Michigan school district to allow Sikh students to wear religious daggers to school

[RamboLiberal]

A school district in Michigan says it's okay for kids to bring daggers to school - but there are a few rules.

The first rule is you have to be baptized as a Sikh.

The decision by the Plymouth-Canton School District was put into effect on Monday, reversing a ban established in December, when a fourth-grade student brought a three- to five-inch weapon to Bentley Elementary School.

The kirpan, which can be a dagger or a sword, must be worn by baptized Sikhs at all times.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/02/01/2011-02-01_michigan_school_district_allows_students_to_wear_daggers_to_class.html

The kirpan represents a commitment to fight evil in the Sikh tradition. The dagger is a religious symbol that baptized Sikh males are expected to carry.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/02/01/michigan-school-district-allows-sikh-students-wear-religious-dagger-school/?test=latestnews

"While our school district is committed to providing a safe learning environment for all of our students, we must also balance the rights of students to express and practice their religion. In light of the strict scrutiny standard applied by Michigan courts in determining whether an individual's right to freely exercise his or her religion has been violated, the district will amend its blanket restriction against wearing the kirpan in school," according to a note the district sent to parents on Friday.

School district officials met Sunday with the Sikh community at a gurdwara, a Sikh religion center, in Canton. They listened to the community's concerns and learned about the Sikh faith, said district spokesman Frank Ruggirello Jr.

Earlier, the district had received letters from three national Sikh groups expressing their concerns about any ban on kirpans.

Regarding the school's policy, Ruggirello said: "I'm confident we got a good plan for the community ... I think we found a happy medium."

http://www.freep.com/article/20110201/NEWS02/102010408/Plymouth-Canton-school-district-says-religious-dagger-OK



Excuse me, I'm all for religious freedom but this is nuts IMHO. I'd bet the TSA wouldn't allow on planes and you wouldn't be allowed in a number of government buildings. But let a student accidentally bring a knife to cut an apple and you can be out for days, weeks, even year(s).

And I wonder what would happen if some fundy religion decided a holstered handgun was required in their religion. You know we do have some fundy pastors having bring your gun to church day. :sarcasm:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

1. Special treatment based on religious grounds

is a huge problem...Arpit has a knife, so I should be able to as well.

sP

[Cid_B]

10. I have no problem with the kids carrying knives...

I have a problem with the ban for everyone else. No way this is legal.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

11. We carried knives (less than three inch lock-blade)

when I was in school...never caused a problem. Not everyone had one, but us rednecks carried one...and though I am not certain, I do not think 'redneck' is a certified religion.

sP

[RamboLiberal]

15. My objection is they go zero tolerance on everyone else

for innocent mistakes.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

20. Yes, it is always fun to see an honor student with a flawless record

getting suspended or expelled for bringing a butter knife to school to cut a cake that he made for his teacher...

sP

[TheWraith]

47. I agree completely--plus there's other serious problems with their rules.

Completely aside from equal treatment issues: how do you tell if someone is baptized a Sikh? Does anyone and everyone get to carry a knife if they say they are? Who decides? Who handles the appeals on that decision?

Are all religions equal here? How about all rules? Do they make exceptions if, say, native Americans want to spend their free period performing traditional spiritual meditations, complete with peyote? If not, isn't that a double standard, and an endorsement by the state of one religion over another?

While I appreciate the necessity of some rules for the sake of order, school administrators these days seem to view themselves almost more akin to prison wardens. Partially fueled by hysterical parents demanding some ridiculously unrealistic image of a perfect school, completely alienated from the realization that imperfect schools have been doing fine for generations.

[Wilber_Stool]

31. My father let me buy

my fist knife when I was 10. I've had one in my pocket ever since.
I am not now, or have I ever been a red neck.

ps: If I'm not mistaken, if a Sikh draws his knife, it can't be sheathed until it has drawn blood.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

36. Redneck is used with all love and affection as I are one...

and I think maybe you are confusing Sikhs with Samurai??? ;-)

sP

[denverbill]

2. Yes this is an idiotic decision.

If their religion requires them to carry a knife, then homeschooling may be their only option, or church schooling.

[Generic Other]

3. Another good reason to keep religion out of public schools

Ban all religious symbols and acts. Crosses, switchblades, veils, prayer, self-immolation during gym class, sacrificing goats in home ec...

[SoCalDem]

16. amen.. if you are a holy-roller sikh, educate your kids at home where they can wear their weapons

PUBLIC school should be totally SECULAR, where NO religious icons, tokens, relics, symbols, whatevers are allowed.

[RamboLiberal]

21. Well ones that aren't weapons

I have no problem otherwise with religious dress or other symbols but with some things there should be a line.

[X_Digger]

26. PUBLIC school is PUBLIC.. as such, they don't get to decide which religions

and which religious articles are acceptable.

Repeal the first amendment if you really want that ability.

[SoCalDem]

28. and that's precisely why NO religious artifacts should be part of the PUBLIC school day

no one is telling hyper-religious kids that they cannot BE "whatever faith "..just keep it at home & in church/cathedral/chapel/temple/synagogue/mosque/shrine/wherever.

There are plenty of religious schools where hyper-religious kids can do both..

[X_Digger]

30. Free Exercise Clause.

Start a petition to repeal it, if you feel that strongly about it.

I'm an agnostic bordering on atheism (which I also consider a 'belief') but I have friends who are Sikh, Bahai'i, and Jainist.

As long as we protect the free exercise of religion based on the constitution, we can't make decisions about what those who do practice wear in public.

[WinkyDink]

58. Guess what? Freedom of speech is curbed in a public school.

[X_Digger]

62. Court precedent favors the Sikhs- CHEEMA v THOMPSON n/t

[bluestateguy]

4. Delete (didn't go through)

[FSogol]

5. I remember this issue in a school system in the 80s. The compromise was

that the symbolic knife (for school use) was glued into its scabbard. Problem solved. Reasonable people can find compromises. The religious among us should get to exercise their freedoms.

[RamboLiberal]

7. And what do male Sikh's do when they fly?

I bet TSA doesn't allow.

[FSogol]

8. They probably have a tiny wooden version. Its intent is symbolic. n/t

[RamboLiberal]

13. It's not wooden

Oops on edit didn't see you were talking about TSA.

The school's rules:

Any kirpan worn at school should be sewn inside a sheath in such a way that the blade cannot be removed from the sheath.

• The blade of the kirpan is restricted to no more than 2 1/4 inches. This would take the object outside the scope of the Revised School Code's definition of a knife constituting a dangerous weapon.

• The blade of the kirpan must be dull.

• The kirpan should not be worn on the outside of the clothing and should not be visible in any way.

http://www.freep.com/article/20110201/NEWS02/102010408/Plymouth-Canton-school-district-says-religious-dagger-OK

Yet we get students suspended for bringing a toy gun or forgetting there is a food knife in their lunch box or car, or a grandparent putting a knife in for cutting a cake.

TSA makes no exception for Sikhs flying and I'd bet Secret Service wouldn't at a presidential event nor would they be allowed in weapons restricted govt buildings.

[May Hamm]

27. Other kids see a knife

I don't care how dull it is. Other children see a student with a knife. They see a weapon. They see someone breaking the rules. This is wrong. You can't explain away that kind of exception.

Children are still being suspended for one inch plastic GI Joe guns. Zero tolerance. If it is a real solution then it must be ZERO TOLERANCE. It can't be zero tolerance just for people who pray to the wrong god.

[X_Digger]

33. Zero Tolerance needs to be abolished. n/t

[TheWraith]

48. Zero tolerance is another way of saying zero intelligence.

Zero tolerance says that there is absolutely no difference between the behavior of an 8 year old bringing a plastic cake knife to school for a birthday cake, and a 17 year old with a straight razor hidden in their sleeve. It says that it's okay to strip search 12 year olds who forgot they had aspirin in their backpack, because that "misdeed" is the same as selling heroin in the schoolyard.

Zero tolerance is no different from "mandatory minimum" sentencing; it's another way of looking tough, and pretending like you're accomplishing something, when the only thing you're really doing is eliminating human intelligence and critical thinking from public policy. There should be no problem with letting Sikhs carry their knives. There should also be no problem with other kids carrying pocket knives of the same sort that they could carry outside on the street. Trying to control people by drawing no distinction between unacceptable behavior and the POTENTIAL for unacceptable behavior is one of the things we most need to eradicate from society. The idea that if some kid is allowed to carry their Swiss Army knife, they're automatically going to stab someone, is equivalent to saying that if a boy is allowed to have a penis, he's automatically going to commit rape.

Schools are supposed to be for teaching critical thinking--INCLUDING the limits of what is and is not reasonable behavior, not just "It's the rules, so obey it!" Taking an authoritarian approach, trying to punish the ABILITY to misbehave instead of actual misbehavior, only encourages resistance against that authority as well as casting doubt on other, more reasonable rules, while doing nothing to stop someone with actual intent of wrongdoing.

[Erose999]

35. The comments on the Fox article are just awful. I'm gonna have to wash with bleach to clean off the

stupid that rubbed off on me while reading this crap.

< fox commenter >
attobsvr 4 minutes ago
It is time to destroy the people who run the education system in America. It is a massive failure as kids get dumber and rules become counter to common sense. Labor unions should be banned from being within a square mile of any school. School administrators must have a BS (not BA) degree in anything but education or politics. Anyone hired by a school district must reveal their IQ, their high school transcripts, their college transcripts, and all papers published! Professional educators have destroyed education!!!! How can anyone argue with such a basic fact published by all news outlets. Public schools suck! Everyone knows that private schools are the way to go, especially for grade school and high school. The news media fails the public by not revealing just how bad public schools have BECOME! The more union the less educated the kids. The people should hold the unions accountable! Sue them if your kid isn't up to par. The school district has been screwed by Democrats! So sue the Democrats who support teacher unions. Hold the unions and their supporters accountable!

< / dumbass>

< fox commenter # 2 >
ftrtbggr 45 minutes ago
We need another amendment to cover those that want us to be them.< / dumbass >

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/02/01/michigan-school-district-allows-sikh-students-wear-religious-dagger-school/#ixzz1CjubjSb7

[davidinalameda]

75. "School administrators must have a BS (not BA) degree in anything but education or politics"

that is stupid

the person who wrote that has never been to college and probably doesn't know anyone who has

:wtf:

[X_Digger]

32. Many don't fly. There are also procedures for dealing with their religious headwear..

http://sikhism.about.com/od/culture/a/Culture.htm

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. This is much the same

- small
- dull
- sewn in the sheath
- concealed

[bluestateguy]

6. These are weapons. Um no, not in in a K-12 school.

I can't even begin to list the potential problems this could create.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

51. Nonsense...less of a threat than sissors

- small
- dull
- sewn into the sheath
- required to be concealed

[sufrommich]

9. Stupid decision on Plymouth Canton's part. Those kids

should be allowed rubber or plastic knives if their religion demands it. Real knives should not be an option.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

54. If you read the artcile you would have realized it not a real knife

- small
- dull
- sewn into the sheath
- required to be concealed

[Botany]

12. Say I am into black magic can I bring a goat to sacrifice?

This has to be a joke .... a really bad idea daggers and school kids = bad idea.

[montanto]

41. Would you settle for a chicken?

A goat is like having a blade over three inches. No one would balk at a chicken, I think.

[LLStarks]

14. I don't see a problem since your average Sikh would have discipline enough to not use it. nt

[SoCalDem]

17. how does one recognize "...your average Sikh..."

:rofl:

[X_Digger]

34. The 5 K's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakars

1. Kesh – uncut hair. Sikhs believe that hair, like everything else, is a gift from God, therefore it remains uncut.
2. Kanga – a wooden comb. Used for combing the hair and keeping it tidy and in place under the turban.
3. Kara – an iron bracelet. Serves as a reminder for Sikhs to follow the morals of their faith.
4. Kachera – a specific style of cotton underwear. Reminds Sikhs of the Guru's message regarding the control of the Five Evils.
5. Kirpan – a strapped curved sword. Symbolises the safety of all and the carrier's personal duty and responsibility as a Sikh to protect the innocent in the message of peace.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[X_Digger]

42. So do away with the zero tolerance bullshit. Problem solved. n/t

[RamboLiberal]

18. I'm a concealed weapons holder

and a trained martial artist. I have discipline enough not to use my gun or my tactical knives yet I as an adult can't walk on school property armed.

[bluestateguy]

22. I agree. But other students could steal them

nt

[May Hamm]

29. Now that's just silly.

"I don't see a problem since your average Sikh would have discipline enough to not use it."

I'm really dumbfounded by your statement. How is anyone to know if this child has that sort of judgement? Or is everyone to just assume that all Sikh are wonderfully disciplined - nothing to worry about here, move along. Sorry, zero tolerance doesn't work that way.

[ElboRuum]

71. Zero tolerance doesn't work... period. n/t

[defendandprotect]

19. This is a symbol of violence, as the gun is -- and should be outlawed in schools --

[X_Digger]

37. If you understood Sikhism as much as you claim to understand 'patriarchal' religions..

You'd know how wrong that statement is.

[May Hamm]

40. That 'symbol' is seen by every other student who passes by it

What does the Sikh kid do? Spend all day chanting "it's a symbol of peace because I must only use it to protect the innocent." Oops. He can't say that because protecting the innocent with a dagger is kind of VIOLENT.

[X_Digger]

43. Did you miss this part?

As part of the compromise:

"The kirpan should not be worn on the outside of the clothing and should not be visible in any way."

[May Hamm]

74. Yes, I did.

Thanks

[MicaelS]

45. Sounds like you're practicing the religion of non-violence...

I guess your religion should be outlawed in schools, too. :sarcasm:

[eppur_se_muova]

23. If it's only a ***SYMBOL*** -- it doesn't need to be a REAL weapon.

Make it plastic, cardboard, or a line drawing, it's still a symbol. Duh.

[somone]

68. Or a simple tattoo:

[May Hamm]

24. I am so sick of religion. All religion! n/t

[X_Digger]

25. I agree with the district. Religous tolerance is better than zero tolerance.

This whole bullshit zero tolerance thing should go away. When administrators remove the ability to use judgment just to avoid liability for their choices, everyone loses.

eta: This is not the first time this has came up- http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/001206.html

[vim876]

38. I am amazed that so many here oppose this.

I'm not sure exactly what I think should be done. But whatever is done, Sikh students have the right to worship as they choose, just like everyone else. I'm not saying let the kids bring 2-foot long sharp swords to school, but an extremely dull sacramental knife? I generally oppose zero-tolerance, so take this as you will, but I'm just overwhelmed by the number of people who seem to confuse government tolerance of religion with government sponsoring religion.

[Mimosa]

46. Hmm, Vim, I know what you mean.

I wonder if carrying a rosary would be forbidden by this school district.

However, even a dull dagger is perceived as a weapon. I'm all for freedom of religion. But I can perceive this type of exception being perceived as a privilege or an exception to the anti-weapons rules. BTW, when i when to school a few kids, including myself, sometimes had those teensy pen or pocket knives. Schools were rather genteel in most places back in the late 50s. However, teasing and bullying weren't unknown.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

53. The knee jerk responses are indeed troubling

If they actually read the article and the OP had used a realistic picture, any reasonable person should have no problem with the solution arrived at.

[ElboRuum]

72. I oppose this, but not for any reasons given here.

My opposition is to the creation of any sort of special exemption for one particular group while the zero tolerance condition exists for all others.

[Odin2005]

44. Stupid. This religious crap has no place in public schools.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. It might help if the OP was not so disengenuous

The kirpans normally carried by children are nothing like the one pictured. What the school is allowing is little more than a talisman and is not a functional weapon.

[lynne]

52. So much for separation of church and state, huh??? eom

[Motown_Johnny]

56. this is a perfect example of the separation of church and state

because the state is refusing to interfere with the practices of a specific church


if they were to continue the ban that would be interfering with a religion and would violate the separation

[Cid_B]

63. Personally I think all the kids should be allowed to have knives...

I'm thinking of starting a religion that worships John Browning as it's patron saint. Wonder if my kid could bring a 1911?

[somone]

55. This is so stupid

[WinkyDink]

57. Because a Sikh would NEVER snap.

[Dappleganger]

59. This is ridiculous--no weapons means no weapons.

If you want a religious exemption for this then pay the $$$ to go to your mosque's school.

[X_Digger]

64. Err.. Sikh != Muslim. ('mosque') n/t

[Dappleganger]

66. My bad...

and I should have paid better attention. Dh has a good friend who is Sikh so I should know, argh.

BTW, I know his kids don't wear a dagger to public school.

[X_Digger]

67. Once they're baptised, they usually do..

Many women incorporate it into jewelry, so that it looks like a brooch, a hair pin, or even the buckle on their purse.

[Khan Descend]

60. All religion is sikh

so to speak.

http://www.godisimaginary.com

[lefty2000]

61. Discrimination

If an agent of the state extends a privilege to one group based on a religious test, it would appear to violate the establishment clause of the constitution. It would seem that you would have to allow all students to carry knives in order to accomodate the Sikhs. I don't think this decision will stand.

[X_Digger]

65. Not a privilege, but an exception.

Much like schools can't force Jehova's Witnesses to say the pledge of allegiance due to their religious beliefs, allowing Sikhs ot carry a kirpan is an exception to the rule against anything that could be construed as a weapon.

[Toon Me Out]

69. ok...

...i thought it was a joke, but (sigh!)

[Toon Me Out]

70. what if? NO.

What if some hypothetical, nonexistent religion dictated that one carry a festering, bacillus-encrusted shit-bucket everywhere? Now, would that be safe for the kiddies either?
NO. (i'm envisioning some kind of Teabagger religion for that example, of course.):woohoo:


:hide:

again, NO.

[Canuckistanian]

73. They're allowed in Canada

Or at least I think there was a court case that allowed them here in Ontario. The Sikh made their case that the kirpans were NEVER used for violence, just for ceremonial show. In fact, it's prohibited in the Sikh religion to actually USE them for any violent purpose, even for self-defence. It's strictly a CEREMONIAL ornament.

But Michigan? Not a whole lot of "cultural tolerance" there.

[2Design]

76. great more weaponw allowed - love how we are concerned about crime

[samsingh]

77. why don't we focus on the guns?

[toddwv]

78. I can understand the dichotomy of positions posited here.

However, they didn't redefine the rules of what constitutes a weapon to make an exception for Sikhs.

They defined what forms of kirpans do not violate the weapons rule.

A 2 1/4 dulled blade that is fixed in its sheath is not a weapon.



Personally, they said sewn in but I think glued in would be more acceptable and the kirpans should be checked regularly.

In addition, there are various forms of "kirpan" available such as a label pins or pendants.

[EFerrari]

79. Do you remember the Sikh that was murdered after 9/11

because he wore a turban?

* * *

Balbir Singh Sodhi was gunned down on Sept. 15, 2001 in Mesa, Arizona. The turban-wearing Sikh was killed outside his gas station. Sodhi's killer spent the hours before the murder in a bar, bragging of his intention to "kill the ragheads responsible for September 11." He has been convicted and sits on death row.

http://www.themediaoasis.com/hatevictims.html

[JI7]

81. there were many Sikhs who were killed after 9/11

but what has that got to do with the OP ?

[EFerrari]

82. You mean, besides playing on anti-Muslim fears?

Because that's what it does.

Catholics wear crosses but we don't run around crucifying people.

[JI7]

83. not the same thing, it would be different if they prevented them from wearing the turbin

but this was because the item could be used as a weapon.

[FreedomRain]

80. Sounds like a back door op

Make a decision that is the only one allowed by law.
Get the people angry about MUSLIMS HAVING DAGGERS AT SCHOOL BECUZ OF STUPID LEBRULS
Ignore that they are less lethal than a can of soda.

One more contribution to getting people to hate Public Schools and vote for charters. That's more state education money in your friends pockets..