna kick their butts.

[FourScore]

8. LOL. I guess I just wasn't looking at it from the right perspective! n/t

[social_critic]

11. Like President Bush said, it's the economy that counts

I'm always putting numbers to all these issues. I think I must be a math nerd. Which reminds me, I need to show you guys my estimate of the number of bullets the US army uses for each Taliban killed. Last time I did it, I got 156,000 bullets per Taliban. With that money, we could buy Jamaica and turn it into a huge Club Med.

[WinkyDink]

32. Money trumps peace.

[petronius]

Whitman travelled to the campus that day specifically to commit murder, as

anyone - student or otherwise - is able to do. And your link indicates that it was other shooters, presumably carrying legally, who played a role in stopping him (or at least slowing him down)...

[MadMaddie]

10. This is true

Those other shooters were itizens that came from off campus to help the police. The police were not carrying rifles and the citizens had them. If you get a chance to see the documentry it is chilling. It was an officer and a civilian that went up the tower and took him out.

My point is that our mentally ill are not treated in this country often ignored. They can get weapons easily. Put more weapons in a volitle environment with you twenty somethings and a dollop of liquor and you have issues. I went to college in TX and I know exactly what that environment is like.

I wonder about how safe the students who don't own guns and don't want to own guns feel? Do they feel safe? What about weapons getting stolen from students rooms? Campuses can't control theft of basic items, what are they going to do with the theft of weapons? Campus police, how are they going to know if a student is a threat or not?

[petronius]

63. You do raise important concerns, and I doubt you'll find much argument that

in general we need to pay more attention to the mentally ill, and do a better job of treatment, and in the case of firearms a much better job of getting the truly ill on the prohibited lists. Theft is also an issue, and I'd expect that attention would need to be paid to storage by people taking a gun to the dorm (that would be a reason for me not to take one, if I were a student still).

I'm not so convinced by the 'wild and crazy college kids' argument though. Firstly, we're talking about a self-selected group who will have gone through the process of getting the CCW, and thus will have demonstrated awareness of the relevant laws and responsibilities and procedures (correct me if I'm wrong, but I have the sense this isn't about anyone who chooses to store a gun in the dorm being able to. And in fact, I'd be in favor of policies and restrictions governing that, although not a flat ban necessarily). Also, I'll bet that the vast majority of fraternity houses around the country - stereotypically the wildest and craziest part of the college scene - already contain at least on firearm, and the problems predicted with the story in the OP haven't happened - no frat-house bloodbaths, no mistaken police shootings, and so on (or at least, not more than anywhere else).

So to me, it boils down to a 'they just shouldn't be there' sort of argument, which I find unconvincing. I need to see data and empirical justifications before I'll support (or stop opposing) a ban on anything...

[The Straight Story]

13. If they had a law back then banning guns, he wouldn't have shot those folks eh?

Anyone who is going to ignore the law against murder isn't going to give a damned about a law against carrying a gun somewhere.

[WinkyDink]

33. He might have been stopped at the point of purchase.

[rdking647]

17. texas guns

i dont see to many college kids going thru the trouble to get a cc permit.. among other things you must be 21 so that will limit it to mostly seniors. you have to take a 10-15 hour course taught by a licensed instructor to get a permit. the course costs a couple of hundred bucks. also simply carrying a gun while intoxicated is a crime.
the whole list of FAQ's is here
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/chlfaqs.htm

frankly I dont think its that big of a deal..

[hamsterjill]

24. I think there will be those who do it.

My rich Republican boss's idiot son paid for a group of his friends to take the course. It was a social gathering. I'm sure they paid a whole lot of attention! In this case, it was a status symbol.

And no, the idiot son should NOT be carrying a gun.

[rdking647]

28. guns

just like there are idiots who shouldnt be driving a car their are idiots who shouldnt carry a gun. that fact is we have a right to guns in this country. and based on the experience of colleges that do allow students to carry guns i dont think its a big deal

[Statistical]

60. Idiot or not if he meets the criteria for carrying a firearms he should be able to carry a firearm.

Under current law he could carry almost everywhere in TX except a campus. The law would simply include campuses.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

3. the carry restriction ON campus will be the same as they've been OFF campus.

Only 21 or older.
Must pass background checks.
Fingerprints & photographs.
Permits ussued by police departments.
Guns must remain concealed.
No carrying in bars.
No carrying while intoxicated.

As long as the same restrictions are applied to the adults carrying on campus as they are OFF, I don't see much issue here. Perhaps some special attention to address any storage issues with so many other people around. Other than that... I had a concealed carry permit when I was in college - No big deal.

[Jmaxfie1]

6. I don't know

I'm usually all for the right to carry firearms, but this just makes me a little uneasy, I don't know why. At the same time I can't really get all up in arms about it. I guess my opinion is lets wait and see how it works out.

[Jmaxfie1]

7. haha, pun unintentional

I just realized I said "up in arms"

[X_Digger]

12. We can look at Utah and Colorado..

All Utah schools and some Colorado schools have allowed it, hasn't been a problem so far.

[jpak]

23. But gun laws don't work

so we are told

yup

[X_Digger]

29. Gun laws tend to work for those who are predisposed to follow them..

.. for criminals? Not so much.



This is the rate among themselves of CHL holders in Texas compared to the general public over 21.

Sources:
http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/CHS/popdat/detailX.shtm
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/demographics.htm
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm

[jpak]

37. Then ban guns on campus

yup

[X_Digger]

38. Did you not understand, or are you being intentionally obtuse?

I really want to know.

[jpak]

40. If guns laws "don't work", then CCW restrictions "won't work" either - the logical end point is

Ban CCW on campus

yup

[X_Digger]

41. Intentionally obtuse, it is. Thanks for clarifying.

These same people, 21+ with a clean criminal record, carry off-campus, overwhelmingly without incident.

What is your objection to these rather scrupulous people carrying on-campus?

CHL Holders will obey the law.

Criminals bent on mayhem won't bother with whether guns on campus are legal or not..

[spin]

42. Do you serious believe that a person planning to massacre a large number of people ...

will be at all concerned about a law that says he can't carry a weapon on campus?

Such a person is looking for a shooting gallery where he can rack up a high score without resistance. If honest people with legal weapons are on campus, including both instructors and students, the shooter might decide to go elsewhere.

[jpak]

46. That is the NRA's logic "gun laws don't work so repeal them all"

and put more guns on the street.

It's insanity

yup

[spin]

51. Can you provide any proof that the NRA wants to repeal all gun laws ...

It's extremely easy to post nonfactual comments on a discussion board. In order to have a serious discussion, you have to present some evidence to back up your position or statement.

It's my opinion that the NRA does support firearm laws that work. I'll back that statement up with this excerpt:

FABLE III: NRA opposes all "reasonable" gun regulations.

Anti-gun activist groups claim that all of their proposals--including gun bans, prohibitive taxes, registration and licensing to name a few-- are "moderate and reasonable." Those who oppose such ideas, they say, are "unreasonable." And they claim that NRA opposes all gun laws. The truth is, NRA supports many gun laws, including federal and state laws that prohibit the possession of firearms by certain categories of people, such as convicted violent criminals, those prohibiting sales of firearms to juveniles, and those requiring instant criminal records checks on retail firearm purchasers.1

NRA has also assisted in writing gun laws. The 1986 federal law prohibiting the manufacture and importation of "armor piercing ammunition" adopted standards NRA helped write.2 When anti-gun groups accuse NRA of opposing the law, they lie. NRA, joined by the Justice Department and Treasury Department, opposed only earlier legislation because that legislation would have banned an enormous variety of hunting, target shooting and defensive ammunition.3 The sponsor of the earlier bill, Rep. Mario Biaggi (D-N.Y.), felt that his original goals were met by the NRA-backed bill that became law. "Our final legislative product was not some watered-down version of what we set out to do," Biaggi said on the floor of the House. "In the end, there was no compromise on the part of police safety."

Similarly, the anti-gun lobby also continues to falsely claim that NRA opposed all efforts to ban "plastic guns." In truth, no "plastic" firearms existed then or now. NRA only opposed a bill that would have banned millions of commonplace handguns, and instead supported an alternative, the Hughes-McCollum bill. That 1988 legislation prohibited the development and production of any firearm that would be undetectable by airport detectors, and enhanced airport security systems to counter terrorism. In the end, the NRA-backed legislation passed Congress with wide bipartisan support and was signed into law by President Reagan.

At the state level, NRA has worked with legislators to write laws requiring computerized "instant" criminal records checks on purchasers of firearms and those who carry firearms for protection in public. Because crime can be reduced by correcting deficiencies in criminal justice laws and policies, NRA has worked with legislators and citizens' groups in many states to increase the length of prison sentences for violent criminals, to sentence violent criminals to prison rather than probation, to prevent the parole of the most violent convicts, and to expand prison capacity.
http://www.nraila.org/issues/articles/read.aspx?id=209

[spin]

65. I didn't expect you to reply to post #51 and you didn't let me down ...

You're all hat and no cattle.

all hat and no cattle

Adjective

1. (US, idiomatic) Full of big talk but lacking action, power, or substance; pretentious
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/all_hat_and_no_cattle

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. Multiple Duplicate

[slackmaster]

5. If only DU had a forum dedicated to firearm policy issues. Someone might discuss this story there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=381289&mesg_id=381289

[jpak]

21. We do - but some call it "spam"

yup

[Upton]

34. Well you know..

some folks try to spam that forum with anti gun propaganda.

yup

[jpak]

35. It is not the DU pro-gun forum or the DU anti-gun forum, It is where gun issues are discussed

and...it is not an echo chamber for NRA talking points

yup

[Crystal Clarity]

52. +1

WTG jpak! :thumbsup:

yup

[Ilsa]

9. But private universities could still restrict on-campus gun-toting, couldn't they? nt

[rdking647]

18. yes

[JoePhilly]

14. Its not like drunken college students would ever shoot each other.

[Statistical]

47. Its not like drunken college student would ever shoot each other OFF CAMPUS.

The bill would simply make ON CAMPUS exactly the same as OFF CAMPUS in the eyes of the law.

Utah passed a similar bill and it was (despite the gnashing of teeth) a complete non-issue.

[LeftinOH]

15. They should call this the "Charles Whitman bill". n/t

[X_Digger]

16. Sure, since it was citizens with rifles who kept Whitman pinned down...

forcing him to use the rainspouts, limiting his targets.

[jpak]

22. He kept shooting - the civilian gun fire was ineffectual, trained law enforcement stopped him

Guns off campus - only campus police should carry guns.

Most colleges and universities have warning systems to rapidly inform students and lock-down buildings in case of a gun incident - police respond quickly.

as they should

yup

[X_Digger]

26. You should actually read the accounts of the officers..

They thanked the citizens who kept him pinned down, keeping him from being able to fire indiscriminately.

[Statistical]

49. "- police respond quickly"

Like Virginia tech?

BTW many of the officers responding publicly thanked the civilians. Said without them they never would have gotten a clear shot.

[WinkyDink]

31. Were those the special concealed rifles, hmmmm?

[X_Digger]

36. You're right- Whitman is not germane to the discussion..

You should take that up with the author of post #15.

[MadHound]

19. Let's see here, young, rowdy, possibly drunk college students with guns,

Naw, nothing could go wrong here:eyes:

Sad irony that this is going to be law on the campus where the first modern mass shooting took place.

[Badfish]

20. You know what I love...

when a hunter is climbing a tree and shoots himself dead on accident.

One of these teabaggers is gonna put a bullet through their own gut sooner than later.

[raccoon]

25. If this passes, and someone is shot on campus, can they sue the college?

Sue them and have at least a chance of getting something out of them.

I hope this dumbass idea doesn't spread.

[spin]

43. If the college doesn't provide adequate security and bans firearms ...

people that are shot by a "shooter" running amok should also be able to sue the college.

If the college insists on honest people with a concealed weapons permit being disarmed while on campus, it should provide metal detectors and armed security in every building.

[rainbow4321]

45. The local news quoted my daughter's campus police chief

Who said that there was a big concern that this would lead to confusion amongst his officers if there is a shooting and there is more than one person at the scene with a gun or seen running around carrying a gun. The news anchor was trying to blow that scenario off by saying "well, surely an officer would NOT shoot first and ask questions LATER"...pfffftt....yeah, I'm sure it will be a nice, calm, controlled event with questions being asked like "excuse me, are you the initial shooter or are you just going by the new campus/gun laws?"

[X_Digger]

50. With 6.5 Million concealed carry licensees surely there must be at least one example..

where the police mistakenly identify a CHL holder as the shooter, right?

Florida has had 'shall issue' concealed carry since 1987, Washington since 1961.

If the chief's concerns were valid, surely there should be an example of that happenning, correct?

[SoCalDem]

27. Sounds like a business opportunity.

Towns with colleges might be needing new Funeral Homes:(

[WinkyDink]

30. SICK -X- INFINITY. There is NO REASON TO ALLOW GUNS IN CLASSROOMS.

No, I DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR ASININE "2ND AMENDMENT" ARGUMENT, OR "SELF-DEFENSE" CLAP-TRAP.

[spin]

44. A when another shooting occurs and dozens of people are shot ...

you can cry about how firearms should be banned.

All too often people with severe mental problems view a college campus as a shooting gallery. They look for a place where they can rack up a high score of kills.

If the college campus does not provide adequate security including metal detectors on all buildings and armed security inside, than it temps disaster.

[Lucian]

39. Yee haw!

I wonder if Texas realizes that the West hasn't been wild since the early 1900s...

[spin]

48. The "Wild West" is a myth created in Holleywood ...

Dispelling the myth of 'The Wild West'
* February 17th, 2009 9:48 am CT


The dime store novel image of the West

In his book, Frontier Violence: Another Look, author W. Eugene Hollon, provides us with these astonishing facts:

* In Abilene, Ellsworth, Wichita, Dodge City, and Caldwell, for the years from 1870 to 1885, there were only 45 total homicides. This equates to a rate of approximately 1 murder per 100,000 residents per year.
* In Abilene, supposedly one of the wildest of the cow towns, not a single person was killed in 1869 or 1870.

Zooming forward over a century to 2007, a quick look at Uniform Crime Report statistics shows us the following regarding the aforementioned gun control “paradise” cities of the east:


* DC – 183 Murders (31 per 100,000 residents)
* New York – 494 Murders (6 per 100,000 residents)
* Baltimore – 281 Murders (45 per 100,000 residents)
* Newark – 104 Murders (37 per 100,000 residents)
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-minneapolis/dispelling-the-myth-of-the-wild-west

[Lucian]

53. Yeah, I'm taking that with a grain of salt.

It was written by a gun rights person.

No thanks.

[spin]

55. How about this article ...

Old West violence mostly myth
Cooperation valued more than conflict

Jul. 17, 2005 12:00 AM

***snip***

My colleague Terry Anderson and I have been studying the history of the West for nearly 30 years. We found that wherever "people on the ground" got together, they generally found ways to cooperate rather than fight.

***snip***

There were, of course, a few exceptions to the story of harmonious relations. After the Civil War, the nation had a standing army that did not have much to do. Settlers were much more likely to call upon the cavalry to take land from the Indians than to engage in trade with the native tribes, as they had previously done.

There were fisticuffs in barroom brawls. When a large group of unattached males had time on their hands, violence could erupt.

However, even in a cattle town like Abilene, Kan., the murder rate was much lower than in most modern American cities. Larry Schweikart, a historian at the University of Dayton, estimates that there were probably fewer than a dozen bank robberies in the entire period from 1859 through 1900 in all the frontier West. Schweikart summarizes: "The record is shockingly clear: There are more bank robberies in modern-day Dayton, Ohio, in a year than there were in the entire Old West in a decade, perhaps in the entire frontier period!"
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/0717hill0717.html

Or this article:

6 Ridiculous History Myths (You Probably Think Are True)

***snip***

But in Reality...

How many murders do you suppose these old western towns saw a year? Let's say the bloodiest, gun-slingingest of the famous cattle towns with the cowboys doing quick-draws at high noon every other day. A hundred? More?

How about five? That was the most murders any old-west town saw in any one year. Ever. Most towns averaged about 1.5 murders a year, and not all of those were shooting. You were way more likely to be murdered in Baltimore in 2008 than you were in Tombstone in 1881, the year of the famous gunfight at the OK Corral (body count: three) and the town's most violent year ever.


Why Do We Believe It?

Because famous gunfighters like Billy the Kid wanted you to believe it. If you've seen Young Guns on cable, you probably know the guy was gunning somebody down every ten minutes!

Well according to sources who aren't Billy The Kid, his lifetime kill count was four. Criminals inflated their murder stats for the same reason guys today inflate their sexual experience: It made them look cool. Towns like Deadwood talked up their violent, lawless natures in order to attract adventurous settlers. Books were written about them and movies were made as soon as cameras were invented, and nobody who'd been out west was rushing to correct the misconceptions because, why the hell would they. A century and a half later, we still love that lie.
http://www.cracked.com/article_18487_6-ridiculous-history-myths-you-probably-think-are-true.html

Of course you can go on believing in the myth if you chose. You never claimed to be a history professor.

[Lucian]

56. Yeah, don't care.

This all comes down to pointless pandering.

[spin]

61. Well at least we agree that further discussion is pointless ...

Enjoy your Westerns.

[last_texas_dem]

54. Good to see our dumbass lege has its priorities straight

Can't find any money for new school textbooks in the budget, but they do find plenty of time to waste on pointless pandering like this.

[Tejas]

64. HS football is even more important

than textbooks, just ask Friday night fans.

[bullwinkle428]

57. So let's say you have a Virginia Tech type situation occur on campus.

You emerge from the classroom, weapon in hand, at the sound of multiple gunshots at the same time that several other students from other classrooms do the same thing.

How do you decide when and whom to shoot?

[X_Digger]

58. First, you don't draw until you have the target in sight.

Second, most people with a CHL carry to protect themselves, not play hero.

[Statistical]

62. You do what the CCW in Arizona did.

You wait until you have a good shot on a clearly identified target. You don't draw until you have ID a target, you don't shoot until you have confirmed the shoot is clear.

In AZ when he arrived on the scene there was no clear shot so he didn't draw or fire.

Millions of people carry firearms everyday, in almost every state, and in large crowded venues (like shopping malls). Statistically CCW shoot the wrong target LESS OFTEN than Police Officers do.

[hack89]

59. Good. nt