If we have to wait until the set up the death camps.................

[socialist_n_TN]

before we can use Nazi comparisons, won't that be too late?

[FiveGoodMen]

1. It will, indeed.

Shame on those who would have us ignore real lessons from history because the bad guys might not like hearing about it.

[EstimatedProphet]

5. That's not what any of us are saying, and you know it

What we're saying is that the argument goes off track, so it quits being effective when you bring up Nazis. That's simply a statement of fact.

[socialist_n_TN]

10. So, if it looks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks.............

like a duck, we should call it a Republican?

[FiveGoodMen]

16. Which means, precisely, that the most striking object lesson

in the last century is off limits for discussion.

So, yes, that's exactly what you're saying.

[EstimatedProphet]

19. No one has said it is off-limits

What we are saying is that when you bring it up, you lose your own argument.

[FiveGoodMen]

21. Only with you.

[cali]

26. er, no. please see Cohen, Steve as an object lesson.

[EstimatedProphet]

28. No, pretty much with everyone

Look, I don't care whether you make Nazi comparisons or not. I'm simply stating the fact that when you do there are a lot of people who look at you like you're crazy and quit listening. If you don't care about that, knock yourself out.

[truth2power]

39. Then it's off-limits, isn't it? n/t

[EstimatedProphet]

50. No

It's just a poor strategy.

[truth2power]

61. Not a poor strategy. n/t

[truedelphi]

42. Whatever. The fact of the matter is that right now, poor people are the

New folks with gold stars on their torsos.

My entire County is shutting down. Doesn't seem to matter that we regained the White House - the eleven trillion and counting to the Banking Class and the Big Wall Street Head Honchos went out the back door of the Federal Reserve, with Geithner's approval, with none of it trickling down to Main Street means starvation for the rest of us.

I don't know what excuse will be used for us to be taken away. Or maybe the plan is not to take us away - when food and gas are so very expensive that we start dropping like flies, the only question for the government will be whether our bodies get wrapped in paper or plastic.

(If you are at all familiar with the final weeks of WWII in Nazi held Nederlands - the fact is people like there would be walking down the street and just keel over from starvation.

That is one scenario, and every time I look at yet another block of shuttered buildings in what was a vibrant area of the world just four years ago, I shudder to think about the Near Future.)

[cali]

2. you can use Nazi comparisons to your heart's content.

No one is stopping you. You won't be dragged out of your bed in the middle of the night by boys with black truncheons.

Have at it. Shockingly, not everyone will agree with your comparison or think it's a great way to address an issue.

[socialist_n_TN]

4. OK GREAT! Thanks! What about a politician?

Maybe a Jewish politician? Does he have to wait til they set up the death camps before making a Nazi comparison? Even if the comparison is apt?

[cali]

12. Again, he or she is free to use as many Nazi comparisons as they wish

He or she will not be dragged from bed and beaten either.

[Caretha]

66. You promise?

[Arctic Dave]

6. These guys may have a different opinion then you.

[golddigger]

11. "You won't be dragged out of your bed in the middle of the night

by boys with black truncheons."

Your living in a dream world if you think it could never happen again.

[cali]

14. Of course I never said it couldn't happen again, but thanks for that straw man

I have far too much knowledge of history and far too dim a view of human nature to believe that it can't happen again. Do I think we're on the verge of it happening here? Not really.

[Caretha]

67. Your understanding

comprehension, and study of history is severly lacking. You need to read about another 1000 books. Then I'll listen to you.

[socialist_n_TN]

17. And THAT is what I mean.............

Your last sentence says it all. These people apparently think that it could never happen again OR that it could never happen in THIS country EVEN THOUGH ONE PARTY IS GOING DOWN THE EXACT SAME ROAD AS THE NAZIS WENT DOWN! We shouldn't call them on their tactics because they haven't set up death camps or dragged socialists out of bed in the middle of the night and beat them with sticks, or instigated Kristalnacht, or set up a Congressional fire, or instituted a one party dictatorship.

Guess what folks? I'd rather talk about it NOW while I still can BECAUSE IF THESE THINGS HAPPEN IT WILL BE TOO LATE!

[cali]

29. lol. oh the drama. As I explicitly stated, of course it can happen again

and no, the republicans aren't, as of yet, going down the "exact same road as Nazis went down".

Talk hysterically all you wish. It hardly helps matters but charge ahead, fred.

[socialist_n_TN]

31. So Mr History. WHAT event or series of events............

will be required for you to begin to be concerned that it might happen again? As I said above, I'm honestly curious as to what to look out for because the FIRST people the Nazis went after were the Communists and socialists. Or would THAT be your signal? I'll need something a little ahead of that.

[cali]

41. the passing of federal laws

such as say, a law that prohibits an illegal immigrant having a lawyer; laws akin to the Nuremberg Laws, which were btw, introduced in 1935- quite early in the Nazi Regime.

[socialist_n_TN]

47. So the Patriot Act wasn't enough for you?

nm

[cali]

51. nope. Don't get me wrong, I think the Patriot Act is alarming and should

be repealed, but no, it's not the Nuremberg Laws.

[socialist_n_TN]

54. And as we type, ANOTHER marker is crossed.........

First they isolate you........

[socialist_n_TN]

55. So don't you think that the actual enacting of LAWS............

wouldn't be too late?

[cali]

58. there's invariably some period between the time a law is proposed and

voted on.

[socialist_n_TN]

60. So if those types of laws are PROPOSED...........

then the Nazi analogies would be appropriate? Just trying to get a feel for what's the correct placement for Nazi analogies from you. Although I have a feeling by that time it will be a done deal.

Sorry though. I'd rather fight it WAY before it gets to that point.

[Caretha]

68. Here is a clue

If you think that the "Republican voter" is aware of history, or not voting themselves down the path and the country with it, to Corporatism, and Fascism and taking the country and citizenry with them, then you need to get down dog dirty and read some history.

[bobbolink]

43. Being mocked is a step in this direction. Most oppression and violence start with words....

humiliation, ridicule, etc. Weaken the person so they aren't as likely to press back.

That has always been the case with domestic abuse, it is the case with poor people vs. affluent, and is common with other forms of oppression and abuse... and is quite visible here on DU.

[StarsInHerHair]

44. BUT-they HAVE dragged out people suspcted of growing pot IN THE MIDDLE

OF THE NIGHT. Baby steps, I know you get it, but I'm putting this in so hopefully they will get it.

[haele]

18. But it will be different next time, so the comparison isn't the same.

The beat down will be electronic, or financial, or just a different way of saying "they aren't human enough to be treated as well as the family pet" and use the excuse "little nits grow into giant ticks" to ensure children of the group out of power never get a chance for a life outside of menial jobs, drug addiction, or jail.

It's happened before, it's just that the methods and scale are different each time.

Haele

[bobbolink]

45. "it's just that the methods and scale are different each time." Exactly. It follows the same path.

The methods vary.

[Caretha]

65. Maybe he won't

be dragged out of his bed by "black truncheons", but someone else also less deserving might. When are you going to stand up for what's right? It seems you are always just standing up for what's fucking fucked up?

[Zywiec]

3. How much longer will unrec be available? n/t

[socialist_n_TN]

25. Well since this is a discussion board..........

you could discuss. When WILL it be appropriate to use Nazi comparisons? Do we have to see the Swastika?

[LostInAnomie]

7. Man, I'm going to miss unrec.

[socialist_n_TN]

30. I never used the unrec feature, I figure on a discussion.............

board, we'd discuss. Novel concept I know. So, when will a Nazi comparison be appropriate? Before or after the American version of Kristalnacht?

I'm HONESTLY curious about this because I've got a dog in this hunt. The FIRST people the Nazis went after were the Communists and socialists. I doubt that the modern day Republicans would be any different.

[LostInAnomie]

38. There have always beem liars and propagandists.

Just as there have always been groups looking to amass wealth and power. So, why pick the Nazis to make the comparison with?

Sure there are connections to be made, but you could make the same connections to almost any other RW group throughout history. So, why not link to those other groups?

I'll tell you why. Because there is no other words so loaded or politically charged as "Nazi" or "Hitler". The people that toss those words out so easily do so for no other reason than to elicit a reaction. Not because the comparison is accurate, not because there is no better parallel, or because they have given it any real thought. They do it because it's an easy way to demonize your opponent and scare people.

It's facile, cynical, and childish.

[socialist_n_TN]

46. Oh wow actual discussion. Thanks! Now.............

you could very well be right about a lot of those points, BUT the reason that you DO use them is because THEY ARE SO RECOGNIZABLE TO THE AVERAGE PERSON. That's the same reason Beck does it. People respond to this negative image, usually negatively BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT.

In my OP, I was probably overly dramatic, but I WAS trying to catch people's attention because I AM honestly curious as to AT WHAT POINT Nazi comparisons WOULD be appropriate. And just saying that "they're not there yet" is just kicking the can. What would cause YOU personally to believe that the American RW is following a Nazilike agenda?

[StarsInHerHair]

48. so there is NEVER a time for a sober & realist comparison EVER ALLOWED

so you have an absolute there. It is NEVER ok to use Nazis............

[leftstreet]

8. If we have to wait til we see a swastika before we recognize atrocities

:shrug:

[Raksha]

9. Yes. K & R

[Motown_Johnny]

13. you can do it while they are setting up the death camps

you don't need to wait until they are finished

[socialist_n_TN]

22. If it wasn't such a SERIOUS subject.........

that would deserve a LOL. Yeah, I guess so, but I actually think that might be a little too late also.

[Hannah Bell]

32. there are already lots of places standing that are quite suitable for death camps;

prisons, immigrant detention centers, military facilities, etc.

[BOG PERSON]

15. n/m

[gateley]

20. I bet we never thought we'd see the day when our Justice Dept was going after Facebook

members just because they supported an organization devoted to exposing government secrets.

I'm with you on this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Oh some of us have predicted this... it is the closing of an open society

and this is nothing... it will get MUCH WORST...

I have been screaming this from the rooftops for years now... ever since the Enabling Act... err USPA, was passed. Unlike my congresscritters I actually bothered to read it.

[gateley]

33. When you predicted this years ago I bet you were handed one of these:

:tinfoilhat:

Incrementally we're marching down that road. If we stop an look back to how it was 50 years ago, it's a different country. Granted, times have changed, the world didn't hate us then (thank you Cheney and Rumsfeld), we didn't have people (Republicans) dividing our country with hate and fear, we didn't have access to the internets to learn how to build bombs, etc. I'm sure the powers that be have always spied on us, from Hoover on, but this is so blatant. Our country coming out and saying freedom of speech is alive and well as long as it's what they want us to hear. :cry:

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. I got a collection of those

Sometimes a duck is a duck...

[socialist_n_TN]

35. Ah nadin, but we can't CALL it a duck............

It might hurt the duck's feelings. Or something.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. I know something about beakings

and scared birds... and that is exactly what the GOP (and all those getting panties in wad) remind me off... a very scared bird... beaking for dear life. What you are seeing there is FEAR, that perhaps we are not that exceptional after all.

[socialist_n_TN]

40. You may be right. It's pretty tough to face............

some things. Of course the cynical among us would see it as an organized counter from the other side in an effort to hide the agenda. Good think that I'm not cynical. :)

[gateley]

53. Yep. nt

[Caretha]

70. Nad

you probably don't get many kudos, but thank you for being the "canary in the coal mine".

So many people, those on DU and the majority have never read or understood how to interpet history. It they can't understand where we have been, they have no ability to understand where we are going.

[Caretha]

69. gateley

your post says it all. Unfortunately, it will ignored by those who have their heads up their asses, and think if they deny it, it will make it not so.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Santayana said it best

and until we stop getting cooties, or panties in a wad...

but yes, pretty much... we will have to wait not until the camps, but AFTER the camps are finally dismantled, and the survivors can try to rebuild from the horrors. At that moment, perhaps, somebody will be able to compare this to the Nazis... not a second before.

[VioletLake]

24. Like Nazis?

Nonsense. They're just good ole American boys with "eliminationist fantasies".

http://www.thenation.com/article/157900/glenn-beck-targets-frances-fox-piven

Edited to add link.

[Marnie]

36. Yes

[saras]

49. It's already too late

The really annoying thing is when it's not just the specific behavior that's similar, but the ideology (with the possible exception of blaming the Jews, which doesn't magically fix Nazi-ism if you remove it, contrary to the opinions of many American businessmen at the time), and the historical connection.

If your goal is a fascist state with a dumbed-down, regimented populace, a permanent war economy, widespread corporate/government corruption, legal torture, top-down control of the media, and a systematic organization spying on ordinary citizens, then Nazi comparisons are completely warranted. Death camps, or antiSemitism, or swastikas, are no more required components than '1937-1945' is a required component.

[cali]

52. sorry, but death camps and concentration camps were an integral part of the Nazi

regime.

And there's something really annoying about people in their comfy houses, sitting at their computers, saying anything wish, comparing themselves to dissidents in Nazi Germany. It's self-indulgent to the nth degree.

And no, for the thousandth time, I am not saying it couldn't happen.

[U4ikLefty]

56. sorry, ideology & propaganda was an integral part of the Nazi regime first.

The gas chambers came after it was too late.

Ignore the Canary in the Coal Mine at your own risk.

[socialist_n_TN]

57. And that's why it needs to be talked about..............

BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE! I'd rather talk about it now. That's been my point all along.

[U4ikLefty]

63. I agree. nt

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[U4ikLefty]

62. WTF are you talking about? I never said such a thing

You are waaaay out of line here.

[Caretha]

71. Cali

quit putting a disqualifier up...."I am not saying it couldn't happen". It will not protect you to bury your head. Step outside of your box for just a moment....put together all those warning signs I know you are seeing and trying to deny.

I have no other advice than to say...please take my word for it, and just do it.

[Swamp Rat]

64. I amused by how it upsets Godwin's Cyberarmy,

as well as how they use it to automatically 'win' an argument. :D