Bill Gates: Anti-Vaccine People “Kill Children”

[cleanhippie]

One of the upsides of being the richest man in the world and one of history’s biggest philanthropists is that you get to say exactly what you think about issues. In this case, Gates is discussing Andrew Wakefield and the entire anti-vaccine scam:


http://www.oliverwillis.com/2011/02/04/bill-gates-anti-vaccine-people-kill-children/


-----------------------------

I couldn't agree more.

[cleanhippie]

1. .

[msanthrope]

2. He's right. n/t

[cleanhippie]

4. He couldn't be MORE right if he tried.

[goddess40]

3. These Richie Riches have too much power

Gates is also setting the stage for voucher schools. He is anti-teacher and anti-union. Where is his medical and educational background that backs up his proclamations? I guess if you are very rich the world listens to you because of the money.

[cleanhippie]

5. So I take it you disagree with his premise.

And your basis for that disagreement is because you feel he lacks the medical background to make such a premise, right?

Do the thousands of researchers and doctors that DO have a medical background and support that premise hold any weight with you?

Why do you disagree with the premise?

[Hannah Bell]

23. he didn't state a premise, but a conclusion which is based on his unspoken premises.

bill gates' 3rd-world vaccine trials kill children too.

so does giving vaccinations to unnourished children.

so does his foundation's investments in polluting industries & his campaign to marketize african agriculture, which dispossesses africans.

fuck gates.

[Raine]

29. Totally agree. nt

[cleanhippie]

31. Gates aside, do you DISAGREE that "anti-vaccine people kill children"

Lets not make Gates the issue, but the topic he was talking about. Do you disagree, then? If so, why?

[Hannah Bell]

47. please explain to me the rationale for that conclusion.

and as gates is the one who issued the statement, gates is indeed the issue.

because i hadn't heard where gates had been elected to any office, or had any expertise in medicine or science whatsoever.

[cleanhippie]

62. You are making Gates the issue when the issue is whether or not "anti-vaccine" people kill children

either directly or indirectly through their words and actions. THATS the issue. Dying children due to negligence and willful ignorance is the issue. NOT Bill Gates.

Yeah, I get it, you think Bill Gates is an asshole, and you may be right, but does that make what he said untrue? No.

So again, do "anti-vaccine" people kill children either directly or indirectly through their words and actions? Thats the issue, thats the question. Its a simple yes or no. What say you?

[Hannah Bell]

65. no, the issue is also bill gates. & no, to my knowledge "anti-vaccine people"

have killed no one either directly or indirectly.

please submit the evidence if you believe otherwise.

"anti-vaccine people" are a very small proportion of the population.

the rate of immunization for childhood vaccines is at its highest-ever levels in the population.


CDC is also the source of this historic data (current to Q2 2007).

% = percent of vaccination-age children vaccinated with MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) in that year.
() = the number of cases of measles that year.


1967: 60% (62,705)

1970: 58.4% (47,351)

1975: 65.5% (24,374)

1980: 66.6% (13,506)

1985: 61.2% (2,822)

1991: 82% (9,643)

1992: 82.5% (2,237)

1993: 84.1% (312)

1994: 89% (963)

1995: 87.6% (309)

1996: 90.7% (508)

1997: 90.5% (138)

1998: 92% (100)

1999: 91.5% (100)

2000: 90.5% (86)

2001: 91.4% (116)

2002: 91.6% (44)

2003: 93% (56)

2004: 93% (37)

2005: 91.5% (66)

2006: 92.4% (55)

2007: (92.4% to Q2 07) (30) (42 in revision)

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/...
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/...
http://www2a.cdc.gov/nip/coverage/nis/nis_...



As you can see for yourself, to Q2 2007, vaccination rates have risen steadily, & the period 2003-2007 had the highest coverage of any 5-year period on record.

and the lowest number of people affected by outbreaks.

and if you investigate some of the outbreaks, they were in populations that HAD BEEN VACCINATED.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Hannah%20Bell/37


bill gates, on the other hand, is probably indirectly responsible for some children's illnesses & deaths.

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-gatesx07jan07,0,2533850.story


but pray continue your outrage about something that doesn't exist.

[cleanhippie]

78. Folks, we have willful ignorance at work right here.

Wow, Hanna, your willful ignorance is astounding. You DO know that pertussis, a disease thought to be eradicated, has had a resurgence in the last 10 years after the autism/vaccine controversy fraud and many infants have died as a result. Measles kill kids even though there is a safe, readily available vaccine.

http://rainbowofchaos.wordpress.com/2009/10/23/the-dangers-of-not-vaccinating-your-child/

http://hubpages.com/hub/8-INFANT-DEATHS-from-PERTUSSIS-STATE-WIDE-WHOOPING-COUGH-EPIDEMIC-in-CALIFORNIA

http://hubpages.com/hub/Herd-Immunity-Why-NOT-Vaccinating-Your-Children-Can-Hurt-Other-Children



But hey, whats a little willful ignorance among friends, right? Even if a few kids die in the meantime.

Despicable, hanna, despicable.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. I just got a booster to whoping cough

in adults it is usually just bothersome. In asthmatics it can be right down deadly.

Thanks willfully ignorant parents.

[SidDithers]

98. +1...nt

Sid

[Hannah Bell]

101. what's despicable is your bullshit. pertussis coverage is 95%. again, at historical highs.

http://www2.cdc.gov/nip/schoolsurv/nationalAvg5Year.asp


this is CDC data; hard fact, as opposed to hyped scare stories.

i've already provided you with cdc data for measles/mumps/rubella coverage.

you don't acknowledge the data from *the* authoritative source, and you think if you shout loudly about my "ignorance" people won't notice the data.

lower immunization rates have nothing to do with recent outbreaks.

REGION: Two-thirds of local pertussis cases were vaccinated, data show
Expert says whopping cough mutating, becoming more infectious

http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/sdcounty/article_1e57b3db-8302-5313-99b3-f15d48b8829f.html

For the past four months, KPBS and the Watchdog Institute have tracked the whooping cough epidemic across California and other affected states. In an effort to better understand who is getting sick, we examined data from San Diego County Health and Human Services agency that contained immunization history for each person diagnosed with pertussis. In September, KPBS reported that almost two-thirds of the people diagnosed with pertussis in San Diego County had been up to date on their immunizations. The figure surprised local health officials.

The institute then requested similar information from the California Department of Public Health. Each local health jurisdiction is responsible for reporting detailed information on probable pertussis cases to the state health department. The department keeps track of the information electronically and submits it to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

In September, we received the state’s data on pertussis cases, and found it was not up to date and was missing information. For example, the immunization history was marked “unknown” for more than 60 percent of the cases. The state’s figures for San Diego County also didn’t match what the county had given us. We asked the state about the discrepancies, and officials responded that if we wanted timely and accurate information, we should ask each county’s health department.

Within days, we began requesting immunization history information from counties that reported high numbers of cases of pertussis. Of the 19 contacted, nine responded with immunization information. Officials from the other counties said they either didn’t have the data, or they cited patient privacy in withholding it.

The institute’s analysis of the data provided showed that in cases where immunization history is known between 44 and 83 percent of the people diagnosed with whooping cough had been vaccinated.

http://www.watchdoginstitute.org/2010/12/17/when-immunity-fails-behind-the-story/

[cleanhippie]

110. You go ahead and keep your head buired in your bullshit nonsense

Hopefully, less and less people will stay ignorant with you and less children will die as a result of your willful ignorance.

[Hannah Bell]

121. you're saying the Centers for Disease Control is publishing bullshit nonsense? my, my.

you have yet to link me to any deaths caused by unvaccinated children.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cleanhippie]

187. delete, dupe

[cleanhippie]

188. Careful, you are making things up again.

Fabricating things is not a becoming quality.

[darkstar3]

118. You, too, could benefit from understanding

the logical fallacy of ad hominem. Whether Gates said it or not is irrelevant. If you want to hear it from a real authority on the subject, you can read the same opinions from Dr. Paul Offit in his book Deadly Choices. The fact is, healthy people who willingly avoid vaccination put others, who cannot be vaccinated for various medical reasons, at risk. Many of the diseases we vaccinate people against can be deadly, and therefore Gates' statement isn't far off the mark.

[Hannah Bell]

124. as i am not the person who first resorted to ad hom, i wonder that you don't chastise the other

poster.

i am saying one very simple thing. childhood vaccination coverage rates are at all-time highs.

i am asking a very simple thing: document the claim that unvaccinated children are killing people in the us.

[darkstar3]

126. Firstly, I did,

and secondly, you have NOT been saying one simple thing. You have repeatedly attacked Gates rather than answer anything he actually said. Forget the messenger, and read the book I mentioned above.

[Hannah Bell]

128. where? i have offered the evidence of US childhood vaccination coverage straight from the CDC.

I have not been able to find any cases where unvaccinated children killed people in the US. i have asked for evidence that this has happened, repeatedly, & no one has offered any. instead, they have repeatedly called me names.

i attack bill gates because he needs to be attacked. I'd warrant I know a great deal more about who he is & what he is actually doing than you do.

i have asked for documentation of the claim he made. none has been offered.

SHOW ME THE DATA.

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[msanthrope]

163. You keep presenting irrelevant stats, claiming they prove something.

You keep posting vaccine coverage rates....but fail to produce disease and mortality rates.

Vaccine coverage rates don't tell us how many kids got sick, and what from.

But, using CDC mortality rates reports, a very helpful man has compiled a list of completely preventable cases of disease and mortality in the US. In just four years, over 75 thousand cases, and over 600 deaths--- In most cases, as the FAQ reports, the index patient was un vaccinated. Read the CDC mortality reports at link.


http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Preventable_Illnesses.html


http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Preventable_Deaths.html


As further proof that your posting of vaccine coverage rates is irrelevant, take a look at this measles outbreak that happened in an area of 95% coverage--note--the index patient was un vaccinated, by choice.



Un vaccinated Children at Center of Measles Outbreak
By Todd Neale, Staff Writer, MedPage Today
Published: March 22, 2010

Children whose parents refuse vaccinations for them provide fertile ground for the spread of vaccine-preventable diseases, an investigation of a 2008 measles outbreak in San Diego demonstrated.

Although the rate of two-dose immunization against measles was 95% in the area, a single case of measles from a 7-year-old child returning from overseas sparked an outbreak that exposed 839 people and sickened 11 other children, according to David Sugerman, MD, MPH, of the CDC's Epidemic Intelligence Service, and colleagues.

None of the 12 children, who ranged in age from 10 months to 9 years, had been vaccinated -- nine because their parents had refused the vaccine and three because they were too young, the researchers reported in the April issue of Pediatrics.

More at link--

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Pediatrics/PreventiveCare/19138

[Hannah Bell]

171. in fact, the first set of stats i posted had case stats. it's not me who

claimed that anti-vaxxers have caused thousands of deaths.

i've asked repeatedly for a citation & so far no one has provided one.

including you.

[msanthrope]

172. What link, Hannah? I see no case stats--just coverage stats.

Where is your backing for your claim that index cases are from vaccinated children?

I provided the link to the CDC mortality reports--are you disputing their numbers?

Have you considered that you have taken a foolish stance, merely because of your dislike of Mr. Gates?

[Hannah Bell]

174. you'd better look a little closer then. here's the link to the first post on MMR vaccination

coverage.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=353538&mesg_id=358370


i think you don't understand what my stance is.

still waiting for the documentation of the thousands of deaths caused by antivaxxers.

and i see no link to cdc in your post.

nor any documentation of thousands of deaths caused by antivaxxers.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=353538&mesg_id=362849

[Maru Kitteh]

117. +1 well said. n/t

[PBS Poll-435]

127. Why isn't it 100%?

And the dips in 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2005?


:shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

185. for starters, because vaccinations are contraindicated for some people/children and because total

vaccination is not necessary to cut off endemic disease -- per cdc & who.

Indigenous measles were declared to have been eliminated in North, Central, and South America; the last endemic case in the region was reported on November 12, 2002, with only Northern Argentina and rural Canada, particularly in the provinces of Ontario, Quebec, and Alberta having minor endemic status.<53>

Outbreaks are still occurring, however, following importations of measles viruses from other world regions. In June 2006, an outbreak in Boston resulted after a resident became infected in India,<54> and in October 2007, a Michigan girl who had been vaccinated contracted the disease in Sweden.<55>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles



there are dips in 1970 & 1985 as well. much bigger dips. the trend line has always been always up. a dip of .5 to 1% for one or two years is a cohort effect, not a trend line.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BOG PERSON]

115. you see, he is a rich white nerd

therefore he must know what's best for us

[PBS Poll-435]

148. Last time I checked, he doesn't have Mumps, Rubella, or Whooping Cough

:shrug:

[maryf]

184. Oh, don't you know

he's an expert on everything, education too!!
Philanthropist?? what a misnomer.

[Rage for Order]

38. Go Bill Gates!

:patriot:

[dirkdigggler]

83. +1000

I would like to see Bill Gates donate some of his money to charities that feed the hungry instead of all these vaccines stuff. Hes now trying to unleash millions of vaccines laced mosquitoes to force vaccinate people in african countries and as an africa, this pisses me off.

Malnutrition is a big reason why african children die of malaria and yet you never hear his address the food issue

[msanthrope]

100. Wow. Most posters wait a few hundred posts before going right to the crazy shit, but

you just jumped right in--

welcome!

[uppityperson]

173. and it is RIP already. 3 posts and we barely got to know him.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Initech]

27. Agreed.

[defendandprotect]

40. Agree -- and there's nothing like everyone backing something we won't know the

results of for generations yet!

For-profit science is too often wrong -- hugely wrong!

[darkstar3]

54. Are you perhaps familiar

with the logical fallacy of ad hominem?

If the statement is correct, it doesn't matter where it comes from. Anti-vaxers are damaging, and in some areas destroying, herd immunity, and therefore Gates isn't far off the mark.

[conspirator]

6. No billy. Your H1B program is the one killing babies

American babies are not being born because their parents are unemployed, while you keep importing cheap labor

[cleanhippie]

7. wait, what?

babies are not being born? You mean that people are not having babies or that they are being killed?

[conspirator]

26. I meant "killed" before being conceived nt

[cleanhippie]

30. Ok, now I am confused.

What are you talking about?

[blondeatlast]

46. Could you kindly explain how that is possible? nt

[cynatnite]

60. Damn, my dog's head just exploded. n/t

[Codeine]

85. Jesus fuckin' Christ.

That's honestly one of the nuttiest sentiments I've ever heard on DU.

[conspirator]

112. it was a joke, and only msanthrope got it nt

[Codeine]

116. Meh. Lame. nt

[uppityperson]

89. How do you kill something before it is alive? If you mean "don't conceive", that is far

different from '"killed" before being conceived.

[msanthrope]

96. Is this the Monthy Python "every sperm is sacred" rule?

Because that's the only sense I can make of your post, and that's frickin' sad...

[blondeatlast]

8. Bunny. Pancake. nt

[blondeatlast]

9. Don't agree with Mr. Bill on much, but on this one I do.

Props to him for this and the Gates Foundation's anti-malaria efforts. The school privatization thing, not so much.

[Dokkie]

162. do you know

malaria alone is not the reason why most Africans are dying of malaria? Everyone in my family got infected with malaria every raining season and for the most part never took any pills for it. The immune system of most people easily fight off the disease. The sad truth is that most people that die of malaria are the malnourished, sick, old and the young, so unless his anti malaria efforts includes some form of nutrition program or agricultural assistance then hes not going to succeed.

[goforit]

10. Fortunately for Gates, he doen't have a autistic child.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

11. you are aware that hoax has been completely discredited right?

http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c7452.full

[blondeatlast]

16. Hoo-boy; you just opened a case of 'incredibly twisted logical discreditation

of the discreditation'.

:applause: I love to see the ridiculous claims from the anti-vaxers.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

50. I would find them alot more cute if they were not killing people

I hold the anti-vaxers in every bit as much contempt as I hold those who refuse medical care for their children in lieu of prayer.

[Hannah Bell]

74. please document the claim that they are killing people. since rates of childhood vaccinations are

at all-time highs, and outbreaks at all-time lows, & when you look at the outbreaks you find that some cases were VACCINATED.

But please point me to the US deaths caused by non-vaccinators.

Even before vaccination the post WW2 death rate from measles was about .3% of cases.

Centers for Disease control data:

% = percent of vaccination-age children vaccinated with MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) in that year.
() = the number of cases of measles that year.


1967: 60% (62,705)

1970: 58.4% (47,351)

1975: 65.5% (24,374)

1980: 66.6% (13,506)

1985: 61.2% (2,822)

1991: 82% (9,643)

1992: 82.5% (2,237)

1993: 84.1% (312)

1994: 89% (963)

1995: 87.6% (309)

1996: 90.7% (508)

1997: 90.5% (138)

1998: 92% (100)

1999: 91.5% (100)

2000: 90.5% (86)

2001: 91.4% (116)

2002: 91.6% (44)

2003: 93% (56)

2004: 93% (37)

2005: 91.5% (66)

2006: 92.4% (55)

2007: (92.4% to Q2 07) (30) (42 in revision)

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook /...
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook /...
http://www2a.cdc.gov/nip/coverage/nis/nis_ ...



As you can see for yourself, to Q2 2007, vaccination rates have risen steadily, & the period 2003-2007 had the highest coverage of any 5-year period on record.

and the lowest number of people affected by outbreaks.

and if you investigate some of the outbreaks, they were in populations that HAD BEEN VACCINATED.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Hannah%20Bell...

[Ilsa]

75. I don't know if there is a connection, but my autistic child had a bad reaction to

the meningoccal vaccine. He ran a fever and vomited for the next 36 hours. In summer, before contact with school kids. I didn't want him to skip getting that vaccine, though.

Oh, when my son had his physical before the vax, there was no murmur. Three months later, he has a heart murmur. Maybe it's his meds, maybe we missed an infection, maybe the vax had something to do with it. I dunno. But I don't completely trust the vax regimen the AAP has these babies on.

Bill Gates doesn't have a fucking clue what hard decisions some of us have to make for our disabled children. I find his lack of sympathy as a parent appalling.

[Ilsa]

76. Delete. This was supposed to be a response to another post.

[Odin2005]

13. Gates is thought to be an Aspie himself.

[LeftishBrit]

15. And if he did, it wouldn't be the result of vaccination.

That theory has been disproved; and is just a red herring that unfortunately still diverts resources away from investigating the *real* causes and nature of autism.

[cleanhippie]

33. What does that have to do with anything?

There is no link between vaccines and autism, you know that right? The one study that found a link turned out to be a fraud. You know that too, right?

[GoneOffShore]

48. If his child was autistic, vaccines would not be at fault.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. If he had aN autistic child, it wouldn't be because of a vaccine

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. No, Bill Gates is an Aspie

next... idiotic statement...

[girl gone mad]

66. I seriously doubt that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. You can doubt what you want but he is

his interviews with John Stewart have classic behavior markers, but hell what would anybody know.

HE IS.

And it did not come from a vaccine either

[Codeine]

86. LOL! You're diagnosing AS based on his Jon Stewart interviews?!

:rofl: You go, Dr. Frist!

[Ilsa]

77. That's why he doesn't have a clue. Did his parents have a diagnosis on him?

I doubt it. Maybe his Asperger's is why he's being an insensitive clod, but he should know by now that such comments are rude and hurtful.

[tammywammy]

12. k&r

[Odin2005]

14. Thanks for giving thr Anti-Vax nuts a PR boost, Bill!

"So you agree with Bill Gates, YOU ARE EVIL!!!" :eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

181. he's simply wrong. from the date of the wakefield paper on MMR vaccine in 1998

through 2008, 14 people have died in the us from measles, mumps, or rubella.

in england & wales, 14 people died of measles in the same period.

still waiting for documentation of the "thousands" bill claims have died because anti-vaxxers took their cue from the wakefield paper & neglected to use the mmr vaccine.

[Hannah Bell]

17. bill gates' investments kill children.

[antigone382]

19. Broken clock n/t

;)

[Hannah Bell]

20. the personal comment doesn't substitute for fact-based critique.

[antigone382]

21. I was referring to Bill Gates, not you...I was more or less agreeing with you.

Sorry for not clarifying.

[antigone382]

25. You know, I've supported you a few times in the past, trying to keep threads kicked and things...

...and I agree with your stance most of the time whether I have the time to post or not. Understandably, you still don't know me from Adam and I'm not expecting you to invite me to birthday parties or anything, but it would be nice if you would acknowledge my clarification that I wasn't being hostile to you, but rather agreeing that Bill Gates, absent one or two logical positions, is a classist, counterproductive jerk.

[cleanhippie]

36. Yeah, buddy, good luck with that. I encourage you not to hold your breath.

[Hannah Bell]

49. i was online about ten minutes yesterday. sorry i didn't respond as you would have wished.

your post was cryptic. thank you for the clarification.

[Hannah Bell]

22. gates foundation investments = kid-killers

An ink spot certified that he had been immunized against polio and measles, thanks to a vaccination drive supported by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

But polio is not the only threat Justice faces. Almost since birth, he has had respiratory trouble. His neighbors call it "the cough." People blame fumes and soot spewing from flames that tower 300 feet into the air over a nearby oil plant. It is owned by the Italian petroleum giant Eni, whose investors include the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

Justice squirmed in his mother's arms. His face was beaded with sweat caused either by illness or by heat from the flames that illuminate Ebocha day and night. Ebocha means "city of lights."

The makeshift clinic at a church where Justice Eta was vaccinated and the flares spewing over Ebocha represent a head-on conflict for the Gates Foundation. In a contradiction between its grants and its endowment holdings, a Times investigation has found, the foundation reaps vast financial gains every year from investments that contravene its good works.

In Ebocha, where Justice lives, Dr. Elekwachi Okey, a local physician, says hundreds of flares at oil plants in the Niger Delta have caused an epidemic of bronchitis in adults, and asthma and blurred vision in children. No definitive studies have documented the health effects, but many of the 250 toxic chemicals in the fumes and soot have long been linked to respiratory disease and cancer.
http://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-gatesx07jan07,0,290910,full.story

[cleanhippie]

35. How is that? Please, be specific.

And include substantiating evidence.

[Hannah Bell]

68. The Gates Foundation has poured $218 million into polio and measles immunization

At the same time that the foundation is funding inoculations to protect health, The Times found, it has invested $423 million in Eni, Royal Dutch Shell, Exxon Mobil Corp., Chevron Corp. and Total of France — the companies responsible for most of the flares blanketing the delta with pollution, beyond anything permitted in the United States or Europe. Indeed, local leaders blame oil development for fostering some of the very afflictions that the foundation combats.

Oil workers, for example, and soldiers protecting them are a magnet for prostitution, contributing to a surge in HIV and teenage pregnancy, both targets in the Gates Foundation's efforts to ease the ills of society, especially among the poor. Oil bore holes fill with stagnant water, which is ideal for mosquitoes that spread malaria, one of the diseases the foundation is fighting.

Investigators for Dr. Nonyenim Solomon Enyidah, health commissioner for Rivers State, where Ebocha is located, cite an oil spill clogging rivers as a cause of cholera, another scourge the foundation is battling. The rivers, Enyidah said, "became breeding grounds for all kinds of waterborne diseases."

The bright, sooty gas flares — which contain toxic byproducts such as benzene, mercury and chromium — lower immunity, Enyidah said, and make children such as Justice Eta more susceptible to polio and measles — the diseases that the Gates Foundation has helped to inoculate him against.

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-gatesx07jan07,0,2533850.story?page=2


The demand for certain minerals in the computer industry helps fuel the wars in the Congo & surrounding states.

The push to marketize agriculture in Africa pushes subsistence farmers into the slums of the cities.

There are hundreds of ways Bill Gates helps kill people & make them sick.

[cleanhippie]

79. *facepalm* I see that you have a "thing" for Gates and reason or rational thought is impossible

Especially considering your willful ignorance on vaccines, I think it is safe to say that no amount of evidence will ever convince you.






Not a day goes by that I am not astounded at the amount of willful ignorance and self delusion people will subject themselves to.

[Hannah Bell]

102. i'm the only person on this thread who's posted actual vaccination coverage rates from CDC.

which are at historical highs, contra the hype from your crowd.

[cleanhippie]

111. You are the only person who beleieves that vaccines are a risk and that NOT vaccinating is ok.

Ignorance, its whats for breakfast at your house, I guess.

[Hannah Bell]

120. link me to the post where i say anything like that. better check your logic,

as you appear to have missed that unit in school.

[cleanhippie]

123. Have I been mistaken? Do you NOT think there is a link between vaccines and autism?

Do you think that that all children need to be vaccinated?

Two questions, yes or no will do. You can clear this all up right here and now.

[Hannah Bell]

130. show me where i made the claim you say i did. you said it, back it up.

[cleanhippie]

186. A simple yes or no, and the whole matter would be cleared up, yet you continue to obfuscate.

Let me know when you are able to have a straight forward conversation.

[bemildred]

18. Very funny coming from the Uber-greedhead. nt

[defendandprotect]

41. We know how often the right wing is right .... !! And free of profit motives ... !!

[Warren DeMontague]

24. K & R

:kick:

[Raine]

28. Yeah well so does Monsanto

or don't you care about that Mr Gates since you're so connected with them.

[Canuckistanian]

32. So does Monsanto, Bill

C'mon, Bill, you've almost got it.

[The Straight Story]

34. Meh - I'll stick with people being pro-choice, I don't think the idea applies to only one thing

Sad so many who call themselves liberals do.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

42. Nope, sorry. Abortion does not have an effect on strangers.

Having people spread disease, however, affects many people other than the person who decided to get their medical advice from a failed comedian...people too young to be vaccinated and the immunocompromised spring to mind

[The Straight Story]

43. Some might call the fetus a stranger :) Your body, your choice. Period.

You want to trust the same people who tell you pill X is great for you and then years later they had to stop selling it because they were wrong and people died?

My body, My choice, and I don't have to trust people who are continually wrong.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

45. You going out and spreading disease to those who CANT be immunized makes it NOT just about you

A fetus is not a person. A newborn is. A cancer patient is.

[darkstar3]

55. +1

And Straight Story, I hope you understand that the proven fact of herd immunity pretty much eliminates the old adage of "my body, my choice", which could otherwise be surmised as "your right to do X ends at my nose."

[Joe the Revelator]

58. +2

[blondeatlast]

64. +1. nt

[PBS Poll-435]

143. +950

[ohheckyeah]

67. ALL vaccines

like all medications carry risks. I agree with you...I weigh risks before I submit to a vaccine. I've never had a flu shot in my life and probably never will and the reason is I don't react well to medications.

[NashVegas]

192. Untrue. ALL Unchecked Behavior Has An Affect On Strangers

It's called "culture" and "societal values." Look it up some time when you're bored.

[LeftishBrit]

193. However....

the law should intervene when behaviour has physical, or in some cases *direct* severe psychological, effects on others.

It should *not* intervene because someone is seen as contravening a cultural norm or setting a bad example ("think of the children!") That risks falling into the mindset of religious right-wingers and similar social conservatives, who IMO seriously damage society in many parts of the world.

FWIW, I think the physical risks to others from smoking in a confined indoor space are sufficient to justify a ban; the risks to others from smoking on the beach in the open air are not. Others may disagree on either side of this.

[LeftishBrit]

73. You are confusing all non-vacci nators with anti-vaccinators

Anti-vaccinators - those who actively campaign against vaccination - are not pro-choice. They are anti-choice for poor people. Poor people depend on free provision of vaccination by governments or other agencies, so they are being denied a choice if vaccinations are not provided.

In general, I do not support vaccination mandates, except in serious public health emergencies. I support free provision and encouragement of vaccinations, preferably under a universal free health care system. But if vaccinations are not available or not affordable, then many people are being mandated NOT to have them - as is still the case for millions in developing countries.

Many of the serious anti-vaccinators are also generally against government provision of health care, and have a 'teabaggerish' distrust of all government and all public service provision.

[msanthrope]

97. Who knew Typhoid Mary was just a civil rights champion, eh?

jeebus--choice doesn't extend to getting other people sick.

[Capitalocracy]

37. For once, we agree.

Now tell me again how privatization, mechanization, and union-busting are going to help our school system, Bill?

[defendandprotect]

39. Next Step ... "Anti-vaccine people are terrorists...." !!

[slackmaster]

44. Not that there's anything wrong with that

[Posteritatis]

103. They are, without exception, public health risks at the very best. (nt)

[PBS Poll-435]

136. Just keep them and their offspring at home.

The scientists that developed this vaccines decades ago are rolling in their graves.


Imagine just how close we were to eradicating so many diseases. So close.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. I also agree with Gates

But I still wish he'd get out of education.

[leftstreet]

53. I wish he'd use that piehole to say FOR PROFIT HEALTHCARE KILLS PEOPLE

Assclown

[undeterred]

158. +1000

[earth mom]

56. I could give a fuck about Bill Gates's OPINION.

:puke:

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. He is correct

[Hannah Bell]

180. he's full of shit, nadin. precisely 14 people have died in the us 1998-2008 from measles, mumps &

rubella combined.

[Democat]

61. Sounds about right.

Wasn't the anti-vaccine doctor proven to be a fraud?

[ipaint]

63. He ought a know how to recognize a phony study and child murderers.

His charter school movement fudges stats all the time and his foundation's investments kill children.

[Hannah Bell]

69. +100.

[Starry Messenger]

105. Best answer yet. n/t

[Prometheus Bound]

70. How does a software guy's opinion on vaccines become headline material?

What's next! Actors? Hotel operators? Farm machinery manufacturers?

[Hannah Bell]

71. bill gates is in charge of US agriculture, medical & education policy. hadn't you heard?

he's also in charge of all those things for the entire planet.

[Prometheus Bound]

72. Well in that case I bow to his expertise.

:)

[blondeatlast]

106. One particular "entertainer" (I use the term quite loosely) was considered quite an expert

on the issue.

[sendero]

165. And a completely mediocre..

... software guy at that.

[DeadEyeDyck]

81. this one-size-fits-all vaccine is breading autistic babies!!

[blondeatlast]

84. And frying them up as well. Yummy!

Your post, unedited:

"this one-size-fits-all vaccine is breading autistic babies!!"

[Codeine]

88. Hopefully he uses delicious herbs and spices.

[GoneOffShore]

135. And lots of MSG!

[name not needed]

190. Nope, cornflakes.

[uppityperson]

90. I wonder, do you serve breaded autistic babies with soy sauce, mayo or ketchup?

[msanthrope]

94. There's a special dipping sauce ---it's GFCF duck sauce...n/t

[PBS Poll-435]

131. HFCS Sweet & Sour Sauce. nt

[Codeine]

95. Malt vinegar only, you philistine! nt

[blondeatlast]

104. Exactly! nt

[NashVegas]

87. So Why Does Gates Believe Vaccines Are the Means to Population Control?

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=127346

Discussing the "P," or population portion of the equation, he stated, "Let's take a look. First we got population. The world today has 6.8 billion people. That's headed up to about 9 billion. Now if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care, reproductive health services, we could lower that by perhaps 10 or 15 percent"

[darkstar3]

114. No one will take you seriously when you link to wing nut daily. n/t

[msanthrope]

164. Hey!!! I found their expose on how soy makes you gay to be helpful

and I think it struck a blow against big-Soy!!!

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53327

[NashVegas]

191. Do You Dispute the Authenticity of the Video?

[KansasVoter]

91. 100% true!!!

[Taverner]

99. Mr. Gates is 100% correct eom

[Hannah Bell]

107. please link me to these cases of unvaccinated people killing vaccinated ones, since childhood

vaccination rates are at all-time highs.....

document your belief.

[Taverner]

108. No unvaccinated kids kill OTHER unvaccinated kids

[Hannah Bell]

119. ok, link me to these deaths.

[Taverner]

133. It's that it has the potential to kill

I could leave live hand grenades all over the places and it might not kill anyone, but it might - hence the danger of NOT VACCINATING.

I've lived in countries where vaccination was poor and these diseases were very easy to catch w/o the vaccination.

[Hannah Bell]

142. your claim, & gates' claim is: "unvaccinated kids kill OTHER unvaccinated kids"

and in gates' case, he specifically claims that it's the anti-vax folks "killing" people.

many things MAY kill people.

I asked for documentation of your & gates' claim that people who don't get their children vaccinated ARE killing people, DO kill people. in the us. now.

[Taverner]

146. Look - there's no getting around the fact that the anti-vax folks were WRONG

And their leader was a con man, who was conning you guys

Accept it, move on and get over this

[Hannah Bell]

153. where did you get the idea i'm an anti-vaxxer? i'm no such thing.

otoh, i don't accept the hype on the other side, i.e. that hordes of anti-vaxxers are killing children.

the data don't support that claim.

[PBS Poll-435]

140. It's fucking Google

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/24/us/24cough.html


The announcement came after authorities noticed a sharp spike in reports of pertussis, the scientific name for whooping cough, which often is mistaken for a cold or the flu and is highly contagious. All told, 910 cases have been confirmed, with several hundred more under investigation. If the pace keeps up, the outbreak could be the largest in the state in 50 years, the California Department of Public Health reported.

For five families, however, the state’s warning has come too late. Five children — all Latino and all under the age of 3 months — have died since the beginning of the year, Dr. Chavez said.

David Luchini, a spokesman for the Fresno County Department of Public Health, said health officials there were still pushing to get the word out, online and in person, particularly to adolescents and adults who might transmit the disease to infants and whose vaccinations may have waned. “That way,” he said, “you cocoon them from this

[Hannah Bell]

145. now link me to the evidence that those 5 deaths are due to anti-vaccers refusing to vaccinate their

children.

[PBS Poll-435]

147. Not Refusal, Ignorance

It is highly probable that these folks had traveled from where they had previously lived.


A vaccine ad campaign in English and Spanish might have prevented these cases and deaths.



Please do not be willfully ignorant.

[Hannah Bell]

151. that's not the claim that bill gates made. nor is it the claim that his acolytes here are agreeing

with.

the claim is that the anti-vaxers are killing children by not inoculating their own.

in fact, bill gates claims "thousands" have died because of the wakefield thing -- from measles & pertussis:

"So it’s an absolute lie that has killed thousands of kids.

Because the mothers who heard that lie, many of them didn’t have their kids take either pertussis or measles vaccine, and their children are dead today. And so the people who go and engage in those anti-vaccine efforts — you know, they, they kill children. It’s a very sad thing, because these vaccines are important."

i want some documentation for that claim, since bill gates is spreading it all over the country & dozens of folks on this thread apparently agree.

[PBS Poll-435]

152. Do you in any good sense or honesty believe that persons susceptible to Diphtheria

Can not catch it and spread it to persons not vaccinated? (From your many posted figures... 5%+ are not vaccinated.)

This is ludicrous and absurd.

[Hannah Bell]

154. diptheria? what? pertussis = whooping cough.

[PBS Poll-435]

155. All diseases that should have been eradicated by vaccination

Instead you had migration and idiots that believed that vaccines cause ASD.


Diphtheria was my choice disease because I just ran across an article that says that too is on the rise.


And, yes, I know that Pertussis is "Whooping Cough".

[Hannah Bell]

156. here is the claim gates made, the claim that posters are supporting:

"Because the mothers who heard that lie, many of them didn’t have their kids take either pertussis or measles vaccine, and their children are dead today."

i am asking for documentation of that claim.

throwing in the kitchen sink just clouds the matter.

there was an outbreak of pertussis in 2010. that doesn't mean "cases are rising". it is impossible to say cases are rising without a trend line. cases go up & down year to year, sometimes in opposition to vaccination coverage rates. immaterial unless the OVERALL trend is up, something which can't be discerned from one outbreak.

I'm asking for something very simple: documentation of the claims made with actual evidence, not anecdotes about "something you read".

I'm the only person in this thread who's posted actual data.

[PBS Poll-435]

157. Fine. If you can't do your own research, be a VaxxTruther

This is so idiotic.

[Hannah Bell]

167. what's idiotic is your assumption that if someone asks for evidence to support gates' claim

that "thousands" have died because of anti-vaxxers, one must be a "vaxxtruther", whatever the hell that is.

if anyone had evidence, they would have produced it.

they didn't, & it's because there is no such evidence, and that's because the claim is false.

[PBS Poll-435]

168. You want to be on the wrong side of every common-sense argument

Fine.

Enjoy.

Vaccines do not cause major heath epidemics. They do however protect kids.

[Hannah Bell]

169. please show me where i claimed vaccines caused epidemics or didn't protect kids.

it's very tiresome when people talk to the phantoms in their own heads.

[PBS Poll-435]

170. Now you are just getting silly

I do find it curious how you want to be on the wrong side of nearly every argument.

[Hannah Bell]

175. show me the evidence for your claim. my side of this argument = asking for documentation

that anti-vaxxers have caused thousands of people to die.

also providing statistics demonstrating that MMR & pertussis vaccination coverage is at all-time highs.

no one has yet offered any evidence that anti-vaxxers have killed thousands of people, or that vaccination coverage is declining due to the influence of anti-vaxxers. or any serious evidence of trends whatsoever.

prove it or shut up.

also, as an adult, are you up to date on your pertussis booster?

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cleanhippie]

189. Wow, how much denial can you generate?

That is some serious self-denial you have going on there.

[Scruffy1]

109. What do you expect from a website that features ...

faith in astrology and guns. Fuck the war on science.

[Maru Kitteh]

113. He's completely correct. Anti-vax nutbaggers do KILL children. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

134. document that claim. evidence?

[WinkyDink]

125. Poverty kills more.

[RandomThoughts]

129. Actually lack of trust in many groups because of there corruption

And obvious wrong of corruption has made it so nobody believes what some say.

The consolidations created a situation where people with those consolidations can't help in many ways.

Bill's consolidations is why people don't trust him. If you had moderation or gave it away without strings then people might trust you. So you being part of that program is killing children.

And why the rich don't make the decisions in a democracy.

And I am due beer and travel money, and many experiences.

[Agony]

166. That the truth happens to pop out of Gate's mouth does not prove him worthy of attention...

"And why the rich don't make decisions in a democracy."

I will be fine with just the beer.

[AngryAmish]

132. I see the poo-flingers have found a target with Bill Gates

why? who knows. But poo must be flung.

[PBS Poll-435]

138. Delayed BSOD Reaction. nt

[Hannah Bell]

139. maybe if you actually read the posts, instead of constantly mounting a knee-jerk defense of gates,

you'd know.

in fact, documenting gates' machinations isn't "poo-flinging".

but calling people "poo-flingers" IS.

[darkstar3]

141. Shooting the messenger does nothing about the message.

Gates isn't the topic here. Move on.

[RandomThoughts]

144. he is a consolidation, form money

[blondeatlast]

149. Honest question: Do you understand you? nt

[RandomThoughts]

161. Yea.

what don't you understand about that?

[Hannah Bell]

176. he's not? then why does the op start with his name?

in fact, the topic here is that bill gates claims anti vaxxers have killed thousands.

any multiple people signed in here to say they agree.

i'm just asking for the evidence for this rather remarkable claim.

Here's some more facts:

Wakefield's paper was published in 1998. It was specifically about MMR vaccine; that's why the first stats I posted were about MMR vaccination coverage & cases.

Jenny McCarthy's claim that vaccines can trigger autism was made in 2008. It was about vaccines in general.

So for Gates to prove his claim, he needs to demonstrate:

1. That "thousands" (=more than 2000) of people have died from complications of infection from measles, mumps & rubella since 1998, and

2. That the majority of these cases were due to infection from anti-vaxxers.

Just waiting for someone to demonstrate the first, let alone the second.

[darkstar3]

177. So your issue is that Gates said something generic,

or simply that Gates said something you don't like?

Did it ever occur to you that he was talking about not just the US, but the entire world? Gates' foundation works on the issue of health worldwide, including many places in the developing world, where data is hard to accumulate accurately and Western vaccines have been met with resistance from various anti-vax corners.

The cold, hard fact is that anti-vax sentiment worldwide is a problem that leads to child mortality. Parsing Gates' statements on that problem because you have a personal agenda against him helps no one, and with your hateful tone makes you appear to be an anti-vaxer yourself. So, just in case you are such a creature, and for those anti-vaxers who might read this post, I choose to include this link: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm.

[Hannah Bell]

179. i doubt very seriously that the "whole world" has heard of wakefield or mccarthy.

Gates was talking about the Wakefield paper. It was originally published in the Lancet in 1998. It was specifically about MMR vacine.

The main lay audience = primarily Britain & the US, & secondarily the developed world. 99% of all measles deaths occur in the "developing world".

In the US 14 people died of measles, mumps or rubella 1998-2008.

Measles deaths in England & Wales 1998-2008 = 14.

http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733835814

The picture is similar across Western Europe.

[darkstar3]

182. Perhaps the whole world has not heard of Wakefield or McCarthy,

but I guarantee you the fear of vaccination and Western medicine extends far beyond those who have heard of Wakefield or read his fraudulent "study". Anti-vax sentiment, regardless of source, kills in areas where Gates' foundation is doing a lot of work. Does it kill here? Not yet, at least not appreciably, thanks to herd immunity, but if you would bother to read the book I mentioned before by Dr. Offit, you would see that as anti-vax sentiment grows in the developed world our herd immunity is being damaged.

Anti-vaxers are a danger to public health in general, but most especially to the health of their own children. Your clear attempts at legitimizing that movement are distasteful, not to mention disingenuous. If you were really looking for the data you seek you would be happy to pick up a book, or do your own Google searching. Instead you continue to demand, with the most forcible language you can muster, that people prove to you beyond a shadow of doubt that anti-vaxers have been documented as being responsible for thousands of deaths. When presented with the possibility that the scope of Gates' statement could go well beyond the purview of the CDC or its British counterpart, you ignore the fact that Gates' foundation works primarily in the developing world and that, since this is a topic about which he feels strongly, he might just have conflated the anti-vax sentiment reflected in Wakefield's paper and more general anti-vax sentiment worldwide.

In short, you care nothing for the facts you keep demanding and wish only to berate people here for rightfully coming down hard on anti-vaxers. You can employ logical fallacies, shift focus, move goalposts, and write in all caps until you collapse from hyperventilation, but now that the sum total of your posts shows a clear agenda that I find detestable I am declaring an end to this conversation.

Good night.

[Hannah Bell]

183. all that is blah-blah. i asked for one specific thing: documentation of gates' claim.

his claim was that the actions of people who bought into the wakefield paper had killed people, specifically "thousands" of people.

Not one person has offered any evidence that it's the case.

You can't. There is no such evidence.

Now please document your new claims, i.e. that I have moved goalposts or presented logical fallacies.

In fact, you yourself now move the goalposts: Since there's no evidence of thousands of deaths in the developed world, you claim instead that anti-vax sentiment is damaging our "herd immunity".

Herd immunity (or community immunity) describes a form of immunity that occurs when the vaccination of a significant portion of a population (or herd) provides a measure of protection for individuals who have not developed immunity.<1>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

That is, "herd immunity" isn't 100% coverage. According to the figures cited at the link, which are from CDC & WHO, "herd immunity" for measles = 83-94% coverage. We achieved that quite a while back, & still have it. So please explain how our "herd immunity" is damaged when vaccination coverage rates for MMR & DPT are at all-time highs here in the US.

In fact:

Indigenous measles were declared to have been eliminated in North, Central, and South America; the last endemic case in the region was reported on November 12, 2002, with only Northern Argentina and rural Canada, particularly in the provinces of Ontario, Quebec, and Alberta having minor endemic status.<53> Outbreaks are still occurring, however, following importations of measles viruses from other world regions. In June 2006, an outbreak in Boston resulted after a resident became infected in India,<54> and in October 2007, a Michigan girl who had been vaccinated contracted the disease in Sweden.<55>

and:

Globally, measles fell 60% from an estimated 873,000 deaths in 1999 to 345,000 in 2005.<10> Estimates for 2008 indicate deaths fell further to 164,000 globally, with 77% of the remaining measles deaths in 2008 occurring within the South-East Asian region.<24>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles

Then you claim if I were looking for data I would be happy to use google or pick up a book.

Idiotic, since I have repeatedly "used google" to present you with vaccination coverage statistics, case statistics, and mortality statistics from authoritative sources.

Then you say Gates may have "conflated the anti-vax sentiment reflected in Wakefield's paper and more general anti-vax sentiment worldwide."

Worldwide? What are you talking about? From the OP:

Gupta: There has been a lot of scrutiny of vaccines recently — specifically childhood vaccines. There has been a lot of news about is there a connection with autism, for example. What do you make of all that? Dr. Wakefield wrote a paper about this saying he thought there was a connection. And there were lower vaccination rates over a period of time as a result in Britain, then the United States. What are your thoughts?

Gates: Well, Dr. Wakefield has been shown to have used absolutely fraudulent data. He had a financial interest in some lawsuits, he created a fake paper, the journal allowed it to run. All the other studies were done, showed no connection whatsoever again and again and again. So it’s an absolute lie that has killed thousands of kids. Because the mothers who heard that lie, many of them didn’t have their kids take either pertussis or measles vaccine, and their children are dead today. And so the people who go and engage in those anti-vaccine efforts — you know, they, they kill children. It’s a very sad thing, because these vaccines are important.


There is no indication that Gupta's question is about the developing world. Rather the opposite: he specifically mentions the UK & US.

To repeat, most measles cases -- & deaths -- occur in the developing world -- particularly the poor in the developed world. Whatever 'anti-vax sentiment" there may be there, it has nothing to do with the wakefield paper.

and finally, none of that has anything to do with Gates' claim about the effect of the wakefield paper.

It's just hogwash.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Hannah%20Bell/37

[KansasVoter]

160. LOL.....you complaining about "knee-jerk".

[Hannah Bell]

178. still waiting for the data.

[grahamhgreen]

150. It's big insurance that kills children.