Why Americans Can't "Go Egyptian" - We Have No Mubarak.

[RadiationTherapy]

In the Grapes of Wrath, Muley Graves laments "who do I shoot?" as he is informed of the layers and layers of bureaucracy that protects the "bankers in a board room in New York somewheres" who are repossessing the homes around the Joad farm. The point being made, of course, is that there is no figurehead to "shoot". There is no face of oppression in America, hence, there is a great deal of difficulty in finding a center for a movement to revolutionize America's economic landscape.

Some people want to "fight capitalism", but we know from the "War on Terror" that one cannot riot against or fight an ideology. The riots in Cairo cannot and will not happen here because there is no "face of the enemy" here.

What do we do?

[Taverner]

1. Subvert from within is our only option

[BOG PERSON]

11. that reminds me of an exchange between homer and lisa in "whacking day"

Lisa: Dad, for the last time, please don't lower yourself to the level of the mob!

Homer: Lisa, maybe if I'm part of that mob, I can help steer it in wise directions. Now where's my giant foam cowboy hat and airhorn?

[Taverner]

12. And one might read (or re-read) Vonnegut's brilliant "Mother Night"

The film is just as haunting as the book

[defendandprotect]

38. Not familiar with that one ... a little recap?

[Taverner]

41. An American writer in Germany during WWII

He becomes an agent for the OSS, while posing as an Anti-Semite German radio show host aimed at Americans (like Tokyo Rose) His intonations, coughs, delivery is all code that's being sent from Germany to the US. After the war, the Government of course has to deny doing this.

Great read, Great movie - Nick Nolte is in it.

[defendandprotect]

52. I'll look for it -- thanks --!!

[RadiationTherapy]

14. I agree. A 'Fight Club' style takeover of the "means of production" away from the owners

and into the hands of the proletariot. Force them to ask the police and military to protect their 8-figure salaries from us.

[Cleita]

2. We make them irrelevant and consolidate power elsewhere.

The Brits did this. The Queen has practically no power in government any more. Corporations did it to us. They hold the real power and the three branches of government with the exception of a few mavericks like Bernie Sanders, are controlled by them. So we need to take power back from the corporations. We may have to do this at a state or even local level to bring them back under our control.

[ladjf]

10. An end run. nt

[Ron Green]

3. The Corporate Power Structure is our Mubarak.

Reviled by those who think, loved by those who don't.

[defendandprotect]

27. Exactly -- the Establishment -- Wall Street -- Hierarchies of rw power ...

[abelenkpe]

4. protest the corporations?

Yours is a good question really.

[Newest Reality]

5. Well,

our pickle is that the entrenched, corporate regime we labor under, (like carrying a heavy block of stone) also controls and/or provides most of the goods and services we rely on. That's the enforcement factor and probably the greatest incentive against throwing off this insidious, growing Fascist beast and all of its slimy tentacles.

Most of us are like kept cattle, (and I do not mean that analogy to be condescending) in the sense that we are a world removed from ways to provide for ourselves. We are not just wholly dependent on the Overlords of Industry for complex or superfluous goods. The very necessities, (the ones that matter and mean survival) are wholly owned and controlled by the Masters of Industry behind which, aristocratic families hide comfortably behind while they pull the strings that are edited-out by their media.

So, our response would have to be custom to our circumstances, considering that we are embedded in a jungle of Plutocracy and most can only survive by cowering up to its log-emblazoned teats for sustenance.

While it seems overwhelming, especially since we are watching our government and officials act as subsidies of the Elitist Corporate Persons, we could consider the scope and depth of a response and how it might function. When you consider options, they don't have to be based on past perceptions, nor are they necessarily radical or rapid in nature.

First, know where you are and how it works. Information is key. Then, take stock of what prevents the collective pushing-back at the humongous Goliath that is your opponent. What especially stands-out are the machinations that inject and inflame divisiveness throughout the culture. While the divisions exist, exacerbating them only serves, overall, to prevent any collective efforts towards necessary, even crucial, change.

What's it worth? That's a good question because there will be some hardship and sacrifice, though much of it will be about casting off what you didn't really need for happiness and security in the first place.

[dixiegrrrrl]

18. Very intelligent logical answer.

If people are just starting out on the road to change, one step is to stop, look, listen at the tools of divisiveness being used against us.
It is all manufactured and directed to keep us from focusing on a common issue.

[RadiationTherapy]

26. I appreciate your response and look to the future.

Perhaps a revolution on a workplace-to-workplace model. Perhaps...

[defendandprotect]

31. Interesting response -- k/r ....

Especially this part ....

While it seems overwhelming, especially since we are watching our government and officials act as subsidies of the Elitist Corporate Persons, we could consider the scope and depth of a response and how it might function. When you consider options, they don't have to be based on past perceptions, nor are they necessarily radical or rapid in nature.

First, know where you are and how it works. Information is key. Then, take stock of what prevents the collective pushing-back at the humongous Goliath that is your opponent. What especially stands-out are the machinations that inject and inflame divisiveness throughout the culture. While the divisions exist, exacerbating them only serves, overall, to prevent any collective efforts towards necessary, even crucial, change.

What's it worth? That's a good question because there will be some hardship and sacrifice, though much of it will be about casting off what you didn't really need for happiness and security in the first place.


We do have to realize however that Global Warming is going to have a huge impact --

and Peak Oil -- which will certainly force citizens back to actual contact and cooperation

with one anoher to survive.

[bobbolink]

6. The pressure is building, though. So, we build alliances, educate those who

don't understand about corporations, ignore those who are untrainable, and know that our time will come.

[TBF]

7. I believe this is correct. We are at a disadvantage with our left destroyed -

and by left I mean far-left. The communists had gained inroads with labor and were a force to reckon with when FDR was president (and responded with the New Deal). Obama did not respond accordingly in this depression because there was no serious challenge forcing him to.

Education, building alliances, and most of all re-building labor (and educating those who think they are "owners" but really have little to no wealth/power).

[bobbolink]

8. Then its up to us, and we have tools previous generations didn't have.

The ball is squarely in our court, but we seem to be bizzzzy elesewhere.

[Hydra]

28. There isn't enough focus on the problem

Our system is the problem, but the people who do "well" in it fight to protect it.

The deliberate crash of our economy helped us some, but too many people still think capitalism and the banksters and such are still the answer.

They think it just requires regulation. Who can control these monsters? Why do we need a system of monsters in the first place?

[bobbolink]

29. Yes, the focus is missing.... including right here on DU.

Its past time to look to ourselves.

I repeat what I said... there is much we can do.

[RadiationTherapy]

33. I agree there is much, but the Egypt model is being used to criticize american lack-tivism

whereas I find the method and model of the Egyptian revolution to be insufficient to address our american problems.

But, yes, there is much we can do.

[defendandprotect]

40. I don't see that ... I see the question arising as to where is any American activism? That's all...

And it's something that DU'ers ask very frequently asking here at DU -- long before

Egyptian people's rising up for democracy!

[bobbolink]

46. That is the very simple point.... every circumstance is different.

It is a sad lack of imagination to think that "we" should do what others, in a very different circumstance, should do.

Sad lack of imagination, plus possibly a few agent Mikes around..... ^_^

Look back at the movement that began in Berkeley in the 60s..... looking at the problem, and from that, deciding what needed to be done. And it was very successful. It was a copycat... it was an original and organic growth process.

For the last 40 years we have left our imaginations and home and just continued to do the same things over and over and over and over, and then complain that we are impotent to change anything.

Yet, I can say all of this, and others can, but .... PEOPLE. CAN'T. COME. TOGETHER.

The basis of our problem is our adherence to Rugged Individualism, and refusing to recognize it.

[ladjf]

9. We don't a one person target but we have hundreds of corrupt

government officials in high places. That actual disparity between the haves and have nots is wider in the U.S. We have corrupt and greedy Wall Streeters,Bankers and CEO. We have plenty to protest.

[RadiationTherapy]

17. Of course there is plenty to protest, but we are all aiming at slightly different targets.

We need an "evil figurehead" to coordinate our efforts.

[defendandprotect]

42. "Capialism" itself is the system, long under attack by people everywhere ...

As Michael Moore has said --

"Capitalism is an evil. You can't regulate an evil."



And, as I've often said --

Capitalism is a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill" system --

intended to move a nation's wealth and natural resources from the many to the few --

and it is highly successful at doing that!


Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime!

[ladjf]

48. The nature of our problem just can't have an "evil figurehead".

A bunch of those crooks are working together on the heist. It more like a crime family. Perhaps the family could become the beast.

[leftstreet]

13. Interesting the US M$M ignore protests in Greece, Spain, France etc

Hmm

[defendandprotect]

43. WHO is watching MSM ... or our corporate press -- ???

Why would anyone be watching it --

Are people still sitting in front of their TVs waiting for some news reader

to tell them something is wrong in America?


:)

[Bragi]

15. There's no real "pro-democracy" movement either

Just an observation.

[defendandprotect]

47. The right wing has been assassinating liberal/progressive leadership in America ...

out in the open -- for almost 50 years now -- and probably long before.

After JFK and MLK and RFK, then decided they'd no longer wait for leaders

to become effective and lead movements -- they've been attacking liberal

leadership now before it can really even rise!


Americans can watching corporate-press TV forever and they'll never hear

that acknowledged!

[Bragi]

56. Interesting idea

I agree with your proposition that American liberal political leadership has been systematically eliminated starting in the 60s. That was evident in the three assassinations you list. You also make an excellent point that by the 70s and after "they'd no longer wait for (liberal) leaders to become effective and lead movements -- they've been attacking liberal leadership now before it can really even rise!"

I've not really given that final point any serious thought, but it seems to be worth thinking about. I can see how preventative surgical public relations strikes to knock out libpols long before they turned into threats would make sense.

Another thought is that the job of eliminating lob leaders was probably made much easier by the fact that most of the likely candidates ended up as well-paid, cautious and harmless careerists anyway.

- B

[defendandprotect]

59. It's an idea that Europeans noted long ago --

"In America, Liberals and progressives have an odd way of being assassinated

or otherwise eliminated."

And, of course, there has been right wing political violence long before JFK --

many say Dag Hammarskjold/UN -- Walter Reuther --

The McCarthy Era was certainly an attack on the ideals of democracy and a coup

on liberals in government and Hollywood - a bloodless coup.

Before JFK, there were right wing efforts to finance a coup on DeGaulle which Clay Shaw

was involved with organizing/financing -- and our CIA was fairly busy all over the world

to keep right wingers in government.

Same here in the states, CIA financed careers of right wing Congress members -- two I'm

familiar with are Sen. Strom Thurmond and Rep. Gerald Ford -- but supposedly others.

CIA took money from any right wing sources, including KKK and Nazis. CIA has also given

money to Pat Buchanan.


After JFK coup, supposedly something like 100 lawyers in DC were dead, and many

witnesses, of course in Dallas. The plane accident Ted Kennedy had almost immediately

after -- and Sen. Hale Boggs is a suspicious death, both in connection with JFK coup/WC

but also given his comments re Hoover's "Gestapo."


IMO, many suspicious deaths since -- I'd include Paul Wellstone -- and JFK, Jr.

The oddity of the rescue mission, itself, points to that, imo.


There was a lot of clearing the field for rw candidates -- Nixon, with Bremer/Wallace and

Bobby Kennedy. On and on --

and that doesn't even yet include computer voting -- in that regard I'd question every

election back to Nixon/Humphrey!


:)

[kgnu_fan]

16. We do have Pentagon in the middle our living room!!! Sucking our blood everyday!!

[RadiationTherapy]

19. I am not sure "overthrowing the Pentagon" will have traction among large swathes of the populace.

But maybe...

[kgnu_fan]

20. Refuse to pay our tax money to this war machine!!!!

[RadiationTherapy]

22. I see the virtue in that. How do we move against enemies in the private sector though?

[defendandprotect]

49. The same way the right wing does -- with anti-rw propaganda ...

of course we cannot, however, use VIOLENCE and intimidation which the right wing

does --

So if we lose on that count, then we have to say -- "Violence rules the world" -- ???

For tens of thousands of years, humans have been trying to figure out what to do about

the few violent among us --

[kgnu_fan]

23. all our public services are cut in order to feed this voracious monster!

[defendandprotect]

37. Are you kidding? Huge anti-war movement -- and Bush increased MIC$$ by 2X ... !!

We could also immediately save 28% of MIC budget by merging the services which

every other nation has already done!

[jwirr]

21. That goes for corporations also. We have a hard time targeting them

because they have invisible stockholders. I would hate to be the bankster in a small town. They are visible and they are seldom the ones to blame for the policies of the corporate bank.

[defendandprotect]

24. Don't think that's true re capitalism ... if you review what FDR did ....

calling out the "Robber Barons" and "Banksters" --

Right wing propagandizes against liberals and their allies 24/7 --

we can certainly return the favor re those who commit crimes of capitalism!


In that regard, Obama administration are moving vastly in the wrong direction

in suggesting criminal capitalism was worthy of being bailed out by taxpayers!

Major decisions coming from the Obama administration are pro-corporate/elites.


Additionally, capitalism is patriarchy's system -- patriarchy and organized

patriarchal religion -- male-supremacist religion --


.....



Patriarchy -- and it's underpinning =

Organized patriarchal religion -- and its economic system =

Capitalism =

The Unholy Trinity

[RadiationTherapy]

25. I understand and agree, but one cannot fight ideology.

We can educate, persecute, condemn and exile, but we cannot "fight" it.

[defendandprotect]

34. Well, you don't declare a war on ideology ... you expose the system ... capitalism...

Certainly "cancer" is a reality that we know -- but no "war on cancer" will

cure it or improve the odds -- now 1 in 3 -- we have to honestly deal with the

pollution of our environment and the damage being done to our immune systems.

[Hydra]

35. You fight a bad ideology by ignoring it and educating people

Among my peers, LBGTQI hate/fear is much lower than the previous generation, which in turn is much less than the generation before it. Misogyny is also much smaller and less popular.

Things like capitalism and imperialism can be taken down the same way. Without blind support and constant messaging, ideologies turn to dust in time.

[defendandprotect]

53. +1000% ---

[kgnu_fan]

39. First we have to fight on the media front. Information is the currency of democracy and we don't

have it. People do not know what is going on. People who send our troop to horrid wars do not know what our young people had to go through. All media is shut down on these important truth. We need to support our independent media like Democracy Now! and our local community media outlets like KGNU.

Wikileaks has shown us true power of information and we have to make sure people get educated first.

[defendandprotect]

51. +1000% --

[Fuzz]

30. Start with Wall Street and move on to the people who run and hide out of guilt?

[xchrom]

32. i think the people can undestand a platform of Economic Justice.

it's getting environmentalists, womens rights activists, poverty rights folks, etc -- to come together and form
something.

and i think people can understand being angry at 'wall street' -- forming the communication that motivates, educates and unites is what's key.

[RadiationTherapy]

36. I like the "wall street" target idea. It easily folds in to the agendas of the people you list.

What methods would you advise? I do not see street protests and occupation of a public arena as producing results here.

[xchrom]

45. you have to use all of them.

you can't disregard the effectiveness of street protests.

and i would most certainly include unions in this.

the internet, twitter, etc is of course the newest tools.

but the first thing is to generate a movement that pulls all the different left movements under one over arching economic justice platform.

[bobbolink]

50. And that is the crux of the matter.... groups can't come together now.

Environmentalists refuse to hear poor people, and how some of their proposals hurt poor people.

Animal rights people aren't able to care about two-leggeds.

Even socialists are so cemented in their rhetoric that they aren't willing to change their divisive phrase "working poor".

Etc.

All of this makes coalitions impossible, which keeps us weakened.

I like the way you think, xchron, and appreciate your posts! :yourock:

[pinto]

55. Maybe we ought to look at a quirk in our national framework as a useful fulcrum -

not the regressive tool it's often effectively been.

Federalism and the Tenth Amendment -

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

.

Most notably used and abused to limit rights, at the state level, for many segments of our society it was effective in its day until an opposing "critical mass" called for a federal response.

"States' Rights" has an ugly connotation for good reason, yet it also has this - a feasible response to stimulate federal action nationwide. Take the specific goals out of the formula and it remains, as intended, an available tool to give states a voice in shaping a national stand. Its use can be for good as well as ill.

I think we're seeing some of this in the push for marijuana decriminalization and gay rights, for example. Piece by piece, state by state we approach the goals at a national level.

I've heard of a political / cultural theory of inevitability - i.e. when approval for a certain POV on an issue gets to a certain point, it becomes inevitable across the board. The point I think is, say 20 states legalize same-sex marriage. The theory says that's the "critical mass", the rest will follow.

Didn't mean to side track the discussion, but wanted to throw in a work locally aspect. I agree with the general discussions from all - we don't seem to have a national focus, or cohesion, on change.

Interesting stuff. :hi:

[RadiationTherapy]

57. It may add some much needed diversity within our culture as well.

Care would have to be taken though. I sometimes refer to modern politics as "revenge politics"; more interested in pissing off their opponents than moving any cohesive agenda forward. This states' rights diversity "plan" would have to be carefully wielded.

[pinto]

58. "Revenge politics" is a good take, imho. It's about the gotcha point at times, not viable progress.

Agree, a state by state approach has its risks. Mainly failure, duh, or unintended consequences.

[The2ndWheel]

44. What do we do? Someone once said something about

lives of quiet desperation.

[RadiationTherapy]

54. It's the english way...