No Job, Your Fault, Not Educated

[liberalmike27]

This whole idea to me is just a way they've figured out to blame people who lack jobs for their unemployed status. While there may be a few jobs out there unfilled due to lack of people with degrees, this is just a way to blame people, and pander to the entrenched system of paying a few so much more than the rest of us.

So say we all have degrees, in a nice variety of fields, to the percentage we need, doctors,nurses, engineers, philosophers, teachers. Does that mean we're no longer going to have garbage men, fast food workers, or lawn-services? No. It'll just be a bunch of folks with degrees, who are working in menial jobs, and I'm sure we've already got a lot of those anyway.

So I'm inclined to agree with the new paradigm below. We need a government that is trying to keep a certain social contract of full-employment, American jobs at least to the extent of full-employment, a living-wage, and conditions that will help us all to thrive. Helping the world is secondary to the strict idea of simply defense.

Don't get me wrong--I'd love the idea of everyone getting as much education as possible, as it'd make a lot of things better. Imagine those idiots watching Beck for a minute, having actual history courses under their belt, and dismissing him in under 2 minutes as a know-nothing quack. The conversations on the dump truck would be much better. Poor kids with great educations would be able to compete a little better.

Nepotism is no small reason republicans and wealth are trying to weaken educational abilities in our country either. They know, as my whole point states, that there are limited jobs out there. If we all had full-educations to the extent we could cope with, we'd have everyone competing for these jobs. So their kids wouldn't necessarily just be handed the job because their daddy put in a good word, when there would be hundreds of new candidates out there. Keeping education unavailable, makes for a most stultified society, where people can't move up,can't jump classes as often.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

[Ken Burch]

1. Would you mind putting your thread title in quotation marks or something?

I get what you're saying, but as written, the title makes it look like you AGREE with that horrible sentiment.

[liberalmike27]

24. Flamed your anger a bit, eh?

Perhaps I had intended to do that, as it makes me angry that they are implying that we've somehow failed because we're not "educated." It's just so much BS, and I wanted to convey that message.

They just look for one thing or another to try to get us to feel bad about ourselves, accept our lowly plight in life.

[truedelphi]

2. For two years I was a member of the American Chemical Society and read their journals

Every month. (Summer 2005 to Winter 2006)

One of the astounding things I learned by reading the journal was about the huge numbers of people who had not only one but two Master Degrees, or PhD's, and their jobs had been sent over to Singapore, or Hong Kong or else where in the Far East.

They couldn't get their own children to buckle down and study, because when a teenager sees mom and dad both struggling to re-enter the job market, after years spent getting a degree, and then fifteen years on the job, with the job in the end going over to Asia, what is the point?

In fact, we are fast becoming a society wherein the only jobs available, other than lobbyists, politicians and government stooge, are jobs like garbage man, and delivery person. But when the nation is bankrupt, even those positions will go belly up, too.

[FreakinDJ]

8. Multiple degrees has become the New Norm

I have 1 degree and several Certificate Programs

[girl gone mad]

17. Here is an in depth article on the severe shortage of jobs for scientists and engineers..

in America.

http://www.miller-mccune.com/science/the-real-science-gap-16191/

This absolutely mirrors my personal experience.

A friend of mine works at LHC (eta: not the US, but employs US scientists) and was recently telling me about the applications she received for a fairly low paying, low prestige postdoc position she was overseeing hiring on. There was an enormous amount of desperation there, and I don't envy her having to choose one from the dozens of way overqualified candidates.

[pitohui]

33. everybody thought going into a tech field would make them rich or at least make them employed

everybody was wrong

there are too many smart, educated, highly qualified people already, there are 7 billion people in this world, and there isn't 7 billion people worth of jobs that need doing

in the 1980s everybody thought an MBA/business degree would save them and now that's just a waste of paper

education is about job subsidies/support for educators and fuck the rest of us, they sell a product that is bogus and you don't get your money back when you find out you earn no more than if you'd quit after high school -- tens, sometimes hundreds of dollars, given away to con artists really

[pitohui]

32. petroleum industry the same way

get all the degrees you like, there are only so many jobs, and those jobs will go to the well-connected first

[emulatorloo]

3. Interesting post.

I often think that part of what drives Republicans don't like education because education can lead to critical thinking. Basically the ability to see thru what the Republicans say in order to get elected.

You are going to get misinterpreted. Many on DU are trying to claim that is Obama's position is "No Job, Your Fault, Not Educated". by selectively quoting the SOTU

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[abq e streeter]

4. 20 years of schoolin' and they put you on the day shift...look out kid, they keep it all hid

Somebody saw it coming 45 years ago...

[livetohike]

7. Good one

:toast:

[Le Taz Hot]

52. +1

:toast: to Mr. Zimmerman

[Fuddnik]

5. I know Phd's who are delivering pizza's right now.

Others with advanced degrees looking for wait and bartending jobs.

[SOS]

57. From the Simpsons:

Lisa Simpson is trying to convince Nelson Muntz to stay in school:

"Nelson, you can't drop out! Don't you know that dropouts earn 3% less than college graduates?"

[gratuitous]

6. Why didn't you choose to be born rich?

That worked out real well for Paris Hilton and George W. Bush. You can hardly hold the GOP responsible for your poor choice of parents.

[rox63]

9. There are plenty of people with degrees who are out of work

And plenty of others who can't get a job in the fields they have degrees in.

[hfojvt]

14. I looked up stats on that too

the unemployment rate is only 4.8% for college graduates and 9.4% for the general population.

That still does leave a lot of college graduates out on the street.

[prolesunited]

15. How about the stats for 45 and older?

Or out of the workforce for 6 months or more?

Degree or not, there is an entrenched sector of unemployed Americans. What are they supposed to do?

[hfojvt]

21. wow - the state of the union there is incredibly bad

the number of people unemployed for 27 weeks or more is down from its peak of 6.7 million in June 2010, but in December it was still 6.4 million - higher than last December when it was 6.1 million and of course, far, far higher than the 676,000 it was when Bush first took office. Even in the height of the Reagan recession in 2003, the number was only 2.9 million.

And now it is still 6.4 million.

The average number of weeks unemployed is as high as it has ever been at 34.2 weeks up from the 29.3 weeks it was last year and way up from the 12.7 weeks it was in 2001 when Bush took office.

Okay, now I see it was 34.8 in June, but them it went down to 33.4 in September and now is going back up.

I don't see any data for people 45 and older.

[treestar]

30. What are they?

Those over 45 still have the degree and still fall into the degree category.

[liberalmike27]

29. Yea

And I'd also ask if they are employed in the field of their choice, as well as fully employed.

[Iris]

34. what does "field of their choice" even mean?

I have a BA in English and have worked in education, banking, publishing, and marketing. I also have a master's in library science and am currently a librarian, but if I weren't working in "my field," I'd have no objection to using my skills or learning new ones in some other field.

[liberalmike27]

39. Well

I'd say if you're an engineer, and you are flipping burgers or installing toilets, then you probably aren't doing your chosen work.

English, well you tell me. What did you intend to do, teach English? If you did, then maybe you aren't. If you intended to be a librarian, then there is that.

Clearly the liberal arts are a little ill-defined as to what exactly you wanted to do, like a degree in Philosophy, for instance.

But what did you have in mind?

It is a bit easier in technical fields. If you took computer programming, and you are writing programs, then you are in your field.

I agree though, it's a little hard to say, exactly with some things. Clearly from the 60s and 70s, when I went through high school, to now, we've got far less opportunities in the liberal arts, as art has been kind of squeezed out of society, diminished in status, or worth. That sucks too. I think it is way more essential to a functioning society than convention these days say it is.

[Iris]

40. In the 60s and 70s, liberal arts majors were hired by companies and trained

Companies like college graduates with liberal arts degrees because they knew they could learn. For some reason, these days Corporate America thinks colleges and universities work for THEM and they shouldn't have to train people the hire. They should already know what to do. And if that's the case, where's the room for innovation? creative thinking? Is it any wonder this country is stuck in a rut?

[liberalmike27]

27. And Yet We Still Have H1B Visas

That's another thing, plenty of engineers, but we're hiring ones imported from India, or China, for a third of the price.

That was a good (long) article on a previous post. Why do the young or old get another degree, when there are no jobs in the field, or the companies are going to hire a foreign person to fill it for about the money a burger manager makes. (not that there is anything wrong with that, I've done it)

If we don't bring manufacturing back, with tariffs, it's pointless to be educated except for the conversation being better.

[Broderick]

10. education

is too expensive.

[SOS]

58. Exactly

The system wants us to incur permanent debt (owed to banks) in exchange for a non-existent job.
No thanks.

[newtothegame]

11. One of the challenges is that so many kids these days are getting degrees in history, philosophy...

English lit, etc. We ARE educated, but we're getting educated on our hobbies/interests, for which today's world has very few jobs.

Are these all worthy subjects for study? Yes.
In a perfect world, would there be plenty of well-paying jobs for folks with these majors? Yes.
Do we live in that perfect world? Unfortunately, no.

Too many kids are coming out of school with degrees that, in terms of paying your bills, putting gas in your car and putting food on your table, are worthless. Even worse, they're drowning in student debt afterward, AND they are shut out of one of the best options they have, post-secondary teaching, because of the old crotchety professors who don't want the young professors moving into their territory and putting pressure on them.

Unfortunately alot of people will deny this because they don't WANT this to be the case with these degrees. They'll talk about how important English lit is; how important it is that we learn from history; that philosophy can save the world. And I agree, but those nice thoughts don't feed these kids. Their Starbucks jobs do.

[Leftist Agitator]

13. Speaking as someone with a Master's in History...

I completely agree. In fact, I am currently enrolled in an MBA program, because there is no work to be had even with a graduate degree in the Humanities.

[newtothegame]

19. Hi friend. I graduated with a BA in history, started grad work in it, then wised up and entered...

an MBA program for the same reasons. I'm now in healthcare, very happy and fulfilled, and likely LIGHT YEARS ahead both financially and professionally then where I'd be if I had pursued History any further.

From what I know of my classmates, a $100k Master degree in History gets you a $23k job running your local historical society.

[eilen]

16. I think that one of the reasons we don't have so many

science majors is because of the lack of philosophical education. Learning how to think is highly underrated.

English majors are given short shrift as it is important to know how to read and understand written information and how to communicate.

Those are two very integral fields of study that I don't believe should be discounted.

My dh is an electrician working on a nuclear facility. He has one of your so call "worthless" degrees in English. His team is one of the only ones that can manage to read and figure out a work package or "book", organize the work and complete it mostly d/t him coaching his foreman.

Getting an education is the purpose of university. You want job training? Get an apprenticeship. Most employers just wanted educated employees so would hire the graduating seniors of a given university that seemed to be motivated. They learned the industry specific skills on the job. How does a person learn to be a sales manager for a company like Reliance Electric? First, they may want someone with proven track record in sales because charismatic persuasion is a transferable skill. Then they send their talented new employee to training to learn about their product.

[newtothegame]

20. It's cute that you think an English degree isn't worthless, but the job market says otherwise.

That's the problem with this issue. Because you don't THINK English degrees are worthless, you won't admit that for the most part, today's job market says they are, and thus you encourage kids to pursue these dead ends.

As I said, I myself, as did many friends, studied in the liberal arts. And it was great. I just wish those studies would have been in my free time from library books, instead of spending $100k to get a degree in it.

[Iris]

37. Really? I've been employed ever since I graduated. And never once in a Starbucks.

And, honestly, I think most English majors could excel in a lot of fields. Recent studies indicate employers are complaining that college grads form business programs don't have many skills. I've gone a long way just based on my ability to synthesize and present information. It's not something people are learning in business schools these days.

[newtothegame]

42. Again, I understand your situation. But it doesn't speak for the vast majority of graduates.

You're saying that because you have a job that the tens of thousands of currently unemployed liberal arts majors, and the tens of thousands that will graduate this spring and every spring, have nothing to worry about? :shrug: What kind of logic is that?

[Iris]

46. All of my friends that I went to college with are employed.

In fact, when we were graduating, I remember being incredulous that one of my friend's professors was quite blase about the fact that we would all eventually have jobs.

Tens of thousands you say? Those numbers don't add up. The unemployment rate for college graduates as a whole is less than 5% even in this economy.

[dmallind]

51. Where are these data to be found

You seem very sure that graduates in X have higher unemployment than graduates in Y. How do you know?

[girl gone mad]

18. It's a myth that there are ample jobs for graduates in science and math.

I'll re-post my link from upthread.

Give it a read, it may be news to you. We do not have a shortage of scientists and engineers. We have a glut of people with degrees in these fields, too.

http://www.miller-mccune.com/science/the-real-science-gap-16191

It's also my understanding that we are graduating too many lawyers and MBAs.

At some point we need to accept that the problem is structural to our economic system. It isn't simply a matter of people making poor choices about their field of study, though this notion has been a reliable red herring for as long as I can remember.

[newtothegame]

22. It's not a red herring to tell kids to get degrees in something that will get them a job.

I agree that there's a systemic issue behind this. And fixing that will fix the job market.

But until we fix that, students will be looking for jobs in THIS market. We're doing them a disservice by ignoring field of study because it's a "red herring."

[liberalmike27]

31. Good Link Crazy Girl

Very long, I read a chunk of it, going back later for more!

[Kievan Rus]

26. Agreed. IMHO, it's better to not go to college at all than to go and major in liberal arts

Either way, you'll wind up working in a menial job. At the very least, behind door one, you'll have no student debt and four years seniority over those that choose door two and major in something completely useless.

[Iris]

38. I have never worked a menial job since graduating from college. If you don't want a degree, don't

get one. Colleges aren't designed to train people for the work force. They are to teach people to think and presumably, once you know how to think, you can figure out a how to make your way in the world.

If you want to learn a skill, go to technical college or trade school. Those mission of those schools is to train people for specific jobs.

[Kievan Rus]

41. Majors like business and economics translate into well-paying jobs. On the other hand...

majors like history and philosophy do not.

It is good to go to college for some majors, such as business. What I was saying is that it is better to no go to college at all than to major in something that isn't all that useful and will provide few if any jobs, such as a good deal of liberal arts degrees. Especially in this economy.

[Iris]

45. I'm sorry, I don't agree. Many people with liberal arts degrees work in businesses

My husband has a history degree and owns his own business. I have tons of friends with liberal arts degrees who work in Corporate America.

[liberalmike27]

49. Iris

You are aware you don't know all college graduate, aren't you? Because you seem to be unaware of it.

I might add, I suspect you're more connected, as well as your "tons of friends."

[makhno]

54. Degrees from top tier schools translate into well paying jobs

The specific major at the undergrad level is of little relevance to an employer recruiting for positions that do not require particular skills in math or the sciences. Past the hurdle of the first job, experience, rather than one's major, plays the principal role in hiring decisions.

That said, these days I would definitely question the wisdom of spending four years and untold amounts of money to get a college degree from anything but a top tier school. This time would be better spent learning a trade, which is what a BA in "business" or "communications" is anyway.

It's the same pretty much everywhere else in the world.

[Nikia]

44. Many non degreed adults find doors closed to them

Because they don't have degrees. So many people have degrees now that degrees are often required for many positions that did not require them in the past. In many companies, it is not possible to work yourself up in the company unless you have a college degree in something.

[Iris]

48. Exactly. Having a degree doesn't mean you'll start out in a corner office somewhere

but if you get in the door and opportunities become available, the degree can give you an advantage. Right now, our IT guy can't move up within the organization because he didn't finish his undergraduate degree.

[pitohui]

35. really what kids are these?

being from a tech background that's the folks i know, i haven't met anyone in decades who majored in philosophy, sounds suspiciously like 1969 to me...the folks i know who have never or only briefly worked in their fields had honors degrees in things like petroleum engineering and computer sciences

i don't know who this "we" is who is getting a degree in their "hobby," but some people think that finding and developing natural resources was an important thing to do, stupid us for thinking so, our studies aren't appreciated nor is our existence apparently if we are lumped in with somebody who got a degree in the important tourist sights of southern france-- actually, the restaurant and tourism degree (a real degree offered at university of new orleans, louisiana and i'm not kidding -- is of more value than a technical degree that might actually have discovered something

i know folks in the biological sciences who work for NOTHING, as in, discoverers of new species associated with lsu who have to give bird tours to tourists to put food in their mouths -- and i mean the discoverers of new species, not wankers masturbating to their philosophy degrees

you may think the problem is some losers because you know losers, i assure you, there is real and important science being done and degrees being earned by people who earn fuck-all in terms of money

don't get me started!!!

[Iris]

36. People with English degrees do not get a job in the field of "English"

they use their analytical and writing skills in all sorts of jobs. I have a BA in English lit and have worked in banking, publishing, and education.

In fact,the book "Academically Adrift" reports that although most college students don't seem to be gaining academically, "Students majoring in liberal arts fields see "significantly higher gains in critical thinking, complex reasoning, and writing skills over time than students in other fields of study." Students majoring in business, education, social work and communications showed the smallest gains. (The authors note that this could be more a reflection of more-demanding reading and writing assignments, on average, in the liberal arts courses than of the substance of the material.)"

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/01/18/study_finds_large_numbers_of_college_students_don_t_learn_much



(and I've never worked in a Starbucks. Or any restaurant for that matter)

[newtothegame]

43. Wow, seriously. If you're going to go on and on about your privileged life, you might be...

on the wrong message board. Seems to me you agree with the original article this post was AGAINST more than you do most of DU.

[Iris]

47. Wow. So I'm not welcome here because I've managed to keep myself employeed for over 15 years?

that's brilliant. I'm privileged because I've been smart enough to find and take opportunities where I can? I'll admit, there's some luck involved, but I've made sacrifices and worked hard. I guess the freepers are right and all liberals are poor and unemployed

[liberalmike27]

50. I think it's more

because you think your own little microcosm means everyone else here is full of it, Iris.

It's more your attitude than not being welcome because you are employed.

But you are like a lot of people, you think and judge everyone from your own self, if anyone else who majored in English isn't in your group, with a husband who owns a business, no matter what their own personal individual situation has been, it must've been something they've done. It couldn't be where they are, or who they know.

[newtothegame]

55. I have to agree with Mike...

Your posts seem to indicate that you believe your own little world translates right over the top of the rest of us, and it's just not true Iris.

[Tatiana]

59. It's your mistaken attitude that anyone with a degree will get a job.

That's simply not the case in this market. You're blessed to have a job. I had a degree in psychology. I can honestly say that degree was worthless. I didn't use any of the biology, calculus, western and non-western cultural information I had learned in my previous employment. Perhaps I used a bit of the personality psych, but not really. Went back to school, incurred additional debt when I was laid off and got a master's in education.

I was able to do that because I had a family and a husband willing to support me emotionally and, most of all, financially. For people who don't have that support, the current economy and jobs situation are nothing but a NIGHTMARE. I know many highly intelligent classmates who are underemployed at the moment... waitressing, grading exams for testing companies, holding multiple part-time jobs. This is not their fault. They went to school. They want to be gainfully employed; they have been hard workers. But when you are competing with 80-100 other applicants for a job, especially cheaper labor under 25 years old, you're at a disadvantage. If you are perceived to be overqualified, you are at a disadvantage.

[hfojvt]

12. a few statistics

in 1980, when I graduated from high school, only 66% of the population over the age of 25 had graduated from high school, only 16.2% had college degrees. Since 1993, the percentage of high school graduates has been over 80%. In 2009, 86.7% of people over age 25 in the US had graduated from High school and the percent wit college degrees has risen from 7.7% in 1960 to 29.5% in 2009. It would stand to reason that the percentage is much higher for the group between the ages of 25 and 40.

Now let's look at the top employers

#1 retail salesperson - 4.1 million - 3.86% of private employment
#2 cashier - 3.4 million - 3.13%
#3 cooks - 2.5 million - 2.34%
#4 wait staff - 2.3 million - 2.11%
#5 office clerks - 2.2 million - 2.06%
#6 customer service - 2.1 million - 1.96%
#7 RN's - 2.1 million - 1.96%
#8 material movers - 2.07 million - 1.91%
#9 stock clerks - 1.8 million - 1.68%
#10 bookkeeping and accounting - 1.57 million - 1.45%
#11 general managers - 1.56 million - 1.44%
#12 janitors - 1.5 million - 1.42%

taking out RN's, accountants, and managers, there's 9 of the top 12 requiring only a grade school education (for the most part) and about 20.5% of the private sector labor force in May 2009. Actually I don't see a lot of call for college in the top 30 list here.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/ocwag2.pdf

[lonestarnot]

23. before reading, I have never blamed the unemployed for their being unemployed, NOT EVER! AIG/BUSHIT

LER/BANKSTERS CORPORATE OUTSOURCERS. That's the greedy fuckers I blame. Now I will read your post.

[treestar]

28. That is difficult in that you have to have the government

arranging the economy to a certain degree.

Say you decide you are going to go and get a degree in geology as job prospects look good. Years later, they go down.

We've got to make retraining possible and cheaper is all I can think of. The economy now is not like the days where you could keep a job for life. Things change too fast now.

[frustrated_lefty]

53. Unemployed for 6 months so far....

with a Ph.D in Biomedical Sciences from UCSD. The last department I worked in has lost >50% of its faculty along with all of their post-docs, research associates, and lab techs. One of those faculty members recently blew his brains out, unable to see any other options. Another has left the field, and I've lost track of the associates and technicians who have left to find jobs outside of their chosen field of study. It's a lot of education to end up competing for jobs flipping a burger.

[eilen]

56. a PhD! wow.

I am impressed. I hope they aren't calling your field of study a hobby here like they are with philosophy and English. All teachers and scientists should be philosophers first. Philosophy is the parent branch of their particular fields.

I always thought that biomed was a safe place to go education and career wise.

Maybe if we didn't have to mortgage our entire lives to get an education, more people would get one.

[rrneck]

60. I have a masters degree.

But if you'll excuse me I have to replace the subfloor under leaky toilet in a mobile home.