Urban Prep all male charter sends 100% of graduating class to college!!

[Pisces]

I know this is very unpopular on this board, however, here is an example of the urban charter working. This is about saving the children and specifically ending the poverty cycle. Most of these kids
would be on the streets if not for this program. It is so much more than a public school could or should provide, yet it is what is needed in this community to make these young men successful.

Why someone would tear this down is beyond me. It is not what is being recommended for all communities or all public schools, it is what is needed in these urban communities to break the drug cycle,
the poverty cycle. As Americans we should get behind something that works, especially in a community where we are losing our black young men to prison instead of college.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/16/urban-prep-100-percent-of_n_824286.html

[blondeatlast]

1. Did that include all the special needs and learning disabled kids they educated?

How many SN and LD did they have this remarkable success with?

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. Five percent of the first incoming freshmen read at grade level.

[blondeatlast]

8. So,, they were what--developmentally challenged? Physically?

Did this school NOT exercise it's right to refuse kids who were handicapped?

Wow, they really are amazing, if so.

[Pisces]

11. THey were challenged by their environment, and former teaching. Maybe read the article before

attacking the concept or the accomplishment.

[blondeatlast]

17. I did. My dad was a tenant farmer in the Depression and he managed

to get a PhD--oh, and to teach the developmentally disabled.

Not impressed, sorry.

[Pisces]

18. Good for him, that does not discount the current situation of our urban youth or the prison stats.

Stay on your high horse, while others try and change the situation at hand.

[msanthrope]

36. Please don't think that facts will derail anti-charter rants on this board--but a GREAT story, thank

you for posting...

It seems that here, you have teachers dedicated to their students, students dedicated to their education, and a constructive environment. Good for them!

[KittyWampus]

88. so your Dad pulled himself up by his bootstraps. Spoken like a Republican-

whether you realize it or not.

[blondeatlast]

96. Aren't you clever? What part of a "public education" and the GI Bill

do you need explained to you?

Fuck charters taking my tax money to discriminate--but if your okay with that, we can both lob the "Republican" charge, I suppose.

[NotThisTime]

24. Their admissions is non-selective by lottery only, whoever gets in gets in

[ClassWarrior]

29. And the hundreds of kids who don't are left with impoverished public schools.

That's fair. :eyes:

NGU.

[WatsonT]

112. Indeed, we should strive not to improve any schools

until we can guarantee that every single one will be improved the exact same amount at the same time.

Likewise no one gets any new roads or infrastructure until we can find a way to do all infrastructure improvement simultaneously.

[joshcryer]

166. Fix the public schools.

[MattBaggins]

98. Is it a true lottery or a quasi-lottery?

Can anyone apply or do you have to meet certain prerequisites and then you get added to the lottery?

[NotThisTime]

163. True lottery, no prerequisites... and it's unfortunate not every student who wants to go will get

the chance.... very unfortunate.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. Selection is by lottery.

Nothing in the article suggests that ESL or IEP students were excluded.

[MattBaggins]

65. I will bet a brazillion dollars that counseling out is not by lottery.

I am also pleased as punch for all the girls that got a chance as well.

Oh wait

[MattBaggins]

70. Strange they don't give the SAT or just don't have the results?

http://www.greatschools.org/modperl/achievement/il/7574#standards

Doubly strange is the PSAE scores.
http://www.greatschools.org/modperl/achievement/il/7574#standards
They did show some improvement but what is with only 25% of the students meeting or exceeding the standards yet all getting in to college?

Did this school have very good financial aid and advisers to help the students get into community colleges? Why don't we just do the same for the other schools?

So despite being an "urban" school, 47% of the students are not low income.


School only has a 2 out of 10 rating.
http://www.greatschools.org/illinois/chicago/7574-Urban-Prep-Academy-Charter-High-School/#from..HeaderLink

And they dropped their math scores
http://www.education.com/schoolfinder/us/illinois/chicago/urban-prep-academy-charter-hs/#test-scores

[Hello_Kitty]

78. Probably a lot of the graduates are going to community colleges.

Which is a good thing but it's not like they have rigorous entrance requirements.

[lumberjack_jeff]

101. Given that less than 5% of incoming freshmen could read at grade level.

Kudos are still in order.

[Hello_Kitty]

105. Do you know how many community college students can barely read?

A lot. You're right, though, kudos are in order because it's likely that not many of those guys would be finishing high school or going to college were it not for this school.

[MattBaggins]

106. I gave those Kudos... Now on to the outright lie

How did all the kids get to college with no SAT scores and overall tests scores that were still lower than the district the school is in?

Something strange in the neighborhood.

ON EDIT: My mistake the report was on the ISAT which is not the SAT.

But the other test scores are still strangely low to have all the students going to college.

[NotThisTime]

164. Not true, the article clearly stated these were four year Universities

[Gaedel]

107. Maybe, just maybe........

Single sex education is superior to coeducation for boys, for girls, or for boys AND girls.

As long as we are doing these charter experiments, just possibly this might be one of the experiments to try.

I can see lots of advantages of single sex education.

[MattBaggins]

109. How about we don't do separate but equal experimentation

How about if we don't go back 50 years and have schools for whites and blacks, boys and girls, haves and have nots?

[Pisces]

130. The girls are not going to prison at the rate the boys are. No one is saying forget about them,

however, it is a true epidemic of black male youth. The cycle must be broken. I hope the air on your high perch is fresher than the ones those kids are breathing. You are basically saying that they should fail and suffer the consequences because it is not fair to all. Life is not fair, nothing is fair. White male privilege isn't fair but it exists.

[MattBaggins]

133. Stop it with the "white man's burden"accusations.

There is no need to segregate girls from boys to improve our schools. If you really want to do that, do so without public dollars.

One could say you have the "white man's" view with your strange notion that black males have to be segregated in order for them to be able to learn. I find that a very strange notion.

[Pisces]

134. Separation of sexes between males and females is not a new concept or experimental. It has been

proven to work as many elite schools are gender segregated. This is false outrage on your part. The school does not segregate based on race.

[MattBaggins]

138. Please demonstrate that it has been "proven".

This very school in question, despite the bogus college claim, is showing that it does not make a difference. There is no need to segregate our schools to teach our kids.


Elite schools + segregated = successful is an extremely spurious correlation.

[lumberjack_jeff]

146. Single sex schools are correlated with better outcomes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/5008712/Girls-do-better-in-single-sex-schools.html

http://boyseducation.blogspot.com/2009/11/boys-learn-differently-thats-why-all.html

[MattBaggins]

147. Spuriously Correlated

Correlation does not equal causation.

[lumberjack_jeff]

170. That's true. The correlation between co-ed schools and poor outcomes does not equal causation. n/t

[Pisces]

151. Thank you. We have to be open to different approaches to save our youth. This school is working

for many of these students, yet I see people on this board trying to knock it down and deriding the students who graduated as not going to real colleges. What is wrong with us that everything including children has to be a win/ lose or an us vs them mentality.

We want our children to win, we want to find a way to break the poverty cycle and more importantly the prison cycle.

[MattBaggins]

157. No one is doing any such thing

People are rightfully questioning a blatant VNR and asking for proof.

Again Pisces, this is very simple; how many kids are they sending to college and what are those colleges? Do the numbers justify re-segregating our schools at tax payer expense?

This is very simple; you are still claiming how this school is a stellar example of education. Can you please provide just one or two hard numbers to back up that claim?

[Pisces]

160. No one, myself included is advocating for separation of sexes in our public schooling. I have stated

on this board that this is a good example for this particular situation. The graduation stats and prison stats for urban black youth is appalling. I am applauding this school for success where there is
very little to find.

This school says that for the 2nd year in a row all of the graduating seniors 100 + are going to college. Did they say Harvard, no they didn't. But college anywhere is better than straight to prison.
100 % graduating rate is better than 46%.

Do I believe this should be the model for all schools, no i do not.

[MattBaggins]

161. They make a claim that isn't backed up

What exactly was 100% of the graduating class? How many students graduated?

100 out of 100
50 out of a 100
1 out of a 100

That is my problem with it. I want the real answers so if they truly had such success it can be replicated. There is a huge push to defund public schools and demonize teachers. All sorts of fudged numbers are being used to that end and this certainly seems like one of them.

Out rages claims deserve scrutiny even when they come from the charter movement.

[Gormy Cuss]

103. The article also does not describe the application process

and there are many ways an application process can be rigged to promote creaming. If that's done the fact that admission is by general lottery is irrelevant.

[XemaSab]

21. I bet they didn't educate any conjoined twins either

:P

[MineralMan]

26. Having investigated, I believe this school is an excellent example of

how charter schools CAN accomplish a great deal. Simply condemning ALL charter schools is a very serious error. All schools can learn from the experience of this school.

[MattBaggins]

132. May I ask how you investigated?

I checked up on the actual test results for this school and could only conclude that the claim they make is so disingenuous, that one could even call it a damn lie.

[TBF]

74. And then there are all the children they 'reject" before they even start ... nt

[KittyWampus]

86. kids in poverty ARE SPECIAL NEEDS

[erodriguez]

89. What is the student attrition rate?

Lots of charters fluff their stats by discounting the large amounts of students who get sent back to the public schools.

[FreakinDJ]

2. Hand picked no doubt

[Pisces]

6. Did you read the article?? No one is handpicked. These are not top students. I am not suggesting

charter school over public is the answer. I am saying this is what is needed in these communities to help break the poverty cycle. I doesn't make sense to tear down a model that is designed specifically
to help urban youth. In this case urban males.

This is not a charter vs. public argument. This is a prison vs. college argument.

[FreakinDJ]

10. "When you are accepted," = Hand Picked

I'm sorry I'm not trying to dump on Teachers nor this school.

However in no way can you tell me 100% of 15 year old Boys even want to go to college

[Brickbat]

12. According to wikipedia, it's done by lottery. Of course, you have to get to ninth grade first.

[Bluenorthwest]

47. Freshmen by lottery. Other grades are by an application process

which their website does not divulge, but is sure is not a lottery. Three out of four grades at the school have a selection process for admission, what that is, we do not know. But that is how it is.

[Brickbat]

51. Ah! Thanks for the clarification.

[Pisces]

13. hand picked implies taking the top students, this is not the case.

[ClassWarrior]

59. For the freshmen, at least.

:eyes:

NGU.

[lumberjack_jeff]

14. That's not what the article says.

Nowhere does it imply that the students are handpicked.

Whether or not the students want to go to college isn't the point. The point is that they have the academic credentials to go if they so choose.

[MattBaggins]

111. The results of the test scores would not indicate they have the academic credentials

[WatsonT]

115. I wish I could hand pick winning lotto numbers

that would be a good career.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. " About 60 percent of teachers at Urban Prep are, like their students, black men." n/t

[joshcryer]

167. Says it all.

[Brickbat]

5. If every public-school student had a mentor assigned to them, whom they could call 24 hours day, I'm

sure we'd see the same results.

[Maine-ah]

7. that's called parents.

unfortunately many parents are working more than one job, or just don't have the skills. For those kids, I can see assigning some kind of a mentor, even perhaps and outstanding member of the student body. But parents really need to start stepping up and raising their kids and not expect the public school system to do it for them.

[Gormy Cuss]

108. But there will always be students who don't have parents or guardians who can "step up."

Parents who are illiterate or unable to speak or read English, parents who are active substance abusers, parents who are incarcerated, and of course a few parents who are just plain self-centered assholes.

In all of those cases mentoring programs can be academic lifesavers for children -- and school-based mentoring is the most effective way to attach mentoring services to the broadest array of at-risk youth.

[Pisces]

9. Yes we would, however, most children have parents who can help them. These kids for the most part do

not. Are we interested in breaking the poverty cycle or tearing down the model that is accomplishing great things??? Why does this bother people so much??? If these young men need more than
most it is because they have less than most. If this takes 50% of the graduating class out of poverty shouldn't we be cheering instead of attacking????

This model is not going to be implemented in all public schools, or even every state. We should all applaud this success and hope for the future success of these college bound students.

[NotThisTime]

15. I for one applaud the school model and students. Statistics for urban black youth are grim, I hope

for the best for these students.

[Pisces]

19. Me too. We all should.

[sufrommich]

22. Me too, anything that makes progress with inner city

young people should be applauded.

[ClassWarrior]

27. How about anything that makes progress with a handful of inner city young people, at the expense...

...of hundreds of others?

Should we applaud that?

NGU.

[blondeatlast]

28. +1. I hadn't considered that. nt

[sufrommich]

30. How was this at the expense of hundreds of others? nt

[ClassWarrior]

32. Unless they only hire administrators who can pull money out of their asses...

...the cash for pricey little boondoggles like this come directly from the funds that would otherwise be invested in our public schools.

But I didn't need to tell you that, did I?

NGU.

[sufrommich]

44. We should never experiment with what works in education,

it upsets the apple cart. There is a lot to be learned about what is needed to improve the lot of inner city youth,it won't be learned by attempting to shoot down anything that works. Do you think the parents of these students agree with your assessment?

[ClassWarrior]

50. Ahhh. So you want to "experiment" with the futures of our young people? Are you fine with it...

...because we're "experimenting" with the futures of central city youth first?

How about just fully funding public schools? No need to experiment there. It works. We've seen it work, throughout the first four-fifths of the 20th Century.

NGU.

[sufrommich]

55. Yes,inner city public schools work so well that there's a

stampede by parents to get their kids into these charters.

[ClassWarrior]

60. Yeah, charter backers have been slowly impoverishing them for decades...

...starting with Ronnie Raygun's gang, if I'm not mistaken. So are you surprised that they don't work very well? So is the answer to impoverish them even more?

:eyes:

NGU.

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. 47% of black males in Illinois will graduate.

63% of black 4th grade boys in Illinois read "below basic" grade level.

Yes, it's time for some experimentation.

The problem exists for all boys, but black males illustrate the leading edge of the problem.

[ClassWarrior]

67. No, it's time to fully fund public schools again.

NGU.

[lumberjack_jeff]

80. Give me a break.

My 5th, 6th and 7th grade years ('73, '74 and '75) all started in October because of failed levies and teachers strikes. My 7th grade year was conducted in shifts, 7th graders from 6:00 to noon, and 8th graders from noon to 6:00 pm.

"fully funded education" is a myth that has never existed.

[ClassWarrior]

85. You're probably right. "Fully funded education" is a myth that has never existed.

They used to be better, but then Raygun came along and institutionalized cuts.

And you're surprised that they're failing??

Why don't we try what works, instead of "experimenting" with the futures of children?

NGU.

[KittyWampus]

92. you could fully fund public schools and unless the PARENTS are present and demanding work from their

kids and enforcing discipline- it still won't work.

[ClassWarrior]

95. So your answer is to further deprive hundreds of students in that situation, sealing their doom...

...just to help a handful out of it?

NGU.

[lumberjack_jeff]

100. Re read the OP.

It worked for these students, family dysfunction notwithstanding.

[ClassWarrior]

73. Who's shooting down "what works?" Fully funding public schools worked damn well before Ron Raygun...

...came along.

NGU.

[CreekDog]

102. girls?

:shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

104. They're doing comparatively okay. n/t

[CreekDog]

125. 100% of them at a charter school are going to college?

you certainly must have a lot of information to make such a statement. where did you find that?

[lumberjack_jeff]

140. What statement is that? The one you just made?

Seriously, is strawman your default setting?

Girls are doing comparatively well in school.

http://www.newsweek.com/2008/09/07/struggling-school-age-boys.html
http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_schools_boys.html
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/06/18/BOYBRAIN.TMP

[CreekDog]

148. we're talking about this all boys school

and whether girls in that community have the opportunity that they have in this school (which is being said to have sent 100% of its graduates to college).

are girls in that same area afforded the same option and same outcome as the boys?

obviously you don't know. you cited statistics nationwide, however this is a specific case and is being argued, has a better outcome than other schools in the area.

are girls offered the same benefit or not?

the answer is you don't know.

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. Then what's different about the teachers at this school? n/t

[msanthrope]

38. They care. n/t

[MattBaggins]

75. Or data does not support the claim of this school and something fishy is going on

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. From a previous article.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/28/urban-prep-100-percent-of_n_627429.html

At Urban Prep, every student has at least one mentor – maybe a coach or a teacher. About 60 percent of teachers at the Englewood campus (Urban Prep has another school and plans to open a third this fall) are black men. They serve as confidantes and role models to students, many of whom have no fathers in their lives.

All staff members have school-assigned cell phones so students (and parents) can phone day or night. And they do.

Just ask Corey Stewart, a 24-year-old history teacher.

Students will call and say, "'I'm stranded and I don't have a way from downtown to get home,'" Stewart says. "'Can you come pick me up?' Absolutely, I'm on my way. Or 'Mr. Stewart, I'm afraid that I might get jumped on after school today. Is it possible you can take me home?' Of course."

Stewart says he doesn't worry about becoming too friendly with his students and won't hesitate to fail someone who's not measuring up.

[ClassWarrior]

39. I don't know ANY teacher who wouldn't welcome those kinds of requests.

I take that back. I don't know any PUBLIC SCHOOL teacher who wouldn't. Hey, they're in this game because they love kids.

On the other hand, I know plenty of nasty, petty little people working in private schools who don't have the time of day for most of their students after the bell rings.

NGU.

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. I have no experience with private schools.

My experience is strictly isolated to public schools. I don't know a single teacher who would agree to take a cellphone that makes them on call 24 x 7. And I don't know of any teachers union that would permit it.

[ClassWarrior]

46. I didn't say anything about cell phones. Pay attention, son.

I said no public teacher I know would refuse requests like these from their students. And many of them give their personal cell numbers to their students.

NGU.

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. Yes you did.

"I don't know ANY teacher who wouldn't welcome those kinds of requests."

It isn't the students of the prep school who are issuing the cellphones.

[ClassWarrior]

57. Where did I use the words "cell phone?"

NGU.

[lumberjack_jeff]

66. My bad. I thought you were disagreeing with me.

No public school teacher would agree to a request to be on call 24 x 7. Glad to hear we're in agreement.

You seem to be saying that the teachers in your acquaintance would be willing, provided no one asks.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClassWarrior]

142. Since you're apparently having a hard time understanding, let me put it simply.

All the public school teachers who I know answer calls from students and parents 24/7 on a regular basis, and they don't need to be "assigned" cell phones or "ordered" to answer them. They offer their own personal phone numbers to families, simply because they care.

NGU.

[WatsonT]

141. Yeah all those private school teachers

they don't care about the kids, they're just in it for the fabulous wealth:

Greedy buggers.

And I bet their benefits are much better than public school teachers too.

And I can think of one very good reason not to 'make yourself available' to students outside of class: lawsuits stemming from accusations of sexual abuse.

[KittyWampus]

90. they are called parents. Parents need to step up and #1. be present #2 be disciplinarians

And Charters can, when founded locally by groups of parents, offer a good learning environment for kids.

The key is, parents are involved.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

23. Indirect selection

What these boys have going for them is a supportive family that *really* wants them to succeed.

That's the exception, not the norm, so the kids that are applying are therefore exceptional, and that's reflected in their graduation rates.


EDIT: Article doesn't mention drop outs/expulsions. 100% of the seniors graduated.

[Pisces]

35. Supportive family?? Most of these boys do not have fathers??? Single working moms is the exception??

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

93. "Families interested in freshman admissions..."

Families interested in freshman admissions are strongly encouraged to attend one of our upcoming Information Sessions in order to receive a lottery application.

http://www.urbanprep.org/admissions/


Parents going out of their way to improve the education opportunities of their children. My buddy is a CPS teacher and he can tell you who will succeed and who will fail based on their parental involvement. In his class, more than 50% of his students fail.

Like I said, that's hardly the norm.

[ClassWarrior]

25. So how many hundreds of kids get sub-par schools so this handful can be super served?

NGU.

[Pisces]

31. The same amount that was always getting subpar education. Now, however, we have a school doing

something to help the situation.

[ClassWarrior]

33. Ahhh, so rather than solving the problem, you're fine with making it worse?

:eyes:

NGU.

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. Explain, specifically, how these young men getting into college is making the situation worse. n/t

[ClassWarrior]

43. First you explain, specifically, how a handful of young men getting into college because...

...some boondoggle school is sucking funds away from the already-impoverished public schools serving hundreds of other deserving students is making the situation better.

NGU.

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. Because it raises the number of the city's students qualified for college.

It also undermines the perpetual excuses.

That was easy, but I asked first.

[ClassWarrior]

53. Ahhh, it's okay if the education of hundreds, or even thousands, of kids deteriorates...

...as long as a handful of kids qualify for college? :crazy:

NGU.

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. You haven't demonstrated that it deteriorates for even one. n/t

[ClassWarrior]

58. Run out of arguments?

:rofl:

NGU.

[lumberjack_jeff]

69. When you get done laughing, you can answer the question.

Then I can laugh.

Specifically, how does preparing these kids for college harm other students in the Chicago public schools?

[ClassWarrior]

71. Feigning confusion. The number one activity at DU these days.

See post #32.

NGU.

[Pisces]

48. Doing the same thing for these kids is not solving any problems. Seems like this school is helping.

It is going to take more than usual remedies to fix this abysmal situation. That calls for unorthodox methods that would not fit the one size for all bill.

I think many want to tear down the model because they feel threatened. This is not a threat to pubic schools, it is helping in areas where most turn a blind eye. People don't care about urban, black yourth. These people want to give back to their community and have found a way to do it. Why we are not cheering en masse is still a mystery to me. Some on this board would rather close this school and allow these students to be swallowed up rather than succeed because it is a charter. How insane.

[ClassWarrior]

62. Who said do the same thing? You can always tell when someone has no argument because they...

...start putting words in their opponents mouths. I said we need to fully fund our public schools.

PEOPLE DON'T CARE ABOUT URBAN, BLACK YOUTH?? Spend JUST ONE DAY in any central city public school in my district, and you'll be eating those words with ketchup.

NGU.

[MattBaggins]

94. Is this school helping? Why doesn't the data about their school support their claims?

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

34. Pisces! Read the admission policy on the school's website...

Urban Prep Academies operates non-selective enrollment high schools that admit freshmen students via lottery.

Transfer Applications for prospective 10th, 11th, and 12th grade students are being accepted at Urban Prep Charter Academy for Young Men

http://www.urbanprep.org/admissions/


Sounds like they've found a loophole to the criticism that their students are hand picked. Very sneaky. Shame on HuffPost for not doing their due diligence.

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. Here's an example of that "loophole" in action.

Krishaun didn't believe.

When he discovered what he'd signed up for, he wanted out immediately.

No girls? School until 4:30 p.m.? A jacket and tie? You've got to be kidding. But his mother urged him to hang in. So did an aunt who threatened to stop buying him clothes and giving him spending money.

So he stayed, and raised hell.

He fought, he cursed the teachers, he got suspended. He wanted to get kicked out.

"I went to the principal and said, 'I don't want to be here. Just send me home,'" he recalls. "I didn't like the discipline. I didn't like the surroundings. I didn't like the uniform. I didn't like anything.'

Krishaun started sophomore year on probation. He was failing some classes and straddling two worlds: A student at Urban Prep. And a kid clinging to street life who'd tuck a white T-shirt into his bag – part of the uniform of the gangbangers – so he could hang out with them.

After fighting with another student sophomore year, Krishaun transferred to a Chicago public school. But he couldn't stop his downhill slide, earning lots of F's and D's.

Then came a brutal wake-up call. A close friend was beaten to death.

Krishaun started seeing Urban Prep in a new light. He pleaded to return.

"I knew I was going down the wrong path," he says. "I had to graduate or my life was going to be nothing. ... I'd seen the streets were not going to get me anywhere."

He lobbied Evan Lewis, the recruiter who'd visited his elementary school and had become a mentor.

"He didn't take no or maybe for an answer," Lewis says.

Krishaun was readmitted. He buckled down, and during his junior year was honored five times with a "student of the week" designation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/28/urban-prep-100-percent-of_n_627429.html

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

63. Good story. Highly motivated kid. Good for him.

[MattBaggins]

119. Why will they only distribute the aplications at the open houses?

Why would they not be online for public viewing so people could see if they have "prerequisites" for the application?

[RainDog]

40. It doesn't have to be a charter to achieve these results

that's the issue.

if all public schools had one-on-one mentors for at-risk kids - if people were willing to pay to create this learning environment - you would see these same results.

being a charter school has nothing to do with it, other than trying to pretend that public schools could not also have such results with enough money to pull kids out of the cycle of poverty.

it's like saying "charter school" becomes a magic word.

but the "magic" is the involvement of people in the school, the money to help the students and the motivation to create a change in people's lives.

if those kids' parents could also have one-on-one mentors to break the cycle of poverty, I bet you'd see astonishing success for them, as well.

[blondeatlast]

83. Exactly. Charter schools are private schools that I pay for--while I send

my son to a public school (and a fine one, at that).

[Telly Savalas]

165. And public schools are what I pay for while I send my child to a charter

So we're even.

[Dappleganger]

54. Charter=private school funded by stolen public school's money.

And you think this is exciting? You should be appalled!

[white_wolf]

61. I'm glad that those kids did well, I really am

but I'd much prefer us to improve our public education system so that everyone has the same chance to go to College or get a good job. I don't like the fact that we have let public schools fall to such a level that charter schools are needed. Hell if you ask me we should spend the money needed to make all public schools as good as top of the line private school and I feel the same way about Colleges. I think state university's should be just as good as the Ivy League. Yes I know this probably impossible, but I can dream right?

[Pisces]

72. Unfortunately while you dream, kids fail and some die. We need real life solutions

for kids now. I don't see this as an either or situation. We can do both. Work on public schools and support these innovative charter schools that are working for youth now. I do not advocate for charter over public. This should be a many pronged approach.

We should all be on the same side, the side of the children.

[ClassWarrior]

76. Okay, so where are you going to get the money for the charters then, if you think we can do both?

NGU.

[Pisces]

81. Many people and companies are donating to the charter schools. There is money for both, yet people

keep voting for education cuts. We should be doing everything and anything to help educate our youth.

[ClassWarrior]

82. So you'd be happy to leave the public money to public schools and finance charters with...

...personal and corporate money? I'd be fine with that.

NGU.

[blondeatlast]

84. Good, them cut those charters off of public funding and I'm swell with 'em. nt

[blondeatlast]

91. What are you doing to support fully-funded, entirely public education?

As long as charters continue to funnel public money away from public schools, as they do in my state, I'm hell-bent anti-charter.

[TBF]

77. It can't be a many-pronged approach when all the money is going for war.

Unfortunately I don't see Mr. Obama putting any thought at all into the future - unless you're talking about military recruiting events.

[Spike89]

79. The "different" effect

It is all but impossible, and certainly unethical to do true scientific research on various forms of education. The problem isn't trying new programs and approaches, it is selecting the subjects and maintaining a true control. Despite the limits, there is a ton of research being done. One thing is almost universally constant--whatever is tried works.
The key is that when you put together an innovative, or experimental system, it is impossible to avoid self-selection. In other words, the people that dreamed it up, the people that apply for the teaching jobs within that environment, the students/parents that agree to participate, basically everyone involved feels like they are special, part of a solution. Motivation alone accounts for more than anything else in education.
What happens is that almost every "school reform" of this type is successful, but almost none of them are replicable or sustainable. What makes a student feel special in a charter school (say, wearing a tie to class) isn't effective if every school has every student wear a tie. Obviously the tie doesn't make students smarter, it is the perception among the tie-wearers that they are different/elite.

Regarding the selection process, the obvious point that I haven't seen anyone directly address is that the lottery is NOT random. Students (and/or parents) must choose to enter the lottery. Only kids or families that want something different are likely to apply, a serious skewing of the sample. Ignoring such an important statisitic as drop-out/expulsion rates is another troubling piece of this story--I don't get the information to really tell if the 100% college stat means anything at all--if only 50% of incoming freshmen graduate, then it isn't nearly as impressive that the survivors are college bound.
However, the biggest thing to keep in mind is

[blondeatlast]

87. Very well said, and a great point about the selection process. nt

[KittyWampus]

97. you think knocking "scientific" experimentation because its unethical is well said?

So double blind studies in medical science are also unethical? Literally the same argument.

[ClassWarrior]

99. New Meme: "Magic Wand Educators"

Some people don't like the fact that it's not easy to do important things like educating an entire population of children. So they want to "experiment" with our children's futures in a search for a glittering wand that will magically turn education cheap and easy.

NGU.

[Spike89]

116. Great phrase!

The meme is established--and it is hard to refute because as I mentioned in an earlier post, virtually anything different you do will be effective whether it is helpful or not.

[blondeatlast]

118. Excellent. nt

[KittyWampus]

156. you seem to be the one who thinks Money is the magic wand.

[Spike89]

113. Not knocking it at all

I'm a huge proponent of scientific study. Ironically, your example of double-blind medical tests are routinely stopped for ethical reasons when results show a) a high likelihood that the "treatment" is detrimental or b) the treatment is so effective that it becomes obvious that denying the control group its benefits is unethical.

Because of the ethical issues, it can be very, very difficult, even impossible to run double-blind clinical trials on human subjects when the stakes are the highest. Those same ethics make it difficult to force students into a control group (you basically destroy the experiment if you allow self-selection, especially because much of what you're hoping to measure is motivation).

So, you have twin children, the school randomly places one in an experimental classroom and leaves the other in "regular" classes. At the end of the year, one of your twins is doing really well, the other is struggling. You don't think there is an ethical issue? You don't think the public schools are going to sued?

There certainly are ways to minimize the problems, and bright researchers find ways to isolate and adjust for many variables. Of course, some "experiments" are more easily and ethically done.

However, I stand fully behind the fact that there are ethical challenges involved in experimenting on children, even while acknowleging that we need scientific study of how to best educate our youth.

[Pisces]

129. Feeling special and elite should only be for white privilege? The kids aren't always motivated

to stay in this school. The parents had some motivation because they did put in applications. You are correct in your assessment that there is hidden motivation on the part of some to see this model succeed. Regardless of motivation the facts remain that it is working for most of the kids in the school. This should be applauded.

Making the students feel special and different is a tried and true method used to get better performance from groups of people ie. sales teams. This does not negate the fact that it is succeeding in
an area where many are failing. Look at the stats of inner city black males and weep. If this school is successful in saving some of these kids that would otherwise end up a statistic then I say
more power to them. They are also producing future kids that will be part of the solution rather than the problem. Exponenetially helping to end the poverty cycle.

Why we would argue with success or hope for it's failure when that means that children will suffer is not logical.

[Scurrilous]

110. K & R

:thumbsup:

[WatsonT]

114. Excellent news

I'm glad for these kids. Too bad so many are furious at this because A) it works and B) it wasn't the plan they prefered.

/how dare you teach kids successfully if you aren't following my curriculum? Better a million kids graduate equally unable to read than a few make it to college while others don't.

[MattBaggins]

117. The school claims that 100% of the kids went to college

yet only 11% of the 2010 11th grade class met the standards for math.

Perhaps this story is bogus?

[WatsonT]

127. Perhaps

or it could mean the standards to get in to college these days are pretty low.

Either way it seems to be an improvement.

[Starry Messenger]

171. Yes, it is.

Here is the rebuttal from last year's infomercial about this school: http://socialistworker.org/2010/07/15/charter-cooks-the-books

Charter school cooks the books

A Chicago charter school sent 100 percent of its graduating seniors to college--by not counting the 43 percent who didn't go to college, explains Rachel Cohen.

July 15, 2010

{div class="excerpt"]


URBAN COLLEGE Prep Charter Academy--the nation's first all-boys charter school--has found an ingenious new way to boost its stats: cheating.

A Chicago Sun-Times article last week heralded the success of the school's 100 percent college-bound rate for its first class of graduating seniors. If it were true, the achievement would have been a very impressive feat.

The school was established in 2006 in the notoriously neglected neighborhood of Englewood on Chicago's South Side. The first year's inbound freshman class of 166 students, drawn from the 98 percent African American neighborhood, was required to wear uniforms of suits and ties and pushed to raise test scores fast.

The school reported in its very first year that it had broken its fundraising goals, attracting plenty of corporate funding support in addition to its allotment from the Chicago Public Schools system.

Yet according to the Interactive Illinois Report Card, the school failed to meet Adequate Yearly Progress standards in 2009, with only 15 percent of students meeting or exceeding grade level proficiency in all areas of standardized testing, well below the Chicago district's 62 percent.

[KamaAina]

120. The key words: "of graduating class".

How many students were screened out of, or steered away from, the school because they weren't performing, or, as mentioned above, because they had disabilities?

Public schools have a mandate to educate ALL children. They do not have the luxury of cherry-picking like charters do.

[lumberjack_jeff]

121. Some introspection is in order, DU'ers.

A story about a successful inner city school gets unrecced.

Education is supposed to be about the students. A school that can produce successful ones merits praise and possibly emulation.

[MattBaggins]

124. This is about exposing a bogus "infomercial VNR" disguised as news

Please examine the data for this schools test results and then explain to me why I am supposed to be all gung ho to fire public school teachers and hand over my money to Gates?

"graduating class" went to college... How many is that then? What do they mean by college? If that means they got a few kids to take evening courses at a community college is that deceptive? It would still be a great thing for the kids but might be a bit disingenuous for the claims they are trying to make.

They only had 11% of the 2010 11th grade meet math standards which was actually lower then the district they are in and was a drop from the prior year. How many graduated and went to college then?

[WatsonT]

128. Apparently education is mostly about politics

educating the students takes a backseat to that.

[MattBaggins]

131. Or this is a bogus VNR to prop up a school

Can you explain to me why the data isn't even remotely close to what the school would like us to believe?

[WatsonT]

135. Which data are you going off when you say that?

I'm not adverse to believing that this is a fraud. It just seems like many people have started with that assumption and are working backwards.

Because initially it seems like a promising and hopeful demonstration.

[MattBaggins]

136. There are lots of sites out there for parents that rate schools

they will almost always link to public test results for any school they have data on.

this is one of them:
http://www.greatschools.org/modperl/achievement/il/7574#psae_subgroup

[WatsonT]

139. For a valid comparison

I would need to see the stats for the schools they otherwise would have gone to.

According to that site those at or above expectations =25%.

Which if the other schools were around 4% (a number quoted from the article) that is a very substantial improvement in a short period of time.

[MattBaggins]

144. I have to go and do not have the time to google

but quite a few sites will compare the neighboring schools, the district, the state and national, or combinations there of. Google the school name + reviews and you will find that info.

[KamaAina]

122. This is in Chicago. The City Colleges of Chicago have open enrollment.

Thus, anyone who fills out an application is admitted.

[blondeatlast]

123. Well, it's still a commendable statistic. But statistics never tell the whole story--thanks

for a necessary clarification.

:thumbsup:

[MattBaggins]

126. This school does not have an open enrollment

[riderinthestorm]

162. That's not what she's saying. In Chicago, just filling out an app for a city college means admission

is guaranteed. The charter high school in question may just simply have every single student fill out an application and voila! They have their 100% magical number to wave around in "defense" of charter schools.

[white_wolf]

137. How about this

we cut back on military spending and raise taxes on the very wealthy and spend some of that money and fixing our schools and paying our teachers a decent livable wage so that everyone can get a good education and not just those lucky enough to win some lottery or have parents who can afford to send them to private schools?

[ClassWarrior]

143. Bingo!!

NGU.

[blondeatlast]

150. +1. nt

[WinkyDink]

145. It still remains to ask: Why are the funds and support not being given to public schools?

[white_wolf]

149. Because people can't get rich off those?

Just a theory.

[Pisces]

154. Who is getting rich??? How are they getting rich??? Helping underprivileged kids is not a way to

wealthy, if it were someone would have been helping these kids a long time ago.

[Jakes Progress]

152. So? Logic isn't one of your strengths, is it?

Good for those brain washed little boys. Good for the special group that does this.

But how does that prove anything? I think george bush once read a book. Does that make him a scholar. I know one decent human that cares about people who is a republican. Does that mean that all republicans are humanitarians.

If we are going to use simplistic logic, then let's go with the idea that the exception proves the rule. Rather than say that because this charter did a good thing, the charter movement is wonderful, we should say that the rule is that charters suck and this exception proves the rule.

[Pisces]

153. Logic dictates that is works for this environment with these specific circumstances. Do charters

like this work for every single situation, NO. I am not advocating we open up 5000 charters. I am saying we need to applaud this school and what it is doing for Chicago.

People are stuck on making this an us vs. them argument. It is not. It is about what works to save our black young men from prison vs college. Your a + b = c theorem does not work in this argument, because we are talking about people which is a huge variable. Knocking down a project simply because it doesn't fit your ideological purity test is crazy and adding to the problem rather than the
solution.

[Jakes Progress]

155. Celebrating an anomaly simply because it fits your ideology

is crazy.

If this one charter does something good (more about that later) it doesn't mean that charters are a good thing. I didn't apply the a+b=c game. You did. And again, you seemed to have skipped logic and statistics in your studies. Sociological studies apple logic and system analysis to human beings all the time. Medicine, law enforcement, the military, business, and education all deal with this form of logic. Are you saying that logic shouldn't be used when discussing the benefits or problems with a program or situation because humans are involved?

Now then read my post. I said good for the little school. I didn't knock it down. i do reject the concept of charters for two main reasons. First is that they are a distraction. A headline like this one will be used over and over to club public schools and promote corporatizing education. The corporate backers and flacks for privatization are already using this example, counting on people not understanding logic or reasoning. The second is that the overwhelming majority only drain money and people from the public system. I know because I have been involved in charters in the public system. Years ago, I was simplistic enough to think that the charter movement might have some good effect. Over a decade of experience has shown that not to be the case, has shown that to never be the case in the seventy or so cases that I witnessed.

Now, as for this school. Read more about it than the pr blurbs that are showing up in the MSM. I know a little more about it that most. I know people involved. I can just say that I wouldn't want a child that I loved to be a part of it. There are better ways to keep children from the streets, as you say. Try finding out what the criteria for admission and continuation are. Don't just use the pr from the school. Try finding out how many of the children finish more than one year of college. I would love it if these children all got degrees, but my experience with these kinds of phenomenons is that the majority won't make it, that few will.

It is amazing how people want to tell dedicated and experienced educators that they are selfish and don't know what they are talking about. Whatever profession or field you are in, I would wager that you know more about it than people just randomly selected off the street. Can just anyone do your job? Is your experience, training, and dedication just a joke? Suppose you are an accountant with 30 years of experience and the acclaim of your field. I come along and tell you that I read about a free downloaded program that can do the job better. I know so because it said so on the internets. That is what is happening here. You want to ascribe the DU teachers who are telling you that the charter movement is a scam as hating children or being selfish. Try wrapping you mind around the fact that we are dedicated to learning, passionate about children, knowledgeable of the issues, and that we just know better than what you get by clicking on an internets link.

[Pisces]

158. I am not trying to advocate for charters. I am certainly not discounting your experience.

I don't doubt that many of these children do not get a full 4 yr degree. There background alone would lead to this conclusion as well as leaving an environment that gives you tutors and mentors 24/7
to one that is on your own. All any of us on this board are saying is that the public school system is letting down this segment of the population more than the rest. Unorthodox methods need to be
employed to help the situation.

I am not thinking that this model should be employed everywhere. I am sure as a 30 yr educator you know the limitations that public schools have in how to implement new teaching criteria. Reaching these children is difficult in the best of situations, now try low funded schools with teachers that don't want to be there anymore than the students want to be there. I don't think there are easy solutions. When a different solution is presented and is helping the intended community should we just throw it aside because it doesn't fit the public school model.

I understand that funding is paramount to schools and that everyone is fighting for the same dollars. This always comes back to money. I know you can not believe that the people who started this
project were in it for just the money. These people care and have dedicated themselves to helping these kids succeed. Are they so mislead that you believe they are harming these kids instead of
helping?

I want to reiterate that I am not advocating for more charters. I am applauding a success where there is very little to applaud.

[riderinthestorm]

168. How do you know they are helping the kids? The stats don't seem too promising.

I'm looking at Matt Baggins' research and so few are at reading level in 11th grade, it's pretty deliberately misleading.

And as I said upthread, this is Chicago. You simply have to fill out an application to a city college and you are accepted. If this charter has gone ahead and simply had 100% of it's students fill out the application, they can magically say that 100% of their students were accepted to college.

Are they all going to college? We don't know. Can they make it through even one remedial class in college? We don't know.

Those who are saying "Whoa, wait a minute" about this charter schools claims are simply asking you to clarify whether the stats that this charter school are providing are really truthful.

Because honestly, there is an enormous effort being made nationally to de-fund public schools, de-legitimize teachers, break teachers unions and more. Stories like this one need special scrutiny because they are held up as examples and frankly, I'm suspicious.

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Throd]

169. This is utterly tragic and horrible news!