"Semantic Infiltration"

[H2O Man]

My last essay on the Democratic Underground focused on how various types of rebellions are described in the social sciences. The context, of course, was the discussions of events in Egypt; my goal was, in large part, to focus on how the corporate media's reporting can distort the American public's perception of the rebellion.

Today, I want to discuss a tactic known as “semantic infiltration.” First, a brief history: this term was coined in the early 1970s, and was used in political science to describe a tactic used in international diplomacy. It is when one uses an incorrect term to describe someone or something, with the goal of getting the adversary to use that same term while negotiating.

Initially, the term was used primary by neoconservatives, frequently in regard to negotiations with the Soviet Union. In the 1980s, for example, the Reagan administration was concerned about the use of the term “freedom fighters” to describe various revolutionary forces in Central America. The neoconservative influences in and around the administration were intent upon defining those revolutionaries in a negative manner to counter the perception that they were “freedom fighters.” Thus, President Reagan called the “contras” the moral equivalent of our “Founding Fathers.”

As I detailed years ago on this forum, there are groups contracted by neoconservative interests in the United States to engage in “perception management.” This is generally a form of “semantic infiltration” that uses words and images to sway the way that the public views national and international events. A classic example of this took place during the reign of Bush the Elder, when a “perception management” outfit distributed hundreds of small American flags to crowds in Kuwait, just before the news cameras rolled.

A similar campaign appears to be underway today. Despite the fact that the citizens in Egypt are attempting to remove a dictator; that much of their activities have been organized by school teachers; that they are taking open steps to discourage violence; that the limited violence that has taken place has been attributed to police officers; and that the relationship between the citizens and military appears positive, there are people in the media attempting to inject the American public with a fear of the “Muslim Brotherhood” somehow controlling the revolution – with an ultimate goal of attacking Israel and the United States.

We even see people on internet discussion forums promoting fear of the “Muslim Brotherhood.” I'm not saying that they are all neoconservative operatives, seeking to fool us. Most are no doubt as innocent as the poor folks on Michael Moore's film “Fahrenheit 9/11,” worried that those crafty Muslims are getting ready to attack the local Wal Mart.

I'm encouraged that it is being reported that one of the major influences on those brave people in Egypt is a story about the Civil Rights campaign in Montgomery. Of course, we remember that Martin Luther King, Jr., and his associates were demonized as “communists” in those days. Some things never change. But others do, and when we hear that the Egyptian people are marching in the spirit of Martin Luther King, we can be confident that they are determined to achieve positive change.

Peace,
H2O Man

[Karenina]

1. . .

[H2O Man]

2. Thank you.

[Jack Rabbit]

3. K/R

"Perception management" is just a tool in the propagandist's trade and can be used by any occupational liar. Another word for it, as least in a narrower sense, is spin. I can't help but to recall how NBC during the 2004 presidential debates gave time to Karen Hughes and Mike McCurry for some analysis. Either one of them could have mailed in their remarks. Whatever NBC paid those two, it was a a waste of money.

[H2O Man]

14. True, that.

Lots of "New! And Improved!" commercials on television ape the same generaltactic.

[Octafish]

4. Our King

A couple of years after Apartheid, "Fish Out of Water," a choral group from South Africa set up a residency at Wayne State University in Detroit. The voices were wonderful -- young adults of all races, singing together.

During their remarkable performance for Black History Month, one young man implored the crowd to "Remember your King! Remember your King!"

Afterward, during the Q&A, we learned he wasn't talking about Jesus. He was talking about Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and how his life and example of non-violent opposition to evil kept them focused on change and peace during the the most difficult times.

Words!

[H2O Man]

27. You know it!

Discussed this with Rubin recently. When he was young, he thought Malcolm was right, and that King's tactics involved weakness. Today, he knows that Martin channeled the greatest of strengths.

[bemildred]

5. Aw, you are interfering with the daily "two minutes of hate".

:thumbsup::applause:

[slackmaster]

6. What you did there...

...I see it.

[leftstreet]

7. kick this, I will

K&R

[Nuclear Unicorn]

8. So why are fears of the MB unfounded?

Are they not as well-organized as we have been lead to believe?

Do they lack the raw power to subvert honest reform?

You sort of say, "What, me worry?" and leave it at that.

[H2O Man]

13. I'm not able

to help you on that one; I have not, since my teen years allowed myself to be "lead to believe" anything. In terms of the Muslim Brotherhood, for example, there is plenty of information for anyone interested to read, assess, and make up their own mind.

I have no idea where your "What, me worry?" stuff is coming from. Perhaps not worrying is an attribute of reaching one's own conclusion, while worrying is a result of being lead. I am curious, though, if those worried today were worried for 30 years of dictatorship in Egypt? Do dictatorships sooth some folks worries?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

17. Rejecting the MB is not an endorsement of Mubarak.

Anymore than one can claim to want to be rid of a dictatorship but passively acquiesce to the MB.

Then you say,

there is plenty of information for anyone interested to read, assess, and make up their own mind

But then you say,

worrying is a result of being lead

Sorry, but that sounds like so much double-speak. Reading information provided by others is being lead.

Should I worry about being lead because you lead me to worrying about it?

From what I've read the MB could go either way. They've had a really, REALLY questionable past but have been fairly pro-democracy since 2005. Maybe I'm skittish but I cannot imagine DU being so blase were an organization named "The Christian Brotherhood" was leading efforts to depose an American president.

I asked for info from you hoping you had insights but simply overlooked including them in the OP.

[bemildred]

19. So you don't want to educate yourself. you want somebody else to do it for you?

The MB was incidental to the OP, which was about propaganda techniques. If you want to know more about MB, you need to do the work yourself.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

21. See, this is exactly the nonsense I was addressing

You might as well be saying, "only accept proper measurements but go find your own measuring stick."

Valueless statements have no value.

How can you tell people to avoid propaganda but find their own truth? Either we deal with objective statements that can be deemed true/false or there is no such thing as "propaganda" in the pejorative sense.

It is also a propaganda technique to run around telling people, "trust no one!" because it usually implies, "except me." Which is dubious to say the least but fairmindedness says to give them a fair hearing. So whenever someone runs around saying "trust no one" I prefer to ask, "Why?"

Asking for someone's insight is not a refusal to educate ones self, it is a request for someone's insight. In a place where people come for no reason except to offer their opinions and insights the sudden fondness for silence seems curious.

[bemildred]

28. Hey, if you want to be a sheep, go for it. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

31. The only sheep are those who say

"Yes, they're bastards but at least they're OUR bastards.'

When did accepting Nazi collaborators become a progressive trait?

[bemildred]

38. There are lots of sheep, you are right in the middle of the flock. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

49. No, ewe!

I swear you must be one of those paid disruptors some people claim are infiltrating the forum to discredit progressives as nonsensical ideologues with nothing to say, just rants and name-calling.

What is your deal with the MB anyway? You got a thing for theocrats or are you just some knee-jerk anti-establishment sort?

[bemildred]

50. You are not allowed to call other posters disruptors. nt

[H2O Man]

25. Your first sentence

in this post makes no sense at all. And I am trying to understand what your point is.

My point in regard to this is this: the choices the people of Egypt are making are not limited to a dictator or the Muslim Brotherhood (or, at least, what you believe the MB to be). Hence, my OP was focusing on efforts being made in America to pretend these are the only two choices.

I could write at length about either that particular dictator, ones like him, the Muslim Brotherhood, or groups similar to them. Should I see a reason to, I will. But far more important than that is focusing on what is a far more serious issue, in the context of discussions in the United States, about how events/dynamics in Egypt are being presented.

There are numerous resources available on the Muslim Brotherhood. That the group was extremist in earlier times is beyond debate. What they are today is a matter of interpretation. I tend to think that they are, at least, prone to more extreme positions than the other segments of their society. If the US respects the people of Egypt, and honors their demand for a democratic society, the MB will be one group advocating some positions, within a larger collection of groups. A democratic Egypt would be as capable of dealing with them, as any democracy.

In the US, for example, one can hold extremist views. And advocate for extreme positions.But if one takes extremist actions that violate the laws, society deals with that by way of a judicial system. I think people in Egypt are as capable of dealing with this, as any people.

It can only be "dangerous" if the US refuses to respect and recognize the will of the people of Egypt that extremism can take further root, and pose any potential problem. That can and should be avoided. Hence, my OP focuses on the lies that could confuse people, when listening to the corporate media reporting on events in Egypt.

[JDPriestly]

33. Extremism is attractive to people who are frustrated with the

status quo, seeking an organizational vehicle to express their frustration and find no nonviolent alternative that they can see as potentially effective. That's my opinion.

The Muslim Brotherhood may actually lose power if there is a successful transition to democratic institutions in Egypt. It all depends on what happens. Establishing democratic institutions is the crucial issue in all countries.

But the area in which we are all having trouble is establishing institutions that discourage corruption. That was Teddy Roosevelt's big concern. But since Reagan, Republicans and conservative Democrats have even dismantled the idea of civil service. No system lends itself to corruption like privatization.

I hope I am not getting too off topic with this post, but, while Martin Luther King set the example for peaceful revolution, unfortunately, we never learned how he would have handled institutional power and authority. It is the transition from revolution, even peaceful revolution, to government that is so very difficult. That transition is certainly easier when change is nonviolent. But it is still difficult. That is the next hurdle in Egypt, and it is the really big one.

If the Egyptian people successfully make that transition, the Muslim Brotherhood will recede into the background in my opinion.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

37. Hear! Hear! n/t

[bemildred]

39. Yah.

:thumbsup:

[H2O Man]

42. Exactly right.

Extremely well said. Thank you for adding this.

I'm reminded of President Kennedy's saying that those who make nonviolent revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable. The only danger in Egypt is posed by those puppets who follow the commands of an aging, completely out of touch, dictator. His greed for power has the potential to cause violence on a large scale, only to the extent that others allow him to dictate their thinking and actions.

This is entirely themeaning of my response to our confused and angry friend on this thread. Think for yourself. Don't let any dictator, journalist, or even some member of this forum, think for you. Don't act because someone else tells you to. Be a responsible human being.

[chervilant]

62. hmm...

Another way this situation can become dangerous for these brave activists is if (or, should I say when?) the disaster capitalists infiltrate to rape Egypt's economy--just as they've done in the Southern Cone, Bolivia, South Africa, Russia, Thailand, and many other places.

Radical income inequity is our oppression du jour! Defanging the corporate megalomaniacs is the greatest challenge we face.

[sabrina 1]

63. Why are you skittish?

What business is it of ours if a country we do not own, (although I know most Americans believe we rule the world, you should try telling that to people once you leave U.S. borders :eyes:) elects whoever they think best represents them?

Let's say the MB runs for office in the next elections, and the electons, unlike the Mubarak elections, are clean and they win a few seats at the political table. Is that our concern? And if so, why?

Have you ever asked yourself why the U.S. has been influencing the elections in every country in the world (see Wikileaks cables)? Do you know that it is this assumption that we had a right to do so that has made us the most hated country in many parts of the world? By the people, I mean, not the governments, the dictators and warmongers we helped to install?

Personally I feel that if the Egyptions choose to elect the MB, it is their business so long as they do not declare war on the U.S., which I doubt would happen. It's more like that we would be the warmongers.

Why don't we just leave everyone else alone, mind our own business, which badly needs minding, and start asking ourselves why we, the people, have been so silent about our government's support for every, brutal dictator in the world. And who profits from that?

We don't own Egypt anymore. We never should have, we have contributed to untold misery inflicted on millions of Egyptians by our propping up of their dictator. It is THEY who should be worried about who WE elect. We need to get a grip in this country and disabuse ourselves of the idea we have any right to try to influence any other country in the world. This one is in dire need of attention right now.

[scarletwoman]

22. Why don't you take your cue from the Egyptian people in the streets calling for democracy?

The MB doesn't worry them, they're just part of the plurality in Egyptian society.

Egypt isn't some backwater tribalist society, these are educated and literate people, heirs to one of the oldest civilizations in the world. Trust them to direct their own affairs, trust them to know what they want.

The Muslim Brotherhood isn't Al Qeada, they're not the Taliban, they're not Wahabis.

The Western media propaganda machine WANTS you to be afraid of them, WANTS you believe that they are dangerous. So does the dictatorial Mubarak regime. You don't have to buy into it, the Egyptian people out on the streets aren't afraid of them -- why not trust THEM? Would you rather trust the corporate MSM and the Mubarak regime?

sw

[Nuclear Unicorn]

24. Germans, Chinese and Russians are pretty educated too

But their respective societies ushered in some of the most heinous and brutal tyrannies of the 20th century.

Ditto Iran, a very educated and refined society, now gripped by theocratic dictators.

So the relative education level of the population doesn't seem to be a determining factor in who kills their way into power. Educated people can be oppressed too.

The MB have not been good voices for freedom:

By 1936, it had 800 members, then this number increased greatly to up to 200,000 by 1938. By 1948, the Brotherhood had about half a million members. Robin Hallett says: "By the late 1940s the Brotherhood was reckoned to have as many as 2 million members, while its strong Pan-Islamic ideas had gained its supporters in other Arab lands".<32> The Muslim Brotherhood also tried to build up something like an Islamist International, thus founding groups in Lebanon (in 1936), Syria (1937), and Transjordan (1946). It also recruited among the foreign students in Cairo. Its headquarters in Cairo became a center and meeting place for representatives from the whole Muslim world.<30>

Underground links to the Nazis began during the 1930s and were close during the Second World War, involving agitation against the British, espionage and sabotage, as well as support for terrorist activities orchestrated by Haj Amin el-Hussaini in British Mandate Palestine, as a wide range of declassified documents from the British, American and Nazi German governmental archives, as well as from personal accounts and memoirs from that period, confirm.<33> Reflecting this connection the Muslim Brotherhood also disseminated Hitler's Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion widely in Arab translations, helping to deepen and extend already existing hostile views about Jews and democracy in Western societies generally.<34>

...

# Newsweek journalists Mark Hosenball and Michael Isikoff reported connections between al-Qaeda and Brotherhood figures Mamoun Darkazanli and Youssef Nada.<93>

# A similar article in the Financial Times reported financial links between 74-year-old Swiss Muslim convert, and businessman Ahmed Huber, and members of the Muslim Brotherhood, notably Youssef Nada, Ali Ghaleb Himmat. According to the U.S. government, Al Taqwa "has long acted as financial advisers to al-Qaeda." Huber is noted in Europe for his links with alleged neo-Nazi and other far right elements.<94><95> He is reported to have "confirmed" having "had contact with associates of Osama bin Laden at an Islamic conference in Beirut," whom he called `very discreet, well-educated, very intelligent people.`<94>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

Just educating myself.

And not really enjoying what I find.

[H2O Man]

26. I remember in 1982,

in an interview with in a national publication, Dick Gregory said that America can not understand Islam and Muslims, because America had never understood Malcolm X. Your post reminds me of that quote for a couple of reasons.

It is difficult to take a comparison of Egypt today, and Nazi Germany, very seriously. There are too many differences in the socio-economic differences to list them here. Suffice to say that it is more likely that a high level of brutality will take place in a land ruled by a dictator,than in a democracy. And that's what the people of Egypt are demanding.

I'd also note that Malcolm said if another massive example of man's inhumanity to man were to take place in any nation, it would be within the United States. It's not something that I worry about, although the growing number of smaller-scale examples here do concern me. But I do not think it is a risk in Egypt, unless their military supports the dictator.

[scarletwoman]

29. Support Mubarak, then. He'll keep you safe from the bogeymen.

No one disputes the MB's early history as a far more radical group.

But always consider the sources of the information you encounter. The Financial Times? The U.S. Government? No chance of any agendas there?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

30. Nazis and radical islamists are not bogeymen, they're facts of life.

Why should a people yearning for freedom be consigned to choosing between autocrats or radical monsters?

It seems all the MB-apologists are doing is asking the Egyptians to trade chains for shackles.

[H2O Man]

35. Attempts to connect

the Muslim Brotherhood with Nazis is a wonderful example of what my OP is about. Your repeated attempts to do so illustrates the method of "semantic infiltration" perfectly. Thank you for your contribution!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

36. You tell me to do my own research

You decline to offer anything of substance.

You tell us to make up our own minds no matter what anyone tells us (presumably, including you).

And then you complain, not that the evidence is unsupported by facts or history, but merely that I found it.

No counterpoints. No refutations. No matters of substance. I'm supposed to just take your word to pay no attention to that man behind the curtain; the one with the swastika on his arm.

THAT'S semantics/propaganda/rhetoric/sophistry. Was the OP really advice or was it a confession?

[bemildred]

40. Babble, babble, babble.

Can you present some sort of coherent argument, or do you just whine?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

45. LOL

My argument is this:

1. the OP is a valueless statement

1a. doing one's own research is hardly new advice

1b. admonitions to "avoid being lead" are self-contradicting as they seek to lead the reader.

1c. admonitions to "avoid being lead" is just a rhetorical device for setting the stage to discount any evidence presented against the author without actual rebuttal. The evidence will be dismissed under the dodge that the presenter "has been lead". It is a reprise of Point 1b. wherein the author seeks to lead the audience to a pre-determined conclusion, not an actual hearing of the objective evidence.

1d. valueless statements are dangerous. It is all well and good that a autocrat is compelled to abdicate but if an autocrat is replaced by a totalitarian than the cause of freedom and peace have not been served. In other words, the purpose/quality/value of the revolution is what matters.



With Point 1d. being established I move to:

2. doing my own research the MB are not the kind of organization a civil, peaceful society would want at its helm

2a. The MB has a long history of vile associations

2b. the MB continues to support the deliberate murder of civilians

2c. no evidence to the contrary has been presented


So do you have anything objective, testable, falsifiable statements to make or are you just going to type louder?

[bemildred]

48. You show a certain lack of a sense of irony in point 1d.

The sort of irony you point out WRT the OP in point 1b.

But at least it is clear now that it is MB you are hot about. That's OK, you don't have to like MB. But the OP is not about MB, MB is merely and example in the OP, an example of something we are supposed to be afraid of. And you do seem to be in agreement with that sentiment, so I suppose it is no surprise you don't like the OP, because of that example. But the OP is still not about the example.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

51. But the MB are bad actors and they are a prominent influence in Egypt

The brownshirts were a joke in the Weimar Republic but they agitated enough to assume power. We cannot say, "it won't happen" because history shows it can happen; and it has happened more than once.

That some jackass on FOX News (not that one in particular has been mention, I'm just painting a picture) would sound warnings about the MB would be immaterial to the fact the MB are bad actors and not in the best interest of freedom and reform. Winston Churchill was pretty RW but he was dead on target about Hitler even as those around him told him he was overreacting.

Would there be any harm in quietly suggesting that the ascension of the MB means the end to US military aid and whatever other hints we may drop? Is there any harm in working for the removal of Mubarak while keeping an eye peeled for a true reformer?

What we are watching is not a bunch of kids playing spin the bottle to see who they go to the prom with, it is about who controls the instruments of power, i.e. police, intelligence services, military, foreign relations etc.

Acquiescing responsibility to our pricinples in the name of expediency is not only self-defeating but it is a major part of the reason the Middle East is as jacked-up as it is today. Skinner's server ain't big enough to hold a full retelling of the realpolitik that carved up the Middle East in the name of staving off the USSR. Too many people died and too many nations were plunged into ethnic chaos and oppression in the name of the bastards being our bastards.

Why would we as progressives for an instance even entertain the thought of following in the very footsteps of those we claim to condemn for selling out our principles?

Let's not be those guys!

[bemildred]

53. I'll keep my guard up. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

54. The MB, while indeed a religious organization with a theocratic view

is and has been for its entire history a proponent of non-violent reform and an advocate for the establishment of democratic institutions in the morass of middle-eastern thuggerys. Perhaps you were thinking of some other organization? Perhaps one of the MB splinter groups that left because they could not abide the MB's policies of non violence?

Democracy is messy and unpleasant. It holds the possibility that people you don't like who advocate policies you disagree with will rise to power and implement those policies.

[H2O Man]

41. Actually,

I haven't complained about anything here. Just the opposite: I'm amused. Thus, that "complain(ing)" exists only in your mind. No where else.

You are correct in saying that I advocate people doing their own research, their own thinking, and reaching their own conclusions. Anyone who would believe or disbelieve something, based merely on what I think or say, hasn't really understood much of what I actually do say. For any time a person in our society allows others to do their thinking for them, they have betrayed not only themselves, but everyone around them.

The swastika bit that you continue to try -- unsuccessfully, by any measure -- to insert also exists only in your mind. It has nothing to do with events in Egypt. It has nothing to do with the OP. It has nothing to do with the rational discussion in the thread. It's just in your head, and that's why no one here can help you with that. You own it.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

47. It has everything to do with who plays a role in shaping Egyptian society

once Mubarak leaves.

That any organization that actively collaborated with the Nazis could be entertained as a legitimate voice by people calling themselves progressives is mind-boggling.

When did progressive start looking at Nazi collaborators and saying, "Yes, but..."

I would like to think that Mubarak can be shown the door with as little bloodshed as possible as quickly as is possible and in his place will be a civil society that places law and freedom above religion/party/gender etc.

It's sounds crazy but I guess I'm crazy.

[H2O Man]

52. I'm not aware of

a single progressive, including any on this forum, who is advocating for the MB. I've read very few OP/threads with much discussion of the MB, and in those few that do, it is almost exclusively those who want to raise fear of the democratic movement in Egypt.

There are, of course, people who will seek to capitalize on the confusion in Egypt, to promote a hateful and violent agenda. We have similar groups and individuals here in the USA. I am as opposed to these forces as much as anyone. I've had family members and friends brutalized, seriously injured, and murdered, by hateful people who believe they have the right to harm "others" -- those with a different shade of skin color, a different sexuality, and/or a different religion. I've confronted hatred in my life time .... both external and internal.

I do not advocate assisting any violent, hateful people in reaching a position fromwhich they can threaten others' safety and well-being. Not in my neighborhood, state, country, or anywhere on earth. However, with the exception of those who simply must be incarcerated due to violence, I believe that it is important to integrate even those people I find offensive and obnoxious, ignorant and even just plain old stupid, into the larger society -- not inthe sense that promotes their negative qualities, but rather, that presents the possibility of reducing and/or eliminating any threat they pose.

No matter who is in power in Egypt, there are individuals who identify themselves as being part of the Muslim Brotherhood. Thus, if one believes that they pose a danger, the best alternative would be to find a way to reduce and/or eliminate that danger. I hope that we would both agree with Albert Einstein's statement that "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." The hatred and fear that creates violent extremists cannot be solved with more hatred, fear, and violence.

In this culture, that very thought is considered "crazy," "weak," and "unrealistic." I suppose that many people, after doing their own research and analysis, view me as all three. That's fine.

I recently wrote an OP about the contradiction of being a individual and a tiny particle of the Whole, at the same time. I understand both how, and why, people view themselves as being a democrat, a republican; an American, a European, and African; a Christian, Muslim, Jew, atheist; and on and on and on. I understand both how and why, in large part because I used to identify myself in some of those same ways. But I do not today .... I am an individualand a tiny part of the Whole: hence, as my father used to say, "Think for yourself, act for others."

[Hestia]

58. One place you could find some of the answers you are looking for is to live stream Al Jazeera.

They have wonderful commentators who addressed the very issue with the MB, one being that only the US and other western countries were talking ( all a'skeered) about the MB, not the Egyptians themselves. Go watch, better commentary on issues that anything coming from our side. http://english.aljazeera.net look for the live stream link.

[WestSeattle2]

61. They do not have the level of influence that some may imply

they have. Egyptians are well educated, which makes it much more difficult for religious fanaticism to gain a foot hold.

The MB in Egypt is nowhere near being what Al Queda is in Afghanistan; more like what the KKK is in the United States.

[Leithan]

9. Stop being Anti-Semantic!

K&R

[H2O Man]

43. Bad. Very bad!

Really extra very bad. But kind of funny, darned you.

[Odin2005]

10. Thanks! The RW memes need to be beaten down forcefully.

[Agony]

11. freedom fighters, huh?

Cheers!

[myrna minx]

12. K&R - I remember when the Bushies were trying to change the term "suicide bombers"

to "homicide bombers" and for some reason the eager to please media didn't play along with that one.

Thank you for this essay.

[H2O Man]

44. Right!

There were even pathetic attempts to rename "French fries" to "Freedom fries." As you accurately note, not everyone who attempts to practice this tactic has even a drop of talent or imagination.

[malaise]

15. Excellent post

They have perfected their tactics, but the problem is that their own words versus actions have been thoroughly exposed to the point that the neo-cons are openly speaking against democracy now.

[niyad]

16. k and r--I don't listen to the msm, but not surprised at what they are doing.

[some guy]

18. thanks.

It's nice to have labels for things.

"Semantic infiltration" - I like that term, though I dislike its effect in the world.

[stevedeshazer]

20. +1

Thanks, Sir. May I have another?

:)

[scarletwoman]

23. Wonderful! k&r!

Of course, we remember that Martin Luther King, Jr., and his associates were demonized as “communists” in those days.

And "terrorist" is the new "communist".

sw

[JDPriestly]

32. Thanks, H2O Man. As times get tougher, it is more and more important

to remember that nonviolence is the best way to achieve change.

[sam sarrha]

34. it is still a 'Wait and See' what happens as a result of Egypts. new freedom. because we do not know

whether this is run by the Mullahs.. Egypt is under Sharia law.. that is a big variable.

if this event is run my the religious leaders to grab power, it is out of the fry'n pan into the fire

[Uncle Joe]

46. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, H2O Man.

[molly77]

55. Egypt is demonstrating to the rest of the world

The best way to topple a government. They are my teachers now.

Singing to the guys in the tanks and giving them flowers. Picking up trash.

When Israel expresses it's reservations about unrest if the current regime is overthrown...the actions of the protesters tell a new story. The old paradigm does not work anymore.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. When they mentioned MLK

I went... you got to be shitting me... a few, perhaps.

But most of the people in Egypt have their own local heroes, thank you very much.

This is a very colonial atitude.

[H2O Man]

59. The leaders of

the protest had reportedly imported a large number of issues of a small book on Montgomery. That's a good thing. King was not limited to the problems in the United States. And people such as Jesus and Gandhi were primary influences on him. All represent anti-colonial thinking.

[Blue_Tires]

57. ttt

[saras]

60. To get off the MB debate and back to semantic infiltration...

Austerity.

National security.

Terrorism.

Extremist.

[mmonk]

64. The fact they call Mubarek president and any elected presidencies

in Latin America that have a leftward bent are called dictators or strongmen is a dead give away.